kayka's vs Canoes decision making

[Wbn]

I'm in the marketing of getting a Canoe or Kayka for my water traveling adventures.
I would be interested in their advanages between both types, over the other...
I really have more time spent in canoes, at this point..
I'm also so heavy into Fly-fishing for trout on Streams & Rivers, Plus into Backpacking..
So, I need help on decision making..
Mostly for long term trips I will be using either one ( Canoe or Kayka ) .

I appreicate all Pro's & Con's & personal input..

Thank you,
From:
Wbn

[Wbn]

I'm in the marketing of getting a Canoe or Kayka for my water traveling adventures.
I would be interested in their advanages between both types, over the other...
I really have more time spent in canoes, at this point..
I'm also so heavy into Fly-fishing for trout on Streams & Rivers, Plus into Backpacking..
So, I need help on decision making..
Mostly for long term trips I will be using either one ( Canoe or Kayka ) .

I appreicate all Pro's & Con's & personal input..

Thank you,
From:
Wbn

[nacktman]

Get a canoe! More portability and easier to control.
Plus you can carry more junk as you go (if you want to).

And the BIGGIE (and not many people think of it) you can turn a canoe upside down and have a water proof canopy over your head when sleeping on over night trips or you can lay lengthwise and have a hard roof over ylur entire body.

[John P]

Kayak: Can handle waves and rough water better than a canoe, and doesn't catch the wind as badly. Note that there are different types, the sit-on-top for easy recreation, tiny ones for whitewater, long slim ones for long-distance travel and handling ocean waves.

Canoes: Can haul cargo or a passenger, you're out in the open (not much point in paddling a kayak nude, except the sit-on-top ones) easy to get in and out of, easy to move around in, can be carried overhead.

Paddling Bares Canoe Club:
http://www.canoeing.org

The trip I did last year:
http://www.sitemouse.com/users/swim_n_paddle/debs.html

[ncnudlady]

Go with the canoe it's easier to control in all types of water and is more versatile.

[Wbn]

Thanks everyone, And I appreicate you're help. again Thank You.

[MoCpl]

We have both kayak's and a canoe, I say go with the kayak, you can't carry as much gear but you can use it on more types of water. I have taken my kayak on water tht I would never take an open canoe on. I have also found that if you solo a kayak is easier to load and unload, portage and paddle back up stream.

[Bare in the Desert]

We are looking to buy kayaks. Were trying to decide between those or a canoe as well. I decided I like the independence of a the kayaks.

I wanna take a nude kayaking trip!

Would those how currently kayak recommend lessons or is this something you just need experience to gain the skill to master?

[sliver]

Wbn; I've tried both kayaks and canoes. Guess it depends on your age and sense of balance. In my younger days the kayak was sporty and a challenge to operate. I learned to manage a kayak faily well and "got wet" when I made a mistake. The canoe now serves me well because I can take overnight trips and pack all I need with less tip-over. Either way, I hope you have fun on the water. Rick

[Naturist Mark]

There are many types of kayaks, and some are just as stable as canoes. "Whitewater" kayaks are made to be very responsive - and thus unstable - but sea kayaks and 'lake' kayaks have good keels and track well. The cheapest kayaks made for novices are often the most stable - a Keowee is almost impossible to tip over. Some two seat kayaks can hold quite a bit of cargo - but no kayak is as versitile in cargo, crew arrangement and use as a canoe. For gentle down river traveling and camping trips a canoe is ideal. For extensive lake travel or ocean shore travel where you won't have currents in your favor, and may have to deal with wind and waves - a kayak may be the better choice.

-Mark

[Jason Heh]

Get a canoe!!! I have 2 open boats,

1-Mad River Outrage-Whitewater Canoe
1-Mad River Guide-Solo Tripping Canoe

I tried a kayak. I found it to be too confining.

Canoest vs Kayakers?

Canoist= 1/2 the paddle.....twice the paddler
Kayaker= skirts? lol

Open Boats Rule!!!!!

[Nudeinbama]

Bare in the desert,
As far as learning to use a Kayak, just get out out on a lake to start with and it will come to you,practice manuevering it around and before long you'll be ready for the moving water or the thrills of the ocean surf. Also, while on the lake,either roll the boat or get out of it in deep water and learn to get back in it, hard at first, but with practice ,its not that bad. I love my Kayak, I have a sit-on-top, but am also looking to get a sit in for earlier and later season paddleing.
Nudeinbama

[Darwin]

Go for the Canoe, take good care in finding the right one. Just as with Kayak there is a wide range depending on what you are planning. I have an old wooden still water canoe. Not to good for the river. Looking at getting a fiberglase for the river, not ready to spend the money on a Kevlar.

