Naturism in Europe

[Rik]

I've just spent the last three or four weeks travelling northern Europe (Holland, Denmark and Germany)and enjoying naturist venues and thought I'd share a few observations. The venues ranged from small private clubs to big commercial camp sites as well as the odd nudist beach.

I was travelling alone and although I took the precaution of phoning ahead when I was planning to stay at a naturist site, at no time was my solo status queried. Indeed at every place I stayed I was made to feel extremely welcome. It's often said that if naturist venues alowed unlimited single males then they would become overrun with single males and drive away all the females and families. Well guess what? It's not true. I encountered just three or four singles (male and female)so where are all these single males waiting to flock to naturist clubs? A figment of someone's imagination I think.

During my travels I encountered many people with bodies so imperfect it makes you weep. Like the 80 year old man whose right leg is completely immobile he can only get around using a walking frame. Or the woman desperately ill with cancer who'd had a partial masectomy, was painfully thin and showing the usual signs of radiation therapy. I came across several people with deep scars and many people who clearly struggle with body weight. Then I read on these boards things like the guy who likes to walk around with a "non-sexual" semi-erection and the guys who worry that their penis will shrink to the size of a peanut when they get out of a cold swimming pool and I find myself wondering if they have any concept of what naturism is about.

I've spoken to a lot of people these last few weeks to try to understand what makes them naturists and the conclusion I've come to is that although people will give you different reasons ranging from "I just like it" to deeply philosophical psycho analysis, the common thread I believe is a desire for simplicity both in practical terms (such as it's just easier to wear no clothes) and in "lifestyle" terms. For example I've met a number of people who have given up houses or apartments to live full time in a caravan/trailer at a naturist site. They've all said they were concerned that it might be too drastic a step but now they'd done it they realised it was like fulfilling a life ambition.

I also stayed at regular campsites and I can now state with a certain amount of authority that almost without execption naturists sites are of a much higher quality in terms of: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>cleanliness - washrooms etc were always of the highest standard of cleanliness because people cleaned up after themselves instead of leaving it to someone else
<LI>friendliness - at naturist sites almost everyone goes out of their way to speak to you; at non-naturist sites almost everyone ignores you. I was often invited to share meals or drinks by naturists, never by non-naturists
<LI>price - many of the naturist sites were cheaper than the regular sites
<LI>space - the naturist sites almost always provided more space for tents and caravans
<LI>security - I would think nothing of leaving possessions such as camera or money in full view of everyone even if I went off site for the day.
[/list]
I was talking about this to a naturist in Germany (where they call naturism "FKK") and asked why he thought the naturist venues were always so much better and his reply was simply "I think FKK people are just nicer people". And I guess he's right but it begs the question does naturism make people nicer or are nicer people attracted to naturism? I think it's a bit of both.

If anyone wants any specific information about the countries I visited please feel free to PM me or post a question here.

Rik

[Rik]

I've just spent the last three or four weeks travelling northern Europe (Holland, Denmark and Germany)and enjoying naturist venues and thought I'd share a few observations. The venues ranged from small private clubs to big commercial camp sites as well as the odd nudist beach.

I was travelling alone and although I took the precaution of phoning ahead when I was planning to stay at a naturist site, at no time was my solo status queried. Indeed at every place I stayed I was made to feel extremely welcome. It's often said that if naturist venues alowed unlimited single males then they would become overrun with single males and drive away all the females and families. Well guess what? It's not true. I encountered just three or four singles (male and female)so where are all these single males waiting to flock to naturist clubs? A figment of someone's imagination I think.

During my travels I encountered many people with bodies so imperfect it makes you weep. Like the 80 year old man whose right leg is completely immobile he can only get around using a walking frame. Or the woman desperately ill with cancer who'd had a partial masectomy, was painfully thin and showing the usual signs of radiation therapy. I came across several people with deep scars and many people who clearly struggle with body weight. Then I read on these boards things like the guy who likes to walk around with a "non-sexual" semi-erection and the guys who worry that their penis will shrink to the size of a peanut when they get out of a cold swimming pool and I find myself wondering if they have any concept of what naturism is about.

