Nudist Resorts, Molestation, and Public Sex [Archive]

greensunshine

12-21-2003, 07:53 PM

I would like to answer several questions regarding my rapes that did occur at the so called resorts.

First size of the park has no bearing on the individuals who were guilty of committing the horible crimes.

One individual was literally courted in every way the park could in order to gain his name as a member...this individual was also someone I thought via chatting with numerous times was a person I could trust...thus when we went for a long walk in a more secluded area of that particular park...that is when he raped me...something that rapist prefer doing...so screaming definitely was not an option at that time...after all if no one is nearby...does screaming do any good???

Another time I was propositioned by a prominite board member who happened to be married...this individual asked me if I would give him a "blow job" since his wife wouldn't...I attempted to report this individual and nothing ever came of it...as far as I am aware...he and his family are still very active in this specific club.

And my very first time visiting a nudist club here in the pacific nw, I was asked by a visitor if he could jack off in my presence...***Note this was the only time that any action ever took place and that was 12 years ago...the rest of the times...I was approached by males regarding sex in an unfavorable way...nothing ever became of it...

But then again if one is the new kid on the block, what are the chances that actions will occur against an existing member in so called good standing and more often than not who is married vs someone who is single and tries to make those who are new to the club feel like they too belong???

Need I say more...other than size of the club has no bearing on actions taken against the one who is guilty of committing the crimes.

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

PS

For now, I will feel safer at the Public Beaches where if something does occur, I know I can safely count on my "Gay Male" friends to come to my rescue.

***One final note regarding Nudist Resorts, Money does not buy safety or security when in the presence of others Some of the safest places are actually out amongst others when nothing can be hidden other than in ones's backpack.***

greensunshine

12-22-2003, 05:54 AM

I would like to add a footnote to actually joining another club...there is only one out there, and it is a non-landed club that membership is only given to those after those investigating have gotten to know others via their website.

The saddest part of this non-landed club is that it is 4 hours away, thus officially joining is not really an option for me considering the distance involved /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NudeAl

12-22-2003, 06:41 AM

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I am truly sorry this happened to you and I really hope this isn't something that goes on often in this resort.

I think the most amazing thing is that you still are interested in the naturist lifestyle. It personally angers and disgusts me that these sexual predators exist at all but that they are able to hide in a naturist venue is doubly irritating. That is one of the places that I have always thought of as a safe place. I guess I shouldn't though as your story shows.

Croydon

12-22-2003, 08:03 AM

To Green and Cyn, i'd like to commend you on battling these set backs. One time is hard enough, but multiple times? I can't possibly fathom.

My Q is this. Because of multiple incidents, why stay in nudism. I would think that after such experiences you would fear being in nudism and going to beaches and resorts or be overwhelmed w/ body shame. Why do you continue to be nudist?

12-22-2003, 09:35 AM

Nudism has nothing to do with what happened to me. I've had just as hard of a time outside the resorts. It is the fault of the individuals and also that of the ones running the clubs for not addressing the problem. I will be a nudist till I die.

It just goes to show that nudists are no better than anyone else and that we are just like the outside world inside our clubs.

greensunshine

12-22-2003, 02:05 PM

I have to agree with Cyndiann on why I too have elected to remain a nudist...Rapist are everywhere and their is no place that they show up including in Church and Social Gatherings.

One of the best protections I have discovered is to sound the alarm in hopes that by my doing so, will prevent another victum of having to live through such a horrible crime.

One final footnote to all those who raped me at the so called resorts, I assumed that just because they had gone through background checks, they could be trusted...how wrong I was to trust these so called men.

And for the record, men do not rape, but savages do...and some of these savages happen to be in positions of power within their clubs and married.

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS

I can't state the following enough with being down on the beach often alone...the safest people I have encountered are the "Gay Men"...for the simple reason, they have no interest in women sexually.

MikeJB

12-22-2003, 06:04 PM

I dont think that these sexual offenders were true nudists because true nudists dont do such things and if I ran that park and I catched them they wouldnt live very long to regret it, theyd be lucky I didnt turn them over to the police. Personally just to keep things simple, id give em a good talking to and then just show em the door. Of course if I was running such a place, nothing like this would happen, because saftey would be my #1 concern. I cant beleive that there was a place at that resort where no one was where you couldnt do anything about it, that seems rather shabby to me because youd think theyd have security and such that if you yelled someone would come running. I think someone oughta cite the owner of that place and make them change the rules or get new management for the place because obviously the current management wasnt up to the task. I feel deeply sorry for what happened to you and I would never go to a nudist resort unless I could trust it and feel safe there. I mean ive heard good things and bad things about both nudist resorts and beaches and ive also heard lots of things to the contrary so I just think it has to do with the place you go to, their policies, the setup there and just using common sense and traveling with several friends around the park so as to not allow someone to rape you.

12-22-2003, 06:30 PM

Mike, nudists are just like everyone else and that includes some of them being capable of sexual harassment and rape, and even pedophilia.

We are in no way immune.

MikeJB

12-22-2003, 06:34 PM

Yeah I wasnt saying that they werent capable of such things, I just think that if youre a "true" nudist/naturist you wouldnt do that sorta thing cuz it goes against most of what we beleive in.

12-22-2003, 07:47 PM

Are these people who molest/rape children in nudist resorts actually NUDISTS, or just perverts who go to a nudist resort to look for victims because the kids are already nude and easier to molest without clothes in the way? Maybe the pervert thinks he would be harder to identify and recognize once he was dressed and outside the resort.

MikeJB

12-22-2003, 07:58 PM

I always thought it didnt matter to pediphiles weither kids are naked or not, rapists or molestors maybe but I think theyre in the same category. Besides most resorts do check alot of these people and most only allow couples and most of the bigger ones kick you out or file charges against you if you even are thought to be sexually abusing a child there. Besides nudist children as its been stated before are much more in tune with their bodies and are much more likely to avoid those people who would hurt them and tell someone if a person tried to do this. I think unless youre a friend or family member of the child or the park has lousy security that would be the only way a kid could be raped or abused. At the smaller venues of course this might be a different story as their policies are more lax and so is their security if there even is any and im sure its much easier at these ones, hell thats why I wouldnt go to those ones unless I was desperate for funds, because id rather pay a little more and feel safer at one of the more official resorts.

Jochanaan

12-22-2003, 08:01 PM

I'd rather not try to define who's a "true nudist/naturist" since there are so many definitions. Unfortunately many of these bad guys might also have strong beliefs regarding nudity. After all, being comfortable with nudity doesn't automatically cure all character defects. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

What I was really after in starting this topic was some hard facts. Does anyone have actual statistics regarding rape or molestation at nudist venues? (Yeah, I know, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Show me the raw data!) I would also like to hear first-hand stories about incidents at nudist venues and how the problem was addressed. If it's not true that there's less rape or molestation at nude beaches or nudist clubs, we shouldn't claim that it is. Falsehoods or reckless disregard for truth doesn't advance our cause.

12-22-2003, 08:03 PM

The ones I was aware of were actual nudists, there to enjoy personal nudity just like everyone else.

Mike, there is no such thing as a "true" nudist. Either you are one or you aren't one and what else you may happen to be isn't relevant whatsoever.

Look up the"No true scottsman fallacy online and see how it parallels your statement.

Suppose I assert that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. You counter this by pointing out that your friend Angus likes sugar with his porridge. I then say "Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This is an example of an ad hoc change being used to shore up an assertion, combined with an attempt to shift the meaning of the words used original assertion; you might call it a combination of fallacies.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#scots

This website is most exellent and you may want to save it. Great points about debating, logical reasoning and such.

MikeJB

12-22-2003, 08:10 PM

Yeah but there is a clear difference between a nudist/naturist and a pediphile, wouldnt you say? I just think my so called "true" nudist would be someone who enjoys nudity and thinks that nudity is wholesome and that the body isnt sometrhing to be shamed about or etc, I mean you get what I mean right? I think if someone is single male/female and you ask them why they are at a nudist resort and they cant give you a good answer or at least something like they enjoy nudity or something like that, id honestly be suspcious of them. I dont think someone who gets sexually excited by kids nude bodies enough to rape/abuse them shouldnt even be there in first place. I mean most regular nudist people dont get excited the way these people do. Im sure im wrong but hey thats just how I see it. I dont mind single male/females going to nudist resorts but those are the type id be a lil leary of.

