Body Shame or Body Hatred?

[Boreas]

I have been thinking about body image a bit lately and have read posts by people like Stu who doesn't seem to like his body, or Rocket who doesn't seem to like nudity. On the other hand there are of course many people in here who are very comfortable "in their own skins".

I guess what started me on this thought was when my co-worker said she had seen the Toronto (SARS) Rolling Stones concert on TV. She said there was a topless woman shown. When I told her it was legal for women to be topless in Ontario she said "ew gross". It seemed she didn't like seeing breasts. That seemed to be a statement of self hatred.

Body shame has been discussed in here in various formats and threads. What about body or self-hatred. If you have a penis and hate penises does that mean you don't like yourself on some level? If you have breasts and don't like seeing breasts does the same thing apply?

It is increasingly amazing to me that we are given this body, an amazing work of art and we often don't like it. And it is beautiful no matter what shape size or colour. I have wasted too much of my life not liking something about my body. It was too skinny, too pale, too fat... The more I have come to accept me as I am, the better my life has been.

What are your thoughts?

[Boreas]

I have been thinking about body image a bit lately and have read posts by people like Stu who doesn't seem to like his body, or Rocket who doesn't seem to like nudity. On the other hand there are of course many people in here who are very comfortable "in their own skins".

I guess what started me on this thought was when my co-worker said she had seen the Toronto (SARS) Rolling Stones concert on TV. She said there was a topless woman shown. When I told her it was legal for women to be topless in Ontario she said "ew gross". It seemed she didn't like seeing breasts. That seemed to be a statement of self hatred.

Body shame has been discussed in here in various formats and threads. What about body or self-hatred. If you have a penis and hate penises does that mean you don't like yourself on some level? If you have breasts and don't like seeing breasts does the same thing apply?

It is increasingly amazing to me that we are given this body, an amazing work of art and we often don't like it. And it is beautiful no matter what shape size or colour. I have wasted too much of my life not liking something about my body. It was too skinny, too pale, too fat... The more I have come to accept me as I am, the better my life has been.

What are your thoughts?

I have a great nephew who, like many males including myself, thinks his penis too small. He very much dislikes seeing men nude. He complained about my INA screensaver photos, although there are women in the photos also, and he definitely likes seeing naked women. It's the men he didn't like seeing.

Nudism has done wonders in getting me to accept my body as it is, faults and all.

Yes, there is a lot of body-hatred. Some people think bodies are ugly without clothes, regardless how they look.

I wonder if your co-worker would have said "ew gross" if the men had been nude.

Personally, I think penises are almost as attractive as breasts. Well, I have seen a few penises that looked kind of gross because of things they did to them. I am an admirer of the beauty of the human body, whether it be male or female, and I don't mean that in any sexual way.

[Rik]

I have just finished reading a book about a woman who travelled alone through Papua New Guinea. It was a very tough journey both mentally and physically, even more so for a lone female, and she was constantly in fear of being attacked. After the journey she ponders on what it was all about and the effect it had on her. She wrote:

"These days everything seems to be about competition and reward. Being better than the next person. Being admired. Being worthy. I had spent most of my life thinking that elusive self-acceptance was something that could also be won. The irony was that I didn't need to go anywhere to find it. Yet women, in particular, seem to be taught that self-worth exists beyond them. They look for it in the makeup they wear, the men they date, the applause they receive. They must always please and be pleasing. Regardless of how intelligent, courageous or talented they might actually be, they learn to evaluate their lives based on others' accolades."

And so it is with our bodies. Many people appear to believe that self-acceptance is conditional upon acceptance by others and so can only approach a level of self-acceptance by projecting an image of themselves which they believe other people will find attractive. This onevitably leads to huge numbers of people being made to feel inadequate as they struggle (with diet, exercise, clothing etc) to find that elusive state of being which satisfies both themsleves and those around them.

Rik

[Nude in the North]

Body shame is taught to people from birth.
Insecure people continue to make jokes about other people's looks to somehow make themselves feel better.
I often get told that I am losing my hair or that I'm getting a "big belly". I usually "thank" them for the information , saying that I have never seen myself in a mirror so it's good that people like them take the time from their busy day to point out these things.