I've spoken to a lot of people these last few weeks to try to understand what makes them naturists and the conclusion I've come to is that although people will give you different reasons ranging from "I just like it" to deeply philosophical psycho analysis, the common thread I believe is a desire for simplicity both in practical terms (such as it's just easier to wear no clothes) and in "lifestyle" terms. For example I've met a number of people who have given up houses or apartments to live full time in a caravan/trailer at a naturist site. They've all said they were concerned that it might be too drastic a step but now they'd done it they realised it was like fulfilling a life ambition.

I also stayed at regular campsites and I can now state with a certain amount of authority that almost without execption naturists sites are of a much higher quality in terms of: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>cleanliness - washrooms etc were always of the highest standard of cleanliness because people cleaned up after themselves instead of leaving it to someone else
<LI>friendliness - at naturist sites almost everyone goes out of their way to speak to you; at non-naturist sites almost everyone ignores you. I was often invited to share meals or drinks by naturists, never by non-naturists
<LI>price - many of the naturist sites were cheaper than the regular sites
<LI>space - the naturist sites almost always provided more space for tents and caravans
<LI>security - I would think nothing of leaving possessions such as camera or money in full view of everyone even if I went off site for the day.
[/list]
I was talking about this to a naturist in Germany (where they call naturism "FKK") and asked why he thought the naturist venues were always so much better and his reply was simply "I think FKK people are just nicer people". And I guess he's right but it begs the question does naturism make people nicer or are nicer people attracted to naturism? I think it's a bit of both.

If anyone wants any specific information about the countries I visited please feel free to PM me or post a question here.

Rik

[mel]

Rik

Nice to see your'e back. I was wondering where you had been. Sounds like you had a great time.

[Rik]

Mel,

The weather was "variable" (i.e. it rained a lot) but that didn't stop me having a great time. In fact nudity in the rain is to be recommended. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

[Gary Naturist]

Rik: Thanks so much for the report on your European trip. Some particularly interesting points:

-- Simplicity as a motivation for nudism. While it makes sense to nudists, and is one of my motivations, I think that most non-nudists would not make this connection.

-- Nudism and friendliness go hand in hand. In the past, the friendliness of nudists has been attributed to their being more open about themselves and/or feeling a kinship with others who have entered the world o' nudism. But maybe nudism and friendliness are encoded on the same gene.

Gary

[barelybob]

Welcome back Rik. I have also been wondering where you were. Sounds like a great trip.

Gary, I think you may have something there.

[skyclad85]

I wonder why it is that America is so rigid about nudity as compared to Europe. I mean, many Americans are descendents of Europeans, and America is composed of many different nationalities. So I wonder . . .

I also think that nudist tend to be more relaxed because we are not trying to hide in clothing. We are not "dressing a part" - like an actor who dones on a costume and assumes a role on the stage. We have learned how to be comfortable with ourselves, with how we look, and this helps us when meeting other people because we are relaxed.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skyclad85:
I wonder why it is that America is so rigid about nudity as compared to Europe. I mean, many Americans are descendents of Europeans, and America is composed of many different nationalities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Without wishing to appear xenophobic what concerns me is that Europeans are, in many ways, becoming Americanized and there is evidence that European attitude towards nudity is following this trend.

This is probably more so in the UK than mainland Europe possibly because American culture is more easily assimilated due to the shared language.

In my view (and I'd welcome any challenge on this because I'm not really sure) the increasing promotion of sex through fashion, media, advertising, celebrity and, of course, pornography (particularly soft pornography) is creating a culture where image is more important than substance and where youthfull sexuality is the aspiration of everyone - including those for whom youthfull anything is a distant memory. The complete removal of clothes means that people have no means of even attempting to live up to these cultural aspirations. I have heard people say, for example, that they don't like nudity because it "removes the mystique" or "leaves nothing to the imagination" - in other words it reduces their ability to be a sexual tease.