12-22-2003, 08:20 PM

Mike you are comparing apples and oranges.

You can be one or both or none.

Just like I can be a golfer and a nudist or just a nudist or just a golfer.

There is no reason why a pedophile can't like being nude just for nude's sake.

A pedofile does not go berzerk just because a child is around. It takes a bit more than that. Some go years without offending and some never do.
(wish they all did)

And most pedos aren't single, they are part of a family. Statistics say at least 80% of incidents happen right in the immediate family or close friends, not a stranger.

Bob S.

12-22-2003, 09:03 PM

"First size of the park has no bearing on the individuals who were guilty of committing the horible crimes."

GS, I was not implying that it did. I was just trying to get a picture of the environmnet of the park.

"For now, I will feel safer at the Public Beaches where if something does occur, I know I can safely count on my "Gay Male" friends to come to my rescue."

And that is what is important, having someone whom you have built a real (as opposed to a virtual) relationship and trust with. That is why you feel safer at the beaches.

"Money does not buy safety or security when in the presence of others."

So true, GS.

"I dont think that these sexual offenders were true nudists because true nudists dont do such things"

Mike, a nudist is someone who believes that clothes are unnecessary in certain circumstances and seek out places to be naked (I am not going to differentiate between naturist and nudist). He can have other beliefs and do anything else as well and still be a nudist.

There is an argument that a true Christian cannot be a nudist. We know that to be false.

"I just think my so called "true" nudist would be someone who enjoys nudity and thinks that nudity is wholesome and that the body isnt sometrhing to be shamed about or etc"

And a perv can't believe that as well? A nudist can also be a killer or a racist. Any kind of person can be a nudist according to your definition and still do other things.

"Personally just to keep things simple, id give em a good talking to and then just show em the door."

So if a man rapes a woman at a nudist park that you ran, you would just kick them out? You wouldn't call the police?

"Of course if I was running such a place, nothing like this would happen, because saftey would be my #1 concern."

Safety is always going to be the no. 1 concern at any place. But things are going to happen anyway. You cannot prevent all crimes. Notice that GS' rape happened in a secluded area of the park where no one else was around. Some parks are large in area and you can be alone with no one in sight. You also could not stop anything that went on inside of private residences or tents. The most important thing is how well the park is set up to prevent attacks, how quickly security responds when a crime is discovered, and how they handle the victim and the perpetrator.

"Does anyone have actual statistics regarding rape or molestation at nudist venues? (Yeah, I know, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Show me the raw data!)"

That is also something I am interested in, Jo.

Bob S.

MikeJB

12-22-2003, 11:00 PM

So if a man rapes a woman at a nudist park that you ran, you would just kick them out? You wouldn't call the police?
-------------------------------------------------

Depends on the crime, all im saying is is that I wouldnt want to drag the police and the media into it and cause a scene that might make nudists look bad if other means can be utilized to handle the situation. If someone raped or killed someone then yeah I would call the police or possibly if someone robed someone, depends on what it was and weither I could catch them and make them return the stolen item to the person. Basically what im saying is that if I ran a place like that id try to just use common sense and take action when needed.

greensunshine

12-23-2003, 04:42 AM

I would add something to the punishment that occurs at the resorts...one of the reasons why the police are not contacted is because more often than not, these resorts do not want to draw attention to what actually goes on behind closed doors. Another is, resorts are privately owned by either an individual or a co-op.

The other, is in the case of the rape occuring between two people who know each other, again who takes whose side of the story???

Is the side of the victum taken because she/he says the rapist did something to her/him [or] is the rapist side of the story taken because he/she simply knew that if something was said it would draw attention to the fact that the at some point in time there force was used to get what the rapist wanted. And to actually file charges against the rapist would also bring out the great supposed security that all of these parks profess to have in an attempt to lure new members in....that instead of bringing new members in, it would have the opposite effect and in reality demonstrate how little security actually exists...and for the record, none of the parks I have ever visited have had enough security to prevent "date rape" (technically the correct term for rape that occurs between two people who know each other that are not married to one another).

"Date rapes" are amongst the most difficult to prosecute because of all the underlying factors that lead up to the actual crime...that being "rape". And to go into more detail regarding the definition of "rape", anytime sex is forced upon another individual against their will, that is "rape" even when two people are legally married and sex is occurring.

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Rex

12-23-2003, 06:32 AM

I am not aware of anything like this [rape etc] happening at either of the two clubs or any of the many free beaches I have been to, but it saddens me and I would like to extend my feelings of concern to Greensunshine and Cindyann and to any other women, or men, who have suffered in this way.
I just think that we should all look out for one another and if there are predators in our midst, work together to set them up and expose them.
If they thought this was likely to happen, most of these miserable cowards would not dare offend.

MikeJB

12-23-2003, 08:33 AM

Like I said I think you just have to decide the severity of the situation and decide what the best action to take is. I mean if you get rid of these people calmly and quietly, I mean yeah sure you might be able to let em get away but I just think that if you call the police, you bring the whole media scene into the place and you know how the media treats nudity. I just think you oughta deal with it clamly and quietly and then just beef up security and security measures so its less likely to happen again. I think after you let em go you oughta call the cops on em and say you saw them OUTSIDE the nudist resort and that they TRIED to get in but didnt suceed then it would be less of a problem than if the police caught the guy inside the park because then you still keep your image and the guy still gets apprehended. I mean you end up lieing to the cops but its the better of two evils, either you get rid of the rapist quietly or the media comes in, ruins our image and most likely will make the park close its doors.

12-23-2003, 08:54 AM

So what you are saying Mike is to let a rapist get away with it so the club's reputation isn't tainted. Not in MY lifetime!

GS also had the choice to call the police and evidently she didn't. She should be doing us all a favor by stating which club it is so nobody else falls into the same situation.

Keeping quiet only creates more problems. We have had countless cases where sexual predators were caught inside nudist clubs and absolutely none were shut down. It just happened at Whitethorn.

greensunshine

12-23-2003, 11:40 AM

Mike,

Might I tell you the main difference in someone who has been caught and someone who hasn't.

Let me start with...no matter how many background checks you do on someone...if they don't have an existing record anywhere...it isn't gonna show up anywhere.

The other, is first you have to offend before you can be labeled an offender...if one has no record...that too won't show up anywhere where they have offended...and there offenders out there who have never been caught anywhere...but they still have offended...

And finally there are offenders out there who have offended as minors, and those records are sealed once these individuals reach a certain age in all states.

The only way to stop the offender is for him/her not to offend in the first place...plain and simple as that.

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

12-23-2003, 12:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by greensunshine:

Let me start with...no matter how many background checks you do on someone...if they don't have an existing record anywhere...it isn't gonna show up anywhere.

The other, is first you have to offend before you can be labeled an offender...if one has no record...that too won't show up anywhere where they have offended...and there offenders out there who have never been caught anywhere...but they still have offended...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So GS....did you report your offender? Did you make sure he would have a record to save the next one from being raped?

I did not in any of the three cases. They were all a long time ago and I wish I had now.

NakedGary

12-23-2003, 02:33 PM

MikeJB you?re totally wrong on ideas how to handle cases or even suspected sexual molestation or rape at any resort, club, beach or anywhere.

The nudist clubs and resorts do not operate as you envision, and all suspected, reported, or suspicious activity of any sexual nature or assault is dealt with severely and lawfully.

Your ideas of judgment of severity, lying or false reporting, and calling police on someone seen externally is laughable, ridiculous, and just does not happen or these offenders would be at free reign.

NakedGary

Jochanaan

12-23-2003, 02:51 PM

Keeping quiet is not the answer. But I have heard how hard it is for a victim actually to come forward and press charges. She has to be prepared to face the defense lawyers' digging up every scrap of her background, especially her sexual history, and shining the worst possible light on it. But such lawyers forget that sexual history has no bearing on what the man did or didn't. Rape is rape, whether between strangers, on a date, or between husband and wife.

If one of our own is raped or molested, we must be prepared to defend her and stand behind her (or him).