Cheers

[John P]

There are canoes in other materials than fiberglass or Kevlar, leaving out the noisy metal ones that stick to rocks. There's polyethylene and ABS to look at, both tough plastics that have some give to them, and can tolerate some heavy impacts and abrasion. Look at the Old Town Canoe website (assuming they have one, but doesn't everyone these days).

[Bare in the Desert]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nudeinbama:
Bare in the desert,
As far as learning to use a Kayak, just get out out on a lake to start with and it will come to you,practice manuevering it around and before long you'll be ready for the moving water or the thrills of the ocean surf. Also, while on the lake,either roll the boat or get out of it in deep water and learn to get back in it, hard at first, but with practice ,its not that bad. I love my Kayak, I have a sit-on-top, but am also looking to get a sit in for earlier and later season paddleing.
Nudeinbama </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the info Nudeinbama, I know a couple of local lakes that would be perfect to practice at.

I've started looking around and found this Pelican Pursuit 100 Sit-in Kayak. If anyone has any advise on what to get, Im all ears!

[Bare in the Desert]

We went out to the lake yesterday with my 6 yr old. She had a blast on the little boat we rented. Now all the memebers of the family officially like boating, we're gonna go boat shopping!

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bare in the Desert:
We went out to the lake yesterday with my 6 yr old. She had a blast on the little boat we rented. Now all the memebers of the family officially like boating, we're gonna go boat shopping! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you expect to be taking a six year old along, a canoe is likely a better choice - more room for kid and 'stuff'.

-Mark

[Shoobie]

tons more options with a canoe... you can park it in the middle of a lake and hang out... more social... fishing, etc... nice..

Kayaks are great in their own way.

The obvious answer is get both.

[Bare in the Desert]

Shoobie, that's actually not a bad idea. We were thinking of getting a canoe and maybe a couple of inflatable kayaks.

Anyone have any opinions of hard-shell vs. soft-shell kayaks? Not sure if its worth it.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyone have any opinions of hard-shell vs. soft-shell kayaks? Not sure if its worth it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hard shell kayaks are far superior to inflatables in terms of performance, but inflatables are great for down river travel, quality inflatables are very durable and many are just as capable in whitewater use, and they can be thrown in a trunk or back seat of a car - or even strapped to the back of your motorcycle.

Don't bother with the really cheap inflatables - they are little more than floats. Quality inflatables such as those from Advanced Elements (http://www.advancedelements.com/) or Sea Eagle (http://www.seaeagle.com/default.asp) are twin tube vessels really more akin to canoes - or very narrow catamarans. Not as much cargo space since the tubes take up most of the volume, but open and adaptable. More info here. (http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/inflatables.html)

-Mark

[Pops]

With a kayak, you can spend the entire day nude and no one will ever know unless they are right up next to you,
This goes even for a woman. Keep in mind that whether paddling a kayak or a canoe, wearing a PFD (life vest) should always be standard of procedure.
Even though these are "simple boats" accidents can and do happen.
Take some lessons, learn as much as possible about safety and rescue as you can and always practice and drill.
I'm fifty one and love my kayak. I'd like to get a canoe one day but I can take my kayak into tight shallow places that others wouldn't dare to.

[John P]

Oh boy, if there's enough water to float a duck, I am there, in my solo canoe. And as for nobody knowing you're nude in a kayak--well yeah. Because you're totally hidden, as if you were indoors! But what kind of nudity is that?

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'd like to get a canoe one day but I can take my kayak into tight shallow places that others wouldn't dare to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find a canoe is just as nimble in tight spaces as a kayak. A canoe doesn't draw any more than a kayak - sometimes less, and can go down narrow streams or through narrow passages in the reeds even better than a kayak since you are using vertical paddles rather than long horizontal oars (indeed, I will 'break down' my kayak oar into two parts and only use half for some very close quarters exploring). And in a canoe you can just turn around and go back out without having to paddle in reverse and look behind your back.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">With a kayak, you can spend the entire day nude and no one will ever know unless they are right up next to you,
This goes even for a woman. Keep in mind that whether paddling a kayak or a canoe, wearing a PFD </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Depends on the kayak, there are many open top kayaks and sit on top kayaks that do not offer any more concealment than a canoe, or even less. In a canoe you can find a nice spot in a public (textile) lake to drift, and lie down for some naked sun time in relative privacy. Even in a closed top kayak, you can pop your legs out and stretch out on top for sunning - but be totally exposed to onlookers.

