Making naturism more acceptable

[Pampelmousse]

On your site, in the pics section, there is one very interesting image which shows a large number of clothed spectators watching a nude rugby match in Dunedin. Such a scenario is surely one which genuine naturists should wish to encourage. Why, therefore, are we usually much more "secretive" about our lifestyle? If, for example, a naturist wishes to shed his/her clothes on a beach that is usually considered textile this should not be problem, and therefore the standard philosophy of the moderators of this website - that naturists should not stray from officially designated areas - is a trifle absurd. Any comments on this.

[Rabid_Clam]

To stray from official designated areas nude is far from free of risk of many trials. One is of arrest. Another is that of assault.

Is prudent to do as the romans do. To force yourself nude on non receptive persons is forcing your life style on them and if they forced their lifestyle on you, you would certainly pitch an objection, rightflully so.

The best way to promote nudity is to not ruffle feathers as you shed yours.

[MJ_KC]

It all depends upon whose feathers are being ruffled and/or how many people object. If it is likely to draw the attention of law enforcement or legislators, then it is time to back off and decide how to proceed.

If only a few people object, and they can be shown that everything is going to be OK, then another nude friendly location may have been established. Places like Haulover wouldn't exist if someone didn't take the first step.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
Is prudent to do as the romans do. To force yourself nude on non receptive persons is forcing your life style on them and if they forced their lifestyle on you, you would certainly pitch an objection, rightflully so.

I agree with that philosophy as stated, nobody should be forced to be naked, or forced to be clothed. To do either is one person forcing his lifestyle on his neighbor.

Blessings
Bob

[justnude]

I must say that I strongly believe it is not correct to simply strip off in the middle of a textile beach because it feels good. For a variety of rerasons, the majority of the folks out there are not comfortable seeing a naked person no matter how innocent the circumstances may be. Why run the risk of arrest or injury? First, I feel we need to keep our own house in order and be sure that the nude beaches are not havens for the afternoon quicklie in the dune or, worse, in plain view of all. Secondly, we need to encourage more families to come on out and enjoy the nude beach. I find that when we do go there are a few couples (f/m), almost no single women, many male couples, and mainly single males roaming the beach. This is not exactly the atmosphere most families would want to bring their children to! Yes, I know, this is a gross generalization but based upon my observations.

[Fuzzy Nuts]

If I were the first to arrive on a fairly isolated beach which I didn't know if it was textile or c/o I would remove my clothes and enjoy.

As others arrived at the beach I would take my cue from them. Possibly others upon seeing me naked would also strip. If my location were given a wide berth by all those arriving I would realize that nudity was not the norm and therefore "when in Rome----"

Keeping in mind I might also be arrested lol

[Naturist Mark]

Is prudent to do as the romans do. To force yourself nude on non receptive persons is forcing your life style on them and if they forced their lifestyle on you, you would certainly pitch an objection, rightflully so.
Interesting how our use of language signals nudist acquiescence to marginalization.

To force yourself nude on non receptive persons? Why use the word "force", you aren't doing anything to them, you are choosing your own manner of dress - what could be more passive? The other person can be receptive or not, that is their free choice, your state of dress does not force anything.

if they forced their lifestyle on you, you would certainly pitch an objection, rightflully so. How interesting. Isn't that EXACTLY what the textile world does to us in nearly every public space? If they weren't forcing a lifestyle upon us, we'd be free to choose nudity when and where we felt it was appropriate, and no one else would have any say in the matter, and there certainly wouldn't be any laws involved.

I don't think you will get far if your starting position in your effort to make naturism more acceptable is to agree to not be nude. Worse yet if you agree that you should be marginalized and excluded from the get go.