KENNAKED

12-23-2003, 03:27 PM

Hi everyone, this is my first time writing in forums and I feel that i need to share with you something that happened at a club I used to belong to and their policy when it comes to keeping us all safe while visiting naturists clubs.

I was a member of Lupin naturist club in Los Gatos Ca from 1999 to 2003. Back in August of 2003 Lupins office was advised by a long time member that she had observed a man masturbate, ejaculate, clean himself up at the door of his truck in the parking lot. He left the property immediately. The woman that observed this reported the incident to the Lupin office and asked for follow up within 30 days and told the office that if they did not follow in the specified time that she would file a report against the man with the Sheriffs office. Approximately 7 days later the offender returned to Lupin and was questioned about the incident and of course he denied it and he was allowed back onto the property on a probationary status and told that if he did it again he would be asked to leave.

He never should have been allowed onto the property again after the first report. Lupin failed to follow up with the member that reported the incident and she filed the report with the sheriffs office and cancelled her membership as she could no longer support a club that allows this kind of behavior.

She told me about the incident and I thank god my kids didn't see the incident as we were there that day. I wrote to the general manager at the time who has since become the owner of Lupin and I asked him if he had changed policy in allowing this kind of behavior or if he had lost his mind.

He never answered me. Instead he wrote an e-mail to the lady that reported the incident initially and in the middle of that e-mail said that my membership was cancelled. I have asked him repeatedly to explain his actions and he refuses.

He has refused to return my membership/initiation fee and I have taken legal action. Lupin Naturist Club is not a safe place and certainly not the family naturist club that it has always claimed to be whenthey let this sort of behavior go on.

I welcome your comments and thank you for your patience in the length of this e-mail but I feel deeply that all naturists that love good wholesome family naturism need to stay away from a club such as this or at least be warned of what is allowed to go on all in order to cllect a lousy $25.00 day use fee from a non member. It is people like this that give naturism a bad name.

NakedGary

12-23-2003, 04:10 PM

I agree keeping quiet does nothing to apprehend or convict the offenders.

As Jochanaan said rape is rape, but ideas of members, management, or victims of determining severity or fact is up to the courts.

Any false, misleading reporting or information would surely be grounds for dismissal in favor of the offender, and would not be beneficial in support of the fellow nudist or victim.

Most resorts and clubs have in place means of preventing return or visits or acceptance at any of sanction clubs or resorts in the network of ones who are reported, suspected, or convicted of any objectionable offenses, or suspicious activities, or violation of code or club regulations, even without law enforcement, or court involvement.

12-23-2003, 04:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KENNAKED:
Hi everyone, this is my first time writing in forums and I feel that i need to share with you something that happened at a club I used to belong to and their policy when it comes to keeping us all safe while visiting naturists clubs.

I was a member of Lupin naturist club in Los Gatos Ca from 1999 to 2003. Back in August of 2003 Lupins office was advised by a long time member that she had observed a man masturbate, ejaculate, clean himself up at the door of his truck in the parking lot. He left the property immediately. The woman that observed this reported the incident to the Lupin office and asked for follow up within 30 days and told the office that if they did not follow in the specified time that she would file a report against the man with the Sheriffs office. Approximately 7 days later the offender returned to Lupin and was questioned about the incident and of course he denied it and he was allowed back onto the property on a probationary status and told that if he did it again he would be asked to leave.

He never should have been allowed onto the property again after the first report. Lupin failed to follow up with the member that reported the incident and she filed the report with the sheriffs office and cancelled her membership as she could no longer support a club that allows this kind of behavior.

She told me about the incident and I thank god my kids didn't see the incident as we were there that day. I wrote to the general manager at the time who has since become the owner of Lupin and I asked him if he had changed policy in allowing this kind of behavior or if he had lost his mind.

He never answered me. Instead he wrote an e-mail to the lady that reported the incident initially and in the middle of that e-mail said that my membership was cancelled. I have asked him repeatedly to explain his actions and he refuses.

He has refused to return my membership/initiation fee and I have taken legal action. Lupin Naturist Club is not a safe place and certainly not the family naturist club that it has always claimed to be whenthey let this sort of behavior go on.

I welcome your comments and thank you for your patience in the length of this e-mail but I feel deeply that all naturists that love good wholesome family naturism need to stay away from a club such as this or at least be warned of what is allowed to go on all in order to cllect a lousy $25.00 day use fee from a non member. It is people like this that give naturism a bad name. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you and she may have over reacted a bit. All the guy did was relieve himself and probably thought he was being discrete by doing it in his truck and didn't know he was being watched. It isn't like he was standing next to the pool in front of everybody. I fail to see how this guy was a danger to anyone. Are you saying that "wholesome" nudists never masturbate? What makes him a danger to others? What charge would the police have gotten him for? It was most likely not the best of choices to do what he did but I don't see him as dangerous to anyone.

NakedGary

12-23-2003, 04:28 PM

KENNAKED

I believe "Lupin Naturist Resort" has been sold to new ownership, and is operating under new management sometime within the last quarter.

INA www.clothesfree.com (http://www.clothesfree.com) has complete coverage and a video interview with the new manager and corporate owner on INA Video Edition #40 Recorded December 9th, 2003 available for viewing or download on this site, F.Y.I.

NakedGary

KENNAKED

12-23-2003, 05:33 PM

Dear Souls Searchers.com,Mynudelife.com and Naked gary. In regards to the man masturbating in Lupin Naturist Club Parking lot. Thanks for your feedback. I want to clarify a few things. The man that masturbated in the parking lot did so in plain view of anyone at Lupin. If you have ever been there you would know that the parking lot is surrounded by houses on one side and the lawn on the opposite side and tennis courts at one end. The man was not discreet in masturbating at the door of his truck while standing in the parking lot. As far as what crime he may have been charged with by the authorities, public indecency comes to mind and whatever elso the authorities might have chosen had the authorities been summoned by Lupin and the individual been detained. Your claim that The woman and i may have overreacted is ludicrous. The man violated the Lupin agreement and the member complied with the Lupin Agreement. It clearly says that Masturbation is Unacceptable behavior in ther agreement and members are encouraged to report such incidents. The place claims to be a family naturist resort and the Lupin agreement encourages members to report unacceptable behavior and the lady did it and Lupin failed to act appropriately. Masturbation is great by both male and female but it needs to be done in the proper place. In a parking lot of a Naturist club that has always claimed to be a family naturist resort is not the proper place. I am well aware of Lupin being sold and under new management and this act all happened under the then general manager and subsequent new owner Ed Dennis of Lupin and I have seen the video and interview #40 on clothesfree.com. I am a member of Clothefree.com and support them.

NakedGary

12-23-2003, 05:35 PM

KENNAKED

Being second, or passed on information, how do you know he wasn't just discreetly urinating behind his vehicle door and milking or wiping the last urine drops before his drive onwards.

The police would unlikely report or cite this person for so called or suspected masturbation, ejaculation or relief on private property supposedly at privacy of his door in the parking lot with expectation of not being viewed by voyeur or someone peeping or being confronted.

Does she have and evidence or is it here say?

As third party involvement other than putting the manager on the spot, I don't think you should have had your membership canceled, but that?s up to the discretion of the manager, and being private, they have the right to refuse, cancel, or terminate membership or service to anyone.

NakedGary

KENNAKED

12-23-2003, 06:10 PM

Dear Gary,The man was not urinating and even if he was the bathroom was less than 25 yards away. The woman that witnessed the masturbator has been going to Lupin for over 30 years and is the mother to 2 children both of whom are in college and she owns hr own business. She was seated in her car taking a long distance phone call and witnessed the guy masturbate, ejaculate into the parking lot clean himself off and she recorded his truck license number and reported him. She waited 30 days for Lupin to give her follow up and they failed. She would never file a false police report. She reported what she saw and the new owner of Lupin Ed Dennis "slammed" her for doing so and I have a copy of his e mail to her. Pedophiles, sex offenders are never known to you or I until they are reported and this guy now has been reported and has a record for his violation at the private club that he visited.

stevenf64

12-23-2003, 07:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
I think you and she may have over reacted a bit. All the guy did was relieve himself and probably thought he was being discrete by doing it in his truck and didn't know he was being watched. It isn't like he was standing next to the pool in front of everybody. I fail to see how this guy was a danger to anyone. Are you saying that "wholesome" nudists never masturbate? What makes him a danger to others? What charge would the police have gotten him for? It was most likely not the best of choices to do what he did but I don't see him as dangerous to anyone. [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I always thought that some of your posts were a little off BUT YOU ARE OFF YOU ROCKER On this one. NO harm what are you talking abou what if YOU had a kid that witness this. NICE IMAGE that we are trying to portray here.. Would you allow this at a kiddy park? Why not. According to you hes no danger...

