I need advice, quickly!!!

[Trud]

Situation: have a bathroom with 4.5 ft by 4.5 ft shower with two shower heads. Family consisting of Dad (me), Mom, and almost 7 year old daughter enjoy taking family showers together, complete with water fights. Occasionally Dad takes showers with just daughter (say 1 time every 3 months). Family showers are say once every three weeks. This is the only nude recreation we take part in (wife not interested in more right now). Nothing sexual occurs, no child abuse, nothing. My wife enjoys the shower time, I think our open acceptance of nudity is a good and healthy thing and my daughter loves the showers.

Problem: Dominant tending mother-in-law does not approve. She feels the showers violate Christian principles of modesty and also feels that should someone from child protection services find out that we would have legal nightmares. The pressure is strong.

I need advice because my wife Beth and I pledged to make a decision after sleeping on it for a few days. We will decide one way or another on continuing the showers. What are our legal risks if any if we continue them, what can we say to Beth's mother to allay some of her fears, etc. Lastly, how do I calm my jittery wife and if we discontinue the showers, what do I say to my daughter who loves them and cries as she contemplates their possible termination?

Thanks for the help,

Guy

[Trud]

Situation: have a bathroom with 4.5 ft by 4.5 ft shower with two shower heads. Family consisting of Dad (me), Mom, and almost 7 year old daughter enjoy taking family showers together, complete with water fights. Occasionally Dad takes showers with just daughter (say 1 time every 3 months). Family showers are say once every three weeks. This is the only nude recreation we take part in (wife not interested in more right now). Nothing sexual occurs, no child abuse, nothing. My wife enjoys the shower time, I think our open acceptance of nudity is a good and healthy thing and my daughter loves the showers.

Problem: Dominant tending mother-in-law does not approve. She feels the showers violate Christian principles of modesty and also feels that should someone from child protection services find out that we would have legal nightmares. The pressure is strong.

I need advice because my wife Beth and I pledged to make a decision after sleeping on it for a few days. We will decide one way or another on continuing the showers. What are our legal risks if any if we continue them, what can we say to Beth's mother to allay some of her fears, etc. Lastly, how do I calm my jittery wife and if we discontinue the showers, what do I say to my daughter who loves them and cries as she contemplates their possible termination?

Thanks for the help,

Guy

[Soleil Nu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Guy Trudeau:
Situation: have a bathroom with 4.5 ft by 4.5 ft shower with two shower heads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL ! Your shower is larger than my entire bathroom ! I envy you... http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Guy Trudeau:
Problem: Dominant tending mother-in-law does not approve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who is raising your children ? You, or your mother-in-law ?

I know I have as much political correctness as an elephant in a china boutique, but I would politely and diplomatically tell your mother-in-law to mind her own business. Controlling in-laws are a very common problem, one that must be dealt with early and swiftly.

[Sauna]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Who is raising your children ? You, or your mother-in-law ?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you agree with your wife is the important thing. Mother-in-law is not a family member and you can tell her that in Finland which is christian country entire families have weekly naked sauna baths without any problems.

[nudenwv]

wow! what a problem! i would say if it were me to hold off on the group showers! even-tho nothing sexual is going on and it's all innocent, your wife has to be reassured of the uncertainty your mother-in-law has created! once things have cooled down then i would comtinue without many people knowing! hope this helps and good luck!

[shãybare]

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
I think I would continue the showers and have YOUR WIFE tell her mother to butt-out.

While I agree it would be good to give your mother-in-law some facts about the benefits of nudism, I know from experience that facts do not overcome emotions much of the time.

[closit2000]

I suspect that there are other areas of your life where your mother-in-law has an effect. Even if it takes professional counciling on techniques to get her to realize it is your family, not hers, i would be rushing off to get help. Good luck.

[NudeAl]

I would say it is time to take a stand about who is in charge of raising your kids. Your mother in law may not take this to well and of course you should take this up with your wife but IMHO she needs to butt out. I would reccomend restricting and reducing the amount of family info she has access to. I would also make it clear to her that should she take it upon herself to go to child services she whould have a very difficult time seeing her grand-daughter.

I know she is just trying to do what she thinks best but her time to raise children has passed. It is you and your wife's turn and she should respect your wishes. It is just terrible what has happened to families living in fear because some moral busy body who has no idea of the situation feels empowered to call in the authorities on a peaceful family.

