Dare to have a meaning

[Captain Zen]

Dear fellow naked friends, I have been asked not to mention the subject of Judaism and Zionism by a moderator. However, I still want to know if I am alone in my ideas about these very strange political double standards concerning terrorism, atomic weaponry, landgrabbing, separation wall and racism related to the phenomena of "Israel".
As the header of "open conversation" says: Talk about anything: Cars, politics, current events, etc. I wish to proceed:

From http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10431.htm

title:
Who dares to criticise Israel
excerpts:
I am a Jew who doesn't believe in the concept of a Jewish state, but then, I also don't believe in the idea of an Islamic or Christian entity either. There is surely room for a non-Zionist Jew to write about the true cost of Zionism both on Israel and the Diaspora.

The difficulty in even raising questions related to Israel proves that serious debate is ever-more essential. The world is slowing waking up to the true reality in Israel and Palestine and Australians are joining the chorus of disapproval.

[Captain Zen]

Dear fellow naked friends, I have been asked not to mention the subject of Judaism and Zionism by a moderator. However, I still want to know if I am alone in my ideas about these very strange political double standards concerning terrorism, atomic weaponry, landgrabbing, separation wall and racism related to the phenomena of "Israel".
As the header of "open conversation" says: Talk about anything: Cars, politics, current events, etc. I wish to proceed:

From http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10431.htm

title:
Who dares to criticise Israel
excerpts:
I am a Jew who doesn't believe in the concept of a Jewish state, but then, I also don't believe in the idea of an Islamic or Christian entity either. There is surely room for a non-Zionist Jew to write about the true cost of Zionism both on Israel and the Diaspora.

The difficulty in even raising questions related to Israel proves that serious debate is ever-more essential. The world is slowing waking up to the true reality in Israel and Palestine and Australians are joining the chorus of disapproval.

[jon71]

Part of the problem is that anti-semites often claim to be criticizing zionism as a form of zealotry when in fact they hate anyone and anything that is Jewish. If you are sincere Zen you are catching flak for the hateful scam of others. It's a ploy that most people have seen often.

[Captain Zen]

I surely do not hate everything Jewish, I was many times in Israel, invited to ceremonies and rituals. The traditional music moves my soul, and in past lives I must have been deeply involved in Judaism. However, what happens with the government of Israel, that what is labeled "Zionism", is quiet another cup of tea.
And here is where I do have a meaning. I stand with the Jews against Zionism. http://www.nkusa.org/
And I dare to say it. And explain why. If anyone has flak for me because, let's get it on, as Bush would say.

[jon71]

Right Jason. Isreal belongs to Israel. There is no such thing as Palestine. That was a failed attempt at "squatting" on the part of the so-called Palestinians.

[Jason Lee]

The World Book Encyclopedia:

Zionism is a movement aimed at establishing a national Jewish state in Palestine, the ancient Jewish homeland.

active Zionism began in the 1800's and led to the establishment of Israel in 1948.

Zionism now supports various projects in Israel and acts as a cultural bridge between Israel and Jews in other countries.

Zionists work to revive the national Jewish language and culture, and to establish the political and social institutions needed to re-create national Jewish life.

Zion is the hebrew poetic name for Palestine.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Zion is the hebrew poetic name for Palestine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A rose is a rose, by any name.
Palestine with the people who lived there may be called different by the poetic Hebrews, it is always Palestine.
The people who lived in Zion (=Palestine) before the Jewish people from Europe and other countries came, did not have a right to be there?
By whom's authority do/did they have no rights? By the Brits who had taken it from the Turks, who had taken it from the Persians, who had taken it from whom exactly...?
The power of the gun decided/s who is right in this case as was/is the case with the very US of A, where the remaining few original inhabitants who survived, have been rounded up and put in "Reservations".
I do not agree to either case of 'might is right' and the suffering it brings for those who are conquered, displaced and discriminated against and treated as third class people.
My teachers Jesus and Gautame and Osho showed me to have the courage defend the defenseless, to show compassion for those at the receiving end of the gun.
Please check this site to get better informed about Judaism and Zionism...........
http://www.nkusa.org/

[PascoDoug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Zen:
Dear fellow naked friends, I have been asked not to mention the subject of Judaism and Zionism by a moderator. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Several, actually.

