Thou shalt not kill!

[R.M. Greenman]

This doesn't have much to do with nudity and religion but I wanted to get other Chritian views on this.

Pardon me, but I do not have the artical in front of me, so I do not have the name and place, but the guy who killed an abortion doctor is facing the death penelty for his crime.

He was on T.V. recently, all smiles, unapoligetic for his actions, saying he was doing Gods' work. He thinks that when he is put to death, he is going straight to Heaven because of his deed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that one commandment is fairly point blank. If God wanted this doctor to die, I'm sure God would have done it.

It is not just radical Muslims that think they have to take Gods work into their own hands.

Whether you are prolife or prochoice, that guy was wrong and if there is a heaven and hell, I'd love to see his face when he looks into the eyes of Satan.

[R.M. Greenman]

This doesn't have much to do with nudity and religion but I wanted to get other Chritian views on this.

Pardon me, but I do not have the artical in front of me, so I do not have the name and place, but the guy who killed an abortion doctor is facing the death penelty for his crime.

He was on T.V. recently, all smiles, unapoligetic for his actions, saying he was doing Gods' work. He thinks that when he is put to death, he is going straight to Heaven because of his deed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that one commandment is fairly point blank. If God wanted this doctor to die, I'm sure God would have done it.

It is not just radical Muslims that think they have to take Gods work into their own hands.

Whether you are prolife or prochoice, that guy was wrong and if there is a heaven and hell, I'd love to see his face when he looks into the eyes of Satan.

[florida-david]

hello, i'm sure that you are talking about the guy in florida that they finally killed. there are wackos in every religion and i think he gives christians a bad name. i wonder about the percentage of christians out there who actually believe he was doing the right thing by killing someone like that. i am not a christian, nor very "religious" (whatever that means), but i am glad my tax dollars are not being wasted anymore on his jail cell.

[Nude\'n\'happy]

Florida-David, I agree with you. There will always be those who violate their own religious teachings and doctrines and claim they are doing what God/Allah etc. want them to do. I feel this guy is no better than the doctor he killed as both have taken a life. I don't like having to pay taxes to keep these people around either.

If you are looking at this from a cost standpoint it is fact that keeping someone in prison for life is cheaper than the death penality because of all the litigation required before you can put someone to death.

If you are looking at the death penalty as a deterrent it fails in that respect. The murder rate did not fall when capital punishment was once again made legal. It doesn't prevent crime.

If you want to look at the death penalty as a punishment for killing, how is letting the government kill making it not ok for individuals to kill? Killing should not be legal for anyone and particularly not governments and particularly not our US government that sometimes kills innocent people.

Here in Florida Gov Bush is doing his best to make sure those on death row get their rights taken away by trying to do away with the government agency that handles their appeals. With such a large number of people on death row being cleared with DNA evidence should we even allow the government to kill at all? Do you understand that with the changes Gov Shrub made that getting a chance to test the DNA is next to impossible to accomplish?

Sorry for rambling... got carried away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[hw]

R.M. Greenman, florida-david, and I be nude Gary. Great comments!
I agree with cyndiann about the cost. The amount of $$$ being wasted on the death row inmates boggles the mind.
Maybe we should step back to yester-year and feed the prisoners hardtack and water. My mother tells a story of when she was a little girl, late 20's or early 30's. An 8 year old boy was missing for a few days. They finally found him bound and gagged floating in the river. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif The two men who had done it were rounded up by a posse. The possee found a really tall tree and a couple of really short ropes, and the men were hanged in the middle of town. They were left there for awhile for the townspeople to see. My mother said that because of her age she was only allowed to see the tree after the men had been cut down.
I'm not saying we should rush to judge like this, however with DNA being used in many cases these days, do we really need to keep the courts clogged with appeals? Could the money we spend on criminals be better spent on schools and health care for everyone? Sure it could, but then some people (judges, lawyers, correctional officers), may lose their jobs. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Just my $50,000 opinion.

[Frank R]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
"If you are looking at the death penalty as a deterrent it fails in that respect. The murder rate did not fall when capital punishment was once again made legal. It doesn't prevent crime."

Really? OK, please provide me the names of every murder who has received the death penalty, had that sentence carried out, and then come back to life to kill again. I would say the death penalty is 100% effective.

"If you want to look at the death penalty as a punishment for killing, how is letting the government kill making it not ok for individuals to kill? Killing should not be legal for anyone and particularly not governments and particularly not our US government that sometimes kills innocent people."