I hope you can resolve this to your satisfaction. I don't know how families do it now a days. Too many big brther types out there trying to get into your family business. Goodluck

[naturalmanwa]

I think your M-I-L brings up a valid point. Sooner or later as you daughter grows older or your wife talks to a freind, someone else will find out. This may lead to authorities stepping in. Something you don't need. I see nothing wrong with family showers, and perhaps your mother in law might have a different point of view if she was to participate. I think I would continue the family shower and drop the shower with daughter only just to be safe. No one needs legal problems.

[Caipora]

I've never had any experience with CPS, but from all I've read they illustrate Will Rodgers' admonition, "Just be glad you're not getting all the government you're paying for."

I recall a woodworker who kept by his phone a list of the best hand surgeons in his area. He didn't let fear of injury keep him from his hobby, but he did a little prudent preparation, just in case.

Follow the woodworker's lead, and raise your family the way you want, but spend a few hours on precautions. If there's a CPS survivors group in your area, get in touch and get advice from someone who's been there. Talk to a lawyer about how to react if you do get a CPS visit. He'll probably advise the minimum of cooperation and tell you what that is, and tell you how to make them document everything, so it's not your word against CPS's.

It may be worthwhile, too, to become a "card-carrying" nudist. If there's a convenient pidgeonhole that you can be fit into, that may be all it takes to make Them go away.

- Caipora

[Rik]

If you want to live your life by other people's agendas then do as your MIL says.

If you value your integrity then do what you believe is right.

Rik

[Nude in the North]

My first question is, Why or How did your MIL find out?
My second question is, Why does she still get to visit?

My FIL once tried to tell me how to raise my kids. I made it fairly clear that it wasn't any of his business. And if he didn't like it he knew where the door was.
Never had another problem.

I agree that it's your Wife that should tell her to butt out of how you raise your kids.
And I see no problem with CPS finding out. First, you don't tell anyone. Second, you don't tell anyone.
There is nothing wrong with showering together if that's you family tradition. Don't let fear of the unknown cause you to stop. By now your daughter knows more about anatomy than most teens. Do you really want to set an example of caving in to peer pressure and becomming ashamed of her body?

It's pretty easy for Me and some of the others to give advice like this. And we really don't know what your MIL is like, or any other part of the situation.
I wish you the best with the situation.
Proceed with Caution.

Steve

[Rabid_Clam]

There is nothing wrong in what you are doing. Yet this is open to allot of contraversary by others that simply do not need to be privy to your habits. Is just none of their business and is wrong of your to 'fill in the gaps' by telling them.

Some things you keep to yourselves and you share others. One needs to learn where the line is drawn to share or not share and this crosses the line into the not share but you did.

Now you have a problem keeping mother-in-law out of other business that is not hers to be a part of but she may insist. You may need to quietly and diplomatically in a very polite way simply not tell her answers to some questions.

Good luck !

[nakednudists]

This one is simple...just tell your MIL that you have terminated the showering and have everyone keep it on the down low.
Problem solved. Mil is happy and so are you guys!

[Nu]

The family showers are once every three weeks.

If the mother-in-law is visiting during these 3 weeks, hold off on the family shower until after she leaves.
This will ease her feelings and avoid a scene.
It also relieves your wife of choosing to support her mother or her husband.

If she is visiting for more than 3 weeks and this is causing concern for you; then, your wife needs to tactfully talk to her mother.
In a marriage, the spouse deserves the support.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakednudists:
This one is simple...just tell your MIL that you have terminated the showering and have everyone keep it on the down low.
Problem solved. Mil is happy and so are you guys! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not advice that I could support. Lying will not help you with this problem. Eventually the lie will come out, and now you will have a MIL who knows that you cannot be trusted.

You and your wife need to be a team on the issue of how to deal with her mother. Hopefully both of you are grown up enough that you can jointly tell her, "Mom, thanks for your concern, but we will handle this from now on." Alternatively you could invite her to join all of you in the shower so that she'll see that nothing but fun is going on." http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

And if you can't be a team to handle this jointly as grown-up adults? Then you'll likely have more problems as Mom feels more and more authorized to help run your lives.

So the place to start is by talking with your wife, sharing your feelings with each other (not just your opinions). Good luck.

[WacoTX]

If your MIL's concern is that it is not Christian, send her a copy of FigLeaf Forums newsletters Nos, 100 & 101. Invite her to shower with you.