And yet, here you are once again talking about that very subject. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Baron Lake]

Jews? Palestinians? Forget about it. Just give it back to the Greeks (or Persians...Egyptians...Mennonites...).
b.l.
oops, forgot the Romans. (What ever happened to those guys anyway?)

[shãybare]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PascoDoug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Zen:
Dear fellow naked friends, I have been asked not to mention the subject of Judaism and Zionism by a moderator. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually several..

And yet, here you are once again talking about that very subject. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
What about Christianity? Buddism? Paganism? or anyother religious belief or philosophy? I do not understand why Judaism and Zionism are not appropriate subjects to be discussed.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baron Lake:
...
oops, forgot the Romans. (What ever happened to those guys anyway?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they went back to Rome.

[shãybare]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baron Lake:
...
oops, forgot the Romans. (What ever happened to those guys anyway?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they went back to Rome. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Maybe Romania?

[jon71]

Apparently world book Encyclopedia got it wrong, or at least was sloppy in it's choice of words. There is no such thing as palestine.

[Captain Zen]

You say that to get me to show this, you clever provoker!
http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/0_pal_facts_MAPS.htm
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story584.html
http://www.bibleplaces.com/surveywesternpalestinemaps.htm

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Apparently world book Encyclopedia got it wrong, or at least was sloppy in it's choice of words. There is no such thing as palestine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How about this?

Palestine -- Britannica Concise Encyclopedia (http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9374416?query=palestine&ct=)

Is it possible that you might be wrong?

[Qikdraw]

From what I understand the majority of Isrealis wanted the settlements gone, they didn't think Isreal should be doing that. Its only a small minority of Isrealis, guided by the jerk Sharon, that is causing a lot of problems. Sure the Palestinians have their fair share of blame too, but the street goes both ways.

From things I have read most Palestinians and Isrealis just want to be left alone to go to work and support and raise their families.

Palestine may not be real to some, but in fact it is there, and its a reality that cannot be ignored. Ignoring it just creates more problems for Isreal and the people living there.

Qikdraw

[Jason Lee]

1167 Encyclopædia Britannica articles, from the full 32 volume encyclopedia
> Palestine
area of the eastern Mediterranean region, comprising parts of modern Israel and the Palestinian territories of the Gaza Strip (along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea) and the West Bank (the area west of the Jordan River).
> Palestine Liberation Organization
umbrella political organization claiming to represent the world's estimated eight million Palestinians—those Arabs, and their descendants, who lived in mandated Palestine before the creation there of the State of Israel in 1948. It was formed in 1964 to centralize the leadership of various Palestinian groups that previously had operated as clandestine resistance ...
> Theodosius of Palestine, Saint
a principal proponent of orthodoxy in the Christological controversy (a dispute centring on the nature and person of Christ) and one of the fathers of Palestinian monasticism.
> Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine
one of several organizations associated with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO); it engaged in acts of terrorism in the 1970s and '80s and originally maintained a Marxist-Leninist orientation, believing the peasants and the working classes should be educated in socialism in order to bring about a democratic state of Jews and Arabs free of Zionism and imperialism.
> Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
organization providing an institutional framework for militant organizations associated with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), notable for its Marxist-Leninist ideology and its hijacking of a number of aircraft between 1968 and 1974.

158 Student Encyclopedia Britannica articles, specially written for elementary and high school students
Palestine
Since ancient times, the region between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea has commanded a significance far greater than its size. Strategically located at the joining of Africa and Southwest Asia, it was fought over and ruled in succession by nearly all the great powers of the Middle East. It was part of the kingdom of Israel in biblical times. The name of the ...

Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)
When the state of Israel was established in 1948, nearby Arab states immediately waged war against the new nation. As a result, a severe refugee problem was created among the Palestinians—the Arabs who had been living in and near the territories that were taken over by Israel. Many of these millions of people were displaced to several Arab states in the Middle East, while ...

