What is most UnPatriotic [Archive]

wannabenaked2001

03-13-2003, 05:49 AM

Personally I find a few of these things equally un-patriotic. Burning the flag, not standing for the Anthem/Pledge, and not voting are the ones that I find most revolting, but I can think of a few more.

Selling/providing our country's secrets to others.
Any kind of domestic terrorism (Tim McVey sp?)
Hindering our armed forces (human shields in Iraq).
Destroying/wasting/abusing natural resources.
Buying anything from France.
Jane Fonda
Changing the Pledge of Allegiance.
Avoiding Jury Duty.
Running from the draft.
Abusing social assistance programs.
Sueing anyone for your own stupidity.
Drug abuse.
Lining your own pockets while in an elected office.
Driving a "gas guzzler".
Not owning a fire arm.
Not taking responsability for your children's support/upbringing.
Enron executives.

I'm sure I could come up with more, given the time.

*****Please note, I do not necessarily support all of these points equally, or even at all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Suntied

03-13-2003, 09:56 AM

I choose one, yet they are all very un-patriotic. The most unpatriotic thing that a person can do is to not stand up or fight for the country that he lives in as far as patriotism goes or is defined "one who loves or defends his or her country" (The New American Webster Handy College Dictionary, Third Edition). So dodging the draft would be one, but there is no draft in place right now. Protesting the ones that are here to defend this country is like saying that you protest Patriotism, so that would be one. Not paying your taxes, that pay the men and women to go out there and risk there lives for the defence of this country would be one. Any other reason that you can come up with for not defending or loving your country would be one. But, if you burn the flag... your just symbolizing and frankly need to take up smoking. If you do not stand for the anthem (You are also supposed to place your right hand over your heart, remove your hat when applicable, and solute if you are one of the great participants in the greatest military force in history and the world, (USA only)), you may not have legs or you just look like an idiot to all of us patriots!

Why then, when I voted, the results shown there to be more votes for the ladder two reasons (which are first in the poll) than the first three (which are last in the poll)??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Come on people... Love and Defend thy country!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Humbily yours,
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Suntied /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

EricNY

03-13-2003, 11:26 PM

The results to this poll are turning out a little different than I thought.

Here is an additional question, Do you feel that you should be expected to show reverence and respect to another countries Flag or Anthem when you visit. OR put another way do you get upset when someone visits your country and does not show respect the same way?

j4king

03-14-2003, 12:11 PM

This question assumes that all these actions are unpatriotic. I can envision situations where I would consider none of them unpatriotic. In fact, I think it is my patriotic duty to protest our current march to war, but that is a different thread...

EricNY

03-14-2003, 12:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by j4king:
This question assumes that all these actions are unpatriotic. I can envision situations where I would consider none of them unpatriotic. In fact, I think it is my patriotic duty to protest our current march to war, but that is a different thread... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Could you elaborate on that, I am having trouble understanding your reply /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

j4king

03-14-2003, 05:06 PM

ercNY, hope the following clarifies my previous comment.

Protesting the War:
I believe the unintended consequences of invading Iraq (especially without the backing of the UN) will be devastating, including complete chaos in post-war Iraq, and more terrorism directed towards Americans. Therefore I see it as MY patriotic duty to protest the war (since I see it as hurting the US in the long run). However, that doesn't mean I view those who support the war as being unpatriotic. In fact, quite the contrary. If an informed person truly believes the war is the right and just thing to do, then it is THEIR patriotic duty to support the war. I say informed, because I find it frightening how many Americans believe it was Iraq/Saddam who orchestrated the 9-11 events.

Not Voting:
If I believe everyone running for a position is equally terrible/unfit/untrustworthy, then FOR ME, it would be more patriotic to not vote than to vote in THAT SITUATION.

Burning the Flag:
Since America is based on the freedom of expression, if burning the flag is made a crime, then I could see it as patriotic to burn it in protest. For the record, before everyone starts screaming at me, I have never burned the flag, and never would in any situation. I'm just explaining a situation where I would not consider it unpatriotic.

Not Standing for Pledge of Allegiance:
Mixing God/religion with patriotism I believe does a dis-service to both. It implies that America is blessed by God no matter what we do. And I believe it makes a mockery of God in that we are pledging our allegiance to the flag, and not God, but then assume we have God's blessing for doing so. In fact, I would even say that for many it is taking his name in vain, since for many the phrase "under God" is a meaningless phrase.

