Drawing the younger Crowd to nude venues

[EricNY]

This is some conversation that was disected from another thread, that should stand alone

[Walt Iliff]

Sanslines,

I don't know what the actual answer to this question is. I do know that at my home club, WTR, we regularly have a good mix of families with children, teens, singles of all ages and genders, and of course, we older folks. Why does White Tail attract younger people when other clubs have problems gathering the same groups of people. What does White Tail do differently? I don't know the absolute answer, but it might be a topic for discussion in another forum.

Walt Iliff

[Sanslines]

I understand what you're saying, but why should White Tail be apparently immune from this, where other parks are experiencing what you've described at your club. We are drawing from the same "pool" so to speak, but we seem to have avoided many of the problems you describe. Luck? Evolution? Intelligent Design?? I don't know, but we just had a terrific weekend the beginning of the month with over 1,000 nudists on the grounds with an age range from infants to octogenarians.

Perhaps you are drawing members and visitors from D.C., Baltimore, and other major metro areas where there are greater concentrations of potential younger members.

I have witnessed the 'graying' of the clubs up here. There are many members who have been members for many years and they getting up there in years. I don't think that we have the base of younger members to join in. I have attempted to recruit college students but most claim that they do not have the time or interest in nudism. They are primarily and fully focused on their studies and will not deviate from that. I have found that the daily gate fee is not the real deterent and even if the fee is reduced to $5 (or free), the students still will not come. There are many things that we can and should compare notes concerning attracting and retaining younger members and we should have this discussion.

[Agde]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Perhaps you are drawing members and visitors from D.C., Baltimore, and other major metro areas where there are greater concentrations of potential younger members.
White Tail is a 3-hour drive from DC and 4-hours from Baltimore, so the draw has to be something else. I suspect it is largely a result of having a reputation as a beautiful, open, friendly, truly full-service, year-round resort with always lots of people and lots of activities for all ages. Behavior rules are clear but any day visitors are welcome. So you can just plan and go knowing there will be lots of people and no hassles. That reputation has been systematically built over many years. DC-Baltimore college students however need something closer and it is also not obvious how any resort can serve them except by supporting on-campus events linked to other ongoing activities.

[Walt Iliff]

Originally posted by Agde:
White Tail is a 3-hour drive from DC and 4-hours from Baltimore, so the draw has to be something else. I suspect it is largely a result of having a reputation as a beautiful, open, friendly, truly full-service, year-round resort with always lots of people and lots of activities for all ages. Behavior rules are clear but any day visitors are welcome. So you can just plan and go knowing there will be lots of people and no hassles. That reputation has been systematically built over many years. DC-Baltimore college students however need something closer and it is also not obvious how any resort can serve them except by supporting on-campus events linked to other ongoing activities.

This should probably be discussed under another topic heading, so if the ADMIN(s) want to figure out where this goes, please do so. Pine Tree Associates and/or Maheso draws from the Baltimore Metro Area, and to a certain extent, Avalon draws from the DC metro area. WTR is between Richmond and Norfolk/Va Beach and draws a lot from those areas, however there are members up and down the east coast for whom White Tail is their home club for several reasons. Firstly, many of our members appreciate that White Tail is not clothing optional. When Bob Roche surveyed the membership a couple of years ago asking whether they would prefer a clothing optional club or a mandatory nudist environment, 97% of the responding members indicated that they wanted White Tail to be strictly nudist and they wanted the rule enforced. Exceptions were made for first time visitors on a tour, scheduled open houses, and sensible weather/health issues. Also, if you go to their web site and look at the scheduled activities, you'd find that every weekend, both Friday and Saturday has some sort of scheduled activities, 52 weeks/year except for those three day weekends, when there is something scheduled for Sunday also. White Tail is extremely singles friendly and admits anyone not on a "do not admit" list. Their personal behavior is the sole criteria for future visits. I don't know to what extent this differs from other nudist parks, but it seems to be working successfully for White Tail.

Walt

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by Walt Iliff:
Sanslines,

I don't know what the actual answer to this question is. I do know that at my home club, WTR, we regularly have a good mix of families with children, teens, singles of all ages and genders, and of course, we older folks. Why does White Tail attract younger people when other clubs have problems gathering the same groups of people. What does White Tail do differently? I don't know the absolute answer, but it might be a topic for discussion in another forum.

Walt Iliff

Walt,

I am very concerned about the scarcity of younger people in organized social nudism today. There are many reasons for this. Some of these reasons can be addressed by AANR and others can not as they have more to do with society then with anything that AANR can address or overcome.
Needless to say, at this point in time and history, organized nudism does not appeal to younger nudists the way that it did back in the not so old days.

[Walt Iliff]

Originally posted by Sanslines:

I am very concerned about the scarcity of younger people in organized social nudism today. There are many reasons for this. Some of these reasons can be addressed by AANR and others can not as they have more to do with society then with anything that AANR can address or overcome.
Needless to say, at this point in time and history, organized nudism does not appeal to younger nudists the way that it did back in the not so old days.

I understand what you're saying, but why should White Tail be apparently immune from this, where other parks are experiencing what you've described at your club. We are drawing from the same "pool" so to speak, but we seem to have avoided many of the problems you describe. Luck? Evolution? Intelligent Design?? I don't know, but we just had a terrific weekend the beginning of the month with over 1,000 nudists on the grounds with an age range from infants to octogenarians.

Walt

[Sanslines]

If someone believes that the way to attract younger people to nudism is to make it more sexual, then they have identified themselves as nudist fantasy junkies with no real clue about how the real world works.

Walt,

I agree with you and anyone who regularly attends an AANR resort or club will understand this. I am not saying that sexual activity never occurs at a nudist park. I am however saying (as you also are) that this kind of activity is not encouraged or promoted by any legitimate nudist park.