On the one hand I welcome a greater openess about sex but on the other I feel that this very openess is pushing us further away from widespread acceptance of naturism.

I suspect that all this applies more strongly in the US than the UK but we often say that what happens in America today will happen in Britain tomorrow and - I might add - in Europe the day after!

Rik

[Doug H]

Rik,

Some very good points.

As much as I'd like to see the overt sexuality in the advertising and entertainment media toned down, there's one simple truth: Sex will stop selling when people quit buying, and I doubt that will happen any time soon. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif About the only thing an individual can do is choose not to buy. A choice I make regularly.

As for clothes being used to indicate status, even in soceities where clothes are not the norm, some body ornamentation is used to indicate status. Humans are territorial animals, and unlike other animals, we've added abstract concepts to list of things to be territorial about. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I doubt that will go away either.

An interesting observation on hypocrisy. Those groups and individuals who loudly lecture about greed, avarice, and the love of material objects being at the roots of all things bad, are also the same people who loudly protest that nudity is also bad, bad, bad. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Those people also really, really don't like it, when their hypocrisy is pointed out to them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I don't know what to do to counteract the societal forces you've mentioned. If naturist organizations had the resources to compete with agencies of commerce in the mainstream media to offset these messages, wouldn't they be doing it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif We're talking billyuns and billyuns of dollars. When money is talking....

Doug H.

[skyclad85]

Doug & Rik -

Your posts regarding the selling of sex and the hypocrisy of some people got the wheels of my mind turning.

In a way I find it really strange that nudism is not legally acceptable yet. Celebrity nudity is accepted - no one brings Cher up on any decency charges, or Madonna or a pile of other celebrities that have appeared in various stages of 'undress'. And most often, the celebrities purpose *is* to sell themselves, to sell their sexually.

Then us nudist come along, minding our own business and not intending anything lude or rude or crude by our practices, and the world complains! Makes no sense to me, really. If nudity is so terrible, then why is it tolerated from the Hollywood crowd? Could it be that it's a money maker?? Is the law influenced by the dollar? And if its OK for celebrities, who *are* selling themselves, then I don't see why it is so wrong for us who aren't doing anything wrong.

And what about nude photography? Or paintings of nudes? Isn't that considered an art form? Are artists and photographers brought up on some type of charges? Are the models who pose for them? I think our culture really needs to use some consistency of thought here.

It's a real shame if Europe is starting to adopt American views on nudism. I had hoped that it would be the other way around - that European views would influence American culture.

Oh, well. . . . .

skyclad85...This subject was explored a while back and someone ,I dont remember who,gave the theory that the huge dollar porn industry...was to blame...to make it short..If nudity became respectable ...no one would buy their porn...Wh at do you think? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ODB

[MaxUK]

Skyclad, you posted:

Then us nudist come along, minding our own business and not intending anything lude or rude or crude by our practices, and the world complains!

Where did that come from?? What do you mean - 'the world complains'?? I sense you are trying to purvey the view that all naturists are downtrodded, totally misunderstood creatures, seen as existing on some other planet by everyone else.

Well, that's not the case at all, so why the over dramatisation - just for effect or to get some feedback with others agreeing with you how awful the situation is?? I can't believe you really think the 'world' is against naturism - so why say what you did??

When both sides - naturists and the wider population - can realise that the situation is not black and white (ie. not total acceptance or total unacceptance)then the path to progress will be a little easier.

Max

[Rik]

Outdoorbare,

There's more to porn than nudity so I don't think it would ever get to a position where no-one would buy it but I feel fairly certain that the proportion of naturists that need to use porn is significantly less than the population at large.

As a naturist I find myself getting more and more turned off at the sight of sexual images particularly when used to sell products or newspapers. Not because I don't like sex but because it feels like I'm being manipulated by the people that peddle this stuff.

