Forgiven for Sins?

[NudistMike07]

How come christians are so nuts about banning nudity and nudism if most of them were saved by god from going to hell and he forgave all of them for their sins? I mean what is there to worry about doing? Nudism isnt sinful and even if it was, god's gonna forgive us all in the end anyways so whats the point? Besides if he really has a problem with it why doesnt he just come down here and speak up and let us know about it then?

[NudistMike07]

How come christians are so nuts about banning nudity and nudism if most of them were saved by god from going to hell and he forgave all of them for their sins? I mean what is there to worry about doing? Nudism isnt sinful and even if it was, god's gonna forgive us all in the end anyways so whats the point? Besides if he really has a problem with it why doesnt he just come down here and speak up and let us know about it then?

[melissastarr]

Excellent question, one that has been asked by many great theologians. Let me preface by saying that nudism is not a sin- nowhere in the Bible does God say it is. The big question is: if we're forgiven of our sins, why not just sin all we want to? If we're going to be forgiven anyway, what's the big deal, right? Well, there are 4 answers to that, in my eyes:

1) Even though we're forgiven of our sins, that doesn't mean we should sin. Sin is still wrong and still has horrible consequences. For example, if I commit the sin of murder I'll go to jail. On a 'lighter' note, if I act cruelly toward someone I'm going to lose their trust. Consequences still exist, even if we're forgiven.

2) My goal in life is not forgiveness- Christ already gave that to me by dying on the cross. So what is my goal? To please God and worship Him in my actions. If my actions are sinful, that's not a very good 'thank you' to God and it's not an act of praise. The Bible says that we should praise God in all we do.

3) Our actions need to be a reflection of God so that others can know who He is through us. God is loving, joyous, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. We, too, should be these things.

4) Our world is already pretty corrupt, in case you didn't notice (I'm sure you have, though.) For Christians to act as sinful as they can so that God's forgiveness would increase would cause our world to be even worse. The chaos of our world would be multiplied and life would not really be worth living because our world would be such a mess.

These are my thoughts and I'm sure others have answers, too.

Melissa

[namedun]

Holy crap Mike, do you know what you've just done? Asking something like that is like throwing a rock at a bee's nest around here. Now we'll have only three fresh topics and this same one everyday from the main page.

Namedun /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[NoodJuggler]

Amen..Cheers..NoodJuggler

[missouriboy]

melissa, you are a good teacher. Thanks for extending your talent to this board, to also teach our child poster here just one more thing that he needs to know, if he's ever going to grow...

[Buzzer]

I think your generalizing Christians as all being against nudism. There are a lot of us who see no harm in it. Clothing was invented by man, as was the measuring of passing of time(Minutes, seconds, etc.) & we all know how much damage to our nerves clock watching has done.

[Jochanaan]

melissa, missouriboy, and Buzzer, I agree with you all. I would also say that a majority of Christians haven't really studied what the Bible says, or rather doesn't say, regarding this issue.

[fred950]

Mike, I was taught that in order to be forgiven by God you must first:
A) Truely let God into your heart. This does NOT nessesarily mean becoming a 'HOO-OOLYYY ROO-OOOLLER' bent on converting each and every one of us, bur rather be at peace with Him and yourself.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
B) You must learn to forgive other as YOU want to be forgiven. If I can forgive the man who 'stole' my wife. Or the kid that sat behind me in high school science class whom taunted me something fierce--I am now one of the very few he can call on. You too, can learn (and you must learn) the fine line between forgiving without nessesarrily forgetting and burning from hate and distrust.
What I've just described is not easy, but few things in life that are worth having are.

[ntmckcpl]

Unfortunately too many Christians adhere to the old St. Augustine view that has been engrained into them from birth and passed down from many generations that Nudity = sex = sin with exception of going to the dr, taking a shower, or being in front of a married partner. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (always thought it was funny that exceptions were made to a supposed sin) What many will learn if they are truly open is that nowhere in the Bible does it state that nudity is wrong. If one is to make the argument that in Genesis it speaks of nakedness, and really does their homework, they will find that it is speaking of a spiritual nakedness and not a physical one. God only clothed Adam and Eve to protect them from the elements when they were cast out, not to hide their physical bodies. Later the Bible speaks of not looking upon the nakedness of various individuals such as family members. Once again the proper translation for nakedness is sexual relations, ie. no sex with family members. You have to go back to the original text and translate what is said into the proper usage. This country has a very long way to go with social and Christian acceptance of nudity. I only hope it is within my lifetime.

