What is the law?

[nudecollar]

I notice in another topic, "shared nudity", the difference between different state laws on nudity. I have heard, for example, that it is legal for a woman to be topless in NY State, although I have never observed this on any NY State beach, other than our clothing optional beach at Fire Island. I wonder if anyone ever chalenged these differences as a free speech issue, especially in states where nudity is not tollerated. In NY State, for example, if it is true about female toplessness, on what grounds was that approved? I would be curious to hear from anyone with a legal background on this issue.

[nudecollar]

I notice in another topic, "shared nudity", the difference between different state laws on nudity. I have heard, for example, that it is legal for a woman to be topless in NY State, although I have never observed this on any NY State beach, other than our clothing optional beach at Fire Island. I wonder if anyone ever chalenged these differences as a free speech issue, especially in states where nudity is not tollerated. In NY State, for example, if it is true about female toplessness, on what grounds was that approved? I would be curious to hear from anyone with a legal background on this issue.

[missouriboy]

I have no legal background, but I believe the NY law is a result of the Equal Rights laws of the state. The challenge resulted in a ruling that women have the "equal right" to be topfree anyplace it's legal for a man to be topfree.

As far as "freedom of speech" goes, numerous rulings have approved the use of nudity in protest demonstrations. This was recently affirmed in protests against the war in Iraq, and was discussed extensively on this forum. One of them was in Florida.

[Naturist Mark]

The New York case was indeed based primarily on the equal protection argument. You can find detailed excerpts from the decision here. (http://www.tera.ca/legal.html#Rochester)

In Ohio the court decided on an entirely different basis. Ohio's public indecency law prohibits the exposure of 'private parts' - the court simply ruled that under accepted medical terminology private parts are genitals. Breasts are not private parts. You can read the decision here. (http://www.geocities.com/tbn_ohio/top1.html)

-Mark

[Kenny G]

From what I've read in several news articles is that even in states where no specific law pertains to simple nudity, the authorities will use the general "Breach of Peace" clause simply stating that if you are naked and someone (anyone) is offended, then your nudity is thus illegal. I find it odd that this same reasoning doesn't apply if I'm offended by someone doing an act (like smoking or drinking) that also has no specific law against. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Jochanaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kenny G:
I find it odd that this same reasoning doesn't apply if I'm offended by someone doing an act (like smoking or drinking) that also has no specific law against. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For a long time nobody thought smoking or drinking was really wrong. And we still remember the fiasco of the Eighteenth Amendment re Prohibition. Unfortunately society has been down on nudity for a lot longer. But, of course, just because something has been done for a thousand years doesn't make it right.

[AussieBeachBoy]

The thing about the law is - a lot of people think the law is something that is written down and is clear. Problem is, it's not. There's usually a lot of latitude for interpretation of any law, and factors that are brought into that interpretation include community standards (as perceived by the judge), and also the judge's own personal views and prejudices, although they generally won't admit it.

It sometimes happens that two states could have a law in identical words on their statute books, but that the courts in those different states interpreted them in different ways.

[bendigonudey]

As Aussie Beach Boy would probably know, we also have the ludicrous situation in Queensland, Australia (which has no legal clothing optional beaches, where males are arrested for nudity, since their "person" ( the euphimism used for genitals under the 1930 Vagrancy Act under which most prosecutions are made )is visible. Females, in general, are not troubled by the police if naked on such beaches, presumably so long as they behave in a "lady - like" manner, and keep their knees together!

Cheers,

Rob

[WNYjoe17]

Topfreedom: Lets bring the subject back up here.
An arrest was made in NY yesterday citing 245.01 of the Penal code. Indescent Exposure of a person.
I don't want answers from wannabees.
Lawyers: DOES the 1992 decision of Santorelli...REALLY hold any validity?
Why does it not exist in the books redefined?
Do court order SUPERCEDE previous crimial laws?
IS it legal to be topfree in NY?
How can an arrest happen if it is legal?
What needs to be done to make the system not have this happen again?
What do political action groups REALLY do?

Thanks

[EricNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WNYjoe17:
Topfreedom: Lets bring the subject back up here.
An arrest was made in NY yesterday citing 245.01 of the Penal code. Indescent Exposure of a person.
I don't want answers from wannabees.
Lawyers: DOES the 1992 decision of Santorelli...REALLY hold any validity?
Why does it not exist in the books redefined?
Do court order SUPERCEDE previous crimial laws?
IS it legal to be topfree in NY?
How can an arrest happen if it is legal?
What needs to be done to make the system not have this happen again?
What do political action groups REALLY do?

Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


What are the details of this issue??

I think this is what he's talking about.

Topless visitors surprise Moravia (http://www.mynudelife.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=320818bed2070f7d4214edb006274607;a ct=ST;f=6;t=162;st=0;&#entry1)

[WNYjoe17]

That is exactly what I am referring to

[MJ_KC]

These policemen need to be placed on leave without pay for making illegal arrests.