Rik

[skyclad85]

outdoorbare -

If nudity was "respectable", as you say, I think the porn industry would still be around. People who look at porn would no doubt be very disappointed if all they saw were a bunch of nude bodies walking around, sunning themselves on the beach, eating meals, going for a swim. . .

The porn watcher likes nudity, sure, but there is a lot more to porn then nudity. It's the sexual behavior that also interests the porn watcher. A fully clothed man or woman can behave in a very sexually explicit way. You don't need your clothes off to be suggestive or downright crude.

Since I don't equate porn in anyway with nudity, I treat them as different issues. Porn = behavior, nudity = naturalism.

I also think that nudity to some degree is acceptable/respectable (outside of the nudist community that is). Nude photography (minus the porn stuff) is treated as a form of art, as well as the numerous paintings of nudes I have seen. Many sculptures depict nudes.

[Doug H]

If you accept soceity-at-large's premise that nudity equals sex, then neither the adult entertainment (what a euphemism!) industry nor the advertising industry would probably want that connection broken. Selling sex is just too easy compared to thinking up a genuinely original way to market yourself or your product(s). Therefore, it follows that they would feel threatened by socially acceptable nonsexual nudity.

As for nudity in the art and entertainment worlds, there has always been a dichotomy of what acceptable in "fantasy land" and not in "the real world". Even in the Victorian age, there is significant evidence of this. Another of Western soceity's great paradoxes.

And as for the question "Does money influence the law?", I refer the adage that people who like sausage and respect the law should not watch either one being made. Even if genuine bribery and political gifts were to be completely eliminated, an effective campaign for public office is not cheap, and candidates need donations to their campaign funds to put up a credible contest. Don't think that significant contributions from big contributors get forgotten when it's time to say "yay" or "nay".

Don't get me wrong, I like being human and I like being an American, but if aliens are watching us, they probably think that some of what we consider serious moments to be grand comedy!

Doug H.

[skyclad85]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MaxUK:
[

"Where did that come from?? What do you mean - 'the world complains'??"


Geez, it's an *expression*, not meant to be taken as literal and/or as precise as you took it. Haven't you ever used an expression to emphasize your feelings about something? The expression is used for underlining a feeling, not to express the literal state of the world.

Of course, not everyone shares the same view of nudity as those who oppose it (or as those who practice it). The world is not composed of a bunch of clones. I didn't think that it was necessary to point that out here, since most posters here seem to be intelligent. There are those who fall somewhere inbetween in varying degrees of leaning to this side of the issue or that. However, the standard right now is for clothing, not for non-clothing or even for personal choice. Nudist are (at least here in the US) restricted to designated areas which are not anywhere near as common as clothing-required areas. My use of the expression 'the world' was directed at the majority of the population, which as far as I have experienced, are not accepting of a clothes-free environment. The standard of when clothing is acceptable and when it is not is far from consistent too. Maybe that will change.

"I sense you are trying to purvey the view that all naturists are downtrodded, totally misunderstood creatures, seen as existing on some other planet by everyone else."

Well, you sense wrong. I am not the poor-little-me-I-am-so-misunderstood-type. I frankly don't give a care what people think of my opinions. If I did, I would go with the flow and not practice nudity. I also would never have decided that my family's religion, Christianity, while fine for them is not for me and decided to explore Wicca.


"so why the over dramatisation - just for effect or to get some feedback with others agreeing with you how awful the situation is?? I can't believe you really think the 'world' is against naturism - so why say what you did??"


And you call me dramatic. If you can't believe my selection of word usage, it's your problem to deal with.

"When both sides - naturists and the wider population - can realise that the situation is not black and white (ie. not total acceptance or total unacceptance)then the path to progress will be a little easier."


When people learn how to use their heads and think for themselves, when they learn to stop being so fearful of a different way of life, when they learn respect for one another and practice it, then maybe everyone will learn how to get along a bit better.