The Partitioning of Palestine
from the Arab-Israeli wars article
A major cause of the wars was the conflicting claims of the Jews and Arabs to Palestine, a region of the Middle East that includes the Holy Land sacred in Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. After World War I, the United Kingdom gained control of Palestine, and from 1923 to 1948 it governed the region under a League of Nations mandate. Most of the area's residents were ...

History
from the Israel article
The modern State of Israel was formed in 1948 from part of Palestine, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people and a region sacred to Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. In biblical times the area was controlled by the kingdoms of Israel, Judah, and Judea. After the 1st century AD, it was held successively by virtually every power of the Middle East. Palestine fell ...

The Literature
from the Hebrew literature article
The first modern writers of Hebrew were of European origin, native to such areas as Austria-Hungary, Russia, Poland, and Lithuania. They were among the first people to join the resettlement in Palestine. More recent writers are a mixture of immigrants and native-born Israelis.

31 web sites, chosen by Britannica editors for our Internet Guide
> Question of Palestine
Extensive resources provided by United Nations covering the meetings, reports, and resolutions of General Assembly and Security Council on the inalienable rights of Palestinian people. Includes agreements and related documents on the peace process and information on the socioeconomic situation in Palestine along with details on the condition of refugees.

> Center for Palestine Research and Studies
"Nablus, Palestine-based institute on policy research and strategy planning. Includes details on events and contains information on areas of scholarship like Palestinian-Arab relations and policy settlement process. Also features articles by researchers and the journal Al-Siyasah al-Filastinniyya."

> Center for Middle Eastern Studies - Palestine
University of Texas at Austin
Directory of links concerning Palestine, from the University of Texas Middle East Network Information Center. Covers general country material, news and current affairs, business, education, and travel.

> Israel and Palestine
Global Policy Forum
Collection of news articles on the UN peacekeeping efforts in this region of the Middle East, offered by the Global Policy Forum in New York, U.S. Links to an archive of resolutions, documents, and reports from the United Nations.

> Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations
Official site of the representation to this world organization. Profiles the region's history and geography and includes press releases, papers, and text of the memoranda issued by the delegation. Provides information about Palestinian Liberation Organiza

> Christianity: Its Rise in Palestine(1:51)
The appearance of Christ in Palestine led to the end of the ancient religions.

> Israel: U.N. Partition( 00:48)
In Jerusalem, problems began as soon as the United Nations passed its resolution on the Partition of Palestine.

[Jason Lee]

biblical Canaan extends east to the Jordan River, north to the border between Israel and Lebanon, west to the Mediterranean, and south to the Negev desert, reaching the Gulf of Aqaba. The political status and geographic area designated by the term have changed considerably over the course of three millennia. The eastern boundary has been particularly fluid, often understood as lying east of the Jordan and extending at times to the edge of the Arabian Desert. A land of sharp contrasts, Palestine includes the Dead Sea, the lowest natural point of elevation on Earth, and mountain peaks higher than 2,000 ft (610 m) above sea level. In the 20th and 21st centuries it has been the object of conflicting claims by Jewish and Arab national movements. The region is sacred to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Settled since early prehistoric times, mainly by Semitic groups, it was occupied in biblical times by the kingdoms of Israel, Judah, and Judaea. It was subsequently held by virtually every power of the Middle East, including the Assyrians, Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Crusaders, and Ottomans. It was governed by Britain under a League of Nations mandate from the end of World War I (1914–18) until 1948, when the State of Israel was proclaimed. Armies from Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and Iraq attacked the next day. They were defeated by the Israeli army.

[Captain Zen]

So now that most of us have accepted the fact that indeed there was once a place called Palestine , we can let that rest.
Now something else.
First and foremost: I am not anti semitic, anti moslemitic or anti christanitic, or anti hinduianitic, or anti lunatic, I am anti-all-organised-religion.
In order to (scientifically/intelligently) research the reason for and find the solution to this mystery I have this question a long long time, and the question is:
WHY have the Jews through time memorial been prosecuted, hated, put in getthos, have been subjected to progroms, even holocausts?
Why?
I have a pretty good plausible idea why, but I like first to hear from you.
What could it be that makes (some/many) non-Jews be so unbelievable nasty towards (some/many) Jews?
What do you think is behind the century long problem between Jews and the rest of the people?
It must be something, something more than the "racist" problem between blacks and whites or between the "religious" problems between Lutherians and Baptists.
This is not against Judaism, I ask this in order to find a solution to explain/solve this problem.