The issue about attracting younger people to nudism was discussed yesterday at my nudist park. To make a long story short, we had a very hard time finding enough people to play volleyball yesterday. Most people at the club are in extremely poor physical health and are physically unable to play volleyball or engage in any kind of physical activity. Some can barely walk. This is very sad and is definitely a MAJOR turnoff to younger members. Younger members want to engage in activities and do not want to be surrounded by an exclusive group of grandpas and grandmas, of which they have nothing in common. They have nothing specifically against grandma and grandpa. They only want to be involved in activities with others in their peer group and the lack of such a peer group has a major definite effect of limiting the number of younger potential members.

Many factors have come to fruition to vastly limit the numbers of younger members who may be interested in nudism. Times have changed and most young people are primarily interested in work and career. They have very little time left over for any leisure activity and nudism is such an activity. The majority of people that I see at the nudist park became interested in nudism back in the '50's, 60's, and '70's. Those days are long over and times have radically changed since them. Younger people will not join nudism for idealistic reasons. Today they ask "what's in it for me"?

[Walt Iliff]

Originally posted by ercNY:
This is some conversation that was disected from another thread, that should stand alone

Thanks Eric, I appreciate it.

Walt

[garbo]

I have a close friend with a daughter attending the University of Central Florida in Orlando. They have encouraged the daughter to visit our club with her friends but each time with a resounding no. There were two main reasons given. The first is a severe lack of fun and entertaining things to do and the second was that she was not happy participating nude with other guests all their parents age. It is my understanding that there is minimal programming and financial incentives for the young people, but not nearly enough to whet their appetites. Also, as an entertainment mecca, the Orlando area offers an abundance of other venues that the nudist resorts have to compete with making the draw even more difficult. Recent studies at the university has seen significant interest in nudism as a healthy, non-sexual activity, but the message has (I assume) obviously not manifested itself with actual participation. Perhaps this will change as the younger crowd gets a little older.

[TigerTeam]

Originally posted by Walt Iliff:

I understand what you're saying, but why should White Tail be apparently immune from this, where other parks are experiencing what you've described at your club. We are drawing from the same "pool" so to speak, but we seem to have avoided many of the problems you describe. Luck? Evolution? Intelligent Design?? I don't know, but we just had a terrific weekend the beginning of the month with over 1,000 nudists on the grounds with an age range from infants to octogenarians.

Walt

A fairly unpopular view is that clubs flounder because they fail to hold the rules. Although I have not been to WTP, I hear it is good. And it could be that it takes a tremendous amount of effort to get the result that they do, but the tip of the iceberg couldnot exist without 95% of the work being done behind the scenes. This 'work' is the moral, religious, and family oriented culture that just does not happen by accident. Nowadays a club thows a swingset on the grounds then calls themselves "family oriented", all the while they continue with their adult ways.

Families are where the young people are. And I can tell you for certain, that parents with children are far more sensitive to social trends than are retired men. What's more, children are more sensitive to social trends than their parents. So every club board member had better sit up and listen 'cause the old ways don't work any more. It may take a lot of cleaning up to get the families to return.

Earlier this summer I visited a club that was about 50 years old. They had photo albums from years past in their clubhouse. One album had pics from the 70's with happy families. Another from the early 90's had one with pics of just adults. Know what the latter were doing? A lingerie show or something like that. There has been a decay going on and we are now reaping the fruits of it.
But really this only really affects the families, because the older folks at clubs nowadays may not care that the population is aging, and that is precisely why their clubs don't work to attract families. Everyone in the movement has become comfortably numb.

[Croydon]

I am 25 y/o and have been a nudist since I was 17.

A lot of great points have been made, especially by Sanslines.

Sanslines, you are right, young members want to engage in activities. I have been to 4 resorts/parks to date and in each case, it was the same thing: lack of young adults and lack of physical activities. One of my downside of nudism is that many at resorts and campgrounds are content with just lazing around. Lounging by pool all day, eating/drinking, and laying on the lounge chair. I and many young people find that completely boring. Although, resorts offer amenities for physical activities, I find that very few use it. In fact, on my last trip to a resort, my friend and I wanted to play a game of B-ball. All we needed was 2 or 4 people to make a team of 2 or 3. We scoped the grounds looking for anyone interested. Majority of the visitors were either too old or not in shape at all. The few we asked were not interested.

As I look back at my visits to resorts, I enjoyed the experience of being nude for days, but I have to say that I didn't do much nor did I have a GREAT time; I had a good time but it could have been GREAT if certain things and people were available.

There are things resorts can do to grab attention of young adults. In addition, there are many factors beyond their control. For starters, I think a lot of resorts need renovation of some sort.

I have not been to WTP but by looking at the site, it seems the resort is bit dated. Even looking at the picture of the fitness center, I see machines that are very old and not updated. For a young nudist, esp. me, I don't find that appealing. If a resort wants young people, you have to have what they want. A resort wants these people to come in and say, "wow, this place is really cool." That is it, wow us. Wowing us does not mean spending millions on renovation and new amenities. Wowing us is showing that like a business, you are changing with the time by upgrading your services and amenities. Let's face it, nudism isn't a cheap activity. If we are going to pay $60, $70/night or day, we want to know our money is getting us a great experience.

Every year, I visit a resort but this year, I did not as my friend and I couldn't find one that has what we are looking for. What are we looking for? Physical activities, somewhat a young crowd, and reasonable rates. Believe it or not, a website says A LOT about the resort and a lot of these resorts' website shows that they are outdated and that a young person may not find what he/she is looking for.

Lastly, someone mentioned that resorts hold activities weekly, I think it was WTP. Weekly activities are great but as yourself, it is relevant to a young person. A weekend swap meet, pot luck, and line dancing are not things that young people are going to participate in.

[Croydon]

I am sorry for the above long post but I thought of something else.

I have always talked about TNS/AANR joining together to form a committee to learn more about young adults and naturism. This committee, would consist of AANR/TNS members who are young adults. In addition, there would be a moderator who oversees the group.

The committee would be in charge of getting the word out about nudism to young adults. I have always found it weird that the people who are telling young people about nudism are not young themselves. Young people will take things serious when it is coming from their peers.

The committee members would go across the country where young people are i.e. beach, concerts, or college campuses. At these gatherings, they would talk to young adults about trying nudism.