Do you hate police officers, prision guards and just innocent victims so much that you want to issue every killer a hunting license with no bag limit? Tell this to the widow of PA state trooper Philip Kessner who was murdered by four men who had escaped from prision where they were already serving life sentences for muder. And why would these men hesitate to kill again and again. With no death penalty, what are you going to do, give them four or five life sentences? Keep their bones in a jail cell for a hundred years after they die?

Sorry for rambling... got carried away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When it comes to knowledge of nudism, I yield to your much better informed opinions and knowledge. While I have the greatest respect for you and admire your hard work for nudism, I do not agree with some of your other viewpoints. However, since we both are very strongly in favor of nudism, let's just agree to work nude side by nude side in support of nudist everywhere and let's lay our differences aside.

[Naturist Mark]

Innocents on death row (http://www.truthinjustice.org/dpissues.htm)

There are plenty of examples of innocent men (almost always men) on death row. In nearly every case of a death row inmate being exonerated it was not due to the normal process of justice, but due to the intervention of outside media, students or organizations working to intercede in a broken system.

Don't expect to see an official exoneration of an executed convict. A dead man has no standing in court and the evidence will not be admitted. Once dead, innocence is irrelevent to our courts. Virginia even has a policy of destroying evidence after an execution to ensure there can never be proof of innocence.

The proper way to measure the efficiency of justice is not to see how high the conviction rate is, but how reliably the truly innocent are exonerated. We aren't doing very well.

-Mark

[Ren]

Naturistmark1 is right, but even moreso, the innocents on death row not only are usually men, but usually minorities. Hmm... sounds like the "justice" system isn't always just. If you want to look at just how bad it can get, watch Errol Morris' "Thin Blue Line." That film actually was the one thing that got the correct person in jail and an innocent out of it. Imagine those without Morris to investigate and who are on death row. If even one innocent can die, the system is not right.

But back to the original post... It goes beyond just zealots who kill with reference to God. After every war speech Bush and other Presidents make, they wrongfully invoke God (separation of church and state and all) to bless the US, as though God takes sides in war. So, sometimes its nations who wrongfully kill and annex God to its cause. Shameful stuff.

[R.M. Greenman]

A quick oppinion on death row vs. life term.

I am less scared of the death penalty than of a life sentence.

If I had my way, Timothy McViegh(sp?) would have spent his entire life, in a 8'x8' cell with photos of his victims embedded in the walls staring at him til he died of natural causes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[Tenchi]

First off let me state for the most part I am vehemently against abortion. I believe abortion should hardly be used at all. Flame me if you like, but that's my belief. However I do NOT believe that he had the justification to take away the abortion doctors life. That was just wrong that he killed that doctor. He has murdered, and he is not a better man for murdering. Instead he has caused heartbreak to the doctor's friends and/or family. The killer was not acting nor doing the will of the Lord when he killed the doctor. Instead the man has come across as a ruthless hypocrite. In other words please don't condone all Christians for the wicked mistake of one Christian.

What makes anyone think the murderer was a Christian--because he CLAIMED to be?

[David77]

My liberal philosophy teacher in college said (many years ago), that he saw Christianity not so much as a religion and cetainly not as a systematic philosophy, but a "WAY OF LIFE". Therefore I think that he too, would have said that this murderer was not a Christian, under his definition.

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David77:
My liberal philosophy teacher in college said (many years ago), that he saw Christianity not so much as a religion and cetainly not as a systematic philosophy, but a "WAY OF LIFE". Therefore I think that he too, would have said that this murderer was not a Christian, under his definition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is very true. Christians often say--I have said it many times myself--that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God through His Son. Our church attendance, baptism, communion/Eucharist, and the rest, are, or should be, the least part of being a Christian.

[shãybare]

God uses people to do His will, at least according to the Old Testament, where He had the Jews to wipe out entire cities to include all the men, women, children, babies and all the lifestock. He had them burn down all the homes and barns and everything.

If God is the same today, yesterday and forever, then why do people get upset when people today say they are doing His will when they murder someone?

Do I think this guy was doing God,s will? No, I don,t. Was this guy a true christian? I don't really know. It is between him and his God. If he was following the bible as close as he could. If he was doing his best. If he was walking in the light he had been given. Wouldn't that mean he was a christian and that the death of Jesus Christ covers all of his sins? Who are we to judge. We say he is not a christian because he broke a commandment. Does Jesus have to draw in the dirt again?