[Captain Zen]

on the "Liberty Forum" http://www.libertyforum.org/wwwthreads.php?Cat= I found very much, for you all to explore, but also this, http://compuserb.com/nwo101c.htm but I think it is just a symptom of the reason why the Jewish people have attracted so much flak. The symptom is not the reason. An headache may be supressed by an advil, the reason for the headache is not cured by that advil.
A very good description of the politics in the Middle East by the prominent Jewish professor Katz: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/britainfrance.html
Still my question remains: WHY are the Jews still and have always been under pressure???

[jon71]

Because they are GOD's chosen people. They have a covenant and those who hate GOD will hate the Jewish people. A prime example of an anti-Christ would be Hitler.

[Captain Zen]

Because they are GOD's chosen people. They have a covenant and those who hate GOD will hate the Jewish people. A prime example of an anti-Christ would be Hitler.

Good try Jon, but that is not exactly so. Jews hate Jesus the Christ, and the Christians that follow Jesus' teachings, so I would say: try again...

[Qwertie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Zen:
Because they are GOD's chosen people. They have a covenant and those who hate GOD will hate the Jewish people. A prime example of an anti-Christ would be Hitler. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good try Jon, but that is not exactly so. Jews hate Jesus the Christ, and the Christians that follow Jesus' teachings, so I would say: try again... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Holy crap, what a couple of bigots we have here!

On the one hand we have jon71, a Palestinian-hater, and on the other we have "Jews hate Jesus", a clear suggestion of anti-semitism. This might get juicily ugly if only Zen and jon were equally matched, eloquence-wise.

I hereby decry both of you. Especially jon, who has made the extremeness of his view clear. At least Zen seems to want to understand the issues.

Whatever you may say about a Palestinian or Jewish STATE, there can be no denying that Palestinian and Jewish PEOPLE live in that region (if in doubt, check the map (http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/Distribution_of_population.htm)), and that SOMEBODY's gotta run the joint. And there's no denying that Israel took over formerly Palestinian-governed land by military force. Or maybe jon can stretch his imagination far enough to see it otherwise?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am a Jew who doesn't believe in the concept of a Jewish state, but then, I also don't believe in the idea of an Islamic or Christian entity either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's an odd thing to say. Does he also not believe in "the concept of" a Chinese or Japanese or French state? The Jews are a people, not just a religion. Some Jews are Zionist, some are orthodox, some are secular, some are Jon Stewart. All are welcome in Israel, aren't they?

Of course, there's something to be said about the separation of church and state. Personally, I wouldn't mind religion-based governments, except that they tend to be oppressive for some reason. So if this guy means to say he doesn't believe on having a state based on Jewish religion, I would agree with that.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WHY have the Jews through time memorial been prosecuted, hated, put in getthos, have been subjected to progroms, even holocausts?
Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good question, Zen, I've been wondering the same thing myself, but I can't suggest an answer. jon's answer that (basically) The Devil Makes Them Do It, is alluring when there are no other explanations, but the truth is probably more complicated. There is certainly a cultural element to it--anti-semitism passes from generation to generation just like other cultural traits such as those stupid French=coward jokes.

Anyway, I would like to see more discussion on Israel, because there's way too much ignorance about it. Especially among us Americans. The U.S. government is quite interested indeed in Israel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Visitors will learn that in precisely the same 1949-1996 time frame, the total of U.S. foreign aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $62,497,800,000--almost exactly the amount given to tiny Israel.

According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1995 the sub-Saharan countries had a combined population of 568 million. The $24,415,700,000 in foreign aid they had received by then amounted to $42.99 per sub-Saharan African.

Similarly, with a combined population of 486 million, all of the countries of Latin America and the Caribbean together had received $38,254,400,000. This amounted to $79 per person.