Max [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bob S.]

Hey Rik, sorry about that whole Americanized-attitudes-thing. But we are a bit bloated and are looked both up to as a society and down on as a government. I would ask other countries to please, please stop trying to emulate us. We're screwed up.

We are also a new country. I mean, in terms of Euro-centric peoples, we are only 227 years young. England is what, 943 years old? Rome and Greece are over 2,000 years old. Maybe our youthfulness is also bad. We are in that awakard stage where our id and ego are fighting each other. Seems the id is winning. And keep in mind that our country is a bit arrogant in our "we were the first" and "our nation was an experiment" ideas. We hate to be told by other countries what to do, how to act, what to eat, etc. while at the same time, we try to convince other countries to come to democracy.

But it is my opinion that we will eventually succumb to the siren song of some of the European mores. Maybe not now, but eventually. And until now, we will keep fighting the change that we are facing. Do we stay an "innocent" nation or grow up and accept other country's opinions as possibly right in some aspects? In the meantime, try not to get bogged down by our immaturity, Europe and Austrailia.

Bob S.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
Hey Rik, sorry about that whole Americanized-attitudes-thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bob,

No need to apologize - I wasn't blaming you personally. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

[Trailscout]

I do not think that Europeans are doomed to adopt the worst of American pop culture.

In some ways America is quite old. To my north is the remnant of a village of the mound builders, ancestors of the Creek nation. The mounds and artifacts are 500 years old. I have studied Cherokee medicinal and culinary plants that have been used for centuries. Europeans did not abandon their crafts, songs and folklore when they arrived on these shores. Some of the English "Jack" tales survived here in greater number than they did in England. My Scottish forbears continued to make whiskey in the "New" World just as they did in the old country, except that they had to use maize, perhaps because rye did not grow so well in Tennessee. My mother cooked time-honored Spanish and Tagalog dishes like she did before she came to this country.

Many Americans reject pop culture and draw inspiration from traditions and folkways that are as old as Europe, but combined in an American way.

Naturism and Nudism have the potential to build on both sides of the Atlantic the nucleus of a more liveable, humane and sustainable society.
We have given the superficial, anonymous, dehumanizing industrial society full rein to demonstrate what it can do for us and many of us reject the results. I am not rejecting technology, but the manner in which it is adopted, so that we are pressured to order our lives around the machine rather than have it serve us.
Living nude is part of the good life we are all looking for. It gets even better when large numbers of us share much the same vision and create nude and humane communities.

[Soleil Nu]

Here's my personal opinion on some of the topics discussed in this tread.

First, I think naturists are nicer because naturism makes them nicer. The main reason why most people keep to themselves is fear. We instinctively perceive strangers as a potential threat. But making the effort of dropping our clothes in front of others is by itself an act of trust, and once the bridge is crossed and we realize that we have nothing to worry about, our fear subsides and, consequently, we become more open, trusting, and overall nicer. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Secondly, although it may be possible that some of the american's prudishness is rubbing off onto some european countries, the reverse is also true. Toplessness is now common and accepted on US beaches where there are many european tourists. When we talk about America, we must take into account that this includes a lot of different cultures. The first wave of colonisation in the US was mostly made of european puritains that fled persecution in their own countries mostly because of their upthigt attitude towards nudity and sex. On the west coast, which was colonised much later by people of different origins, you will find that the attitude of the people towards nudity is much more relaxed. That's why you can find some states like Vermont where skinydiping is officially legal, while other states like Virginia have been known to prosecute women who change their babies diaper on a picnic table in a park... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

As for the whole nudity and art thing, let's not forget that for a long time, nudity was "tolerated" in art, as long as the subject wasn't "human", meaning it had to be a representation of a mythical figure: goddes, nymph, siren, etc. That's why Edouard Manet's "Le d?jeuner sur l'herbe" was so controversial at the time: it depicted a perfectly normal female human being, nude amongst clothed men ! Gasp ! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I agree with Outdoorbare about the nudity-porn thing. Sky, you and I may not automaticaly associate nudity and sex, but the fact is that most westerners do. And the porn and fashion industries know and exploit that. It is also in their interest that this automatic association remains in the mind of people.