Steve

Yes, Rik, I know exactly what you mean. Thanks to an abusive dad and hyper-critical peers, I grew up with absolutely NO self-esteem, confidence in myself, or respect for myself, and therefore no respect for anyone else. I was shy and withdrawn because of the abuse I suffered and wasn't able to make friends. My peers rejected me because of that. This is not self-pity. I'm way past that. I'm simply stating facts about what abuse all through one's childhood does. I'm a survivor, and I take whatever is thrown at me and keep going. That's one good thing my childhood did for me--it made me strong and able to face whatever comes my way. Social nudism helped take away my fear and help me to accept myself as I am.

It has been a long, hard struggle just to make myself believe that I'm not what one of my instructors in basic training constantly told us, "You're lower than whale manure." That's the way I was treated all through my childhood. Fortunately, I had a loving mother, and I'm sure she was largely responsible for me turning half-way normal--whatever normal is.

People who had a happy, or even "normal", childhood can't understand and don't seem to care what many people are going through suffering from a feeling of not being worthy of being loved because they can't measure up. I was criticized in a PM message for writing about my childhood. However, there are many people in the same catagorty as myself who suffered even far worse than I did. Compared to some people I've heard about, I had a happy, carefree childhood.

Many are criticized by their parents or peers, or both, because of their bodies not being "perfect", their clothes not being good enough, and many other things for which they're criticized and made to feel they're "lower than whale manure". Many people have a lot to overcome with society telling them they don't measure up unless they look like a model--a "perfect 10". Even if they are a perfect 10, they often still feel they're lacking something. That's why plastic surgery is such a big business. Improve this, take a little away here, put more there, make this smaller, make that bigger. No one is ever satified--until they get into social nudism and realize that it doesn't matter how they look. There are people who accept them just the way they are.

[nudeM]

boreas: Having self-body hang ups is in the mind of the owner. If that owner has certain hang ups about his/her body, then they should go to a nude beach, resort, etc. They will quickly find that their bodies are not that much different. Sure, there are those who are smaller, larger, thinner, fatter, hairy, smoother, etc. I for one thought of myself as being on the rather small side, but after attending a nude beach, I quickly found that there were others that were the same, if not smaller, and they were enjoying themselves. They did not worry about their sizes or personal hang-ups. To go further, I even saw an individual enjoying himself chatting with others, sporting an erection. This individual was exercising, so I'm assuming that the physical activity was the cause of his erection. No one was alarmed. Afterwards, they dressed up and left together, still chatting away.

Some people worry about being too small, too thin, too fat, too hairy and, believe it or not, being too large. We are here for one thing only, and that is to enjoy the nudist lifestyle, either indoors, outdoors, alone at home or with others at a nudist setting. We simply don't like to wear clothes. Basically, what I'm trying to say is if one is uncomfortable with their body, then they should go to a nudist setting and just look around. As stated, even the ones who have that "perfect 10" body, they, the ones with the bodies, have their own personal hang-ups.

Get out and enjoy life, and be nude as often as you like.

[R.M. Greenman]

This is strange. As I was thinking about a reply to this subject, my mind went in five different directions, so I might not be too organized in my thoughts.(Working two jobs can kill brain cells)

Being a male, I really don't care to see other men naked. When I am at a nudist social, I really do not pay attention to other mens bodies because I will probly make mental comparisons and become depressed about my own. Don't get me wrong! I am all about freedom from clothing, but unlike Stu, if I don't like what I see, I can ignore it.
My first time at a landed club, I took notice that the average age (ON THAT DAY) was 60+. I kinda felt good that I had the most fit body (male) until I saw this one guy who was very fit and tanned (I can't accomplish a tan) and then I found out he was 55. I didn't look as good as him at 25.
The fact that I am fair skinned and do not tan easily, gets me my fair share of ribbing from other nudists.