-Mark

[Bare in the Desert]

Thanks guys. Boy, tough call. We decided before we buy anything were gonna do a kayak tour to see if this is something we like.

I really do like the hard-shells better but the soft-shells are easier to transport.

Thanks for the links Mark, lots of info. Would the cheaper inflatables be good for just cuising around calm waters of a small lake?

[Rabid_Clam]

Both vessels require much patience to learn how to handle them. One can just jump in one and paddle off but it taked allot of time in each to learn how to correctly and moreover SAFELY haneld it. Both can roll over very easily, the Kyak pretty much can trap you upside down where a canoe will just dump you out, and all your dunnage too. Canoes can carry much more weight but one needs to be very careful all the time where they can roll over very easily. Great fun both are just the same.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would the cheaper inflatables be good for just cuising around calm waters of a small lake? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's all the really cheap ones are good for. A quality inflatable is not less expensive than a hard shell, the really cheap ones you might see at a department store are OK for playing in calm water, but not for extensive paddling.

-Mark

[Bare in the Desert]

Thanks for the advice Mark. We took a look at the cheaper ones today and decided against em. You're right, there just pool toys really.

Found some better ones elsewhere made of a pvc material. Havent purchased yet, still looking to find the right kayaks but you definitely get what you pay for and Im not trusting a rubber pool toy out there.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Found some better ones elsewhere made of a pvc material. Havent purchased yet, still looking to find the right kayaks but you definitely get what you pay for and Im not trusting a rubber pool toy out there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I own a Sea Eagle 330 (http://www.seaeagle.com/inflatable_kayaks/se330.asp), Which is not cheap, but relatively inexpensive - under $300. It is very solid - unlike pool toys the main tubes on these boats inflate to very high pressure - like Zodiacs - and can be used in even class 3 whitewater. It is pretty much untippable - unlike regular kayaks or canoes. Except for the kayak like sitting and paddling it is more of a Canoe.

But it can't move in the water like a hard shell kayak or even canoe. Sea Eagle's upscale models are much more comparable in that regard. It is great for leisurely lake paddling or most downriver travel.

For fun I usually paddle an old hard shell Keowee kayak.

-Mark

[Naturist Mark]

http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/images/mirage/addl_mirage2_anima.gif If I had the benjamins, I would probably get one of the Hobie (http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/index.html) 'mirage drive' kayaks. These use a pedal drive as well as paddling and even sails. Very versatile, fast, and they look like a blast.

-Mark

[Bare in the Desert]

Never seen that before. With those paddles sticking out under the craft is it mainly an ocean kayak?

[nacktman]

Canoe and only canoe.

You can do all a kayak can do and a whole lot more with a canoe.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">With those paddles sticking out under the craft is it mainly an ocean kayak? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ocean or lake, or calm rivers. Wouldn't be suitable for whitewater - nor would you need the propulsion.

-Mark

[nifocinphx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason Lee, May 15, 2006 09:43 PM:

how is Hobie Kayak steering controlled ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jason Lee,

A hand operated rudder system. Click on the <span class="ev_code_BLUE">Hobie</span> 'mirage drive' kayaks link Naturist Mark provided and/or contact Hobie Cat @ http://www.hobiecat.com/company/contact.html

Normally, paddle(s) are used for "steering" control, kayaks & canoes http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mosquito_Bait]

I have used just about every kind of small boat that has been discussed here. The following are some random thoughts:

1. I have a rotomolded sea kayak. Serious sea kayakers turn their noses up at it because it isn't fiberglass or carbon and it is wider than higher performance models. I like it because it just bounces on the ground when I make a klutzy maneuver while taking it off the top of the car. I do worry about capsizing. I've never been able to do an Eskimo roll. If it does capsize, I'll have to climb out and just float alongside until I can reach shore.
http://www.geocities.com/greg_vassilakos/metompk2/Image418.jpg

2. Several friends have sit-on-top kayaks. This is probably the safest design for recreational users who aren't interested in learning to do Eskimo rolls. It is easier to get back onboard if it ever does capsize. The only thing that annoys me with sit-on-tops is that water sloshes in and out of the cockpit via the drain holes while underway. It is impossible to keep the seat dry.