Bob S.

12-23-2003, 08:17 PM

"one of the reasons why the police are not contacted is because more often than not, these resorts do not want to draw attention to what actually goes on behind closed doors."

I would seriously hope that is not the case, but unfortunately, I am sure than in a number of cases, that happens. And whenever it does happen, espeically for serious crimes, it should be comsidered criminal. To willfully not report a crime is akin to being complicit with it.

"none of the parks I have ever visited have had enough security to prevent "date rape""

Well GS, date rape almost can never be prevented by authorities who are unaware of the background or intentios of the potential rapist. You even said that they "are amongst the most difficult to prosecute because of all the underlying factors that lead up to the actual crime." So unless the populace is willing to give up most of their rights to privacy, date rapes will occur.

"I mean if you get rid of these people calmly and quietly, I mean yeah sure you might be able to let em get away but I just think that if you call the police, you bring the whole media scene into the place and you know how the media treats nudity."

Mike, I would rather risk the possible bad PR by calling the authorities and having the guy arrested. In that case, you could actually be in an advantage if the media comes along because you could show that you are serious about sexual offenses. But if you just let the guy go and he rapes again elsewhere and gets caught, the nudist victim may come forward and tell the authorities that he raped her as well. And then, the nudist park would get some of the worst PR they could get.

"I think after you let em go you oughta call the cops on em and say you saw them OUTSIDE the nudist resort and that they TRIED to get in but didnt suceed then it would be less of a problem than if the police caught the guy inside the park because then you still keep your image and the guy still gets apprehended."

So what you are saying is to file a false police report. That'll look good in the media's eyes. I think that in this case, the truth to the police is the best thing to do, both morally and PR wise. You can always spin the rape by saying that the park does not tolerate it and is very protective of its visitors and members, but you cannot spin failing to report a rape or lying to the police. And in the latter case, the park may have to be shut down because the owner is in jail.

Just curious Mike, would you call the police if the victim was a child?

Ken, what became of the man after the woman called the authorities? And just for a clarification, Lupin did follow up on her complaint. The result just wasn't what the lady wanted. She was telling Lupin that if the man wasn't banned, that she would call the cops.

Bob S.

NakedGary

12-23-2003, 09:07 PM

Cyndiann previously answered the current page topic eloquently in a short paragraph:

"I think you and she may have over reacted a bit. All the guy did was relieve himself and probably thought he was being discrete by doing it in his truck and didn't know he was being watched. It isn't like he was standing next to the pool in front of everybody. I fail to see how this guy was a danger to anyone. Are you saying that "wholesome" nudists never masturbate? What makes him a danger to others? What charge would the police have gotten him for? It was most likely not the best of choices to do what he did but I don't see him as dangerous to anyone".

I fail to see where any criminal or sexual charges or legal actions have taken place as a result of reporting this private observation in a private parking lot to the resort management and the sheriff department.

The lack of action by the resort and sheriff confirm no criminal, sexual, civil, public, or dangerous act endangered anyone or was prosecutable public law.

As this private observance offended her, she took the correct action by reporting it to resort office so there would be a record of the incident on file.

Her decision to terminate membership over this observance was her choice.

The manager and sheriff took no legal action as No Crime, or Public Indecency occurred, No one was Detained, & the Sheriff was not Summoned.

Your termination was probably the result of 3rd party involvement in another?s person?s private information or affairs, and putting the manager on the spot, and demanding or challenging him for information as to his action or non action.

The preference or word of a short time member/visitor [still frequenting and using the facility] verses a 30 year member is very interesting indeed.

Could there be more to this story or involvement than told?

Rex

12-23-2003, 09:16 PM

About a year ago, I was on our local free beach, when I saw a guy about 20 yards further down the beach, lying on his back, masturbating.
I was with a lady I had got to know at a dance and I was introducing her to public nudism.
I went over and told him that what he was doing was not appropriate and was likely to give the beach a bad name and that if he wanted to do that, he should go into the dunes.
I said that, next time I was on the beach, I would have a camera with me and if I saw him masturbating, I would take pictures and give copies to the local city council, the police and the media.
I asked him if he understood. He said he understood, did not argue and immediately left the beach. I have not seen him since.
I am not the biggest guy on the beach and far from the youngest, but I will not tolerate that kind of behavior.
I believe many of my fellow beachgoers would not go public, not because they approve of that kind of behavior, but they would fear that kind of publicity could get the beach closed to nudism. I think we are just as entitled to the protection of the law as anyone else and if we are perceived as tolerating inappropriate behavior, that is more likely to put us off-side with the authorities.
Fortunately, my new friend was a mature, sensible woman in her late fifties, accepted that behavior was not typical and approved of my action.

greensunshine

12-24-2003, 05:54 AM

For those I may offend or may disagree with regarding my attitude towards public beaches vs resorts, my following thoughts are not intended to be taken that I do approve of such behavior, because I don't...I am just somewhat more tolerant because of knowing what can and can not successfully be done at such places especially with all the major budget cutbacks that have occured in the states of Oregon/California/Washington and other states/regions as well, these past few years.

I am totally aware that some things are easier to control than others, such as individuals who elect to masterbate or have sex on the beach, more often than not in the bushes away from most that may come in close proximity to such behavior. And when one considers how long this practice has been allowed to go on without serious ramifications...the max anyone can be charged with provided these acts occur between two consenting adults is a misdomeaner...the same as when someone elects to go nude on a beach that has been designated as "Not Clothing Optional". No offense, but with this in mind, one of the things I have spoken with some who have actively participated in such acts either alone or with others is knowing and enjoying the stimulation that does occur...after all how many people aren't stimulated in some way when knowing that being able to have discrete and at times open sex in such settings can be very pleasurable and at the max carries at best a charge of being convicted of a misdomeaner?

What I have a problem with is, with the resorts...often many of these are comprised of small groups of people who set the rules for others even if they know they too are quilty of the same crime others are convicted of. Many of these clubs live by the motto of "Do as I say and not as I do". One particular club I investigated had such harsh rules for single men regarding what they feared most in this population, and at the same time, a convicted child molestor sat on their board. Last word I recieved was that he had stepped down as a board member...but that was only hearsay...and not confirmed as gospel...

Regarding most of these clubs, self policeing is what often happens and more often with the victum is ones word against the others...and more often than not the guilty party knows enough people that he/she can Bull-Sh@t their way through whatever takes place because of that it is often easier to walk away knowing the victum can only do so much...something I had to do with the last rape...he was one of their "In People" and I was someone who happened to enjoy the sun...and often alone or with others too who didn't happen to be a part of their "IN Group". *Footnote, to the final outcome regarding that rape, in the end this particular club lost in excess of 5 new members and several prospective ones...and for the record, I did report it to a board member who happened to be not one of their so popular members...in the end he/she was chastized for saying something to me for telling me what was going on without their approval...just goes to show that the Good ol' boys still are in power and doing well at the expense of others...

Rape can and often does place in these resorts, but then again so do other social crimes such as children being molested by more often than not, people these children know...

No offense, but when one is going through hormonal times and at the same time experiencing other trials in their life, such as either being in a sexless relationship with another person, rape does occur...for many rapist, being in control even for a few minutes, heights the sexual act beyond what any normal person will able to comprehend... For verification of this information, just ask any inmate who is serving time for such acts, or an excon who knows that it isn't the actual act that gives them the satisfaction they are looking for...it is the rush that leads up to the act...most will tell you that if they could undo the actual act, they would do so at the cost of whatever it takes...and for most rapes/molestings, these are never reported to anyone...it took 6 years before I had the courage to tell a soul that I had been molested by a family member...it took another several years before I could face and except that the first time I had sex, it was in actuality "Rape" and nothing more, again this more common than not, with our young people having sex.