Finally, please excuse the quality of my english, as it is not my native language.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soleil Nu:
Finally, please excuse the quality of my english... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's better than the English of many English people I know. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

Soleil Nu...I like your way of thinking and writing ..clear and to the point...please stick around and share your insight...Odb /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Trailscout]

Soleil,

Please tell us about the reception that naturism has in Canada. If you are from Quebec province, perhaps you could compare it to other provinces.

Please allow me to dissent from one point you made: The Puritans were not driven out of Europe because of their attitude about nudity and sex, but because they disagreed with the state churches about other matters enough to form their own illegal churches.

Even from early colonial days, it is more accurate to speak of a much broader stream of evangelical Christian immigrants than Puritans alone. It is true that many of them adopted very harsh attitudes toward the nude body, perhaps inspired by John Calvin. A short list of these colonial settlers to America includes: Salzburgers, Amish, Church of England congregants, Mennonites, Lutherans from Scandinavia and Germany, Presbyterians from Scotland, to name a few. We were a wide-cross section of Europeans fairly early on.

Some of these groups were not as anti-nudity as the Puritans, but the Puritan influence seems to have affected American society at large. The high percentage of evangelical Christians in the American population does distinguish it from Europe today.

There may be a small countercurrent to the widespread anti-body sentiment in America.
The fact that America was a largely rural nation for much of its history did provide a small impetus for the emergence and retention of rural skinnydipping traditions.

We must be careful to distinguish today's mainstream evangelicals from the more radical arch-conservative opponents of social nudism. People of faith are beginning to discover that social nudity is often not a dangerous temptation to sexual misconduct and may actually be a deterrent. I hope the trend continues. Sites such as INA and the Christian naturist movement can go a long way toward affirmation of social nudity as a beneficial experience in the Christian life.

[nude in wheelchair]

Amen to that.

[Soleil Nu]

Outdoorbare: Thank you. But I think my "clear and to the point" way of writing has more to do with the fact that, not being fluent with the english language, I have no choice but to write this way if I want my sentences to make any sense... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trailscout: Thanks for educating me on the religious history of the US, which, I must admit, is not one of my strong points. I'll go to sleep less ignorant tonight. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for the way naturism is perceived in Canada, I can only speak for Quebec since I have not travelled a lot in the other provinces and, as some of you may know, there is a big cultural gap between Quebec and the rest of the country.

Here in Quebec, I can safely say that, in general, nudism is no big deal. For the most part, people could'nt care less. There are lots of nudist resorts, Oka beach is the second largest nude beach in Canada, even though it is an unofficial one. I have never had to hide my affinity for being nude from anyone. My parents and siblings know about it, so do my friends, co-workers and even my boss. No one cares. Very few share my affinity with nudity, but most see it simply as one more oddity in my already bizarre personnality... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I live in the country near a small lake, and I have neighbours on both side. I swim and sunbathe in the nude in my back yard, whether or not my neighbours are there. I've been doing this for more than ten years and they haven't called the police on me yet. They still wave at me when they see me ouside, smile at me when we meet and talk to me on occasion. The subject of my nudity has never been brought up between us. Still, I don't think I could do this if I lived in town or even in the suburbs (unless I had a privacy fence), but here it's no problem. I even know of a few neighbors who skinydip on occasion.

I do a lot of hiking, and I always swim nude in any body of water I encounter, usualy when I am alone or only with friends. However, if other hikers arrive after I have undressed, they usually say nothing, or in rare occasions, join me.

[skyclad85]

Soleil Nu -

Hi! Correct me if I am wrong, but soleil means *sun*, yes? What does nu mean?