You know, I have always believed that the guys at CFI would be doing the same. Til this day, I still have NO IDEA what INA/CFI does, other than their weekly news show. Almost find it to be a shame more is not being done by them to get the word out.

[Sanslines]

Croydon,

I don't think that it is too complicated to figure out what younger members what. I am constantly involved with younger members for they are the ones who are interested and physically able to participate in physical activities such as volleyball. I have listened to them and understand many of the concerns and issues as to why younger members do not join or participate in social nudism. Some of these issues can be addressed by individual clubs and other issues can not as they have more to do with society. An enormous problem that exists at the society level is something that, at times, seems almost impossible to overcome. This problem involves body image. After talking with one college aged woman after another, I find that the overwhelming majority do have moderate to severe body issues. Some don't even know to what extent that they have been influenced by society into feeling inferior. Women with body issues find it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to go to any nudist location.
Another point that you bring up concerns the lack of weightlifting equipment at nudist clubs. I have talked with many a club owner and the answers at many of the clubs are the same. Some clubs have invested in some gym equipment only to find that it sits ununsed week after week. Clubs owners generally do not have the extra money to invest in unused equipment of any kind. If there is strong enough interest, then many club owners will accomodate their members. If there is little or no interest, then club owners will invest their limited financial resources in other areas.

AANR and TNS do not always need to conduct expensive studies to determine what members of a certain age group want and need in order to become interested in nudism. All that is really needed is a gathering of younger people on college campuses or other areas where younger people congregate and a question and answer session to determine what, if anything, AANR and TNS can do to attract and retain younger members. Activities are certainly important. However, they must be the right kind of activities as I don't see to much interest in younger members playing bingo games - not that there is anything wrong with bingo.

[rascal56]

Seems most naturist activities are passive and the younger crowd likes to be more active. As Garbo has mentioned. Being in Orlando its is geared to young families and not nudists. We do have a nude beach Playalinda/Apollo and Cyrpress cove,never been myself.yet!!
But seems if there were golf,skateboarding and rollercoasters that had nude options then young folks might get more involved. My 2 cents. Although if I fell skateboarding nude it might leave a rash.lol

[Walt Iliff]

Originally posted by garbo:
I have a close friend with a daughter attending the University of Central Florida in Orlando. They have encouraged the daughter to visit our club with her friends but each time with a resounding no. There were two main reasons given. The first is a severe lack of fun and entertaining things to do and the second was that she was not happy participating nude with other guests all their parents age. It is my understanding that there is minimal programming and financial incentives for the young people, but not nearly enough to whet their appetites. Also, as an entertainment mecca, the Orlando area offers an abundance of other venues that the nudist resorts have to compete with making the draw even more difficult. Recent studies at the university has seen significant interest in nudism as a healthy, non-sexual activity, but the message has (I assume) obviously not manifested itself with actual participation. Perhaps this will change as the younger crowd gets a little older.

If you call the AANR office, and ask for Steve, he has been very active in the Youth Ambassadors program that AANR is working on. Since your friend's daughter and Steve and AANR are in the same area, they may be able to set up a seminar or get together at UCF and specifically invite the young lady as well as any of her friends who may be interested. Call him at 1-800-TRY-NUDE. You never know....

Walt Iliff

[MoonShadow]

Having been to a lot of nudist resorts over the years, I think what has occur is that there is no recruitment of people of any age period. Those who now enjoy nudist resorts have done so by word of mouth by friends, neighbors, or looking on-line to see what is available.

Activities would be available or made available if the members of the resorts were asking for them. Most of today's regular resort goers are those who were young in the 50s, 60s, 70s. The kids of the 80s and 90s are not familar with the resorts. Kids of the 50s, 60s were not asking for weight lifting equipment or gyms to be available at resorts as they were more into hiking, horseback riding, biking, softball, tennis and volleyball. Most resorts I have been to and go to have these activities. If you want something else, perhaps, a resort is not your cup of tea. When you start asking for gyms with equipment, you are asking for high dollar items that are not justified by most resorts. Besides who wants to go to a gymn at a nudist resort anyway...I mean seriously.......be outdoors doing something instead.

My thoughts conclude that a focus on recruiting young people is not being done.

[nimrod]

I wonder how much the negetive views of nudism has to so with why the younger people are not showing up at resorts. The "I like being nude but do not call me a nudist." effect.

[freedom2be]

My observation of young people at resorts is limited to what I see on TV and what I've experienced on a trip to Cancun...that being that young people seem to flock to places that have unlimited, free alcohol (spring break)and the opportunity to meet and "interact" with the opposite sex (also spring break), both of which seems to go on year round in Cancun... As a 50 something year old vacationer it was interesting to watch. I also have seen the news and shows about spring break in Florida and other venues and know that many of these "poor college students" manage to come up with the money to participate in that every year... It seems to me that nudist resorts just aren't offering what they're looking for in that regard (and hopefully never will). I also understand that of course not all young people are looking for that scene, but it seems to be the most widely publicized doesn't it?

[JoshuaZ]

I agree with Croydon. Having been to three seperate venues across the country, they were just boring for a 24 year old like me. Everyone wanted to soak up the sun and lay around all day. People didn't appreciate me going in the lake/pool and using the paddle boats/water craft that was available. They didn't particularly enjoy me walking the paths for most of the day either.

It's boring for us younger people to sit around outside doing nothing. Hottubs are fun, but not for long amounts of time, it's still just sitting.

[DoctorSurferDude]

There are buns in the oven.....

AANR is definately investing in it's youth, in it's future. This year's "Youth Ambassador" program wasn't cheap....21 young people came from all over the country to help answer the question of why young people aren't more involved in nudism.

It was a resounding success....there is a new idea brewing that will form the backbone for a national network of young adult nudists as well as serving as an outreach tool to educate more young non-nudists about nudism.

It is happening right NOW....the seeds are growing, and by next year at this time I'm quite sure there will be a presence, an identity that will be something young nudists can call their own.

[Sanslines]

It's boring for us younger people to sit around outside doing nothing. Hottubs are fun, but not for long amounts of time, it's still just sitting.