The per capita U.S. foreign aid to Israel's 5.8 million people during the same period was $10,775.48. This meant that for every dollar the U.S. spent on an African, it spent $250.65 on an Israeli, and for every dollar it spent on someone from the Western Hemisphere outside the United States, it spent $214 on an Israeli.

-- WRMEA (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The above tells us two things at once: (1) the U.S. government is really gung-ho on helping Israel despite (or due to?) its occupation of Palestine; (2) considering also that the ratio of military to foreign aid spending is 30 to 1, the U.S. government really doesn't give a damn about world poverty.

But back to point (1), if the government is so interested in Israel, shouldn't we be too?

[jon71]

I vehemently object to that. I have an extremely close friend who is Jewish and she does not hate JESUS. She doesn't view him as the son of GOD like I do but there is no hatred at all. I understand that most Jewish people view JESUS as a philosopher, teacher or rabbi. He is view as a good man, just not divine. I disagree, he is my GOD but I take no offense. While on the subject Muslums view JESUS as a prophet like Isiaah or Nehemiah, or Ezekiel. Same deal, I disagree with no offense taken. While I recognize that a Jewish person could be prejudiced just like a Christian, or a Muslum, or an atheist could be I have NEVER seen any indication of it being common place. I don't know where that notion came from. Are you refering to the lies throughout the centuries that anti-semites have told? Lies about being greedy or scheeming. That's all it is lies. I have no reason to believe those traits are more common that among any other people or faith. Those are steroetypes like all jocks (or blondes) are dumb, sorority girls are easy, guys with long hair or an earring are drug addicts or for that matter that nudists must be swingers or a perv of some form or fashion. We all know that those assumptions will at times be right (simple matter of mathematical probability) but that it is utter foolishness to go beyond that. I consider your claim Zen to be foolish at best and hate-mongering at worst.

[jon71]

I do not hate the so-called Palestinians I simply believe that Israel belongs to the Israelis. They tried to squat a country and failed. Simple matter. Let's put the shoe on the other foot. I'll give an example like what we did in Texas. Let's say a lot of Canadians move into Maine. After a while they say "hey, let's just make this part of Canada now". Would native born Americans in Maine blythely accept that? I don't think so. That's almost exactly what happened when the "palestinians" moved into Isreal. The biggest difference is that there was a premeditated motive to deny the Jewish people their ancestral homeland, to destroy a faith.

[Qwertie]

Oops. I decided to look up bigot (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot) and that definition wasn't quite what I meant. Perhaps the term "People with ethnic enmity issues" would be more appropriate.

[Qwertie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's almost exactly what happened when the "palestinians" moved into Isreal. The biggest difference is that there was a premeditated motive to deny the Jewish people their ancestral homeland, to destroy a faith. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh-huh, and how many hundred years ago did this happen?

How many living Palestinians are "premeditated squatters"? How many Jews have they displaced?

I don't know the ancient history of the land and I really don't care either. I think life is for the living. Keeping alive the disputes of past generations causes nothing but pain.

[jon71]

It began in the 40's and continues to this day. I want to say I'm not against a Palestinian state, I'm against them stealing someone else's country, or even part of someone else's country, to make it.

[Dolby]

Who is stealing who's country? Both Arab and Jew have lived in that land for centuries. The current map was largely imposed on the region by the old colonial powers and the US. So who has the more legitimate claim? Is (often subjective) ancient history a basis for setting boundaries?

As long as both sides insist that their's is the only legitimate claim to the land, there will never be peace there.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:

I understand that most Jewish people view JESUS as a philosopher, teacher or rabbi. He is view as a good man, just not divine.

I don't know where that notion came from. Are you refering to the lies throughout the centuries that anti-semites have told?

I consider your claim Zen to be foolish at best and hate-mongering at worst. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, o, dear Jon, please read after the short piece I pasted the rest from this Jewish teaching site: http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

Who Was Jesus?
The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
I'm not against a Palestinian state, I'm against them stealing someone else's country, or even part of someone else's country, to make it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then Jon, you should return the United States to the aboriginal Americans whose country was stolen by invading European colonialists by force of weapons and even biological (pest contaminated blankets) warfare.