[Trailscout]

Perhaps a local ordinance was violated, NY state law notwithstanding.

[WNYjoe17]

The only charge was a STATE penal code 245.01
No resisting arrest. No local ordinances. ONLY the women.
WHY does Santorelli not hold up to police officers?
The court ruling overturning it (in part) is 80 N.Y.2d 875
http://home.att.net/~saran/sant_op.htm
is the link for the full text.

Or better yet?
What does this end up meaning for these women? Is it really a violation/equivalent to a speeding ticket?

[NudeAl]

I reccomend going to the TERA web sight and posting some of your questions there. They are very active and aggressive in promoting top freedom for women. I will try and post a link here.I hope this works for you.

http://www.tera.ca/#New

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WHY does Santorelli not hold up to police officers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Because they don't know very basic state law.

[WNYjoe17]

More than going to the TERA website, I already personally spoke with Paul Rapoport, head of TERA. My wife is one of the arrest victims. I witnessed the whole thing. It took them literally 35 minutes to decide to put the cuffs on. We arrived at 1:05 PM, they detained us until 1:40 PM when the arrest was made. An Arraignment, jail processing and bail all followed. We left the county jail at 7:45 PM!!
As far as "They don't understand basic law" The most recent they can claim is 245.01. Santorelli is a court desicion which supercedes it, but has apparently not made its way to the books in 13 yeras. How and why is that?

Because you are looking at the wrong part of the penal code. This law was superceeded by the US and NY constitutions, in particular that it violates the equal protection laws.

[WNYjoe17]

I'll remember that as I drive my wife to her court hearing on Tuesday.

Anyone ELSE?

[nudetone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudecollar:
I have heard, for example, that it is legal for a woman to be topless in NY State, although I have never observed this on any NY State beach, other than our clothing optional beach at Fire Island. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I used to visit Robert Moses Beach in the late '80s-early '90s I saw a handful of women topless. But, like you said, most go to Lighthouse Beach.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WNYjoe17:
I'll remember that as I drive my wife to her court hearing on Tuesday.

Anyone ELSE? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I was told:
"From what I understand this was not a planned topfree demonstration and it happened despite counsel otherwise."

So I'm assuming you all knew this could happen. What was your original plan of action?

[WNYjoe17]

WE were informed that it is legal anytime/anywhere when equally so for men. Are you saying that it is only legal for Protest? Can a lawyer here confirm this??

From previous posts of mine:

Do court orders SUPERCEDE previous criminal laws?
IS it legal to be topfree in NY? (under any circumstances, or only for protest?)
How can an arrest happen if it is legal?



As far as what you were informed, that is incorrect. I would be curious how you obtained that incorrect information from 1000 miles away. Contact me off list if you wish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WNYjoe17:
WE were informed that it is legal anytime/anywhere when equally so for men. Are you saying that it is only legal for Protest? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope, I didn't say that. As far as I know, in New York it's legal although there may be local laws that contradict that. Since she was charged using a state law there must not be anything locally that would contradict that in this case and in this area.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Can a lawyer here confirm this??

From previous posts of mine:

Do court orders SUPERCEDE previous criminal laws? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not a lawyer but I do keep track of laws on nudity as a hobby and I have the court case right in front of me.

Yes, this court case supercedes the original law.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

IS it legal to be topfree in NY? (under any circumstances, or only for protest?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is legal. However if the police deem the event as possibly being disruptive to the public they may cite or arrest under that kind of ordinance. Since they didn't, and they did use the state indecent exposure law, you can beat this in court.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

How can an arrest happen if it is legal?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Happens all the time. Look at all the cases where people were accused of possession of child porn just because they took innocent pics of the kids in the bathtub.

The police need to learn that they arrested when they shouldn't have. This is probably the reason why they took so long to arrest to begin with. They didn't know what the law was. They are leaving it for the judge to sort out, which is a stupid way of doing it, but that's real life.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

As far as what you were informed, that is incorrect. I would be curious how you obtained that incorrect information from 1000 miles away. Contact me off list if you wish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is being discussed on a naturist group called the Naturist List, run by Dennis Kirkpatrick. You can check it out here. (http://www.sunclad.com/naturistlist/)

It was originally a Yahoo group but like me, Dennis got fed up with Yahoo's games and moved everything to his own site.

[NudeAl]

Very interested in this topic let us know how things go.

I believe the local cops are ignorant of the state courts ruling on the matter. I think I saw on TERA's web site how only a few of the precincts randomly called had heard of this ruling. I bet a good lawyer will have this case tossed out in no time. Still it dosen't excuse the ignorance of the cops on this matter though. Nor does it mitigate any of the pain and humiliation that your wife and the other women had to go through.

[james423]

Yes, it is legal for a woman to be topfree anywhere a man may be topfree. Many arrests have taken place without sufficient legal grounds. If the only law cited is one that has been superceded by case law, then the arresting officer in this case did so without sufficient legal grounds. Police officers in a small town do what they are advised to do, and rarely are proficient in case law.