People go to nudist clubs and resorts for different reasons. Some go to a club after a long hard work week and just want to lay out (in the sun or not) and catch up on some badly needed sleep. I can speak from my own experience. There is a sense at many clubs that younger people today expect to be entertained and have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Some of the older members may not understand this for they grew up during very different circumstances where if they wanted something, then they had to create it or work for it themselves. If it is boring to sit around, then don't sit around. Decide upon some activity that you enjoy and then promote it at the club. Owners and management can not do or provide everything for everyone. It is up to others to take an active roll in their clubs. I do, for if there is not a volleyball game going, then I get up off my butt, go to the intercom, and ask for volleyball players. Once I get a group together, we play. This is what it takes to make things happen at a club - take an active roll in contributing to your club.

[TigerTeam]

Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:
There are buns in the oven.....

AANR is definately investing in it's youth, in it's future. This year's "Youth Ambassador" program wasn't cheap....21 young people came from all over the country to help answer the question of why young people aren't more involved in nudism.

It was a resounding success....there is a new idea brewing that will form the backbone for a national network of young adult nudists as well as serving as an outreach tool to educate more young non-nudists about nudism.

It is happening right NOW....the seeds are growing, and by next year at this time I'm quite sure there will be a presence, an identity that will be something young nudists can call their own.

That is cool!

[rudedogii]

I have never been to a resort but have been going to Blacks Beach for many years. I shure have seen a change in the crowd of people at the beach. Not to many familys any more and smaller crowds as compared to about twenty years ago.
I can see younger people not interested in going to a resort but why not a free beach?

[PhilE]

a lot of the problem with getting young people involved in nudism could be convenience issues. I'm 18 and a freshman in college, and if available, i would go to a nude beach or resort, but there arent any around me and i dont have a car. also, lots of college students (including myself) are short on cash, so they cant really pay the resort fees.

[florida-david]

I can see how the nudist resorts would be boring for anyone 5-45. I have taken my kids to resorts (Sunsports and Eastover), but only when there is a festival going on. At the festivals, there are lots of kids for them to run around and play with. Generally my "activity" is keeping an eye on my kids. When possible, we will play tennis together, swim, etc. but i don't want to always do the kids version of fun, so sometimes i like to lounge around and jsut watch the activity going ona round me. The kids tend to get together with other kids they have been meeting year after year, but the kids have all been clothed as of late.

If Sunsport was closer (it is about 80 minutes away), i would love to participate more as i think Morley is doing an excellent job. I doubt the kids would want to go as all their activities are already filling their time. In addition, i could not afford to go too often, as I need to spend $$ on activities we all want to do.

As for the 24 year olds, i can't imagine them going to the nudist resort unless there were more people their age there. I hope this problem gets resolved, maybe AANR or Morley has the answer, but unless the resort was closer to me, i doubt we will be going there.

Someone posted

"People didn't appreciate me going in the lake/pool and using the paddle boats/water craft that was available. They didn't particularly enjoy me walking the paths for most of the day either. It's boring for us younger people to sit around outside doing nothing. Hottubs are fun, but not for long amounts of time, it's still just sitting."

I tend to like the activities you mentioned at 40 yrs. old. I also agree that the older folks complain about the kids making noise, using the pool, and running around, but every year this negativety gets less and less at Sunsport during the Mid-Winter Festival, so something positive is occuring in South FLorida at least (thanks Morley)...

[Longhairbear]

From what I have been hearing around nudist friends, is that they know of someone,who knows someone, etc. that being a home nudist first is the way alot of younger potential club, and resort guests are starting out. Most if not all just don't have the time, or money to vacation at a resort at this point in their lives. The nudist clubs and resorts are competing with other non nudist venues.
We have discovered that quite a few casual aquaintences are home nudists also. So we have invited them to our place for drinks or coffee, and to be nude if they care to. During the conversations we mention the resorts we have been to, and alot of times they had no idea of local groups, clubs, or resorts.

[Croydon]

I must ask, what is INA doing to bring naturism to young people. Other than having a website and doing weekly news, I have no idea what the purpose of INA and what it actually does.

[dbez1]

Longhairbear, like your idea, nudity does begin in the home or at least it seems the most logical place for it to start. One club I attend seems to have a growing number of young and middle age people that enjoy the nudist lifestyle on occassion, but don't want to commit to a full club membership as many have in the past. Marketing to new potential members and visitors has to change with the times.

[HaroldTheNudist]

Has anyone thought the way to reaching the youth is going to where the youth are? We need to get into schools, have seminars in gyms, advocating nudism to the younger crowd. I believe we should contact the schools, and attempt to have nudist seminars. Perhaps the NAC could give a talk. Slideshows of nude camps

they had sex education when I went to school, why not nudist education?

Harry

[Stu2630]

they had sex education when I went to school, why not nudist education?

That's an interesting idea, Harry. I'll think about that one. :thinking:

Hmmm. You'd have to ensure each child's parents gave informed consent first, or else I can see all sorts of problems.

Stu

[HaroldTheNudist]

Stu

naw! no consent. Just put it through!

it wont hurt them

Harry

[Sigmund]

Somehow I don't think nude education would go over very well with our local PTO. Our bandfront wear skirts that fall several inches below the knee.

[HaroldTheNudist]

you gotta think big and above all else TRY. I believe one of the problems of getting nudism accepted is too many nudist do not try. They don't promote or even talk about their nudism.

what the heck are you ashamed of?

we have to be proactive.

Harry

[Stu2630]

Sigmund

Our bandfront wear skirts that fall several inches below the knee.

Is that what the girls have to wear, too?

Stu

[smoothdnbelow]

Believe me there are worse things going on in schools today. Teach them while their young all about nudity so when they are older they don't have any false or perverse ideas about it. Living a naturists lifestyle is innocent and wholesome, free of all the false intentions or ideas we receive today.
If we educate them early we could see a decline in the way people look at it.

[enertronik]

I just want to touch on the White Tail topic again for a second. While I have never been there, I must say that it looks like the type of place I would go because of 2 things:

-mandatory nudity; I will not feel uncomfortable when others are not nude, and if everyone is doing it, why would I care about being nude?