Rape is an issue that most parents are guilty of not teaching their children the true definition of...I too must confess to not doing so with my children before they became sexually active. Some rapes can be prevented, but others can not...such as in the case of "Date Rape".

I knew all of my rapist, and some well enough to go for a causual walk with without a chaperone...as was the case of my last rape at a nudist resort...but then again so did others he too had come in contact with over a long period of time...and only after some the act had occured did I realize that had been his intent from the beginning...he had no record of rape...and for the record, it is against the law to do a background check on someone without their consent...so even had a background check been done on him...nothing would have indicated his intent with anyone at this resort...or anywhere else...

It is because of my bad experiences at the clubs I visited, I opted not to renew my membership in AANR...or join anyother Nudist Organization...I know in my heart and experiences, that security/protection is impossible at any of these places...at least to the extent that one thinks could be possible...especially for singles...and females...but then again males are raped too...so these clubs in reality, offer little if any protection from the very people they profess to protect.

Security systems/gates are more often than not, just something that exists in a specific location...if one wants to gain entrance to a club...there are more ways in and out...especially when it comes to being on the property...a Great Example of a gated community is "Point Roberts, WA" and this is not a nudist resort but a great example of what is considered a gated community complete with border guards, water and air /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.pointrobertsusa.com

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jochanaan

12-24-2003, 07:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by greensunshine:
No offense, but when one is going through hormonal times and at the same time experiencing other trials in their life, such as either being in a sexless relationship with another person, rape does occur...for many rapist, being in control even for a few minutes, heights the sexual act beyond what any normal person will able to comprehend... For verification of this information, just ask any inmate who is serving time for such acts, or an excon who knows that it isn't the actual act that gives them the satisfaction they are looking for...it is the rush that leads up to the act...

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That makes a lot of sense, Greensunshine. But it doesn't make it right.

I have the same hormones as any other man, and I've been lonely a lot--but I've never committed rape. Perhaps only a fraction of rapes get reported; even so, the majority of men do not commit rape. Either the thought never comes up, or the man finds some way of resisting the idea. I can honestly say that the idea that I would force any woman to consent to sex with me has never occurred, because of my underlying acceptance of every woman as a person, not an object--as equal to myself.

There is no justification, or excuse, for sexual violence or coercion.

greensunshine

12-24-2003, 09:18 AM

I would like to add the reason I opted to use Point Roberts as an example and that being that considering the bounderies of most resorts, at least 3 are privately owned by someone else...thus enabling someone to enter illegally even when fences are erected around the property, as is the case of Pt Roberts, only their fences are in the form of water...

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

greensunshine

12-24-2003, 09:28 AM

Jochanaan,

I totally agree with you but not everyone does especially when they aren't thinking straight...as in the case of rape, molesting, and Public Sex...If they did, our prisons wouldn't be as full as they are...and not just of men, but women too of all ages...all of the above sex crimes and acts are not just reserved for the young, old folks are just as capable of being guilty too...

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NudeAl

12-24-2003, 09:39 AM

I think this is really a poor reflection on nudist clubs in general. I know there is often a difference between what is reported and what actually takes place but to allow this to occur and not do anything about it is terrible. The accused have rights but so do the victems.

I am afraid the real reason these things aren't reported is fear of bad press and a drop in income. Sooner or later what comes around goes around and they will eventually get paid back. Someday, someone may not put up with this behavior and they will have to go to court over this. Then their prior bad acts, by ignoring you, will come to light. I hope they sue the pants off them.

No one can ever claim they weren't able to control themselves and this excuse really chaps my a**!! These cimes are about power and being in control not about sex or love or desire. They are usually committed by those who feel powerless in their normal lives so they can feel powerful and in control.

It seems like some on this board are sanctioning public sex. It is not and should not be our position that sex in public is alright. This is one of the main reasons that we have had so much trouble ligitimizing nude recreation. In the publics mind nudity equals sex and this is not the case. Or so we say, if we change that we would end up setting ourselves up for all kinds of stuff. There are plenty of other places where those who desire to can have sex. They would take advantage of open minded nudists and ruin our reputation in the process.

There is a time and place for everything. I just think we have to be even more vigilent than the rest of society to protect ourselves against sexual predators. We must deal with them strongly and severly. I don't doubt that the events decribed here took place. I think it is a sad reflection on us that we would allow this to happen and not take appropriate action.

MikeJB

12-24-2003, 09:45 AM

Yeah I wouldnt want the rape and stuff to happen at the clubs or resorts either but if you tell the police about it, it just shows that youre security is lax and if you get a pattern of this happening there then it just shows the textile people how dangerous it is to operate one of these clubs and they'll try to shut you down.

NudeAl

12-24-2003, 10:31 AM

Hey rapes occur everywhere! So why would they be more inclined to shut down a nudist resort? This dosen't make sense to me. Crime is crime it needs to be punished no matter where it occurs.

MikeJB

12-24-2003, 06:13 PM

because people = nudity to crime and they would assume ignorantly that somehow the nudity was involved or even assisted in the crime being commited and somehow persuaded the person to commit rape. Its just like how people = nudity to sex, the same goes for crime in some areas and all some people need is some reason to close these places down and theyll try to do it. Its funny how down in florida they wanna close the nudist youth camps and in fact no crime has been done there but those people still think some harm is being done to the children even though ever measure has been taken to ensure that this sort of thing doesnt occur. People are just paranoid about nudity, why give them one more reason to be. We wanna convince them that it isnt bad, not give them another excuse to bash us.

NuTex

12-24-2003, 06:15 PM

A very disturbing news report
Man accused of nudist colony rapes (http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/10/nud121003.html)

NuTex

12-24-2003, 07:29 PM

I think rape in a resort should be reported not only to the resort owners but to the police. It should be dealt with promptly to let people know that this sort of thing will NOT be tolerated!

Yes, there's the possibility of bad publicity, but the message can be gotten out that there is ZERO tolerance for deviant behavior like that. If the resort owners won't co-operate, then I would personally get the police and the press involved and let everyone know that not only does rape or child molestation occur at that resort, but the owners overlook it and won't help the victim. If they look the other way and won't help the victim, then they should be closed down so that it won't happen there again.

I have ZERO tolerance or sympathy for predators or ANYONE who helps them by trying to sweep their perverted behavior under the rug. Should we feel sorry for predators just because they had a miserable childhood? So did I and a whole lot of other people, but none of us go out and prey on the innocent because we were abused.

The story says he is accused of "digitally raping" her. What kind of rape is that?

MikeJB

12-24-2003, 07:45 PM

Yeah I dont have any tolerance for rape either and my previous statements had more to do with lesser crimes than that and just basically was saying that certain issues can be dealt with by the owner while things like rape are best left to the cops to deal with.

MikeJB

12-24-2003, 08:10 PM

What does "digital rape" mean? Did this guy chat with this girl over the internet and like have cyber sex with her or something? Not that I dont find that questionable, but for it to fall under rape, doesnt it have to be real sexual intercourse to make it real rape. I just thought that rape is having sex with someone against their will and this doesnt fall under that for 2 reasons 1) its not real sex and 2) if she responded to him, it was obviously willingly because she could easily avoid him over the internet. I can understand if this happened over the internet at a nudist resort because that would be harder to catch than the real thing. So yeah im just curious exactly what was going on with that situation because depending on the details of it probably would suggest that theyd handle it much differently.

sawdust

12-24-2003, 09:04 PM

I am only supposing, cause I really don't know for sure, that a "digital rape" could refer to the insertion of one or more fingers (sometimes called digits) into one or more of the victoms lower body cavities. Given the pre-teen age of the child, and the age of the assailent, it seems most likely to be the definition you are looking for. He is a very SICK man! Sawdust

MikeJB

12-24-2003, 09:09 PM

Yeah but wouldnt that be oral sex? because the male genitals areint being inserted? Is there any law against that or any law that specifys the age for weither that is legal or not? I mean I know traditional sexual rape is illegal for people that are so far apart age wise like that but I dont know how the law funtions when its just oral sex like that, because its technically not even really sex. Thats just my 2 cents worth and I get what you meant by the digital *digits* part /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just the word digital usually means to me that it would involve some sort of computer and I would think any average joe reading that article would be under the same asumption.