[NudistMike07]

to also teach our child poster here just one more thing that he needs to know, if he's ever going to grow...
------------------------------------------------

Child poster? Im 19, i am NOT a child! Legally im an adult. That statement seemed rather insulting but im not gonna complain about it or get upset I just thought id make people aware of that little tidbit. I just wanna show people how flawed their so called great religion can be sometimes or at least the flawed logic of the yahoos who claim to be experts that try to teach us this stuff.

[Trailscout]

Mike, it's a big world out there. The flavor of Christianity you grew up with doesn't speak on behalf of all Christians everywhere.

Many of us enjoy being nude and don't condemn it as long as your behavior is Christlike. Many of us say that we honor God when we show that we are not ashamed of the bodies he gave us to live in.

[sawdust]

Mike,
To be an expert dose not mean that you know everything. It only says that you know one more thing then the person you are talking to. BTW A professor in college taught me that point of fact.
Sawdust

[missouriboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NudistMike07:
to also teach our child poster here just one more thing that he needs to know, if he's ever going to grow...
------------------------------------------------

Child poster? Im 19, i am NOT a child! Legally im an adult. That statement seemed rather insulting but im not gonna complain about it or get upset I just thought id make people aware of that little tidbit. I just wanna show people how flawed their so called great religion can be sometimes or at least the flawed logic of the yahoos who claim to be experts that try to teach us this stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mike, I've known your chronological age ever since your very first post last December. If you discerned a bit of cynicism in my post, then perhaps you are FINALLY starting to grow. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

NO, wait, that must be wrong. In your very next sentence, you revert to thinking you're eminently qualified to tell other people the flaws in their beliefs. Childish! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

If you WOULD grow, pay attention to what Sawdust says above. Then try to recognize where you actually stand, vis-a-vis the people you continually rant at. Learn! Grow! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[hw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouriboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NudistMike07:
to also teach our child poster here just one more thing that he needs to know, if he's ever going to grow...
------------------------------------------------

Child poster? Im 19, i am NOT a child! Legally im an adult. That statement seemed rather insulting but im not gonna complain about it or get upset I just thought id make people aware of that little tidbit. I just wanna show people how flawed their so called great religion can be sometimes or at least the flawed logic of the yahoos who claim to be experts that try to teach us this stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mike, I've known your chronological age ever since your very first post last December. If you discerned a bit of cynicism in my post, then perhaps you are FINALLY starting to grow. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

NO, wait, that must be wrong. In your very next sentence, you revert to thinking you're eminently qualified to tell other people the flaws in their beliefs. Childish! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

If you WOULD grow, pay attention to what Sawdust says above. Then try to recognize where you actually stand, vis-a-vis the people you continually rant at. Learn! Grow! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Moboy, there are many people on these BB's who have major problems. From what I've seen, there are some who come from not very loving homes. Some who have been physically and/or emotionally abused. Some are looking for the thrill of seeing naked people, or looking for sex. I also feel there are many with drug/alcohol issues.

We can only do our best to educate the younger ones. We all benefit from each other; growing and learning. Some may never get it, others will only take what they need from all the posts. I value your opinion, so keep posting. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[a1922stanley]

Our sins are forgiven through Christ and his finished work on the crass. He bore OUR sins upon himself taking our punishment so that we might be saved.
So does this therefore gives us a licience to sin? The answer is simple...NO! Christ himself said..."Your sins are forgiven now go and sin no more."
Of course we have a sinful nature and we need to ask God to forgive us of our sin when we do fall into it. He is faithful and true and will forgive us as he already has on the cross. But this does not mean we can sin as much as we want. We would therefore be walking in darkenss and not boeying his comands. If we love hiem we will obey him. Take an automobile. If we run the engine out of oil and damage it, and we have it fixed, do we go and do the same thing again? No because we know the cost of repairing it. Same thing to do sin freely because Christ has forgiven us.
As to nudism and Christianity. We are not to be ashamed of God. Since we are God's creation and God's temple we should not be ashamed of it. Adam and Eve were ashamed, not of their bodies but of disobeying God. Once we accept Christ we are a new creation in him. We are called not to be ashmed of him. Since when he accept him as our savior our bodies become his temple, to be ashamed is to be ashamed of God. Therefore nudism is anything from sin.
Nudism does not equate sex. To be into porn etc is sinful and lustful to the body and spirit and that IS sin. So to conclude we do not have a licience to si, and nudism is NOT sin.