-plenty of activities; I'm too young to sit around and just 'be nude'. I have a nude beach near my house for that, and it's free. I want things to do, and White Tail seems to have that.

Those are really the two things I look for when heading to a nudist resort or nude recreation area. I don't want to sit there doing nothing, and I don't want to worry about being the only one nude. I'm basically saying what has been said in previous posts from young people, so I think it's safe to say these things will attract the younger crowd pretty easily.

[nud_bare]

I was just reading about the "Naked Pumpkin Run" on this site.

Do local nudist clubs take advantage of these types of events to advertise.
The clubs could be handing out brochures and flyer's about a weekend planned around the collage age group including bands, sports and games at a low price the kids could afford for a date the following spring.

[nakedstudent]

Somehow I don't think nude education would go over very well with our local PTO. Our bandfront wear skirts that fall several inches below the knee.

I don't think nude education is right either. Speaking as a young male, there are several boundaries.

1. Price- I am in college and can't afford to spend much money.
2. Convenience- Higher education still costs money which means either I work during the summer or am forced to take loans. This cuts out a lot of free time.
3. Conventional mindset of a typical college student- Most young people are more interested in getting a piece than finding what is inside someone's mind or heart. This doesn't jive very well with social nudism.
4. Location- I have researched and I would have to drive 3 hours to get to the nearest non-landed club and further for a beach. Sometimes while one is young, they're surroundings are dictated to them rather than chosen.

Nude education as in kids sitting in a desk learning about the place down the road where you can be naked is not the answer. We need genuine publicity. The target group should be married couples in their late 20's and 30's who have young children. Increased membership in that age group will create increased membership in the younger groups too. Younger adults these days just don't have the life experience as a whole to sit down naked in front of a group of people without thinking sexually(just look at our culture of sex sells). THAT needs to change before recruiting will be effective. The only way to change maturity level is to start them young which is accomplished by targeting their parents not the children.

[nakedstudent]

What is the feasibility of clubs or resorts renting more mainstream venues like ice rinks, bowling alleys, restaurants, movie theaters, swimming pools, or gyms? Benefits would be:

Increased guaranteed publicity (i.e. patrons that use the facilities in a clothed setting)

Picking venues that are typically attended by college students and young adults

Building positive relationships with local business owners who may or may not carry clout elsewhere

Just a thought... If it's the lack of activities and familiarity that young people stay away, find what's familiar and active and go there instead of waiting for us to come to a resort?

[usuallylurk]

What is the feasibility of clubs or resorts renting more mainstream venues like ice rinks, bowling alleys, restaurants, movie theaters, swimming pools, or gyms? Benefits would be:

Increased guaranteed publicity (i.e. patrons that use the facilities in a clothed setting)

Picking venues that are typically attended by college students and young adults

Building positive relationships with local business owners who may or may not carry clout elsewhere

Just a thought... If it's the lack of activities and familiarity that young people stay away, find what's familiar and active and go there instead of waiting for us to come to a resort?

They already do.

Reference "non-landed clubs". Here in New England, there ARE several groups that do just those things. In fact, I'm in a group that does "naked bowling" a few times a year, and other groups do the same.

See = http://www.sunchaserstravelclub.com

Now - what **IS** the problem?

Yes, AANR has its little "Nude U" and "Ambassador Program". Whoo-hoo. But those are not effective marketing strategies.

What AANR --and its educational arm, and they have the resources to do it-- and TNS, if they had the resources to do it, need to do is hire someone - preferably a PROFESSIONAL person, or duo , to visit college campuses around the country and educate people = "this is nudism". One young man who had gone through those AANR youth programs got a shot on O'Reilly - and he didn't go after him, but he froze up on camera when asked routine questions, "why do you do it? What are the benefits?" He did manage to get out the "we have x number of resorts" marketing line, but beyond that, nada.

Show ACTIVITIES. Don't show slides of some super resort that is unaffordable to them and then say "oh we have 300 resorts like this".... rather, show them that we have a lot of places you can go, for not a lot of money, and they have activities, etc.

Show them things like the Eastern Naturist Gathering. Or the Avalon Music Fest. Or that you can go to a reasonably-priced nudist campground, and have fun. It will cost money - but you can still have fun.

That's how and why my wife and I got into nudism 30 years or so ago - it was relatively cheap, it was fun, there were activities for people our age (late 20s then). That marketing strategy is not used today. It's all Upscale, upscale, upscale, wow, Paradise Lakes, upscale, money, wow, money!

You get the old geezers like me who may have money, but you turn off the younger crowd that doesn't have a lot of disposable income.

It would be a lot nicer if they said - "nudism reaches out to ALL economic classes, and there's something for everybody here."

AANR in particular -- has a "big splash / upscale / it's big money " marketing campaign, yet cannot figure out why they're not attracting people in their 20s and 30s, and families with kids the way they used to.

They don't have unlimited marketing resources, yet they use that one bullet - Barney Fife style - and manage to shoot themselves in the foot.

AANR and its regions also have so many directors, trustees, officers, task forces, board meetings, committees, in-board meetings, out-board meetings, regional conventions, national conventions, etc. that it can't get out of its own way. You get little things like Nude U and the Youth Ambassador and "where's the Boone trophy" campaigns, but no defined and EFFECTIVE young adult marketing campaign.

I had the chance to talk with an AANR higher up while I was on vacation. We chatted about the young adult situation. I said "scrap the marketing programs that cater to kids of nudists, or existing nudists. Get rid of that Nude U and Ambassador thing. Instead, set up and fund college lecture tours -- "THIS IS NORTH AMERICAN NUDISM." Tell it straight. Dump that silly "300 resorts" house line. Show the full spectrum, not just Paradise Lakes.' Reply (in essence) =

"Oh, that's a regional function."

What about booths at consumer shows, like a camper/trailer show. We have one in Boston. 50,000 people pass through it over a course of a week. Booth rental is relatively cheap.

"Oh, that's a regional function, too."

I also suggested that AANR swallow its pride and reach out to CFI to assist them, because they could effectively promote clubs together, but I could see that concept flew like a lead balloon.