[takeitontherun]

First of all, I too want your shower!
Secondly, you need to somehow find out what would go down IF those nasty buttinkskis called Social Services found out because I can pretty much guarantee you, your children would be removed from the home and that is a nightmare as i know all too well (different matter). How to find out? Call their number from a payphone just in case and simply ask the question.
Now, do I even want to know why it was felt okay to tell the mother in law about the showers together???? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[justnude]

While I totally agree that the choice belongs to you, your wife and, naturally your daughter, the mother in law can be an issue. My advice is to simply not speak of it to her again. A simple, "we've taken care of it" should be enough without an outright lie.

[Trud]

I have this stamp in my stamp cllection!

Guy

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sauna:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Who is raising your children ? You, or your mother-in-law ?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you agree with your wife is the important thing. Mother-in-law is not a family member and you can tell her that in Finland which is christian country entire families have weekly naked sauna baths without any problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Trud]

I'm not sure I like the apparent insinuation here but whatever. My daughter asked, in fron of Grandma, if she could take a shower with me.

Guy

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by takeitontherun:
First of all, I too want your shower!
Secondly, you need to somehow find out what would go down IF those nasty buttinkskis called Social Services found out because I can pretty much guarantee you, your children would be removed from the home and that is a nightmare as i know all too well (different matter). How to find out? Call their number from a payphone just in case and simply ask the question.
Now, do I even want to know why it was felt okay to tell the mother in law about the showers together???? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Trud]

Thank you all for your advice. Here is the decision we made: showers between Dad and daughter are done with, no exceptions. Family showers (complete with water fights!) will occur on occasion.

Incidently, do you know how to have a good water fight? You have one shower head set on warm water, and a shower hose set on cold water. Daughter has giant cups that she fills with cold water from the hose or from the leftover water on the floor. Put it all together and you have the makings of a great water fight.

Guy

[Buff Man in MI]

I did a quick google search and found this Messageboard (http://www.healthboards.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-75338.html) with a similar topic. I have not read all of the responses, but this seems to be a more controversial issue than I would have thought at first glance. Most of the one's I've read seem to think that it's not only wrong, but sick for a child to see their parent nude.

I will start with the following caveats: I am not a lawyer, nor do I have kids, I am single. As I see it, I would not think that CPS would have a problem with your familial showering practices. If a complaint was made by your MIL, CPS would simply take the information from your MIL and maybe drop by for an interview. I'd guess that their response would be dependant upon the claims you MIL made and the CPS officer you who responded. There is no law that I've heard of against familial showers, so your daughter would just tell the caseworker that there is nothing "hinky" going on, and that she likes it and is completely comfortable with it. I'd give CPS a pre-emptive call to ask the question in advance and tell them the MIL situation, that you are being threatened by her. Ask if they could send you a letter (written generically) that you could show your MIL or refer you to some information or books to show your MIL that it's not a problem. Parents have the legal right to impart their system of values to their children, as long as doing so doesn't violate the law, directly endanger them, or cause physical or mental abuse to them. For instance, if you had to drag your daughter kicking and screaming into the shower with you and your wife then that would be a problem. But as you've presented it, I don't see your MIL as having any standing in the matter.

I have heard of nudist parents who got divorced where one parent continued in nudism, but the other didn't. Since the divorce wasn't amicable, the parent who didn't continue in nudism called CPS on the other one. I am sure that those types of cases have had a variety of outcomes, because there are always a variety of factors that can affect them, but those that I've heard of have invariably had CPS or a Judge side with the nudist as having a valid right to continue to impart his/her values on the child. I would imagine that one factor affecting the outcome would be which of the parents was the primary custodian.

Your MIL would of course be alienating herself from your family and once it all blew over you'd simply tell her that she was no longer to contact your family. Or you could take a protection order out against her.

I sort of view nudism as a religion, or at least a philosophy that is very important in my life. I equate your situation to the inevitable fights that break out when parents make decisions to bring their kids up in a religion different from their parents. For instance, my parents had problems with Catholocism, They would have had the same problems with Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology.

My advice would be to make a call to CPS yourself and get more information, then sit down with your MIL and present your case to her. Then I'd invite her to join in, or watch.

[takeitontherun]

Can i have that shower then!!?? lol..........my 4 yr. old boy announced he was showering with me this morning out of the blue.....hmmmm.......

[takeitontherun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Parents have the legal right to impart their system of values to their children, as long as doing so doesn't violate the law, directly endanger them, or cause physical or mental abuse to them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, no, actually, parents lose all rights the second those DHS jackasses even think you have done something wrong and until proven otherwise, you dont get within two feet of your child and believe me, it is hell on earth to give birth and have it be able to be removed so easily.