CWR

[TXK NUDE]

Well said!!!!! I assume you meant CROSS and not CRASS! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fresh Air]

Lots of nudists are christian...and many non-Christians are against nudity.

Fresh Air

I've noticed that non-Christian nudists tend to blame Christians for the world's hatred of nudity, but as Fresh Air said, there are many non-Christians who are against nudity.

[Nude in the North]

Don't blame Christians!

Blame Hypocrites!

Steve

Yes there are many non-christians against nudity. However, it is a well proven fact that almost all the legislation the last few years that go against nudity were started by organizations that call themselves christian (in the USA).

Personally I'd not call them christians. It is a label they have chosen for themselves.

Having said all that many nudists have noticed that many times nudist christians don't get upset about these groups spreading trouble in the name of christianity. Perhaps it is because you really don't know who is trying to take our nude rights away from us?

[NuTex]

I haven't rambled in a while. I think I'm overdue.

IMHO, I think we have to seperate institutional Christianity from the worldview of Christian theism.

Christian theism has always struggled to not be merged with the popular culture. At first the early Christians went so far as to establish a commune to build this wall from the world. Then over time, as Christianity became something more than just a Jewish sect, it began to merge with the larger culture. For example, this is when I believe when women were removed from sharing leadership roles in the Church.

Constantine of course established Christianity as an official State religion. When this happen it lost it's revolutionary standing and began propping up the system.

And I think that's what we're seeing when religious right Christians pass laws against naturism. We're seeing institutional Christianity supporting up our textile culture. We're not seeing Christianity itself (Christian theism) because it supports naturism.
NuTex

[hm0504]

Though I self-identify as a Christian, I don't have a problem strongly disagreeing on some issues with others who also self-identify as Christians. Similarly, I don't have a problem strongly agreeing with non-Christians on other issues. Whether we like it or not, the term "Christian" is not an accurate indicator of what a particular person thinks. Then one needs to ask what the common, foundation beliefs of Christian and outside of a few statements about God and Jesus, the rest has been argued (even among the original disciples) since Christianity began.

[David77]

I do not limit myself, by considering only the religious views of Christians, as there are many other sources of religious inspiration, wisdom and ethics outside, and in addition to, the Christian literature. The questions and considerations, being broader in scope, is addressed by creative thought of all humanity. I prefer to consider myself as a Humanist, a Naturalistic Humanist.

[namedun]

Has anyone ever seen the essay "Is Hell EndoThermic or Endothermic?"? It's quite halarious.

Namedun /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Naturist Mark]

Is Hell Endothermic or Exothermic?

A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question:

"Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:

#1 If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

#2 Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Therese Banyan during my Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you," and we take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, #2 cannot be true, and so Hell is exothermic."

-Mark

[Naturist Mark]

Here is a similar one:

Heaven is Hotter than Hell
It is possible to make an accurate computation of the temperature of Heaven using a physical law called Stephens Law? This follows from data available in the bible. Isiah 30:28 reads:

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days."
Thus heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as we do from the sun and in addition seven times seven (ie: 49 times) as much as earth does from the sun. This gives 50 times in all !

This radiation falling on heaven heats it to the point where the heat loss by re-radiation just equals the heat received by radiation. So from Stephens 4'th power law we have
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/fun/heaven/heaven1.gif
Taking T (the absolute temperature of earth) as 300K, we obtain a temperature of 798K, or about 525 Celcius.

It is tempting to compare this unexpectedly warm temperature with that of Hell. Although we cannot be exact about the temperature of hell, we can conclude an upper limit. Revelations 21:8 reads :

" But the fearful and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
The boiling point of brimstone (sulphur) is 444.6 degrees C, which means that the temperature of such an eternal lake must be less than 444.6 degrees C (otherwise if would evaporate).