Finally - a media interview with an AANR type =

Reporter = "Want to tell us what nudism is about?"

AANR type = <squawk!> "300 resorts, 300 resorts, 300, 300, upscale, upscale, upscale <squawk!> money money upscale, 300 resorts <parrot squawk>"

[KNude]

Right on! We need a new approach.

[miken]

Well said, UsuallyLurk. Your description of how AANR operates sounds exactly how large corporations are run. The executives in their "ivory towers" have no clue to what is happening in the lower levels and have no incentive to want to find out. All they want is their high salaries and perks.

AANR could do a great deal to promote nudism to the younger people if they would just eliminate the bureacracy. Get rid of the "it's not my job" way of thinking. The job belongs to everyone within AANR.

[usuallylurk]

I might add -- I am NOT a member of the Sunchasers, but have several friends who are -- and are shown in the photos. My wife and I are members of several other groups in Maine and New Hampshire.

I posted that link, primarily because I see postings from people in the Springfield / Holyoke area here in Massachusetts who complain that there's no nudist activity in their locale.

Most fitting is the line buried somewhere on that page =

"Life passing you by? This could be you!"

[sergo or gayle]

Hello everyone

This is a very good question indeed,, and a question that has been reviewed by many resorts including the resort I belong to , for myself I have enjoyed general nudity as long as I can remember , and as a child I remember the first time I saw a gentleman probably in his 80s naked, I was probably around 10 at the time and I remember staring at him for a short time .. not so much in disrespect but more at ( wondering ) apparently at some time he noticed me looking at him and said hello I said hello back and asked how did you get like that ,, he laughed and said I’m a little older than you are , and I said OK.

Being with three other friends we went back to playing in the pool without giving it much thought , as I got a little older it became apparent that go to the nudist club was mainly
To let mom get some sun at the pool and eventually starting spending more time alone
While at the resort , for there was less and less for me to do there , after all being 14 and 15 you can only place so much tennis , volleyball , ping-pong or tag around the pool
Without getting someone to screen..

Or better yet getting some old fart wet because your jumping in the pool too much or simply running around, or been a little too loud for their ears ,

Giving all of that along with my own body changing and have been able to cope
With some of its attitude, which goes embarrassing moments, the resort became
A place to avoid, we occasionally returned to the resort were I would generally
Participate in some of its activities but there again spent much of my time at the trailer

I would say from the age of 16 to 25 I would not go to the resort and would find any excuse not to go ,,, ( sound familiar )

We got married when I was 22and my wife was 21 and we had a son a year in half later since then We have been blest with three boys and two girls, as they were growing up I returned to the resort And enjoyed watching my children grow in a nudist setting with the freedom that I had enjoyed grown up with ,, I also began to begin to understand that peaceful leisure time had become more important has time when on,
I also found as my children for growing, they were experiencing the same scenario that I had experienced as a child and found that around the same age their activity at the resort had all but vanished, without any new interest in their age group,, as I did ,,,,,
they were now at a point we’re going to the nudist resort wasn’t very much interesting for them.

So they stoped wanting to go ,,

Now time hasn’t stopped and I now have grandchildren , as a cycle continues
I now enjoying having my grandchildren and my children visit the resort they are still
Nudist but more as a casual activity .

Which brings us back to the original question ,,, how do we attract younger crown
Time has changed in many ways however staying up to date and keeping up activities/ interest for all age groups is extremely important ,
it can also be regarded as an investment for the future ,,, nudity/nudism will always be around to some degree and although the Internet/media and political advocate against nudity hiding behind pedophilia will eventually take their place among the many propaganda/hysteria . groups against nudism

Education has to start at home, and resort need life for all. ( smile )

Have A Great Everyone

Sergo

[Agde]

What is the feasibility of clubs or resorts renting more mainstream venues like ice rinks, bowling alleys, restaurants, movie theaters, swimming pools, or gyms? Benefits would be:

Increased guaranteed publicity (i.e. patrons that use the facilities in a clothed setting)
Picking venues that are typically attended by college students and young adults
Building positive relationships with local business owners who may or may not carry clout elsewhere

Just a thought... If it's the lack of activities and familiarity that young people stay away, find what's familiar and active and go there instead of waiting for us to come to a resort?
I think NakedStudent is exactly right, and it dovetails with the exasperation of UsuallyLurk and the life-rhythm insights of Sergo. It wouldn't take a very big AANR or other fund to help append clothing-optional opportunities to ongoing local youth activities.

I've talked with American university kids about this and they always come up with lots of ideas. But they don't have a focal group or funding. There should be a naturist club or secretariat in every university, not to do separate nudist activities, but to work with university admin and existing clubs/groups to add a legitimate clothing-optional dimension to ongoing activities. AANR, whether national or regional, is one group that could provide a legitimizing entity behind such a group and clothing-optional activities based on its clear philosphy and well-known behavior principles. Like "FKK" in Germany, an AANR or other logo could become a recognizable signal for spaces or events.

There are lots of natural possibilities -- not just for recreational activities like swimming, bowling, volleyball, and skating, but also linked to studies like, to mention the obvious, environment, sociology, health, history, poli-sci, and, even my field, photography. It just takes some organization and usually a bit of supportive funding to partially defer costs of venues, materials or transport. In an age group where gender relation issues are anything but passive, this would be both welcome and transformative for both students and their schools. Give youth support to organize their own local activities in familiar contexts!

[DoctorSurferDude]

At AANR's Youth Ambassador program last year we did "go out" to places. We visited a University, Textile Beach, Nudist Beach, etc. It was good...at each location we went to we found young people who either had already tried nudism, or who were interested in trying it. So THAT was encouraging.

Then....why aren't they around?

Part of the problem is that young nudists want to hang out with others like them, other young nudists. But since they aren't around much to begin with....there is no incentive.

The Youth Ambassadors are working on that....revolutions start small, but they call it "The Nude Revolution". The word will get out.....soon there will be a website where young nudists can find eachother, and pretty soon you'll see some public service announcements on YouTube, with a link to that website.