Bob S.

12-24-2003, 09:40 PM

"For those I may offend or may disagree with regarding my attitude towards public beaches vs resorts.."

GS, let me assure you that I cannot be offended by your opinions. You have come to your conclusion through some serious life lessons.

"I know in my heart and experiences, that security/protection is impossible at any of these places...at least to the extent that one thinks could be possible...especially for singles...and females...but then again males are raped too...so these clubs in reality, offer little if any protection from the very people they profess to protect."

But realize that two of the crimes, date rape and child molestation, are two of the hardest crimes to prevent with the familiarity and trust that the victim has for the perp.

"because people = nudity to crime"

No Mike, they equate nudity with sex.

"but if you tell the police about it, it just shows that youre security is lax and if you get a pattern of this happening there then it just shows the textile people how dangerous it is to operate one of these clubs and they'll try to shut you down."

If your security is lax, that is a problem that must be fixed. And if there is a pattern of sexual assaults at a nudist park, then maybe it should be shut down. Hiding the problem does not make it go away. It makes it harder to fight. A nudist park with a working relationship with the community and the police department will survive a lot longer than one who hides its problems behind its walls.

"Yeah I dont have any tolerance for rape either and my previous statements had more to do with lesser crimes than that and just basically was saying that certain issues can be dealt with by the owner while things like rape are best left to the cops to deal with."

Now you are just backstepping. In virtually all of your posts so far on this topic, you have suggested either not reporting the rapes, falsifying a police report, and covering them up quietly all in an effort to protect the image of the club. None of these will help the victim of the rape. And SHE is the most important person in this topic. Not the owner or the park or its image.

"What does "digital rape" mean?"

sawdust was right. It is rape with a foreign object. Either fingers or something else, not the penis.

"2) if she responded to him, it was obviously willingly because she could easily avoid him over the internet."

That Mike, is disturbing. You are blaming the victim for the sexual conversation? If a ten-year-old girl chats with a 40-year-old man, you are suggesting that the girl should be responsible for stopping the online relationship? That is like saying that a girl who is having a sexual relationship with a 40-year-old man should be able to stop it just by not seeing him anymore.

But one thing that I would like to know regarding the story was how the police were notified.

Bob S.

MikeJB

12-24-2003, 10:08 PM

"because people = nudity to crime"

No Mike, they equate nudity with sex.
------------------------------------------------

Yeah but some people just find nudity to be wrong and think that because someone is nude it must mean that they are up to something no good because to them no normal good decent person would go around naked unless they intended to do something wrong and to some people this wouldnt just be confined to sex, although that is usually the first thing on their minds.

-------------------------------------------------
"but if you tell the police about it, it just shows that youre security is lax and if you get a pattern of this happening there then it just shows the textile people how dangerous it is to operate one of these clubs and they'll try to shut you down."

If your security is lax, that is a problem that must be fixed. And if there is a pattern of sexual assaults at a nudist park, then maybe it should be shut down. Hiding the problem does not make it go away. It makes it harder to fight. A nudist park with a working relationship with the community and the police department will survive a lot longer than one who hides its problems behind its walls.
-------------------------------------------------

Okay, I already said that statement was a bunch of crap. I usually ramble on sometimes and say such things and dont really look them over thoroughly. Although I do think that the nudist resort does have a problem if they are doing everything correct and the community and police still have issues with them, thats when itd be hard to call them for every little issue, thats kind of more of what I meant, mostly about nudist resorts/clubs that exist in areas where the people dont really support them or just tolerate them and a few complaints would be sufficient for them to order the place closed down when all that would be needed was better security or new maanagement.

------------------------------------------------
"Yeah I dont have any tolerance for rape either and my previous statements had more to do with lesser crimes than that and just basically was saying that certain issues can be dealt with by the owner while things like rape are best left to the cops to deal with."

Now you are just backstepping. In virtually all of your posts so far on this topic, you have suggested either not reporting the rapes, falsifying a police report, and covering them up quietly all in an effort to protect the image of the club. None of these will help the victim of the rape. And SHE is the most important person in this topic. Not the owner or the park or its image.
-------------------------------------------------

Yeah ok, those things are wrong and yes I am kind of contradicting myself, honestly I havent felt really good the past few days and ive been saying alot of stuff that is really bogus and sounds stupid, im actually feeling better now and if I wouldve just been paying more attention then I wouldve used a bit more common sense and not typed up a bunch of dumb garbage that no one would beleive.

-------------------------------------------------
"What does "digital rape" mean?"

sawdust was right. It is rape with a foreign object. Either fingers or something else, not the penis.
-------------------------------------------------

Yea so its not real sex basically, just oral sex.

-------------------------------------------------
"2) if she responded to him, it was obviously willingly because she could easily avoid him over the internet."

That Mike, is disturbing. You are blaming the victim for the sexual conversation? If a ten-year-old girl chats with a 40-year-old man, you are suggesting that the girl should be responsible for stopping the online relationship? That is like saying that a girl who is having a sexual relationship with a 40-year-old man should be able to stop it just by not seeing him anymore.
-------------------------------------------------

Something that happens online and something that happens with both people in the bedroom are two different situations and the girl being online would have more control of the situation than if she was actually with the person. She could actually chose to end the conversation, whereas if it was real he probably would have her held against her will and she wouldnt have any choice, that was the only comparision I was making. Although for parents to allow a 5 year old to be on a computer unmoitored and talking to a sicko pervert that is 45 years old just sounds negligent to me so really its the parents fault for not watching her and making sure this incident never occured. Of course if this was real sex then well it might be a different story but if she was a nudist child and was brought up the right way she shouldve known better than this and even so such a little girl shouldnt be left alone where such an old guy could do such a thing to her anyways. Im sorry if I confused you yet again /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Bob S.

12-24-2003, 10:35 PM

I had no idea that just using one's fingers in place of the penis would be called rape. It used to called fondling. Anyway, he deserves whatever he gets for that sick action.

Mike, oral sex is using the mouth.

TXK NUDE

12-25-2003, 02:52 AM

This is what I used to tell the kids in my youth group about sex...especially after the Bill CLinton fiasco.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Sex has occured when any part of your body has entered or been entered by any part of their body. I don't care if they stick their finger in your ear! Its sex, period.

Rape has occured when any part of their body enters or is entered by any part of your body without consent. Again, if they stick their finger in your ear without your consent, it's rape! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, I know this definition is a bit extreme, but when dealing with teens who will try to "but, what if.." their way out of anything, sometimes ou have to take an extreme stance to make a point.

I am an adult survivor of sexual abuse and my wife was raped by a date when she was fifteen. We absolutely HATE rapists and child molesters. If being a bit extreme is what is needed to protect our children and young girls from these predators then I say "String 'em up from the highest tree!"

One of the reasons I became a nudist was because I thought it would help me overcome some of the issues I had been dealing with regarding my own sexual abuse, and I wanted to help my own children be protected from these predators. I've been called "extreme" and "purist" on these forums, especially in regards to erections and public sex at resorts, but I don't care. If i can protect my family and some other family from the horror of having a child molested or a young woman from being raped because I have been extreme, then I'll be extreme until the day I die.

Croydon

12-25-2003, 04:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
Yeah but wouldnt that be oral sex? because the male genitals areint being inserted? Is there any law against that or any law that specifys the age for weither that is legal or not? I mean I know traditional sexual rape is illegal for people that are so far apart age wise like that but I dont know how the law funtions when its just oral sex like that, because its technically not even really sex. Thats just my 2 cents worth and I get what you meant by the digital *digits* part /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just the word digital usually means to me that it would involve some sort of computer and I would think any average joe reading that article would be under the same asumption. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Inserting your finger into someone, also called fingering, isn't oral sex. Look up the word oral, it is "giving through, or involving the mouth. Fingering is a form of foreplay it doesn't involve the mouth so it isn't oral sex. Just because it doesnt involve insertion doesn't mean it is oral sex.