Did you read this about the historic political [Zionist] construction of the Middle East, and how all these lines on the map (borders they call them) came about? http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/britainfrance.html
Still my question remains: WHY are the Jews still and have always been under pressure???
Is that the reward of being "chosen"?

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason Lee:
remember this post was started by Captain Zen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is that supposed to mean? Please elaborate...

[Dolby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Who Was Jesus?
The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I see why you were asked not to bring up this topic. You've moved it from a political discussion (Israel/Palestine) to a religious debate...and we all know how well those turn out! http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Qwertie:
The Jews are a people, not just a religion. Some Jews are Zionist, some are orthodox, some are secular, some are Jon Stewart. All are welcome in Israel, aren't they?

But back to point (1), if the government is so interested in Israel, shouldn't we be too? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not agree with "the Jews are a people". Jewishness is a religion. There are people who follow that religion and those who don't. The scamming creators of the whole rigmarole where clever enough to say that anybody born from a Jewish mother a Jew.
Anybody at the moment of birth does not have a religion (yet). That is always imposed on the innocent baby by those surrrounding it and there is no reason to believe that all those babies in later life agree to the belief that is forced on them.
I only respect those that at an adult age, as sentient human beings, have chosen with free will to follow(!) some or other religion.
All those who are indoctrinated from the earliest state of innocense and can not imagine that another point of view exists are victims of the clever religious scams and are to be pitied.

And yes, we should be interested to this phenomenon of Israel and watch carefully how the USA has developed it in a mighty nuclear military power to eventually conquer the whole Middle East.
And there is nothing you or I can do about it but watch.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dolby:


Now I see why you were asked not to bring up this topic. You've moved it from a political discussion (Israel/Palestine) to a religious debate...and we all know how well those turn out! http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong Dolby, I explained only that Judaism does not accept Jesus, for Jon to see. He did not agree with my statement that Jews do not like Jesus, well, the Jewish scriptures say different.
And in this problematic topic we can not seperate religion from politics as Israel is a secular religious state, claiming to be an exclusive Jewish State while Orthodox Jewery claims that it is against Israel...
"Zionism", is quiet another cup of tea.
I stand with Jews against Zionism. http://www.nkusa.org/

Still so far nobody has found the answer that I think I have to my question WHY have the Jews been and still are they under such enormous pressure from others?

[Sailor]

Captain Zen,

I am sure that you can find web sites and organizations to support almost any fringe element concept. The website that you quote from is quite "fringe" and does not represent the opinions of any Jew that I ever met. Considering that I grew up in an area of NJ with a large Jewish population, and I now live in the State of Israel, that's lots of Jews. In fact, in that web site they claim to be following the teachings of a certain rabbi, but they complain about being fought by members of that rabbi's organiztion. Even they can't figure out where these folks are coming from!

You can take any book, and find interpretations to support almost anything. That is what these people have done.


In your efforts to prove that all organized religion is evil, all that you are proving is that under the umbrellas of every religion, there are some people who come up with very unusual ideas. What you are showing has nothing to do with the vast majority.

By the way, there is historically a Palestine. The area now refered to as Gaza was colonized by "people from the sea" probably from Crete or the Greek islands. These were caled the Philistines. Goliath, from the David and Goliath story was a Philistine. The Philistines disappeared a number of years ago. The term was picked up again later in history, only so that the area could be disassociated from the Jews by the ruling power. Not because it had anything to do with those particular people. In most recent history, Gaza was part of Egypt before Israel won it in a war with Egypt, just as the West Bank was part of Jordan before Israel won it in a war with Jordon. If that had not happened, would you be suggesting that Jordan and Egypt give up those small pieces of land and make them into a country called Palestine?

[Trailscout]

Most Jews have lived as a persecuted minority in Europe and the middle East for nearly 2000 years, yet they have retained their allegience to their homeland and their cultural identity in a way few migratory peoples have.