[DoctorSurferDude]

Yes, AANR has its little "Nude U" and "Ambassador Program". Whoo-hoo. But those are not effective marketing strategies.

Stay tuned amigo ;)

This is EXACTLY what was discussed at the NUYA (Nude U & Youth Ambassador) program last summer. We are on the same page as you.

You are very right about AANR over-focusing their marketing on older money-bags. It has earned their resorts lots of $$ and afforded some to become upscale luxury pimp pads. But I share your opinion....I think the marketing for the last 20 years has been a complete failure when it comes to making nudism thrive in this country. 90% of AANR is made up of people 55 and older. That is a severe imbalance....and if you apply that to the future of AANR, it is a disaster.

I think AANR realizes that....a little late, but not TOO late to salvage something. So they asked my friend Brian and I to redesign the NUYA youth programs. We did....it was pretty successful....23 young people putting their minds together trying to solve the puzzle.

Our goal last summer was just to get out there and test the waters, to see if there indeed was an interest among young people. Turns out there was a lot of interest. But the problem is there is no point of reference. There are forums and groups....but for GOOD marketing you need a platform. If you hand a young person a business card, you have to refer to an entity that plugs them into something larger. Something that explains what nudism is and provides local contacts, a calendar of local events, and then a way to assimilate into forums and groups with known contacts already there and referenced on the platform website.

Even if there was a spokesperson....even if there was a regular commercial on national TV....it won't work unless you can "plug them in". AANR's website is more of a brochure than a social plug-in. It does not inform and it does not connect....I'm not sure what it does, I actually think it sucks.

So the first thing the NUYA crew recognized last summer is the importance of having a platform website in place. So that will form soon.....it will be called "Vita Nuda" (new nude life), but right now it's just roots without a tree trunk.

What eventually developed was the notion that a few people going out is NOT enough to sufficiently spread the word. Then the idea to have some sort of fun video blog came up....something that not only educated people about nudism, but something that showed them how fun it was, that broke stereotypes by showing them that not ALL nudists were older, and something that refered them to VitaNuda..... YouTube needs a fresh dose of GOOD NUDISM....too much crap on there. If you'll search for "nudism" you'll find some posts have as many as 1.6 million views.....that is why this summer's program will focus on "Social Networking", how we can utilize websites like YouTube to maximize our outreach with minimum effort....and in doing so grow the amount of young nudists exponentially more than any person-to-person effort would achieve.

These sorts of projects don't happen in a matter of weeks....and unfortunately we had some delays because of "politics"...well....in short there was a threat within AANR to eliminate ALL youth programs, but we worked together for a few months to ensure it's survival, and a budget remains for this summer, which is good. Now that that is out of the way.....the important work can begin.

So...that's where I've been for the last few months....busy with my new job, but also busy with, at times, a deluge of e-mails. Solving the "absent young nudists" problem has been something I've wanted to do ever since I became a nudist at 19.....now I finally have the chance to make a real difference. And revolutions are fun to be a part of....especially nude ones :)

I'll keep everybody posted on our progress.

[Bicycler]

Stay tuned amigo ;)

...

There are forums and groups....but for GOOD marketing you need a platform. If you hand a young person a business card, you have to refer to an entity that plugs them into something larger. Something that explains what nudism is and provides local contacts, a calendar of local events, and then a way to assimilate into forums and groups with known contacts already there and referenced on the platform website.

Even if there was a spokesperson....even if there was a regular commercial on national TV....it won't work unless you can "plug them in".

...
I assume that your group had a look at Facebook and MySpace. These sites have become THE THING on the net and they are the clear masters of social networking. It would seem to me that you should consider integrating into one of them or at the minimum studying their approach and copying it.

One of the failings of CFI in my mind has been their failure to perform the basic social netwoking functions that it would seem they are ideally suited to do. Yes we have a great forum and yes we have video of trips to local resorts but there is no attempt by CFI to really organize naturists in a way that would actually get them together. That's too bad but CFI is a company being run for profit and netwoking just isn't in their charter. That's life, They get to make policy. But I'm a customer and so I get to complain.

Back to the problem of the Young Naturists. What you do not want to do, IMHO, is to create a CFI for the young set. I don't think that is the right model. Your model has to be Facebook-like, it has to network these kids and generate and organize activities that they can participate in. You've got to make it fun, let them do all the leg-work, help keep out the wierdos and help them get orgainzed to enjoy nude recreation. If you can get it rolling the kids will make it happen. Facebook and MySpace proved that to me.

But getting it rolling is a tough job. I hope you succeed.

[Agde]

At AANR's Youth Ambassador program last year we did "go out" to places...
Our goal last summer was just to get out there and test the waters, to see if there indeed was an interest among young people. Turns out there was a lot of interest. But the problem is there is no point of reference...
So the first thing the NUYA crew recognized last summer is the importance of having a platform website in place. So that will form soon.....it will be called "Vita Nuda" (new nude life)... the idea to have some sort of fun video blog came up...
this summer's program will focus on "Social Networking", how we can utilize websites like YouTube to maximize our outreach with minimum effort...
Something like VitaNuda is probably part of the puzzle, but web social networking leaves people isolated behind their pcs. I still think that there are two critical missing pieces.

The first, as mentioned, is partnering with existing school and other activities. Having a pocket-full of practical template examples of how clothes-free time can be woven into various activities would be helpful -- step-by-step how to organize "skinny-dipping" hours at the pool, an "Eden Corner" for studying at the library or outside under a designated tree, "feel the music" occasions for baroque music this month and Jimmy Hendrix next, seasonal "nature hikes" with a destination to reach or a rare plant to find, "photograph each other" digital photography training where you keep the pics that others take of you, "learn it in the buff" series covering things people need to but hate to study like tax rules or proper diet, "join the statues" greek sculpture museum tours, "Shakespeare without clothes" (or Plato?) out-loud group readings of difficult-to-stay-awake plays or books, "share your shortcomings" mixed-gender discussion groups on topics like gender equality or body stereotypes in the media, etc. Just brainstorming things that don't require a trip to a nudist resort, but have a fun added clothes-free dimension. Each of these just require some simple but careful pre-organizing. Remix the template for your idea, check with AANR to use their logo, and don't forget to plug Vita Nuda.