Rape is anytime someone forces him/herself sexually onto another when the party doesn't give consent, esp. when he/she repeatedly says NO.

greensunshine

12-25-2003, 04:20 AM

Mike,

No offense, but there is a reason why most BB's have Button designed for "Previewing your Post"...and as you openly admitted, this is something that definitly helps us keep our foot out of our mouths /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

"Okay, I already said that statement was a bunch of crap. I usually ramble on sometimes and say such things and dont really look them over thoroughly."
--------------------------------------------------

It is also better so say something that is worth reading, than it is to simply write something to have your name out there in BB land...and as I PM'd you earlier...it does make a difference who elects to and elects not to read your posts...it is my suspicions, at the moment because of several things not only I, but others have seen/read in your posts... your posts fall somewhere in the middle of the two areas.

This is a BB with a lot of very intelligent/mature people and just for the record, age does not contitute maturity nor intelligence.

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

greensunshine

12-25-2003, 04:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:

Yea so its not real sex basically, just oral sex.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mike, I have another question for you..."What is Oral Sex then???" If Oral Sex is not Sex according to your definition...

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS

Inquiring minds would like to know /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

stevenf64

12-25-2003, 05:23 AM

12-25-2003, 05:53 AM

I always proofread everything I write before and after I post it. I almost always miss some typo and have to click on the "edit/delete" button and change it. Even then I don't always catch every typo. Punctuation is very important in being able to understand what someone writes. Without periods, commas and apostrophes in the right places, it's very difficult to know where one thought ends and another begins. Without some kind of structure to sentences, it all runs together and is impossible to read. I realize that not everyone makes or made A's in English in school as I did, and I will get criticized for posting this--as I did before. However, why post something that people can't read or understand? By the way, Math and English where the only things I did well in; there was nothing else I liked.

greensunshine

12-25-2003, 07:15 AM

Jon,

I for one am glad you proof read what you post, it definitely makes what you are trying to say easier to understand...I try and do the same, even if means I have to edit my own posts...and with some of the topics I have replied to lately, and with some of what I for one, feel is important for others to read, even a lack of a coma can make a HUGE DIFFERENCE in the message I am attempting to get accross to my audience.

And once again I agree it is important for the guilty parties to be reported when it comes to be a victum of a sex crime, but on the other hand, having the knowledge that I do because of my past experiences, I also know the pain one is often put through as a result of bringing someone to justice.

And for those who think doing so is as easy as it sounds and who have never gone through this experience...try imagining what it is like to be victumized of the worst crime you have ever experienced and multiply having to explain that experience a 100+ times knowing that whatever you have to say now becomes public record...unless you are a minor, and even that can be public record if given valid enough reason to have access to that documentation for the rest of your life.

Not only is the person who committed considered a target, but so is the victum and all those who were involved in some way, including innocent people on the sidelines.

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW
Been there, and knows what it feels like to have this happen.

PS
More often than not, the easiest way to go on with life, is to simply put such experiences in Gods Hands where he can take care of the end results in a much better way... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

12-25-2003, 07:59 AM

GS evidently you misunderstood what I was asking. What I wanted to know was why you didn't call the police yourself when you were raped?

NudeAl

12-25-2003, 08:23 AM

MikeJB

12-25-2003, 12:10 PM

Mike, I have another question for you..."What is Oral Sex then???" If Oral Sex is not Sex according to your definition...
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My understanding is Oral sex is when you have sex with something other than someone's penis *i.e finger, sex toy, etc* and it doesnt always have to be up the front end either...... Im sure its more complicated than that but thats my basic understanding of it and is basically what I tell people when they ask. I thought you wouldve known that.

MikeJB

12-25-2003, 12:25 PM

MikeJB
Although you are entitled to your opinion I was just wondering if you actually read what you wrote. IF you did and you still agree with what you wrote then that is a little strange..
All crimes should be reported, no matter who might get a little bad publicity out of it..
Children must be protected...
Rape is NEVER the person who was raped fault...
Lapses in security happen however to not want it pointed out is inexcusable. AND there really is no true way to know who might or might not be a bad guy unless they are caught and reported, lots of orginizations have this problem. People who pray on children tend to try to get into where children are, people who pray on the elderly tend to try to get access to the elderly, shoplifters go to stores....thats why we all need to know that bad things happen and we all need to be on the look out and try to stop it...
BUT read your previous posts some of them are making you come off a little off...
steve
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Okay here's what im trying to get at. This has nothing to do with the rape stuff now because its obvious that in any shape or form thats wrong and you gotta call the cops on it. What I was basically saying is, even though you SHOULD call the cops for every crime that is commited at a resort, sometimes its just easier and more effective to deal with some people yourself, especially if its not a crime and just more of a disturbance. Sometimes just giving them a good talking to and explaining what they did was wrong and threatening to call the police if they dont leave, roughing them up a bit and scaring them, just kicking them out or sometimes just giving them a warning and letting them go and having that be the last problem you have from them sometimes is the best thing to do. I think that it has to do with the severity of the offense and the situation *obviously you wouldnt treat a teen doing such things as you would say an adult* so I just think that especially if its their first time there and their first offense on your property and whatever they did wasnt that severe, sometimes its just good to deal with it yourself. Like for example if someone steals something and I caught them, if it was their first offense there and especially if they had no previous criminal record, then I would 1) give them a talking to and find out how and why they stole what they stole 2) explain to them that what they did was wrong and that I wouldve been within my right to either kick them out and or call the cops, but say that all they get is a warning never to do it again so long as they return what they stole and apologize profusely to the person they stole it from and 3) if they did apologize, id just let em go on their way but make sure the security kept an eye on them to make sure that they didnt steal anything else and if they did then probably id call the police and or just kick em out. Thats basically what im saying. I mean getting arrested by the police seems to me like a very troubling and traumatic thing to people sometimes, especially younger teens, especially if they have never gotten arrested before and I just wouldnt want to have to do it unless the situation strictly dictated me to, especially if I could solve the situation by simpler means and close the case there effectively and turn the person around and actually get em to see the evils of whatever they were doing. I mean that seems preferable to sitting in some cold jail cell where the police wouldnt be half as understanding and probably would just punish the person more than actually teach them what they did was wrong and WHY it was wrong and convince them to change their ways. I hope you can understand what im saying now, its just my opinion, what I feel and what id probably actually do are two different things.

MikeJB

12-25-2003, 12:38 PM

Mike I know you're a young man and you have been brought up in different times but sex is sex. If it is done with out the consent of one of the parties involved it is rape and that is a crime. It dosen't matter if it is oral sex, annal sex or what ever. If you or the other party is receiving some sort of sexual gratification out of the act no matter what it involves, sheep, high heel shoes, ponies, whatever it is sex. If anyone is getting off it is sex okay? Hope this helps clear things up.
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Okay, I understand that any type of "forced sex" is raped, like if someone makes someone else have sex with them or makes them stick something down there or whatever, I mean i think we have decided that fact already. Thing im trying to say is, such things as sex over the internet is NOT rape because the person actually can control how they respond and weither they even participate in it or not because they can just as easily click the person's message out or tell them no, in real life that isnt so easy. Oral sex, while still being sex and if forced on someone by someone else is still rape, I do think that it should be treated slightly different than regular sex, I mean yes the convict should still get the same rape charges but oral sex is a bit different from regular sex for two reasons 1) its a bit odd for a sexual abuser to force someone to have oral sex with themselves, I mean im sure its possible but not nearly as common as the real thing and 2) even if they did, you cant get pregnant or do any real harm by having oral sex with yourself or doing it with a mate because you dont use a penis and unless you or the other person has stds or aids then most likely youre safe from any harm. Thats what im trying to say, theres a big difference between regular sex and oral sex, being raped is being raped though and someone should be punished for that reguardless of what kind of sex it is. I just think that someone being raped using actual sex or oral sex that has proven to somehow be dirty or cause the person to get aids should be treated more seriously as it can cause more long term effects than say normal oral sex does *physical effects* and it can cause more long term problems for family and friends too than the latter, so it should be dealth with far more severly and also if there are other circumstances involved. Thats just my personal opinion on it, I mean i might be completely off my rocker but I just thought id give you all my opinion and maybe some of you can enlighten me. It always helps to get good advice from others.