Not Paying Taxes:
I know there are people who don't pay taxes in protest of the way it is spent. Most of the ones I have heard of, seem to have the interests of the disadvantaged in mind. So I see no reason to label that as unpatriotic, though, I believe there are more constructive ways of trying to change things.

ercNY , you said, "The results to this poll are turning out a little different than I thought." How so?

fred950

03-14-2003, 06:31 PM

Being old enough to have first hand memories of Veit Nam protests, I recall Pres. Nixon tring to defuse the situation by urging the "silent majority" to "stand up and say what's right with America". The responce he got wasn't quite what he was expecting. The best thing thats RIGHT with America is that every person has the right to stand up and say exactly what he or she feels is WRONG with America...without fear of ones patriotism being questioned. A hard lesson that Bush the Second has yet to learn.

Suntied

03-14-2003, 11:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by j4king:
Therefore I see it as MY patriotic duty to protest the war (since I see it as hurting the US in the long run). However, that doesn't mean I view those who support the war as being unpatriotic. In fact, quite the contrary. If an informed person truly believes the war is the right and just thing to do, then it is THEIR patriotic duty to support the war. I say informed, because I find it frightening how many Americans believe it was Iraq/Saddam who orchestrated the 9-11 events.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am sorry to intrude here but, you mentioned "informed" as though any of US have a clue what information our government has... George Bush would be the only informed human in the USA... and I don't believe, yet I am not "informed", that "sad *** insane" is smart enough to think of something like 911. He is a tyrant... and the informed want him ousted from power. If you really think that this so called "war" is going to be anything more than Iraq getting their butt kicked, then you are watching way too many ex-majors and retired military goofballs that get paid to come on TV and say exactley what they are told by the news media.

In all reallity people, we do not have any idea why President Bush (The same guy that beet the crap out of Afganistan, when the Russians didn't even come close) wants sad *** insane gone, but the fact that he does, is good enough for me. Why doesn't anybody remember the 86% approval rating the man had on 10-11-01. The speeches he gave around 9-11-01 brought me to tears at times. Don't you remember?

There is not a one of us that is informed j4king. Unless you are actually George Bush himself... lets see... we use the same sound as G but use J and instead of "for" we use 4... and I want to be king of all the presidents before me... except Daddy. AH HA J4KING... I should be president... oh, wait, I am... and Saddam Hussain is a TYRANT that needs to be removed from power and I have at my disposal, the most ultimate weapons system in the world, where my fighting men and women protect our country at the slightest of (any other nations) risk to there life, yet they say they would die for there country and it's beliefs any way...... I think we should get rid of the tyrant. Boy that was a tough decision... I should go take the dog for a walk on the White House Lawn as it is now safe from any of these TYRANTS and F****** TERRORISTS... NOW THAT BILL IS GONE!!!!!

Just my opinion, but I thought it was a darn good depiction and I might have used a period in places that I didn't so... (PERIOD)

I am a lover, not a fighter, but part of LOVE is PROTECTION,

Peace someday,
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Suntied /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Rik

03-15-2003, 01:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Suntied:
I am sorry to intrude here but, you mentioned "informed" ... George Bush would be the only informed human in the USA... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What???
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Why doesn't anybody remember the 86% approval rating the man had on 10-11-01. The speeches he gave around 9-11-01 brought me to tears at times. Don't you remember? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No but I remember he went into hiding while Mayor Guilliano held New York together in the aftermath of those tragic events.

Rik

missouriboy

03-15-2003, 02:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ercNY:
Could you elaborate on that, I am having trouble understanding your reply /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know you asked this question of j4king, and he answered it well, but I want to add my two cents anyway.

This question of so-called 'patriotism' never addresses the point of "Patriotic to what?" Our Country? Or our Government? In my mind these are two separate things. The government of our country has grown into a monster never envisioned by the founders of our country. It commits, and gets away with, things for which you and I would be imprisoned forever.

A criminal government violates its own law.
A wicked government violates God's law.

In my opinion, our government has long been both criminal and wicked, so if I express dissatisfaction or protest something the GOVERNMENT does, I don't want anyone accusing me of being unpatriotic to my COUNTRY.

Therefore I don't respond to these types of polls, because they are usually too simplistic. They just tend to start a bunch of arguments, because no one has really agreed to any definition of terms.

[missouriboy steps down from soapbox...]