Therefore, as 444.6 is much less than 525.0, we are forced to conclude, by Physical and Biblical data, that:

Heaven is hotter than Hell!

-Mark

[Outlaw]

Nice post, Naturist Mark. However, doesn't this show someone has way too much spare time? LOL

Mike (Big Mac)

[Rex]

I see it as an example of being able to use scientific knowledge to counter some of the ancient writings, which cannot seriously be taken literally, by people who would claim to be well informed.

BTW, I am not an atheist. I have deep spiritual beliefs, and my life experiences include things which help to support my beliefs. [But not what I choose to use in an attempt to convince others of anything.]

In regard to the likely beliefs of those who support nudism, the following figures are taken from a professional survey taken in Australia, in 1978:

For, or Against, proclaimed free beaches.

Agnostic/Atheist/Nil: For 86.1% Against 7.6%

Anglican: For 70.1% Against 23.8%

Uniting Church: For 69.9% Against 22.7%

Roman Catholic: For 61% Against 29.2%

Minor Protestant: For 49% Against 44.9%

There are also some other very clear progressions, but the above will do, at least for the time being, in regard to this thread.

From the Religious Freedom Coalition website. (http://www.rfcnet.org/news/default.asp?action=detail&article=146&category=17)

Meanwhile, nudist camps for teenagers are the latest rage in the United States. Camp White Tail in Ivor, Virginia is a summer camp for nudist teens age 11 to 18. Yes. You read that right ... 11-year-olds to 18-year olds. Parents are approving and paying for the children as young as pre-teen to go a nudist camp called "White Tail." The counselors in that camp are age 19 to 25.

This is the first nudist camp in Virginia for kids, but not the first in the nation. There are camps already established in Florida and Arizona but they did not get any publicity until the conservative Washington Times ran a story on the Virginia camp.

Virginia Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore said he is looking into the camp; however, as long as it is located on private property and there is no "lewd" behavior there is nothing he can do. Excuse me, but isn?t running around naked just a little on the lewd side for teenagers?

The very existence of nudist camps for pre-teens and teenagers that are "lawful" makes clear where the morals of the nation are going.

[namedun]

Wow, I read a bit of that site. It's scarey.

[hm0504]

Interesting numbers Rex.

It would be interesting that instead of "Minor Protestant", there was some division into various groups such as "Pentecostal", "Alliance", and others that one would think are more strongly anti-nudism. ("Minor Protestant" can include both liberal and conservative Christian groups.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by namedun:
Wow, I read a bit of that site. It's scarey. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What is scarey is that it isn't the only one. There are many religious right organizations that are out to eradicate nudism including the Christian Coalition and the Amereican Family Association.

All I did was do a Google search using religious right and nudist and got many hits referring to the RRR going after nudists. It gave 348 sites and most discussed the RRR trying to put an end to us.

I tried the same search with nudist and atheist and found no hits where atheists were attacking nudists in a similar manner.

[namedun]

Hmmm, not so sure what your getting at. I mean, yeah maybe athiests don't hate nudism as much, based purely on a religious morals basis. But you have to remember that athiests have less of a reason to form any sort of organizations, the motives of which may include anti-nudism sentiment.
Plus that site is scarey for other reasons.

Namedun /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Trailscout]

William J. Murray is the Christian son of famous atheist activist Madeline Murray O'Hair.

His upbringing was unbalanced, even abusive. It had nothing to do with her atheism, she was just a sick individual and I'm afraid that William, even though he is a Christian has not entirely escaped the weirdness of his upbringing. He is a sensationalist, opinionated, possessed of boundless energy but no clear direction, just like his mother.

Thankfully his post about the children's summer camp in Virginia is 9 months old, but we would do well to watch out for him. He takes perverse delight in stirring up trouble and is quite good at it.

[Jochanaan]

Just checked that RFC web site. It's strange how they assume that children at White Tail are being lewd or doing orgies without checking the facts.

And it's very sad that they spend so much time condemning sin but don't say a word about helping the poor, oppressed, and enslaved (yes, there's still slavery in the world and even in the US). The same Jesus who said, "Go and sin no more," said first, "Neither do I condemn thee."

All right, I'm off my soapbox now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif