Katrina devestation

[Bob S.]

I closed the previous topic because it got off-topic political. Zen, watch out on this topic. It is to talk about the victims and other topics related to hurricane or other of mother nature's damage.

It looks like New Orleans did actually get hit hard. Last I heard 80% of the city was underwater and the whole city is going to have to be evacuated. That is unprecendented.

Just watching the news was shocking. Damage as far as the eye or camera lens could see. Whole coastal towns gone. A death toll that is incalcuable for right now. There are too many places that are inaccessable where victims are. And those that have survived in those places have nothing to eat or drink, nor do they probably have any shelter.

Katrina was the big one. The one that was most feared.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

I closed the previous topic because it got off-topic political. Zen, watch out on this topic. It is to talk about the victims and other topics related to hurricane or other of mother nature's damage.

It looks like New Orleans did actually get hit hard. Last I heard 80% of the city was underwater and the whole city is going to have to be evacuated. That is unprecendented.

Just watching the news was shocking. Damage as far as the eye or camera lens could see. Whole coastal towns gone. A death toll that is incalcuable for right now. There are too many places that are inaccessable where victims are. And those that have survived in those places have nothing to eat or drink, nor do they probably have any shelter.

Katrina was the big one. The one that was most feared.

Bob S.

[Captain Zen]

Katrine was a sister of category 4 LUIS, the one that flattened and flooded my island 10 years ago almost to the day. We called it the mother of all hurricanes.
My heartfelt condolances for all the victims, and I wish them courage and strength. It is terrible to work like mad all day to help and cannot shower other than with a bottle of water. here too I saw the total devastion, the looting, the curfew, no pipewater, 3 month without electricity, I feel for all affected and I wish them all the strenght and courage to overcome.

[nudeM]

I watched, in awe, as I saw the devistation that the hurricane caused. It's hard to even fathom the large area that has been affected. My hopes and prayers are with the many thousands who are homeless at this time. I wish them a speedy recovery, in hopes they may find a new home, or even a place to stay, in the very near future. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[jennifer_wc]

It's awful, there were reports of looters shooting at police officers, one tourist even described downtown New Orleans as downtown Baghdad.

I think people in the disaster area are having way too many issues to deal with, when stress and depression turn into desperation, it's scary.

[Captain Zen]

What is one good thing in spite of all the misery and horror and hopelessness is the feeling to be alive! One day after the shock the feeling to be spared is the greatest power that makes you go on.

[Ren]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">one tourist even described downtown New Orleans as downtown Baghdad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That must be one dumb tourist.

[NudeTopher]

This morning I saw the best example of stupidity. While showing the damage and destruction on NBC, they interviewed a woman from Gulfport. It seems her beachfront house has been destroyed a few times previously from storms in the Gulf. Each time she has rebuilt.

Does this woman, and others like her, not learn? How many times does it take for somebody to have their house destroyed by storms to realize that some places are just not suitable for habitation?

Never fight with Mother Nature!

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jennifer_wc:
It's awful, there were reports of looters shooting at police officers, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this morning's Today Show (NBC) they had their cameras in a Wal-Mart as it was being looted. Two of the Big Easy's finest police officers were in there filling up a shopping cart with looted goods for themselves. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

New Orleans may not have electric for weeks but people were looting tv's. Now that's faith in rebuilding.

[Gecko]

It looks like Gulfport and Biloxi MS both got hit very hard. There are lots of videos and photos on the WLOX site: http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=3782622

It saddens me to see this stuff. Several miles along the coast and up to a half mine inland suffered *complete* distruction. They have no idea about how many died in this area.

New Orleans looks like a train wreck happening in slow motion right in front of us.

Truly sad. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[nudenwv]

yes, mother nature has it's fury at times. checked on a few friends and they are fine. glad they were spared the damage. was in new orleans in the seventies during mardi gras. don't think it will be the same. beautiful place.

[Captain Zen]

Human nature adapts very fast to its new situation, its reselience is amazing, although up to today there are scars visible and emotionally from 10 years ago when LUIS hit my island. Over 400 people died on a population of only 60,000, refrigerated shipping containers were used as morgues, hours after it happened owners of the biggest supermarkets allowed the poor to take away all food, it would perish anyway without power. For two years people were living in containers converted into living quarters. The sound of noisy generated throughout the night and day for months. Army personel flown in with tarpaulins helping covering houses without roofs, citizens drunk in the streets, lost without homes or family, nowhere to go... Now I had almost forgotten untill Katrine reminds me, but I say that in 10 years from now this too will be almost forgotten.

[shomymojo]

American Red Cross 1-800-HELP NOW http://www.redcross.org

[johny]

We all are in the mind with You. Keep resistant! All fllods once ends. Our TV says that about 85 people are killed there but this number is still growing.