A better strategy is to educate and challenge the thinking of those who object. Whenever a nudity related situation occurs (there are many every single day, and almost NONE of them have anything to do with nudists or naturists), challenge the people reacting to the nudity to explain what harm it does. Get them to think about it. Explain that the harm done by a streaker at a ball game isn't due to his nudity, but due to his interruption of the game. That the harm a flasher does is not due to exposing his pitiful shortcomings, but from his attempt to inflict mental violence in order to achieve his own sado-sexual arousal. Tell about the naked 12 year old boy who thwarted an armed robbery (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6880058252/m/4680037394?r=9060087394#9060087394) - and contrast that with the expert testimony (http://www.beachesfoundation.org/PDF_articles/BB09/AmericansDie.pdf) that most Americans would rather die than to take their clothes off for emergency decontamination in the case of chemical or biological terrorist attacks. What causes more harm - nudity or the irrational fear of it?

[NudeAl]

Obviously not many of us are willing to go to the local city parks and get nude. We use a bit more common sense than that. One thing I do is to take a look around when I am the only one at a nude friendly location.

If I am in a location that is remote and inviting of nudity I get naked. If someone else shows up I will lay low so to speak but I will remain naked until I see how they react. Often times if you give things a chance you may be surprised that the others give nudism a chance. When hiking on a trail to a likely skinny dipping spot give nude hiking a try, you may be surprised by the reactions of those you pass by. Give the public a little more credit and you might be pleasantly surprised. We are comming into an age of more and more acceptance of nudity I think. We need to take advantage of things the pendulum is swinging our way again.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
To force yourself nude on non receptive persons is forcing your life style on them and if they forced their lifestyle on you, you would certainly pitch an objection, rightflully so.
I would only be forcing my lifestyle on them if I were to force them to take their clothes off and join me.

By the same token, they are free to practice their lifestyle as long as I do not have to participate with them. If they are extremely conservative, they are free to practice their religion as long as they don't expect me to join them.

There is a group of women who live just down the block from me and they are very conservative in the way they dress. They appear to be a group of nuns, or something similar, although they are not dressed the same as Catholic nuns. They can stay covered from head to toe if that is what they want, as long as they don't try to make their neighbors join them.

If they started causing any trouble because many people around here wear very skimpy attire when it gets hot, it would probably be met with open hostility. Each person should get to decide for themselves how much or how little they want to wear without government or individual interference.

[Ken Palmer]

Well, the pioneers at Halouver may have stepped up to the plate to promote our lifestyle. But I wonder how many of them paid a price by spending some nights in a jail cell after being arrested for indecent exposure when and if someone complained about them?

Ken Palmer



Originally posted by MJ_KC:
It all depends upon whose feathers are being ruffled and/or how many people object. If it is likely to draw the attention of law enforcement or legislators, then it is time to back off and decide how to proceed.

If only a few people object, and they can be shown that everything is going to be OK, then another nude friendly location may have been established. Places like Haulover wouldn't exist if someone didn't take the first step.

[Agde]

Its really about striking a balance between, on the one hand, people respecting each other's feelings and, on the other hand, people being tolerant of each other's choices, isn't it?. In a diverse society like the US, there are so many ways people can offend each other's sensibilities. I suspect that is why the US Constitution so carefully protects minority and individual rights unless others are actually harmed. At the same time, over the years while working in the States, I have seen the definition of "harm" and "offense" get kind of muddled together, the latter often becoming legislatively the former when an organized group is convincing about its electoral clout. It can be a sort of backdoor imposition of majority preferences on minority rights which undermines tolerance.

Choosing not to wear clothing, as Mark points out, does not in itself pose a threat to others. Forcing someone to dress a certain way is in fact the aggressive behavior. Why shouldn't we demand a little tolerance? It is hard to understand why people, particularly nudists, have not objected when legal adjectives got mashed into their nouns -- for instance, when did "exposure" become "indecent" by definition, rather than "indecent" being a specific subform of behavior. The real danger, as Mark again rightly points out, is when a peaceful minority acquiesce to marginalization, thereby relinquishing their right to tolerance by the majority. We nudists may find it "a trifle absurd" or even disturbingly incoherant for people to go swimming in their clothing, but we tolerate it -- as they should tolerate our decision to leave our clothes safely dry onshore. If they want to sweat in clothes when sunbathing, we don't require them to hide behind fences, nor should they us when we are acting more sensibly. I bet our families could even picnic next to each other in a public park without misfortune to anyone!
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[Stu2630]

Is prudent to do as the romans do. To force yourself nude on non receptive persons is forcing your life style on them and if they forced their lifestyle on you, you would certainly pitch an objection, rightfully so...The best way to promote nudity is to not ruffle feathers as you shed yours.