[Jochanaan]

As for the man who murdered an abortion provider, he was definitely not following Jesus' admonition to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16) In this political climate, killing killers only gains sympathy for the ones killed. It is logic, reason, and compassion that will gain support for the pro-life cause.

[R.M. Greenman]

As I grew up within a christian up bringing, I believed that if you commit a sin, you must repent. Ask forgiveness and such.

This guy doesn't seem interested in asking forgiveness, repenting, just prowd of the fact that he took one abortion doctor out thinking it helped babies live.

He might have asked forgiveness while sitting in his cell,but his repenting should include that he was wrong and warn all the other nuts not to follow him.

As I don't really believe in a hell, it does kind of bother me that Hitler might have asked forgiveness before his death and been saved! A christian loophole?

[shãybare]

Jochanaan, R.M. Greenman,

You are saying that this man is not right because he isn't living in the light that you have. He isn't reading and understanding the bible the same way that you interpret the bible.

There are many denominations that disagree strongly on scripture, yet still think that these denominations ( or at least some ) will still go to Heaven.

As I stated in my previous post, I do not believe the killing was right. He should definitely pay to society for the crime against society. As a mere mortal, however, I can't judge whether he is "a christian" or not. That is up to God to do no matter what we think.

[shãybare]

BTW, To whom should he repent? He feels that he was doing God's will, therefore, he doesn't see the need to repent to Him. He has certainly broken societys' law. He is being punished for that . He has also broken the law of God as we see it. We must leave that punishment to God, no matter how much it offends us.

It seems that every time someone does something in the name of God that we do not like we say that he is not a real christian. We are not the judge of that. He may be a weak christian and doing what he truly believes to be right. He may be wrong and then again God may have told him to do it even though He didn't let us in on it. I cannot think of one time when He has asked me if He could do something. How about you?

[R.M. Greenman]

Shaybare, are you saying an all powerful God needs a human to do his dirty work?

What about lighning bolts? If every abortion doctor in the world was suddenly struck dead at the same time, even I would have to admit that the powers that be is against abortion and the practice I'm sure would instantly go the way of the dodo.

[R.M. Greenman]

P.S. This is one of the main reasons that I've been distancing myself from christianity.NOBODY has the answers except God, and he ain't telling!

[shãybare]

Do you not believe God works through people? I don't see Him down here doing things. I don't believe that it rains only on the unjust.

Please see the PM I sent you. Thanks

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by florida-david:
hello, i'm sure that you are talking about the guy in florida that they finally killed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think they are refering to Eric Rudolph, who had been hiding in NC for a few years. They found him recently and have charged him for the attacks at the 96 Olympics, the abortion clinic and a gay nightclub. He supposedly had help in avading the officials, many of his mountain brethren look at him a hero of sorts in a whacked way.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrianM:
[QUOTE]I think they are refering to Eric Rudolph.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought they were talking about Paul Hill, the former minister who was executed for murdering an abortion doctor ten years ago.

[BrianM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vin:
I thought they were talking about Paul Hill, the former minister who was executed for murdering an abortion doctor ten years ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe??? Rudolph has recently been the news because he was a fugitive for several years and was recently caught.

[shãybare]

Who are we talking about? I have been talking about former minister Paul Hill who was executed for murering an abortion doctor and said he was expecting to be with God as soon as he was killed and was looking forward to his death. He was not repentant for his actions.

[R.M. Greenman]

Paul Hill! I started this thread but did not know his name at the beggining.

Sorry I didn't clarify it sooner! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[missouriboy]

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Now, I'm no scholar, and I have no opinion on this, but I wanted to relate something I once read about this commandment. It was in a debate about the death penalty, something about "two wrongs don't make a right," etc. etc., remember that stuff? Anyhow, someone wrote that there may be some controversy about the translation of that commandment to English, that it's possible that maybe "kill" should have been "murder." They went on to postulate that this exonerates the "state" for taking the life (killing) one who has committed "murder."

Anyhow, that's what I read. I don't claim to know.

[tarsus]

much as been said,so i am just stating how i feel.
no one has the right to take another persons life for any reason. not a single person not a goverment. there is no god given right to do this
i have always heard you can prove any thing with a bible,and i agree you can if you do not read the whole thing and see that the statement "nothing stays the same forever" is also true about the bible. i am a little familar with the islamic faith due to fact i work with followers of this faith,and though i do not belive
i know that true islam is not the mis-quoted islam
we seem to hear on the news so much. this is true of the christian bible also.