[jjow]

The child is yours, not your MIL's. Do not make a hasty decision due to her interferience. If you do, it will not be the last. I dare to say this is probably not the first.

Discuss this with your wife: Do you want your MIL in every aspect of your life. Decide that first. Then tell your MIL your decision. THEN make the decision about the showers.

[Okie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by takeitontherun:
Can i have that shower then!!?? lol..........my 4 yr. old boy announced he was showering with me this morning out of the blue.....hmmmm....... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did he join you? I hope so, there is nothing wrong with this.

[Florida Cracker]

I read an article a couple of years ago about the water shortages in California (back when wildfires were really a problem). The article was in the newspaper (my guess is an AP story since it was in our local paper here in Florida). The article said that county officials were ENCOURAGING families to shower together to SAVE WATER. The article even had a picture of a family in the shower together (from waist up and the mother was facing away from the camera). It seems that a search might turn up the article and it could be saved to show Dept. Family Services if need be.
Florida Cracker

[Buff Man in MI]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by takeitontherun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Parents have the legal right to impart their system of values to their children, as long as doing so doesn't violate the law, directly endanger them, or cause physical or mental abuse to them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, no, actually, parents lose all rights the second those DHS jackasses even think you have done something wrong and until proven otherwise, you dont get within two feet of your child and believe me, it is hell on earth to give birth and have it be able to be removed so easily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, LOL, yes, actually, I didn't say that CPS couldn't or wouldn't remove the kids, check things out, and if everything is okay and safe for the child as I stated, return them, for the parent to continue to raise them and impart their system of values.

Now, if there is something wrong, then the best interests of the child are taken into account, sometimes that means a permanent removal from the home, often it means returning the children after a temporary separation. The facts of the individual case would influence those decisions. (Having a good/agressive lawyer would probably help.)

I am not saying that there aren't those exceptional cases in which the system goes awry, resulting in injustices being done. That happens whenever humans are involved. But, the parents, not the state, are responsible for imparting values on children.

[Trailscout]

A lot of our comments have been defensive, that is, we don't see the harm in a parent taking a shower with a child, but why are we always on the defensive? Isn't it obvious that the nudist lifestyle brings a lot of positive things into family life? Let's not forget that this is a precious time that we don't get too much of. Too soon our children are off into their own circle of friends and responsibilities.

We need this time with our kids.

[tarsus]

i have had run ins with cps myself. be careful is my advice.
most of these people are young,most likely never even changed a "loaded" diaper,yet tell you how to best rise a child. that warning aside;raise your child as you see best.
mif needs to butt out.what is christen? we all know what john 3.16 says,but read to two greatest commandnents;
in a nutshell are love God and neighbor as you love yourself.
even those who do not follow a chirstian belief,should follow the princple of love
yes i envy your shower also. and finally if the child is comfortable with it,thats all that matters. "it's not christian" is a lame excuse too many use use to justify their own ideas. and yes i am a christian.

[tarsus]

ione more thing; please excuse typos everyone; trouble with vision latley, some may remember i am a diabetic. now back to the subject.

[naturalmanwa]

Some good thoughts, Tarsus. Some of these people are better than others. My thought is that MIL is family and very special to the wife. She should be treated with love and respect, and enlightened about the nudist/naturist movement. She might not agree but perhaps would be able to see the parents side of it. The old saying about flies and honey applies here! I don't recall that she threatened to call CPS, but school officials would or perhaps parents of a daughter's freind.

[Caipora]

Congradulations to Trud who seems to have made a balanced decision.

On the chance that others in a similar situation may read this thread for advice, I'm going to take exception to Buff Man's advice that <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'd give CPS a pre-emptive call to ask the question in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Despite what you may have been told in first grade, Mr. Policeman is not your friend. Nor is CPS.

That you will win "in the long run" is not relevant. As John Maynard Keynes pointed out, in the long run we are all dead.

Any sort of criminal legal process is easy to start, and hard to stop. That you will be vindicated after weeks, months or years of heartache and expense is scarcely helpful.

Something like this "blows over" in the same way that a hurricane "blows over", leaving a trail of damage, destruction, and enormous expense.

There are states where getting on a list of sexual predators for the rest of your life does not require that you be convicted, but merely that you have been accused or investigated.