What is really sad is that the level of destruction seen in New Orleans could have been much less but funds to upgrade the levees and building pumping stations were diverted to Bush's needless war in Iraq.
********************

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.
<span class="ev_code_red">
Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. (Much of the research here is from Nexis, which is why some articles aren't linked.) </span>

More at
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html

[pek1]

It is sad to see the destruction. However, I'm sure that those who have said, "There is no God" may become believers now.

While I was watching the news last night, I couldn't help but to think about the time that 9/11 on the east coast occurred. Now this (8/30) on the south coast. Two areas are left, the west and the upper midwest (my region). The past earthquakes don't count (in CA), as they have not been large enough to shut down entire cities, as Katrina has to New Orleans and others.

Incidentally, I've driven that interstate out of "NO" a few years ago and noticed (at night) that I was on a bridge. I never liked traveling somewhere I've never been at night, especially over a bridge, as I didn't know what I was crossing. Now I know. They now look like dominos. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I honestly can't imagine how many people are totally ruined financially now and no home to go to anywhere. I just hope and pray that they can find a church and turn to God. I know that I've been through a devastating circumstance myself (bankruptcy), as well as other issues, it is only natural to turn to God. I hope that they do. As a Christian, it actually does hurt to see other Christians hurting like this. We also know, as believers, that things like this will occur in life and are told to turn to God as our Comforter. Those who don't know God on a first name basis or just a swear word, wouldn't know or understand a relationship with Him. It's never too late to turn to Him. Perhaps this is what kind of devastation this country, the USA, needs, unfortunately.

I can't say, nor will I say, that I or any other Christian has all the answers. But, I can show you the One who does. Many times, there are no answers and we have to make do with what we've got.

A word of caution, though: Do not contribute any money or time to any other charity or religious organization that is not a recognized one to aid in this terrible, terrible time.

New Orleans and surrounding areas...you ppl will continue to be in my thoughts and prayers. Look to God...this is your best bet.

In Christian Love,


Pete

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is sad to see the destruction. However, I'm sure that those who have said, "There is no God" may become believers now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And I bet a few that did believe know it's a crock now.

What's your point and is it really relevant to this?

I don't see God setting up food kitchens.

[Sanslines]

Let's all put our differences of opinion aside and make an effort to help our fellow citizens in the gulf region. A great place to start is contributing to the American Red Cross. If we don't help and support each other in this terrible time of need then who will? Helping each other is what makes this country a great place to live!

I agree with you, it's not about religion and him posting his DOGMA on here really isn't necessary. It just divides people.

[hm0504]

Discussing religion and its relationship to "natural" disasters is fine, but not on this topic. pek1, please start another topic if you wish to pursue that controversial subject.

[Sanslines]

Yes. let's put our philosophies aside and do something to help our country and fellow citizens first. They need our help now and not our philosophies. If we don't help our fellow American citizens, then who in this huge world will??

[True Brit]

We on this side of the Atlantic are shocked and saddened by the death and destruction Katrina has caused.

Our prayers and thoughts go out to your fellow countrymen at a time of great need.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pek1:
It is sad to see the destruction. However, I'm sure that those who have said, "There is no God" may become believers now.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An interesting reason to be pious. Reminds me of the Athenian general Nicias who is said to have believed in the gods because they hated him so much. His pious hestitation during the Sicilian expedition as described by Thucydides is thought to have helped bring down the Athenian empire.


Natural phenoman and piety have always raised interesting questions first formulated as this:

"If Zeus exists then why does he strike his own temple with a thunderbolt?"

The questions of 2500 years ago are the same questions we ask now in light of Katrina.

[KirkOntario]

In 1973 a Canadian broadcaster, Gordon Sinclair, became famous in the wake of another flood of the Mississipi delta during another unpopular war. His words apply today especially in light of some of the distasteful things German cabinet ministers have said in response to Katrina:


"The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French, and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971, and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous, and possibly the least-appreciated, people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Well who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did, that's who.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges, and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Mississippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan, and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. And I was there -- I saw that. When distant cities are hit by earthquake, it is the United States that hurries into help, Managua, Nicaragua, is one of the most recent examples.

So far this spring, fifty-nine American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan, the Truman Policy, all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. And now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war-mongering Americans.

Now, I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on now, you, let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or a women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times, and, safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They're right here on our streets in Toronto. Most of them, unless they're breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend up here.

When the Americans get out of this bind -- as they will -- who could blame them if they said "the hell with the rest of the world." Let somebody else buy the Israel bonds. Let somebody else build or repair foreign dams, or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes." When the railways of France, and Germany, and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both of 'em are still broke.