Suntied

03-15-2003, 02:53 AM

Hidding... he was on TV that morning at an elementry school! The VICE PRESIDENT went into hidding as NATIONAL SECURITY PROCEEDURE... you poor illeducated, lill' dumb nudie. (ZbraCpl quote)

George W. Bush was on the TV that night, in New York the next DAY at the PENTAGON the next DAY and gave FOUR, that I can remember, of the most inspiring speeches I've ever heard from any of the LEADERS we have had. Expecially that Bill guy!

Nudity Rules and you, my friend are mistaken!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Bart/Suntied /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
You would forget first as you are in a different county... no prejudice, just thoughtfulness. I think more have forgotten here which is a crying shame! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Suntied

03-15-2003, 03:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
...they are usually too simplistic. They just tend to start a bunch of arguments, because no one has really agreed to any definition of terms.

[missouriboy steps down from soapbox...] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree on the government/politician view, but they are our government... we supposedly elect them (even though we have no idea what we are voting for)... and those are the spoils of mankind, not America. People in power/government have been corupt long before our Great Grandfathers were ever thought of.

Oops, who just started an arguement... wasn't me!

Your friend Suntied... no time for faces.

missouriboy

03-15-2003, 03:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Suntied:
Oops, who just started an arguement... wasn't me! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EricNY

03-15-2003, 09:03 PM

originally posted by j4king
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Not Voting: If I believe everyone running for a position is equally terrible/unfit/untrustworthy, then FOR ME, it would be more patriotic to not vote than to vote in THAT SITUATION. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is never patriotic to not vote, voices need to be heard, or you leave the decisions to who?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Since America is based on the freedom of expression, if burning the flag is made a crime, then I could see it as patriotic to burn it in protest. For the record, before everyone starts screaming at me, I have never burned the flag, and never would in any situation. I'm just explaining a situation where I would not consider it unpatriotic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The ONLY time a flag should be burnt is when it is tattered and torn, no longer fit to fly. Even this should only be done in a proper cerimony.Freedom of speech is one thing, burning the flag is just plain slapping the country in the face.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Not Standing for Pledge of Allegiance:
Mixing God/religion with patriotism I believe does a dis-service to both. It implies that America is blessed by God no matter what we do. And I believe it makes a mockery of God in that we are pledging our allegiance to the flag, and not God, but then assume we have God's blessing for doing so. In fact, I would even say that for many it is taking his name in vain, since for many the phrase "under God" is a meaningless phrase. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No matter your religeous beleifs it is still our pledge/anthem, deserving respect!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Not Paying Taxes:
I know there are people who don't pay taxes in protest of the way it is spent. Most of the ones I have heard of, seem to have the interests of the disadvantaged in mind. So I see no reason to label that as unpatriotic, though, I believe there are more constructive ways of trying to change things. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Protesting taxes is our right, not paying taxes is not a good way to make a point. If you have the disadvantaged in mind there are better ways to address that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ercNY , you said, "The results to this poll are turning out a little different than I thought." How so? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am surprised that not paying taxes is on the top of the list. I expected burning the flag or not showing respect to pledge/anthem by standing.

erc

krcNY

03-16-2003, 05:14 AM

Good Morning Folks,

I would like to add my two cents.
As a Cubscout leader, we spent a whole month learning about the duties of a US Citizen as well as some of the other countries. We learned that it is our Duty as a citizen of our country (no matter which country it is) to vote. If you do not agree with the leadership we have, ban together with others that feel the way you do and vote the person out at election. If you don't vote it just lets the others win.
Also burning the Flag is not considered "Freedom of Speech". We looked for this as a project and could not find it anywhere as being acceptable. As ercNY stated, the only acceptable Flag Burning, is an old and tattered flag which is burnt in a ceremony by veterens (this is so in most other countries as well.

I am not for war, but everyone has their right to their opinion. I feel both Saddam and Osama should be erased from the earth. They are a menace to the world and every country should come together and eliminate them. They have not done any good to anyone but themselves. I wish it were different but it is not.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I still pray for world peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

03-16-2003, 08:11 AM

KrcNY....Very good...I agree ... You underestimated Your input. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

j4king

03-16-2003, 12:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by krcNY:
Also burning the Flag is not considered "Freedom of Speech". We looked for this as a project and could not find it anywhere as being acceptable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You might want to let the Supreme Court know of these findings since in 1989 it found that flag burning was a form of speech protected by the First Amendment.

AussieBeachBoy

03-16-2003, 01:54 PM

Coming from a different culture to most of you, here are some views.

The difficulty with patriotism is that it is difficult to work out how to put it into practice. The definition of patriotism usually has two parts: first, a love of one's country; and second, a desire to do what you can to advance its interests.

The problem is, two people could both love their country equally and have completely different views as to what should be done to advance its interests. Love of a country does not equate to love of its current administration or policies. So one person might consider that the US getting involved in a war is a good thing, and would promote its interests; and another might think it's a bad thing and would not promote its interests. Many extreme elements such as the Oklahoma bombers consider themselves 'patriots' standing up for what they personally think are the true interests of the country.

So let's look at the poll choices.

'Burning the flag' shows elements of lack of patriotism as it is an express renouncement not so much of a country's policies, but of its identity.

'Not standing for the anthem/pledge' is an ambiguous gesture. It's not so clearcut as burning the flag. It suggests an element of disrespect, but doesn't contain the same implicit rejection of the country's identity that burning the flag does.

'Protesting war', in my view, is not unpatriotic. If one's true belief is that the country's interests lie in not going to war, then it could be an act motivated by great patriotism to protest war.

'Not voting' is not unpatriotic, in my view, particularly in a country where voting is not compulsory. Not voting is in itself a form of voting - it's saying "I don't care enough about which of the above candidates gets in to want to try to influence the outcome". THere is no renunciation of the country or what it stands for, just the candidates. In my country we have compulsory voting, which I think is undemocratic. Okay, I can choose not to write anything on my ballot paper, but if I don't drag myself off to the polling station I get fined. I think the right to vote implies the right not to vote if you so choose.

"Not pay taxes" is a difficult one. Some might say that not paying taxes could be a form of protest against policies which one thinks are misguided and not in the national interest, and therefore is a form of patriotism. I disagree. If you don't pay taxes you are reducing the nation's ability to fund its activities, good or bad. I consider that a true patriot would pay his/her taxes, then attempt to influence how they were spent.

Overall, I think that not paying taxes is more unpatriotic than burning the flag. This is because burning the flag is a symbolic gesture but ultimately devoid of impact. Not paying taxes has a real impact because it detracts in a real and meaningful way from a country's ability to get things done.

So in the order of least to most patriotic:
Not paying taxes
Burning the flag
Not standing for the pledge/anthem

Potentially related to patriotism but not necessarily unpatriotic: Protesting war

Usually nothing to do with patriotism: Not voting

Edited to add: The poll had an "other" option. In my view, the most unpatriotic thing someone can do is take deliberate action designed to undermine one's country and its interests. Some espionage and sabotage falls into this category.

03-16-2003, 02:21 PM

Very well though out. However, I would personally have put burning the flag before not paying taxes since I consider burning the flag as a rejection of one's country. Of course, it's jsut an opinion.

j4king

03-16-2003, 02:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Originally posted by ercNY:
I am surprised that not paying taxes is on the top of the list. I expected burning the flag or not showing respect to pledge/anthem by standing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I imagine that is because of all the things listed, not paying taxes is the only one that is illegal (in the US at least).

Snoboy

03-16-2003, 02:59 PM

Rik you have the right to say all your "stuff" because you live in a free world. People in Iraq are executed for "thinking". Today is the anniversary of the massacre of over 80,000 Iraq men, women and children by biological warfare. Why not move over there or even better yet, why not go be a shield for them since you believe your country and my country are wrong. Your behind is not on the line. Young men and women are over there right now prepared to fight so we can continue to have our freedom. Your comments disgust me. Quit the dang whining. Stand and up support your Country; quit complaining. Do something constructive. Give blood.

Rik

03-16-2003, 03:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snoboy:
Rik you have the right to say all your "stuff" because you live in a free world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So why do you not support my right? Why do you not encourage me to say what I believe? Or do you think freedom of speech should only apply to those who think like you?

Rik

Snoboy

03-16-2003, 03:13 PM

Goodness no. I believe everyone has a right to say what ever they want and that includes you, but War is on the horizon nothing is going to stop it I fear. It is time to stand behind those who are willing to fight so we can continue to enjoy freedom. I don't want anyone to die, but we are in dangerous times and to ignore it would be fool-hearty...you are obviously a very intelligent man...I want our men and women in harms way to know that we are supporting them. How would you feel if you were there facing the possibility of death and, everyone back home was demonstrating?

Suntied

03-16-2003, 03:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snoboy:
Rik you have the right to say all your "stuff" because you live in a free world. People in Iraq are executed for "thinking". Today is the anniversary of the massacre of over 80,000 Iraq men, women and children by biological warfare. Why not move over there or even better yet, why not go be a shield for them since you believe your country and my country are wrong. Your behind is not on the line. Young men and women are over there right now prepared to fight so we can continue to have our freedom. Your comments disgust me. Quit the dang whining. Stand and up support your Country; quit complaining. Do something constructive. Give blood. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I ussually edit comments as so they are not repeatative... but this one desearves to stay. Let freedom rain!!!!

missouriboy

03-16-2003, 04:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by AussieBeachBoy:
...Love of a country does not equate to love of its current administration or policies... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah. Exactly what I said, too. Thank you, sir.

Rik

03-17-2003, 12:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snoboy:
I believe everyone has a right to say what ever they want and that includes you, but War is on the horizon nothing is going to stop it I fear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I cannot condone something because it is inevitable.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>How would you feel if you were there facing the possibility of death and, everyone back home was demonstrating? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I might find myself questioning why I'd been sent there in the first place.

If you are happy to blindly support an illegal act of agression then that's your priviledge. For my part I feel strongly that this chaotic mess the world is in on the eve of war is squarely the responsibility of the US administration supported by the UK who have pushed and pushed despite all the warnings that their proposed action was in defiance of the will of the international community. They have acted out of arrogance.

That is not to say that I support Saddam Hussein in any way so don't even think about accusing me of that.

Like you, I admire the courage of the troops and I sincerely hope that what follows will be swift but I fear that this war on Iraq is not the end but the beginning of worldwide instability. If the US gets away with this one then it will feel enboldened and who knows where it will all end? Be certain, my friend, this coming war will not bring peace.

Let me give you two more quotes, this one from George C Marshall:

"If man does find the solution for world peace it will be the most revolutionary reversal of his record we have ever known."

and this one from Albert Einstein:

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Peace.

Rik

missouriboy

03-17-2003, 04:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Be certain, my friend, this coming war will not bring peace. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What he said!

Rick & Chris

04-04-2003, 07:08 PM

To me, each of the choices presented could be either an unpatriotic act or a patriotic act, depending on the motivation of the actor.

Perhaps the best single example of unpatriotic behavior I can imagine is to ignore the flaws in your nation and take a "my country--right or wrong" attitude. Patriotism, to me, is a willingness to admit that one's nation isn't perfect and to work to make it a better nation. Whether that involves serving in the military, protesting a war, engaging in an open, non-violent, act of civil disobedience to draw attention to racist or sexist laws, or working to reduce crime in your neighborhood is irrelevant.

The citizen who sees a way in which his or her nation can be made a better place yet who fails to act on that observation is, to me, the least patriotic person, not the one who protests a war, burns a flag (why is it that people want so badly to pass laws to ban burning the flag--a clear violation of freedom of speech--when it would be both reasonable and easy to pass laws that required ALL flags to be non-flameable under our health and safety laws?), refuses to stand for a pledge he or she is uncomfortable with (often due to the inappropriate religious content), or pay taxes (particularly if the person donates the money not paid in taxes to community organizations designed to help those in need--often FAR more economically and efficiently than does the State itself).

Last night at a sushi bar I was "reliably" informed that my opposition to the current war in Iraq meant I was unpatriotic and if I didn't like the way the government was run I should leave this country. Of course, the same person also informed me that the fact that I spent two years in Vietnam (and was discharged for wounds received in battle) gave me no right to speak against the people who run our government (i.e., Boy George and the Culture[less] Club in Washington)--after all, HE would have served too, if he hadn't had to finish his college education first (he also, reliably, informed me that Nazi Germany was a Communist nation, not a Fascist one--which shows the level of political accumen that many such "deep thinkers" demonstrate)!

Funny, I always thought that one of the foremost things our military was meant to do was to protect our Constitutional Rights--including that of free speech, and the right to disagree with our government. Apparently, that right is only considered appropriate (by some) if the speech is supportive of the "official" government position. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Rick
NakedTouch@direcway.com

ATaurusJoker

04-04-2003, 09:17 PM

1) I voted other. Why because I find hard to believe that any of those situations are unpatrotic right now. I would find more patrotism in a flag burner than in the people who support this war

2) Just thought I would let all you War lovers out there know that americans have killed between 601-760 Iraqis. Boy america sure is doing swell HUH? I neglected to add in the american death, even though they are equally important, because the numbers are so much easier to find

Maybe it's time to go burn that flag

My country tissss of the sweet...