I guess that is my one body hang up/fear. Because of my lack of tanning abilities, I have people saying stupid things if I am only shirtless," YOU ARE BLINDING ME!" or " I haven't seen a whiter belly on a fish!"

I know that here in Colorado, because of the alttitude and lack of atmosphere, If I do not use vampire strength sun block(SPF2000) I will become a lobster within an hour.

[namedun]

Go Jon-Marc go! I had a tough childhood as well, so I know exactly what your talking about.

Namedun /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Boreas]

Oh Greenman, I know that song. I have been accused of blinding people too. I am also quite fair and when it was more fashionable to have a dark tan I was terribly out of fashion! I am now quite happy with who I am and realized God gave me fair skin etc and that is who I am...love it or leave it. Thank goodness for better sunscreen! My mother thought I would reach adulthood with no nose since it was always burned and blistered during the summer... I do have a nose now.

I guess the reason I posted this thought was that I think it is an incredible waste of time to be self-loathing or hating our bodies. I am who I am. I won't be modelling for any of those mags like Cosmo or GQ anytime soon...that is quite alright. Everything I have on my body is my own, and un-altered. Everything works as it should and the aches aren't too overwhelming.

Virginia Satir said that self-esteem is a choice not a birthright. Even when we are criticized and abused as children we can come to a point where we decide to accept the external views of us or not. Jon Marc has expressed this well.

I am looking forward to seeing more thoughts on this subject. Perhaps the title should have been "body shame or self-hatred" instead of bady hatred. Any thoughts Stu?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif (wearing sunscreen)

We must be the change we wish to see -Gandhi

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by R.M. Greenman:
When I am at a nudist social, I really do not pay attention to other mens bodies because I will probly make mental comparisons and become depressed about my own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you allow what other people look like to influence the way you feel about yourself?

Rik

[NudeAl]

Very interesting topic. I to can identify with those who at one time or another have had a little less than confident approach to how they feel about their bodies.

I have found this to be even more true as I age. My wife is a few years older than me and women are much more body self consious than men so I have seen it from her perspective also. I am dealing with this issue on a everyday basis. I know I am not hung so to speak but I know I am not below average either. I am in the normal range, slightly over weight and thinning hair. In other words I am me and the top of the hill has been breached. I will continue to fight this losing battle with life until the day I die. I know this and it is okay.

I think that is the essense of body acceptance. I am not a perfect image but I am the only copy like this and that is good enough. It took me a long time to know this. I think our society brain washes us in to thinking we are imperfect in order to get us to buy crap to make ourselves more attractive,... and the manufacturors rich.

[Ren]

I was always judgmental of other people's appearances, usually because I was comparing myself to them. I was never up to par to whoever it might be. When I gained weight, I wasn't skinny enough. When I lost weight, I wasn't toned enough. When I dressed up, the clothes didn't hang the way I wanted. I was actually comfortable with my body when I was nude. A lot of this had to be that I was auditioning for commercials and agents a lot of the time. You could lose out if your sideburns were too low, so it was always an appearance game.

But for the longest time, I was always comfortable nude. I never connected any of it, because I have only been comfortable nude when amongst strangers (saunas and the like) or alone. Never when I was with someone I knew. That's about where I stand now.

Now, however, I like my body, even if it isn't a ten according to society or a magazine. There are always things I want to change, but it's more so that I will feel good physically rather than be attractive to someone else or to a focus group. More than likely, this has resulted from my practicing nudism at home and just growing comfortable with myself. When I was part of the meat market, I was being made an object rather than a person. My self-dislike came from always being appraised. Now, I don't care if I'm appraised, because I'm comfortable with who I am both clothed and unclothed.

[MikeyBear1964]

Something I've mentioned in other posts - I am uncircumcized. Always felt different. Also felt inferior thanks to parents who put me down at every chance. Didn't like my body. Hated being naked in front of other people. But always enjoyed being nude when alone. As I met other men who are uncircumcized - Big help. Getting rid of the excess emotional baggage helped too.

Going to nudist environments is a tremendous help to my self worth. I see people with better bodies and worse bodies too! I also meet people who do not judge me for having a less than conventionally perfect physique. And for those who do judge my love handles - Who needs them! As a result, I feel better about my own body.

[Ren]

I was always propped up by my parents and I still didn't like my body. I think the less we liked our bodies the more apt we were to become someone who was interested in nudism.

Here's my theory (feel free to poke holes): those of us who were picked on in some way based on outward appearance never felt too sexy as kids. My glasses were my biggest downfall. So, more than likely we projected that discord upon ourselves even more. We weren't feeling hot since no one was telling us we were, and therefore, our times naked during the developmental stages of the teen years were not spent with other people (ie. we weren't actively in positions to use our looks for sex). So, now we don't see the naked body as solely a sexual device and have a more positive worldview about nudity than someone whose whole development was based on using the body to further sexual causes. Therefore, nudism to us is a healthy infatuation since we can separate sexual nudity with non-sexual nudity.

And as we got to know ourselves better, maybe we just happen to like ourselves better, and whatever it was that bothered us doesn't since we now know that love isn't based solely on looks. So, all the teen hardships ultimately pay off?

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NudeAl:
...I am not a perfect image but I am the only copy like this and that is good enough. It took me a long time to know this. I think our society brain washes us in to thinking we are imperfect... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it does take a long time to shed our early indoctrination of vain self-hatred, and to replace it with self-confidence. Maybe this is the real reason nudist venues have primarily older folks, not just for economic reasons.

And perhaps the reason nudism is so small is because most people just run out of time before they ever ascend to our plateau of understanding.

[aunaturelone]

It's a matter of competitive edge. It is a human universal to divide and catagorize by appearance even though much of attractiveness may be socially mediated. Many people really do judge the aesthetics of their fellow person to be a part of their character. Certain facial or body types are associated with certain personality types as indicated by local custom.

Another example, when students in college are asked to grade subjective essay tests, given no information about the authors they give one set of grades. Attach a photograph of a person to those tests and we consistantly find that people who are judged attractive are graded higher than they were without the photos and those who are judged unattractive are graded a bit lower.

It's also true that in any job requiring substantial "face time" with others, those with nicer faces do better. If an ugly person and a pretty person have similar personalities, wouldn't most people prefer to deal with the pretty one?

It's interesting that the faces considered the nicest are often also either the blandest or are copies of faces of the rich and powerful. The figure that one day is considered too fat to be attractive is too thin another day. There are fashions in physiology as surely as there are feashins in cloting and everything else. You're ability to follow fashion is often taken as a measure of your status.

Other experiments have shown the same thing to be true even with elementary school teachers. We learn VERY early on that we are judged by our aesthetics as much as our performance.

Then there is also the issue of age. A lot of the concern with appearance is about concealing the age one really is, wanting to look younger (possibly even confusing looking younger with being younger). Looking younger (esp. if you have hit middle or old age) makes you more competitive in the mating market. It also puts you at an advantage in the job market as many an unemployed middle aged man can tell you.

Don't think for a heartbeat that one's appearance doesn't put one at a significant advantage or disadvantage in life. Seeing the aging process in the mirror also reminds us of our own mortality. That's why some people can become obsessed by it and forget there are other aspects of life they need to be focusing on more.

[shãybare]

Nude resorts are a big help in restoring self esteem. Unfortunately, the resorts are still apart of the "real world" and not all the people there are full time nudists so some still judge by appearance including full time nudists.

[floridanudeman]

wow wow I love everything said here so correct I was very sick as a child so when it came to sports I was to weak couldn't run fast enough jump high enough couldn't catch a ball it took three years to make the litlle league team I don't give up to easy my fahter was obsessed with sports and being the best and I was always led to beleive I was less he only beleives in wining. leading to low self esteem and body shame but I'am much wiser now. I think all bodies are fine big small pale and tan they are all great to me and now older love being naked and not ashamed of my body and do not judge other people bodies. It took a long time for me to accept this.

[healthnudt]

Sometimes things work in reverse. I was a fat kid with almost albino skin and, you guessed it, a small one. I was ashamed of myself through school, mortified to shower in front of others. My father acted like I didn't even exist.