I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name to me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They'll come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they're entitled to thumb their noses at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians.

And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters -- with the year less than half-over -- has taken it all. And nobody, but nobody, has helped."



http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gordonsinclair.htm

[Captain Zen]

I would rather think America should say: "We always helped all the world, and we will proudly help ourself this time, we don't need any help, thank you all!" And get on with it. This rethoric about how good you be to others sounds a bit strange, as if suddenly you can not help yourself? Stop that empty talk. 5.6 billion every month to pay for an illegal unwinnable war that has driven the oil prices skyhigh, and now complaining that you see no help from the world which you self find so often in need......................... Leave it alone but give what you can if you have it.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
What is really sad is that the level of destruction seen in New Orleans could have been much less but funds to upgrade the levees and building pumping stations were diverted to Bush's needless war in Iraq.
********************

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.
<span class="ev_code_red">
Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. (Much of the research here is from Nexis, which is why some articles aren't linked.) </span>

More at
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an epic, ironic tragedy.

Bush convinces Americans that they must invade Iraq by falsely saying Iraq could cause massive destruction to the American homeland. But by invading Iraq, his actions (preventing flood protection) result in massive destruction to the American homeland.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:

Bush convinces Americans that they must invade Iraq by falsely saying Iraq could cause massive destruction to the American homeland. But by invading Iraq, his actions (preventing flood protection) result in massive destruction to the American homeland. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem with that argument is that New Orleans was hit almost directly by a Category 4 hurricane. Every emergency planner forsaw a doomsday-like scenario for New Orleans a city between and BELOW a lake, a river and the ocean.

Shameful when partisans try to exploit this tragedy for political gain. It's really just desperation at having lost power for so long.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pek1:
It is sad to see the destruction. However, I'm sure that those who have said, "There is no God" may become believers now.


Pete </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------------------------------------
And it is just as likely that those who in the past were believers are now doubters. After all, where was their loving, all powerful, alway forgiving God when it came time to protect them from the ravages of nature?

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyndiannaked:
I agree with you, it's not about religion and him posting his DOGMA on here really isn't necessary. It just divides people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Would it be appropriate to say "Amen" to Cyndiann's request to leave preaching off this board?

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
What an epic, ironic tragedy.

Bush convinces Americans that they must invade Iraq by falsely saying Iraq could cause massive destruction to the American homeland. But by invading Iraq, his actions (preventing flood protection) result in massive destruction to the American homeland. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of us have been asking about our level of protection since so many of the National Guard troops have been sent to Iraq. Here in Vermont we have such a large percentage of National Guard troops overseas the state is at risk in the even of a forest fire or any other natural disaster. Those in Louisiana and Mississippi are suffering from a lack of manpower from their own states' national guards due to overseas deployments.

Bush may not have started the storm; but his decimation of FEMA and the National Guard is certainly responsible for the suffering and deaths of Americans here on our own shores.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KirkOntario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:

Bush convinces Americans that they must invade Iraq by falsely saying Iraq could cause massive destruction to the American homeland. But by invading Iraq, his actions (preventing flood protection) result in massive destruction to the American homeland. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem with that argument is that New Orleans was hit almost directly by a Category 4 hurricane. Every emergency planner forsaw a doomsday-like scenario for New Orleans a city between and BELOW a lake, a river and the ocean.

Shameful when partisans try to exploit this tragedy for political gain. It's really just desperation at having lost power for so long. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it's more shameful when you shill for the president. For quite some time the Army Corp of Engineers have been quite vocal that they had to put off their projects to protect this area due to their budget being slashed to finance the Iraqi war.

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):Those in Louisiana and Mississippi are suffering from a lack of manpower from their own states' national guards due to overseas deployments.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm but that just isn't true is it?

""None of the states impacted are stretched thin at all," said Jack Harrison, a National Guard Bureau spokesman told Reuters."

[KirkOntario]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
And it's more shameful when you shill for the president. For quite some time the Army Corp of Engineers have been quite vocal that they had to put off their projects to protect this area due to their budget being slashed to finance the Iraqi war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shameful indeed to suggest the President is responsible for something that is catastrophic and caused by nature. Those projects would not have stopped a Category 4 hurricane almost hitting New Orleans directly.

Our environmentalist friends of course would tear down those barriers and depopulate the whole area. Sort of like the Left's plan for Israel or Iraq. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

We wont' see these folks rebuilding New Orleans. They hate civilization. We will see capitalism and good old American ingenuity at it's best.

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Unwired]

Wow, congratulations people...you can't even let a single thread about this tragedy proceed without turning it into yet another political pissing contest.

This thread is now closed. I suggest some of you grow up.