Here where I live in the US, nudity is a no-no. (Well, not everywhere, but in most places.) I've read that it's OK for a woman to go top-free here (assuming that there are no county or local laws which state otherwise), but I have never, never seen a woman take advantage of it. The community here is very conservative, so I think I would cause a big, big commotion if I gave it a try. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Unfortunately, my parents are strictly the clothes type. So, I have to confine my nudity to moments of opportunity - over my boyfriend's house, (his family are nudist), when my parents are not home, or when I go for my nightly walks in the yard just before going to bed.

That's pretty cool that nudity is accepted where you are. Why do you think that is? Many people I know here in the states think a nude body is about sex. I disagree.

[nude in wheelchair]

I been to Quebec when I was 14 or 15 I can see how it it has a gap from being old and very pleasent to visit(even though it no wheelchair friendly I'm not in any way to change that)The Casal is wonderful the lake is big and narow for an hight. I like to see it again some day. Oh is that old fort still running?

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soleil Nu:
...not being fluent with the english language...

...For the most part, people could'nt care less... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have to agree with Rik: your English is better than most Americans' too. For example, many of them will say "I could care less," when what they really mean is "could NOT care less," as you have correctly stated above. American idiom gets it exactly backwards! Isn't that silly?

Anyway, welcome to the forum, pal. Your input is very interesting. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
For example, many of them will say "I could care less," when what they really mean is "could NOT care less," as you have correctly stated above. American idiom gets it exactly backwards! Isn't that silly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've noticed it too and never understood why American's say that. Is there a logical reason for it?

Rik

[missouriboy]

All I can think of is to paraphrase the old maxim, "monkey see, monkey do," with "monkey hear, monkey say."

People over here also use the non-word "alot" a lot! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[David77]

I can certainly understand all of you who post from the UK, and I have learned some of your expressions. I have guessed at some of the other words. For instance, I believe that one of you from England said that since you were nude, you found it necessary, under the circumstances, to put on a "dressing gown". Men (or women?) do not have anything called "dressing gowns" here in USA, so I mentally translated that as "bathrobe" or "robe", and I suppose I am correct.
My girlfriend, with a humorous smile, wondered if a dressing gown was a night gown like that used years ago with a long stocking cap - but that is stretching the imagination too far and back too many centuries.

However, I am glad all these posts are typed. When I hear some English actor's speech in movies, I can not determine what they are saying sometimes. However, I can understand what the TV newscasters on the BBC say. I can understand the speech of your queen and Tony Blair, for instance, and many others from the UK speaking on our TV programs.

Our life painting group has a wonderful, well educated friend from the middle part of England whom, very unfortunately for me, I do not understand his speech very well, and truly wish we communicated better, without all the repeating and guessing at the speech. He is a very fine person. I am going to spend seven days in London but do not expect that the "language barrier" will be too daunting.

[Rik]

Britain and America: two countries separated by a common language. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A dressing gown is not quite the same as a bathrobe but it achieves the same thing. I'd say that a bathrobe would be made of towelling material whereas a dressing gown would be made of some heavier material. You don't see many dressing gowns these days - they're a bit old fashioned. It's not a night gown as that's worn in bed. Maybe some people still wear a night cap but mostly they drink one (does that translate?).

A dressing gown:
http://www.fatpack.co.uk/Dressing_gown.jpg

A nightcap:
http://www.magicmakers.com/retail/Hats/nightcap.jpg

My sort of nightcap:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:JhsM0FPTqZYC:www.whiskeycafe.com/assets/images/whiskey.jpg

Rik

[bertirolioliolo potatolioliololiolo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rik:
[QB] Britain and America: two countries separated by a common language. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A dressing gown is not quite the same as a bathrobe but it achieves the same thing.


Rick, your dressing gown description is
perfect !
Now do a smoking jacket ! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[David77]

I see! Thank you.

Yes, "drinking a night cap" means the same here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skyclad85:
Soleil Nu -

Hi! Correct me if I am wrong, but soleil means *sun*, yes? What does nu mean? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You asked him, but I'll respond: "Nu" means naked. So Soleil Nu equals Naked Sun.