Croydon

12-25-2003, 01:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
Mike, I have another question for you..."What is Oral Sex then???" If Oral Sex is not Sex according to your definition...
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My understanding is Oral sex is when you have sex with something other than someone's penis *i.e finger, sex toy, etc* and it doesnt always have to be up the front end either...... Im sure its more complicated than that but thats my basic understanding of it and is basically what I tell people when they ask. I thought you wouldve known that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Look up the word ORAL. Oral meals through the mouth or involving the mouth. Now put the word oral and sex together. ORAL SEX is any sexual activity that INVOLVES THE MOUTH and it can involve the penis. Oral sex can be incorporated with sex toys and one's fingers. Do you read any other post or think about what you say before you say it. If not, do it, because you aren't looking quite brilliant at the momnent. Most of your post are very contradictory, you always go back and forth, inconsistent, and false.

MikeJB

12-25-2003, 04:22 PM

Well sheesh, I mean im only 19. I havent ever had sex, I dont really want to anytime soon and I really dont think we should be getting into this oral crap on a nudist forum that supposedly doesnt even = nudity with sex. I mean I dont get why everyone's gotta be so paranoid about people getting raped or molested at nudist resorts, im sure it rarely happens and when it does im sure it happens at very few places and probably after it happens the place either changes its policy or gets shut down, either way the rapes either drop or stop all together. I just think that overall they happen alot less at nudists resorts than they would at one of them textile resorts, not saying that the possibility isnt as low but I think the accual occurences are, so i think people oughta just get nude, go to the resorts and stop worrying and just enjoy themselves.

greensunshine

12-25-2003, 05:32 PM

I have a question for you...

How many times did you call the police when you were raped at the resorts???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
GS evidently you misunderstood what I was asking. What I wanted to know was why you didn't call the police yourself when you were raped? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Greensunshine in the Pacific NW

12-25-2003, 06:32 PM

I wasn't raped at a resort.

greensunshine

12-25-2003, 06:39 PM

Mike,

You may only be 19, but I have met people younger than you, who make more sense than I confess a lot of us have been able to make out of your posts. Sadly what you have written for the most part, makes not only I, but I am sure others wonder how old you really are intellectually are...

I would like to share with you one of the quotes I found written by Confusius, it is as follows:

"When you know a thing, maintain you know it; when you do not, acknowledge it. This is the characteristic of knowledge."

Mike, one of the greatest assets your generation has been blessed with, is the internet, and the many many resources once reserved for scholars in raised in my generation... Yes, I have children older than you and I do vividly remember when computers were little more than something that did basics in buildings, thus something as basic as not having an answer to one of the many questions I have asked you, is only a few key strokes away...

I would like to add one of my own quotes to the one I quoted from Confusius...

"It is better to admit one doesn't have an answer that to attempt to answer it and come across as a fool."

Thus many of what I have read coming from you are symptoms of someone who has little desire to go in search of the truth...but instead serve as good examples of how little one really knows about what they speak...after all your generation truely does live in the Information Age as young adults...

I would would like to share with you the definitions I found regarding "Oral Sex" in "The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition" printed in 1991.

Oral - relating to the mouth.

Sex - The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior.

Oral Sex - Sexual activity involving oral stimulation of one's partner's sex organs.

Sex Relations - 1. Sexual intercourse. 2. Sexual activity between indivuals.

And I for one, hope this to helps you have a better understanding of what I asked when I asked you to give me your definition...

Greensunshine in the Pacific NW

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
Well sheesh, I mean im only 19. I havent ever had sex, I dont really want to anytime soon and I really dont think we should be getting into this oral crap on a nudist forum that supposedly doesnt even = nudity with sex. I mean I dont get why everyone's gotta be so paranoid about people getting raped or molested at nudist resorts, im sure it rarely happens and when it does im sure it happens at very few places and probably after it happens the place either changes its policy or gets shut down, either way the rapes either drop or stop all together. I just think that overall they happen alot less at nudists resorts than they would at one of them textile resorts, not saying that the possibility isnt as low but I think the accual occurences are, so i think people oughta just get nude, go to the resorts and stop worrying and just enjoy themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MikeJB

12-25-2003, 09:22 PM

Yeah some 19 year olds around here can be pretty dumb too. My dad says im smarter than half of them, I mean thats like the one of very few actual good things he says, not sure if he means it or not or is just saying that so I dont go completely nuts on him. I think I figured out partially why I thought that oral sex meant something more than using your mouth, because alot of kids would talk about oral sex and never use the word mouth or at least not mention it and I just thought it had to do with having sex but not using a penis and I think some of them called what they did "oral sex" and that wasnt the right term for it but I just went along with what they said because I didnt know otherwise and at that point I had no desire to find out. Some people just have trouble keeping their facts straight. Im sorry if I seem stupid to anyone here. You can give me advice without needed to snap my head off, I can understand when I said or did something wrong, just try to explain to me what I did wrong. Im not here to cause trouble or anything, im just a nudist interested in the lifestyle and I like to talk about things. As far as the sex thing goes, I think thats a little sketchy for me as I dont know all the details of it as ive never been down that path ever and just understood the basic kinda stuff everyone knows about it. I wouldnt really get into that gay or oral sex stuff because that just isnt for me anyways.

Rex

12-25-2003, 10:24 PM

Two guys talking.
One says to the other, "Do you like oral sex?"
"No", says the other, "I'd sooner do it , than talk about it".

Rex

12-25-2003, 10:42 PM

I've just realised that my last post could be seen as being flippant about a very serious subject.
That was not my intention. I was commenting on how the same words can mean different things to different people.

MikeJB

12-25-2003, 11:10 PM

Didnt bother me, I didnt even get what you were saying at first and the way everyone keeps flaming me about my opinions on that subject I didnt even wanna try to figure it out. I get it now though.

sawdust

12-26-2003, 01:04 PM

What is Oral Sex?

Oral sex, as the word oral implies, involves the mouth. Both males and females can give oral sex. Sucking of the brest is normally considered part of forplay which may lead to oral sex, but is not oral sex in itself. Oral sex is preformed when the mouth is used to stimulate your partners sex organs. This is done by sucking, softly blowing, tounging and/or stroking the genatalia. True, sex toys such as vibrators and such can be used at the same time as oral sex happens, but the primary stimulant comes from the use of the mouth. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sadust

Bob S.

12-26-2003, 08:51 PM

"Although I do think that the nudist resort does have a problem if they are doing everything correct and the community and police still have issues with them"

If the police have a problem with them, they have a legitimate problem. The community may not enjoy them, but they just have to learn to live with it, and if they have no legal problems with the park, there is nothing they can do.

"Yea so its not real sex basically, just oral sex."

I'll throw my $.02 into this discussion as well. Any action that is meant to give sexual pleasure can be considered as sex. Masturbation is a form of sex in my opinion.

"1) its a bit odd for a sexual abuser to force someone to have oral sex with themselves"

It is not unusual. Although it can be dangerous. I recall one story where a woman was forced to have oral sex with a predator who forced his way into her apartment. Instead, she grabbed onto his scrotum and squeezed as hard as she could while simultaneously twisting her hand around. I don't recall how the man got away, but he was caught soon afterwards.

"Something that happens online and something that happens with both people in the bedroom are two different situations..."

Yes. And online sexual conversations would be legally be considered "Contributing to the Delinqency of a Minor" if I am correct.

"the girl being online would have more control of the situation than if she was actually with the person."

Yes, but that is not what I was talking about. Online, we have relationships, so I was comparing that conversation to a man who has an ongoing relationship with a girl. When she is at home with her parents, she can always talk to them and she does not have to meet him anymore. But she does anyways.

Sexual predators are adept at finding that special part of their victims' lives that is missing and fills it up with ease. With that trust that is now built and affection that is felt, the predator now has the best access to do anything he wants.

I do agree that parents who leave their children to go online in complete privacy are being dangerously naive. And they should blame themselves if anything happens to their children (after blaming the predator).

"sometimes its just easier and more effective to deal with some people yourself, especially if its not a crime and just more of a disturbance."

Any non-arrestable offense should be handled by the park itself. Any violent crime (including rape) should be handled by the police. Robbery, trespassing, and other non-violent, but arrestable offnses should be up to the individual victim whether to report it to the police or not. And if so, the park should be cooperative with the victim's right.

And just for some advice, when you quote, please just copy the specific comment that you want to reply to. Your posts are a bit long and part of that is because of the amount that you quote.

Bob S.