[averagejoe]

For most of my early life, I never really had an opinion one way or the other on the Death Penalty. Oh, I knew what it said in my Bible about "Thou Shall Not Kill", but I had never given it much thought. I suppose that I felt you reaped what you sowed, and if you killed, you were killed lest you kill again.

Then when I was about nineteen, I re-read The Lord of the Rings. I read it now with a little more experience of the world, and in the first book, I came across these words of Gandalf's in reference to whether Gollum deserved to die for what he had done in his life:

"Deserve it? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

I read that and paused to read it again. And reread it many times over the next few weeks. Despite having read these books at least four times before, for some reason that passage stuck out then. I thought about it in the context of the death penalty. Could I be sure that those that were sent to their deaths were truly deserving of such a fate? And if they weren't, how could I fix that mistake? If they were executed, I couldn't correct that mistake. At that point, I felt very much like a small child that has been playing with their father's gun. The power of life and death is something that no one has. I cannot give someone life. That is God's alone. So what right did I have to put someone to death?

That put me in a bit of a spot. Aside from the obvious "How do we punish those that deserve punishment?" question was this one: If the state executes a criminal that is later exonerated, have we all just committed murder? We are in the end the ones that make the laws, so if those laws are used to kill an innocent man, have we just murdered them? Wouldn't their loved ones be right to demand the punishment of those that have unjustly killed, that in this case being US.

That is why I am against the death penalty. I do not preach about it, I do not protest about it, I do not speak out about it. But no one that ever runs for office gets my vote if they are not opposed to the death penalty. When I stand before the Creator at the end of my time, I hope to stand with as clear a conscience as possible. I will let God punish those that take a life in the best way that He sees fit. But I will not try to second guess him.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by averagejoe:
We are in the end the ones that make the laws, so if those laws are used to kill an innocent man, have we just murdered them? Wouldn't their loved ones be right to demand the punishment of those that have unjustly killed, that in this case being US. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Does your view extend to the killing of people (military and civilians) in times of war?

Rik

[Naxet Erab]

Some comments on this thread:
1. The Hebrew verb in Ex. 20:13 is, I believe, universally translated "murder" in modern translations. It has nothing to do with war or capital punishment. The distinction is seen even in the old King James version where the good guys "slew" or "smote" the enemy (different Hebrew verbs from Ex. 20:13), they did not "kill" them. And capital punishment was the mandated sentence in the Law of Moses for a whole host of crimes (nomadic peoples aren't big on prisons).
2. It is simply incorrect to say the US murder rate has not declined since executions resumed. See for example http://www.disastercenter.com/crime.
In Texas, for instance, the murder rate averaged 16.7/100,000 for 1979-1981, just before executions resumed. By 2000, it was down to 5.9/100,000, and the decline correlates pretty well with the increase in executions per year. Now that does not PROVE deterrence - correlation doesn't necessarily demonstrate causation - but it is perhaps suggestive of a relationship.
3. Paul Hill committed murder, and the State of Florida was justified in executing him - assuming he was mentally competent. The fact that he claimed to be a Christian, yet felt no remorse at committing murder, brings his sanity into question. Had he, for instance, killed a logger and said that Mother Earth had told him to, he might well have become a cause celebre with the ACLU.

[aunaturelone]

Got that right. Both testaments use the term murder if you look at the orginal Aramiac. The Bible has plenty of references to when killing is allowed for cause.

Another litle tidbit. The Golden Rule in the earliest Hebrew texts is, "Do not do unto others what it hateful to yourself", and not "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The change took place at the behest of St Paul.

[Vin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aunaturelone:
Got that right. Both testaments use the term murder if you look at the orginal Aramiac. The Bible has plenty of references to when killing is allowed for cause.

Another litle tidbit. The Golden Rule in the earliest Hebrew texts is, "Do not do unto others what it hateful to yourself", and not "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The change took place at the behest of St Paul. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Many changes were done at the behest of Paul, if I understand correctly.

One more tidbit: most of the earliest surviving books appear to be in Greek, I think. That would make it hard to compare the Aramaic versions, if they existed, to modern translations.

In the King James Bible, Matt. 7:12, the verse from which the "Golden Rule" was taken says, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." They used an excessive amount of words to say something that could have taken far less words without losing anything in the meaning.