Above in this thread I mentioned the woodworker who kept a list of local hand surgeons by the phone. Here's another analogy: treat CPS and the police on your doorstep the same way you'd treat a vampire: don't invite them in.

Merely that you are innocent provides absolutely no protection against being accused. That you are eventually vindicated does not mean that in the meantime you have not had your life shattered and spent everything you have, and then some, to defend yourself.

Do not call CPS. Do not invite them into your house, or into your life. I don't think anyone has ever said, "Boy, I'm glad I invited CPS to look into my life."

- Caipora

[l2ltlarry]

Caipora, what a lot of good advice! I would hope people who lean toward bureaucratic solutions or warm feelings toward bureaucrats( "writing-desk rulers", i.e., not adequately connect with the real world and how life really works) could hear what you are saying. I've experienced too much of life and the devastation of bureaucrats to think that people who believe in bureaucrats (judicial systems, law enFORCEment, CPS, and the like) are ever going to "get it" on this issue.

I don't think many people know Franz Kafka well enough. We definitely live in a Kafkaesque world, in which good is bad, black is white, up is down, forward is backward, everything is twisted by the powers-that-be so that nothing is real. I guess an "Alice in Wonderland" world would be another way of saying it, except "Alice" and "Wonderland" sound like good things; Franz Kafka's world DEFINITELY is not a good thing.

So, Trud & others, please take Caipora's excellent advice.

[l2ltlarry]

taurus, it's good to see you back. As I recall, when you used to post, we were on the same wave-length much of the time.

[Buff Man in MI]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Caipora:
Congradulations to Trud who seems to have made a balanced decision.

On the chance that others in a similar situation may read this thread for advice, I'm going to take exception to Buff Man's advice that <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'd give CPS a pre-emptive call to ask the question in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do not call CPS. Do not invite them into your house, or into your life. I don't think anyone has ever said, "Boy, I'm glad I invited CPS to look into my life."

- Caipora </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are in Brazil, right? It strikes me as odd that you'd know so much about what happens in the U.S. when most U.S. citizens don't.

There is nothing wrong with asking "What if" type questions, in fact it can go a long way towards learning the actual facts, since there seem to be a lot of myths and anecdotal stories floating around. I stand behind that advice. There is also the opportunity of getting them on your side, by educating them. Raising your children as nudists is perfectly legal, just as raising them Baptist, Catholic, Jewish or Pagan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Caipora:
There are states where getting on a list of sexual predators for the rest of your life does not require that you be convicted, but merely that you have been accused or investigated.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who's list? Not a U.S. State's Official list. Maybe that's true for some unofficial lists (for instance if I were keeping a list), but not true of official lists. Maybe in some Brazilian states that is true, I don't know. But you could say that monkeys worked in coffee shops there and I wouldn't know any different.

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buff Man in MI:
I did a quick google search and found this Messageboard (http://www.healthboards.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-75338.html) with a similar topic. I have not read all of the responses, but this seems to be a more controversial issue than I would have thought at first glance. Most of the one's I've read seem to think that it's not only wrong, but sick for a child to see their parent nude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Interestingly not one of the many respondents who thought it was sick or weird came up with any reason why it should be. The nearest one got was to suggest that a child seeing a parent naked would lead them to "ask questions" - as if a child asking questions about the human body was a bad thing.

From a European perspective I feel I should add that to most Europeans (even the relatively prudish UK) this is really a non-issue. I can't imagine anyone questioning the fact that families might shower together - indeed I suspect it's a quite normal occurence, certainly up to the onset of puberty.

Rik

[Bob S.]

Trud, I don't know if I read that wrong, but I read the warning from MIL as almost a veiled threat. I do hope I am wrong. If that was the case, then MIL should be excluded from daughter's life.

"Here is the decision we made: showers between Dad and daughter are done with, no exceptions. Family showers (complete with water fights!) will occur on occasion."

I respect your decision, but I feel that is is one based on fear, which is a bad motivation in making parental decisions. I think that as long as everyone is comfortable with it, you should continue. Even the daddy-daughter showers.

Just curious how you are going to/have told your daughter about the new shower policy. She will wonder why she can't take a shower with her favorite daddy. Also curious if the showers are the only outlet for family nudity or if you have an open policy regarding clothes at home. Are you naked outside of the bathroom around each other? If not and you want to continue, why not talk with wife about making nudity an option inside the home (if you have a private yard, in the backyard as well).