Steven

P.S. For all of you who continue to call anti-war protesters unpatrotic well I've got news for you. I am proud to say that I am a Humanitarian wayyyyyyyyyyy before I am a patriot. I think its sad that you war lovers can't say the same.

wannabenaked2001

04-14-2003, 08:39 PM

It Is the Veteran

A protest raged on a courthouse lawn,
round a makeshift stage they charged on.
Fifteen hundred or more they say,
had come to burn the Flag that day.

A boy held up the folded Flag,
cursed it and called it a dirty rag.
A man pushed through the angry crowd,
with an old gun shouldered proud.

His uniform jacket was old and tight,
he had polished each button, shiny and bright.
He crossed the stage with military grace,
until he and the boy stood face to face.

Then the old man broke the silence.

"Freedom of speech, is worth dying for,
Good men are gone, they live no more.
All so you can stand on this courthouse lawn,
and ramble on from dusk to dawn.

But before the Flag gets burned today,
this old veteran is going to have his say.

My father died on a foreign shore,
in a war they said would end all wars.
Tommy and I weren't even full grown,
before we fought in a war of our own.
Tommy died on Iwo Jima's beach,
in the shadow of a hill he couldn't reach.

Where five good men raised this Flag so high,
that the whole world could see it fly.

I got this bum leg that I still drag,
fighting for this same old Flag.

There's but one shot in this old gun,
so now it's time to decide which one.

Which one of you will follow our lead,
to stand and die for what you believe?"

The boy who had called it a dirty rag,
handed the veteran the folded Flag.

The crowd got quiet as they walked away,
to talk about what they heard that day.

So the battle for the Flag this day was won,
by a loyal veteran with a single gun.
Who for one last time, had to show to some,
That these colors will never, never run.

It is the veteran, not the preacher,
who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the veteran, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the veteran, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the veteran, not the campus organizer,
who has given us freedom to assemble.

It is the veteran, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the veteran, not the politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the veteran, who salutes the Flag,
who serves under the Flag,
whose coffin is draped by the Flag.

nordictoad

04-15-2003, 03:22 AM

Very good poem, long but very good.

What is the most UnPatriotic?

Not respecting others opinions.... because you disagree

Not Listening to another persons point of view.

Not remembering that this Country was FOUNDED by those that disagreed. I for one SUPPORT the TROOPS. I DO NOT support our President Select, nor the US forcing ourselves upon the world. Forcing itself against the recommendations of the UN.

I am glad that Iraq and Suddam regrime have been dealt with quickly and without as many deaths and injuries as expected. I fear that Shrub (Baby Bush) is not going to content in limiting the actions to Iraq. Country De Jour?

What is UnPatriotic? Those that can not see the Forest for the Bush's. Those that are mere sheeps that follow without thought.

missouriboy

04-15-2003, 06:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wannabenaked2001:
It Is the Veteran <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That was beautiful. I bet it's the best thing I might see all week, or longer.

Maybe I'll even send another donation to DAV today. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TXK NUDE

04-15-2003, 05:10 PM

Before I post my opinion here, I would like to share a little of my background. I am a veteran, served during peace time, but would have willingly served during war time too. I am also a Christian, and hve been for 28 years or more. I am also a father of two little boys, one who is nearly two, and the other to be born in August.

I voted "Other" because what I find most unpatriotic is "apathy". There is an old saying that evil flourishes when good men do nothing. No matter what your political position, or your personal conviction, if you do nothing--like no voting, no serving your country, no participating of any kind--that to me is the most unpatriotic thing.

Now, connected to that are those who are apathetic, and then complain about the condition of the country in which they live. A child once said to another who stood on the side lines during a game of kickball, "You can't cheer if you didn't play!" If you oppose the war, enlist in the military before you disrespect the military solidier or sailor who goes to fight those wars. Don't like the president? Go to City Hall and apply to run for City Council. Want to burn a flag? Go to Boy Scouts and learn how to build a fire with two sticks--and learn all the verses to the National Anthem, and correctly recite the Pledge of Allegiance, let flick your bic with pride...if you can.

If you can get involved, then you can complain. Otherwise, it would be a wise man who keeps his opinions to himself. Otherwise, every word spoken removes all doubt of the speaker's ignorance.