3. I had a Folbot at one time. Folbots feature a hull composed of waterproof fabric over a collapsible frame. The boat can be dismantled and carried in a duffle bag. I have a friend who has one and loves it; however, in my experience, the boat was controllable only in calm water. Even with a rudder kit, the boat wanted to turn sideways to the wind and waves.
http://www.folbot.com/images/kodiak_assembly.gif
http://www.folbot.com/

4. I presently have custody of a good friend's canoe. In all honesty, I could probably have used the canoe for every excursion that I've used the sea kayak. The canoe is an old Coleman model made of Royalex. We once bent the nose down at about a 45 degree angle when the rope holding it on top of the car got caught under a wheel. We took it off the top of the car and bounced it on the sidewalk a few times to bend it back in shape. The only evidence of the incident is a slight bend in the aluminum extrusion that forms the gunwale.

5. If you want to cover serious distance, consider a rowing shell. Recreational models are available that can be used in choppy water. With the sea kayak, I've experienced tidal flows that I've simply had to wait out onshore. I've never had any similar problem with a rowing shell. Rowing shells are narrow and have a reputation for being "tippy"; however, you quickly learn to use the oars like pontoons to stabilize the boat if it tips too far.
http://www.rowalden.com/files/Rowalden/images/horizon%2031.jpeg
http://www.rowalden.com/

6. I've been very intrigued by the Hobie Mirage mentioned in a previous post. They look like a lot of fun. I'm curious if anyone has experience in beaching them. I'd worry that the propulsion flippers could be damaged when beaching or operating in shallow water.

7. One boat that we had a lot of fun with is a Snark. It's a small sailboat that features a foam core hull covered with vinyl. It's small and light enough to carry on top of a modest size car. It is also very simple to learn to sail.
http://www.castlecraft.com/images/Snark-super-open-boy.jpg
http://www.castlecraft.com/super_snark.htm

8. I've had a couple of two-man Sevylor inflatable kayaks. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for a lake or protected body of water. They are not fast but they are controllable. I think the fact that the seats are offset from the center of the boat makes them more controllable because the boat can be easily spun by paddling sideways.
http://images.shipstore.com/ss/images/sev/sevk79hf.jpg

[Bike Rider]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pops:

“Keep in mind that whether paddling a kayak or a canoe, wearing a PFD (life vest) should always be standard procedure. Even though these are "simple boats" accidents can and do happen.”

The threat of accidents aside, keep in mind the water patrol guys love to write expensive tickets.

I live in Michigan and have witnessed this several times on all kinds of waterways. At least they do it with smile.

[John P]

Maybe Michigan has different laws, but here in the east you don't have to wear a lifejacket, only have one with you (that's adults--kids need to wear them, by law, when they're in a boat). I've been approached more than once by game wardens and rangers and asked "Can I see your PFD" and once you hold it up, they'll be on their way. I've even heard that in Vermont, they won't say a word if you're naked, but they still want to see that PFD. I haven't been brave enough to let them get close before I got into shorts!

On salt water, in the middle of a big lake when it's windy, or in rapids, you'd be nuts not to have your PFD on. At other times going bare is a risk many of us think is acceptable. I won't try to deny that it is a risk.

[Bare in the Desert]

We finally tried our hand at kayaking at a local lake on some rentals. For lack of a better work, it was "awesome"!

We've decided on the Old Town Otter kayak. Pretty basic hardshell for recreational use. Figured we can put any add-ons as need em and if we decide to go more advanced we can pass these down to our girls. Oh, and already have our PFD picked out. Not required by law here either but better save than sorry.

Yay kayaking!

[Nudeinbama]

My son had an Oldtown otter, and while it is a good little boat and handles fairly well and is stable in the water, you will find that the more length a boat has the better it will track, or row, and stay staight, as you paddle. I found that the otter requires quite a bit or correcting to keep it going straight across the water, whereas my 12 foot Mainstrem renegade rows straight as a arrow in the water, but takes a little more effort to turn sharply, but you usually done need that on the lake, anyways. Have fun Kayaking.
nudeinbama

[Bare in the Desert]

Well we ended up getting the kayaks and a week later we were offered a 16' canoe for $50, couldn't pass that up.

Yay boats!