However, there have been some Jews living in the Holy Land since the time of Joshua and Caleb.

It should not be surprising that many Jews wanted to flee the pogroms of Russia in the 19th Century and the Nazi death camps of the 20th Century and Neonazi and radical Islamist Europeans of the 21st Century.

So as millions of Jews now find themselves in the Promised Land, it should not be surprizing that they should want self-government. Britain was the occupying power at the time of Israeli Independence and one can make a better case for the creation of a Jewish state than the perpetuation of a British colony.

Under the circumstances, many or all of the Arabs in the state of Israel should be helped to find new homes in Jordan or Egypt.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sailor:
Captain Zen
What you are showing has nothing to do with the vast majority.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean to say that the Jewish religion does NOT denounce Jesus the Christ?

When then is a Jew a Jew? Can one be a Jew and accept Jesus as the Savior?
How can you call yourself a Jew when you do not follow the religious concepts, rituals and scriptures, or never go inside a Synagoge?
Just because the mother was Jewish, the child is too. Without ever practcising the religion that made this rule, the child still bears the label "JEW" forever?? And it can not be undone, because that is the catch 22, because the mother...
Excuse my French but I find that utterly crazy. For me this Jewishness is not valid, it makes no sense.

[jon71]

Jewish could refer to a person's religious faith, or it could refer to their ethnicity/heritage, or it could refer to both.

[Captain Zen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jon71:
Jewish could refer to a person's religious faith, or it could refer to their ethnicity/heritage, or it could refer to both. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ethnicity/heritage???
Do you want to say that there is a Jewish race? Who are recognisable by their looks?
With dark brown skin from sunny places deep south, to light brown skin from moderate places not so south, and pale pinkish skin from colder places up north.
Tell me, what ethnicity do these Jewish people have in common?
I was in Israel and saw that African "Jews" from Uganda are discriminated against by the white "Jews" from Russia, who are looked upon with contempt by Moroccan "Jews" and so on and so forth. Despite the vast amounts of money pumped in the country from the US taxpayers, the rat race is in full swing also there.

[Trailscout]

There is clinical evidence of Jewish ethnicity. To name just a couple of things: Tay Sachs, and sickle cell anemia occur in much higher frequencies among Ashkenazim than the European population at large. Phenotypically many of them resemble people from the eastern Mediterranean even though their ancestors have spent centuries in Europe.

That's not to ignore intermarriage, genetic drift and gentile converts.

Neither should one define who is a Jew in negative terms, i.e. those who reject Jesus as Messiah. Some Jews accept him, yet retain their Jewish ethnicity, cultural heritage and even a Jewish style of worship. It is ironic that one can make aliya and be an atheist yet reportedly the simple act of acknowledging that Yeshu'a is Messiah would prevent aliya to the same person.

[Captain Zen]

How long would it take for a Jew who denounces the religion (his Jewishness) to be unidentifiable as one?
I must have been a Jew in former lifes (as was revealed in "regression" sessions) and seem to carry (spiritual?)genes, in Israel nobody wanted to accept that I was not a Jew. My nose is big!!!
Again my question: Why are and were the Jewish people so often harrassed?
BTW, it is one reason why I do not want to be a Jew in this life, too much trouble in the past (and future no doubt).

[Trailscout]

A Jew may embrace his cultural heritage without accepting the tenets of Judaism, (which comes in several flavors by the way: Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Hassidic, Sephardic, Ethiopian).

The Nazis said you were a Jew if you had a Jewish grandparent, regardless of your personal culture or religion. There are plenty of people to this day who do not like any kind of Jew or part-Jew. There is plenty of hatred to go around, isn't there?

Why the hatred? Wherever they go they are different, outsiders, they don't quite fit in (so some say). They have been accused of being cunning merchants who lent money at usurous rates. Of course it is unfair to paint them all with one brush.

Here in the United States I have heard evil things said of Blacks, Southern whites, Yankees, Gypsies, Swedes, Irish, Scots, Native Americans, Indians, and too many groups to mention. Maybe they are all evil people, all of humanity totally despicable.