Bob S.

[Trud]

OK, I think I need to clarify some things here. Many of you read into (incorrectly) my initial posting that MIL threatens to call CPS. I'm not sure how that got started but she has made no such threats and I doubt she would. But in her view (she's correct), someone else who finds out might call CPS.

Also, showering together and waterfights are the only nudity my wife is comfortable with around the house although I am nude often (both wife and daughter know this) when I am home alone or when they are asleep.

As for explaining to my daughter why daddy/daughter showers have ended, she and I had a talk. I explained that Grandma (really a good soul even if she is domineering) and Mama were raised to think nudity was wrong. I then set Anna straight about nudity. I told her that the human body (and I specifically said "your body") was created in God's image and likeness and when he created her, he pronounced her good! I told her not to ever believe that her body is bad and/or sinful.

Incidently, my daughter knows that there are cultures where nudity is quite common and we do have art books here with nudes in them. She has also seen movies with National Geographic type nudity in them (i.e. "The Mission" - 1986).

Trud

[Caipora]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by Buff Man in MI:

Originally posted by Caipora:
[QUOTE]There are states where getting on a list of sexual predators for the rest of your life does not require that you be convicted, but merely that you have been accused or investigated.[QUOTE]

Who's list? Not a U.S. State's Official list.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's an MSNBC article mentioning the State of California's list of accused but not convicted:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8589560/

Originally posted by Buff Man in MI:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are in Brazil, right? It strikes me as odd that you'd know so much about what happens in the U.S. when most U.S. citizens don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am, and I do. Thank you for the compliment.

Trud's more recent post again shows an appropriate and nuanced approach to the situation, which is something one cannot expect of child abuse "professionals", who make a living from this sort of accusation, and cannot be expected to minimize their livelihood.

As to "National Geographic" style nudity, I note that the premier children's television show here, Castelo Ratimbum, has a couple of Indian boys (actually white, in makeup) who turn up in indigenous tales. Brazilian Indians traditionally do not wear clothes. These two don't either, and there's no coy photography.

- Caipora

[blackrebel]

Sometimes we as nudists forget that the world has a different view and that is when we tend to 'impose' our lifestyle on others. At times that reaches an 'in your face' level, no matter how subtle we are about it.

At times, doing what is 'correct' and what is 'right' may take different paths. WE know that it is usually okay and also that your MIL wants what is best for her grand child. This is where the 2 opinions have 2 paths and at times, it is best to just keep your mouths shut and keep the peace. What happens in the home stays in the home.

[Buzzer]

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifWell stated, Blackrebel!

[Buff Man in MI]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Caipora:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by Buff Man in MI:

Originally posted by Caipora:
[QUOTE]There are states where getting on a list of sexual predators for the rest of your life does not require that you be convicted, but merely that you have been accused or investigated.[QUOTE]

Who's list? Not a U.S. State's Official list.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's an MSNBC article mentioning the State of California's list of accused but not convicted:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8589560/

Originally posted by Buff Man in MI:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are in Brazil, right? It strikes me as odd that you'd know so much about what happens in the U.S. when most U.S. citizens don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am, and I do. Thank you for the compliment.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize. I am impressed by your knowledge, too! Thank you!

I do hope that that lawsuit that is mentioned in that article does go through because that is a situation that needs to be corrected. It's one thing to maintain lists of people who've been convicted of something, but it's quite another to maintain a list of those accused. If my calculations are correct, then that list has around 3.5% of California's population on it. That is scary!

There is this quote from the California website Here (http://caag.state.ca.us/childabuse/) that gives some (limited) hope that unfounded allegations do not end up on the this:
"It is important to note that the effectiveness of the index is only as good as the quality of the information reported. Each reporting agency is required by law to forward to DOJ a summary of every child abuse incident it investigates, unless the incident is determined to be unfounded or general neglect. Each reporting agency is responsible for the accuracy, completeness and retention of reports submitted."

And this is from the FAQ on that same site:
"Recently, I went to court on a child abuse case and was found innocent due to an unsubstantiated report, why is my name still on the CACI?

Because the reporting agency reported it to DOJ as substantiated or inclonclusive and the law states it has to be reported. Efforts to have your name removed should be directed to the reporting agency. The reporting agency must ask DOJ to remove the listing or the court order must direct DOJ to remove the listing. "

So it looks like that particular list is not open to the general public, but public agencies. Also, there are ways to be removed from the list if not convicted.