When I was drafted into the army, I learned to overcome most of these problems. I finally learned it was mostly my own fault for not controlling my own life.

I started running and working out. I tanned as much as I could, and even though my color has never been golden brown, I am able to withstand hours in the sun without horrible burning.

I had the surgery to fix my small one. It's not as good as I'd like, but, y'know, I'm glad I did it. We can all talk about how unimportant some things are, but when you fix them, and your life is better, well, it makes you realize that it >WAS< and >IS< important.

Last year I was in just about the best shape of my life. At 52 years old. I enjoyed being nude at my club. I was confident, outgoing, casual.

In the fall, I had an injury which kept me from working out. I fattened up quickly. Lost the minimal tan I had. I couldn't bear to be seen that way. It was like being the kid in school again. The people around me probably wouldn't give a darn, but I did. and do.

I've only recently become fit enough to start working out again. and tanning. and walking without slouching. And I know now, more than ever before, that for good or evil, right or wrong, body image is important. I don't measure other people by my standard, but I am unable to measure myself any other way.

And that's just as okay as being happy with yourself the way you are.

"I was a fat kid with almost albino skin and, you guessed it, a small one.....

I had the surgery to fix my small one."

Not to pick on one guy but why are people afraid to say "penis"?

PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't want to be ashamed of your body then proudly call it's parts by their proper names. It will change the way you feel about those parts.

[BunzFan]

I can relate to the post by healthnudt. When I was
a skinny little kid, I was uncomfortable about
even removing my T-shirt in front of others. When
I was a teen, I began sleeping nude, but stripping
under the covers. It just felt so good without the
clingy clothes binding me. Eventually I went nude
in front of a friend or two while camping or fishing in a remote spot, and came to feel an
acceptance of my own body. The friends were not so
much shocked or offended, but just amused, and I
seemed to get invited along more often. I have had
several non-nudist friends over the years who did
not object to my nudity around them. In fact, I can't think of anyone who ever said "No! Keep your clothes on!" if I asked them before disrobing. I think most people like to see others
nude, at least sometimes, even if they don't admit it. Maybe Stu is an exception - if he is
really being honest in this forum? Or is he just
argumentative?
My nude experiences, both with other nudes, and with non-nudes, has helped build my confidence in
general. I never encountered any rejection or
serious negativity from others, unless I was truly
out of line by being too blatantly exposed without asking, or too public. There are limits!

[gamblefish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:

PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Way to go Cyndi...OK, somebody better go pick Stu up off the floor. Butt make sure he is still breathing first.


Whoops, sorry for the "butt" Stu...

[healthnudt]

Hey ! Gimme a break ! I joined this board three days ago and have posted twice (well, three times now). 'Til I get the lay of the land here, and learn the limits of tolerance, isn't it wise to err on the side of caution ? The home page said this is a family site.

I know a lot of words to use instead of penis. In other forums I use them unabashedly. and with colorful adjectives. and frequently with much humor. There was some of that in my use of the phrase "small one". It's a shame you missed that.

[nudeM]

healthnudt: Welcome to these forums. Everyone else knew what you were trying to state. Others just can't resist. Have a great time and please post regularly. It's nice to read from new members.

[shãybare]

I, too, welcome you, healthnudt, to the forum. I gathered from your post that you have poor self-image. It's great that you can accept others but it is much more important to accept yourself. Self acceptance is an important part of nudism. Good Luck.

[florida-david]

i was also the skinny white guy afraid to take off his shirt. most of the other kids we hung out with were not so skinny, and had nice tans. so i was always on the "shirts" side of the field games, terrified of being on the "skins". until one day i was on the skins, and ran around without my shirt and had a good time. i was probably around 11. no one picked on me toooo badly, only a little, and since they had all seen me with my shirt off, in all my white fleshed glory, they were used to it after that. then when i got into cars and started to do that all summer, i developed a nice tan and the shirt never went back on. there are always jerks out there who will pick on you for something, oh well