[Captain Zen]

Trailscout,
All these indications for the hatred of Jews are again merely symptoms. The underlying reason nobody has yet mentioned, or found.

Apart from the Nazi point of view which is utterly ridiculous, when is a Jew a Jew?
When he himself proclaims so, or when others, like his mother or the rabbi or the Nazi or president Sharon say so?
How can we ever get this straight?
My mother refused to say if there was Jewish ancestry in my family. Living through WWII she said: "Look what can happen in connection with religion, you get no religion from us your parents. When you are old enough to know what you want you can choose for yourself."
I will now give an idication for the deeper reason: "As is the god you worship, so are you."

[Trailscout]

Christians have persecuted Jews. Both claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
If Jews deserve persecution because their God is evil and they emulate this evil God, then so are Christians and are equally deserving of death, persecution and torture by anyone willing to commit the act.

Apparently anyone who had a Jewish grandparent, or anyone who ever said a kind word to a Jew should be killed too.

[Captain Zen]

I do not think Christians worship the same god as 'those' that worship the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...
'Those' do NOT recognise the New Testament, where Jesus came in and broke the ancient rules. Jesus brought the solution to the misery He saw coming.
The god from before Jesus was an angry god, who destroyed, of retaliation and punishment, a god to be feared. 'Those' who worship that god call themself godfearing people.
Jesus god was a new god, so different, loving, forgiving, innocent and did not punish. Jesus' god was not to be feared, but loved.
And there is the essential differnce between people. Those that have the fearfull god inside and those that have the loving god inside.
Although no Israeli soldier will admit to be full of fear, his armor and weaponry prove the opposite. His god wants him to have fear. So deep inside he must have fear, even if it is only for "his" g**d.
What one has one can give. A person who worships a god of fear has fear. To have fear is to give fear. And there begins the problem with those who have NO fear. Those who worship a loving god, have love. They have love to give. And they do not want to be scared. Those who bring fear are hated by those who do not want to be scared. And that, gentlemen, is my deduction from observations of the problem. Jesus saw it coming and to save His people he came with the new god of love. "Let go the fear and the hatre and the retaliation and the arrogance" said he. "Practise love and forgiveness."
But to unlearn the old ways was impossible for the established order and it had proven to hold out throughout centuries of hatred, prosecutions and all kind of other trouble.
So very unfortunately for those who can not let go the past and are caught in the web of the religious masters.
I wish you well and advice you to find the god of love and compassion.

To finish, a word of Alfred Lehmberg, from his essay:
http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/2005/09/rense-refrains.html


I want exposure to everything, reader. I want to make informed decisions upon those things still allowed to me to decide, myself. I suspect you do, too. Consider: Jehovah, Christ, and Mohammed (Father, son, and grandson... and all crawling with ufological close encounter references)... The three major Religions of our day all codified, outlined, and frame-worked in a pre-Copernican time, back to a day when the interested and educated individual "Knew" that the Earth was at the center of everything (...whatever that was...) and that the stars were little holes in the firmament to let the light of *God* shine through... UFOs were these holes blown around in the breath of He who is most high... Right.

[Sailor]

Captain Zen,

If you had done a more indepth study of Judaism, you would have found that the Jewish God is multifacited, for example mercy and compassion are prominant. As those who study the Kabbalah know (not Madonna style) the image of God is a very complex image encompassing almost ever male and female human characteristic. You seem to pick up something from one sect, and assume that it is all like that. Judaism has many many branches, and has lots of room for interpretaion.

In your opinion was the Spanish Inqusition conducted by love against the people who instilled fear?

[Captain Zen]

Thee Roman Catholic Inquisition was more like the Zionist politics against the Palistinians.

Now that I am [re]searching the subject a little deeper I came over the book by Henry Ford, the automobile maker of the 20ties: "The International Jew" which may be considered, no oimo is, anti-semitic, but is no doubt a source of facts and information. It can be read online [link removed]

[PascoDoug]

Captain Zen,

You have been warned many times about posting zionist and anti-jew related materials on this website. Not to mention other violations that I have let slide in the name of open mindedness. But enough is enough.

You are now banned from these forums until further notice.