Nuggets of pure gold wisdom! Well said, Rabid_Clam! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

Mind you - if I had said that, some people here would have called me a troll or accused me of being anti-naturist. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sad3.gif


I agree with that philosophy as stated, nobody should be forced to be naked, or forced to be clothed. To do either is one person forcing his lifestyle on his neighbor.

And nobody should be forced to be around nudity when they don't expect it and they're not likely to be comfortable with it - i.e. folks like me.

Stu

[Naturist Mark]

And nobody should be forced to be around nudity when they don't expect it and they're not likely to be comfortable with it - i.e. folks like me.
Have you considered wearing these?

http://mikeduran.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/Blinders1.jpg

[TheNorm]

Remember the old x-ray glasses advertised in comic books? Maybe there's a twist there...glasses that make people appear to be clothed. Everyone who is offended by nudity would be "required" to wear them. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

[RichNH]

If I could make a small point.

This entire issue of public acceptance of naturism and nudists is one heavily affected by social norms. When dealing with social norms, particularly one that is strongly entrenched, it's majority rules. Now most of us have the good fortune of living, to one degree or another, in tolerant societies. Anyone who cares to disagree can try being a nudist in some place that isn't that tolerant, like Iran, or Afganistan under the Taliban. Anyway, the point is that majority rules when it comes to social norms, the stronger the social norm, the more power the majority weilds in enforcing that norm through laws and such.

In trying to change a social norm, particularly one that's well entrenched, one has to tread carefully. In essence, you tread upon established social norms only through the tolerance of the majority. But if you push too hard and fast, then the majority may become startled and in doing so, abandon some of their tolerance of this bucking of the herd mentality, this individualism.

There's a lot to be said for the salami technique of getting the sausage, of getting what you want slice by slice. Many people naturally like this approach, it involves getting a bit of what you want without too much risk to yourself. Others may be a bit bolder or impatient in personality and want to change things faster. This is good too, to an extent.

If you push too hard, the majority may come down on you like a load of bricks. In our tolerant society, walking nude down Main Street will probably get you a night in jail. Do that in Riyad and you may lose your head. Above all, you have to "respect" the power of the majority and what they'll do when they perceive a direct challenge. What's the expression? There are so many, don't pull on Superman's cape, don't piss into the wind. You know them. Its the same here.

There's a time and a place for pushing the boundries and there's a time and place for taking a chunk. Just like eating an ice cream cone, its mostly licks and a few bites. The trick is to know how much/little to bite so your teeth don't ache with the cold.

A person who's personality suits them to simply take advantage of the ground that's been won already is just as valid for the cause as one who's personality impels them to constantly take bites and who tries to grab as much as possible. The storekeeper is just as valid as the sodbuster who is just as valid as the railroad man who is just as valid as the mountainman. They all serve the cause, just in different ways. Some take ground in leaps and bounds and sometimes suffer for it. Others till ground that's not as contested as it once was and others serve to occupy ground that's been won, constantly reaffirming the win.

Rich

[NudeAl]

Excellent post RichNH. I like it, I like it a lot!

[Kohana_Kioni]

My wife is trying to understand my not wanting to wear clothing outdoors, even to sun tan. She has never questioned me doing it around the house, as long as our kids who are now grown are not around.

She can not believe my change, as I told her, I feel better about myself as I wish she did as well. She implied that she would not sun naked in the yard as I do, but will try and understand my position on this matter.

Like she said, her opinion will not have any effect on me in the slightest anyway, and she is right about that one.