Skyclad, is that you in the image? If so, it's a beautiful photo of a lovely young woman. (It's a sign of how screwed up we Americans are that I hesitated to write that for fear you'd think I wanted to take you to bed just because I gave you a compliment, like I would compliment any textile woman on a fine dress or hairstyle.)

[skyclad85]

Hi Jochanaan!

No, that's not me - I don't have a scanner as of yet, nor a pic. that I would like to post here. That's an avatar I found on this site.

And don't worry about the compliment thing. I appreciate a sincere compliment (even when the photo isn't even me - LOL!) I think American society is overly politically correct right now. It gets hard at times to say something without getting somebody, somewhere p.o.ed.

Hopefully, my parents will spring for a scanner, and I will get a decent pic of myself for posting.

We'll see. . . .

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skyclad85:
Hopefully, my parents will spring for a scanner, and I will get a decent pic of myself for posting.

We'll see. . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know what you mean. I'm looking for an inexpensive digital camera/Webcam now; you know, those things you get spam about. Then maybe those on the board will have a face to put with jochanaan. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, does anyone know how well those things work?

[Jeff Samuel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rik:
It's often said that if naturist venues alowed unlimited single males then they would become overrun with single males and drive away all the females and families. Well guess what? It's not true. I encountered just three or four singles (male and female)so where are all these single males waiting to flock to naturist clubs? A figment of someone's imagination I think.


Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The reason it is different in Europe is because nudity is more common in the home and outside of naturism. As a result there is a better representation of gender and age at nude sites. Because of that, there is not a stigma attached to adult men. Therefore, lone men are not shunned.

I visited a few European FKK sites and noticed that teens were quite comfortable hanging out there in the nude. My wife played paddle ball with a 13 year old boy, no problem with him or his parents that both were nude. In America nearly all teens (over 99%) are not raised where nudity is allowed in the home, except on the pages of magazines. In Europe, children are much more familiar with family nakedness so nudity at the beach is not a big jump.

If there was a normal representation of people at nudist sites then men would be welcomed. I welcome men to see my female family members naked. What bothers me is when in a group of say 50 people my family are the only ones below the age of 25, which is common at American sites. So people like me are not imagining anything because it is reality.

See my article entitled Ordinary Nakedness at www.reject-shame.com (http://www.reject-shame.com)

[Soleil Nu]

Hi all ! Sorry for the late reply, I'm just back from a 3 day camping trip. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes Sky, as Jochanaan mentionned, "nu" meens naked, and "Soleil Nu" meens "Naked Sun".

If you live in New York State, then yes, topfreedom is legal there. And I don't think county or city laws can override this, since these cannot take precedence over a state ruling. But I'm no lawyer, so maybe I'm totally wrong on that one...

As for the reason why nudity is more accepted here than where you live, it's hard to be sure. Because of Quebec's deeply catholic religious background, nudity was very frowned upon here also only about 50 years ago, maybe even more so than in the rest of North America. But religion was all but completely abandonned here since the early seventies, and Quebec beeing the most "european" region of Canada, I guess tolerance for nudism (and many other alternative lifestyles) came with the package.

I visited the Keene Valey region with a couple of female friends a few years ago. We spent quite a few days swimming and sunbathing on the shores of the East Branch Ausable River. I was always nude and my friends were topless. Although I was the only one actually doing something illegal, my friends were the most nervous of us three !

And, by the way, I personnaly found the people quite tolerant of my nudity. On occasion, passers-by would come along and see my nude self and topless friends and not seem to care at all. Often they'd smile and wave and we would smile and wave right back. Noone even remotely seemed surprised or offended. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fred950]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rik


My sort of nightcap:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:JhsM0FPTqZYC:www.whiskeycafe.com/assets/images/whiskey.jpg

Rik [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A toast, I'll drink to that!