The second has to do with legitimizing role models. There need to be people, respected both by youth and by "the authorities" -- and preferably local -- willing to step forward, set the tone and provide a cheerful, healthy, nonchalant, engaged example. High-profile celebrities can provide a spark, but I am thinking of people like the philosophy prof at my college, the female art editor at my first job, or the young Catholic priest on our "free beach" in California. These people had personalities that signaled three legitimizing things to others -- that the practical reasons for clothing that make contextual sense can be separated from the invented ones based on separate issues like fear, sex and shame, that high respect for other humans combined with a strong sense of mutual protectiveness and equality can create a completely comfortable context for everyone, and that taking time to strip life down to the essentials, to live in harmony with nature and others, can really put things in perspective and help cultivate important life skills. Such people can often also help develop "patron" and/or "sponsor" groups to support and further legitimize various activities.

Anyway, as you get rolling, let us know how we can help.

[DoctorSurferDude]

MySpace and Facebook....definately. Lots of the "grads" from the program are on those websites and pretty open about being nudists. That in itself is good PR because it tells other young people that nudism can be fun for young people as well.

Regarding the Schools.....there is SO much potential at colleges. But it is difficult to break into that scene unless you are in it. I'm 32....I'm more like a professor than a college student, so I can't go there and be seen as a peer. It is going to take some very motivated young people to not only be out and proud about being a nudist, but to also motivate their peers..... so until a superstar like that comes along, we'll set up a foundation to build on and something those who ARE independatly seeking can find that will plug them into a network of young college-aged nudists.

Role Models.....send them our way ;) That would do MORE than all of the other ideas combined. It would add legitimacy and a "cool factor" to nudism.....and nudism in general needs a serious dose of each according to the flavor of public opinion.

[Sanslines]

Regarding the Schools.....there is SO much potential at colleges. But it is difficult to break into that scene unless you are in it.

The problem with most colleges and universities is that they breed conforminity through a variety of methods. Many colleges and universities just will not tolerate any deviations from their vision and nudism is certainly a deviation. Another major problem on college campuses that I have witnessed is the extreme lack of interest among college students in protesting anything or advancing any causes. College students are focused on getting their degrees and having a bit of fun on the side but they definitely are not interested in fighting for any cause. It is very important to remember that in today's world, the MOST important thing to a college student is to get their degree, get out into the world, and make TONS of money. Recreation activities, such as nudism, are of a very minor importance to them.

[DoctorSurferDude]

Um....true, to an extent. But I wouldn't want to generalize.

When I was in college.....if there were a nudist group I would have gone to a meeting. But there were....zero. So part of the problem is that there is no way for any nudist souls to find eachother.

Most colleges have a "freedom of speech" area, I know our local state college does. You can get permission from the school to set up there and basically represent your cause. The most memorable one I recall from being there was an anti-abortion demonstration that featured large posters photos of aborted fetuses, bloody baby parts, etc. Needless to say it stuck in my mind....but at this point......I think, nudism is less offensive than bloody baby parts, so why not promote it on the freedom of speech lawn. I think BEING naked would probably be too much, but there are ways to promote nudism without offending. So....problem is, how to find out how to get a spot on that lawn.....I don't go there anymore, I'm clueless.

On a campus of 50,000 students. (UCF). Even if only 1% were open to nudism, that is 50 students! In the AANR Youth Ambassador program last summer.....we actually invaded the UCF campus (summer term) and talked to students about nudism. The interest was more like 10-20%.....maybe only 5% would actually try it....but....DANG.....that would be HUGE! It is just a matter of figuring out how to tap into such a large resource of potential young nudists.

[Bicycler]

... It is just a matter of figuring out how to tap into such a large resource of potential young nudists.

Have you considered generating videos and uploading them to YouTube or Blip or any of the other free video upload websites? There is really nothing pro-naturist on any of these sites now - mostly just silly commercials and such, at least those clips that are SFW. What you need is promotional material that would appeal to the younger crowd that visits these websites and some way to get the link in front of those 5%-10% that might have a real interest in giving naturism a try. SFW interviews with active young naturists would be a good place to start.

BTW, making the videos is really no big deal these days. Software to integrate video, digital photos and music or narration is freely available on the net.

[patjimkatja]

DoctorSurferDude, move your decimal point over one more place. 1% of 50,000 is 500! So you are correct that having just 50 students interested at any one given moment doesn't seem too far fetched.

[muntz]

DoctorSurferDude, move your decimal point over one more place. 1% of 50,000 is 500! So you are correct that having just 50 students interested at any one given moment doesn't seem too far fetched.
Yeah, if AT LEAST 50 showed up you'd have a fair start for maybe some bands to play for the students...concerts or dancing are always popular for bringing young people out.

[usuallylurk]

Stay tuned amigo ;)

This is EXACTLY what was discussed at the NUYA (Nude U & Youth Ambassador) program last summer. We are on the same page as you.

You are very right about AANR over-focusing their marketing on older money-bags. It has earned their resorts lots of $$ and afforded some to become upscale luxury pimp pads. But I share your opinion....I think the marketing for the last 20 years has been a complete failure when it comes to making nudism thrive in this country. 90% of AANR is made up of people 55 and older. That is a severe imbalance....and if you apply that to the future of AANR, it is a disaster.


Think outside the box, Doc. This isn't about young adults and AANR. It's about young adults and NUDE RECREATION.


I think AANR realizes that....a little late, but not TOO late to salvage something. So they asked my friend Brian and I to redesign the NUYA youth programs. We did....it was pretty successful....23 young people putting their minds together trying to solve the puzzle.


One problem. You are 23 young people -- with no marketing experience, nor the past vision of seeing AANR go from marketing themselves to "all people, all ages, all economic strata" to "the crowd at Caliente and Paradise Lakes."


Our goal last summer was just to get out there and test the waters, to see if there indeed was an interest among young people. Turns out there was a lot of interest. But the problem is there is no point of reference.
<snip>


AANR has to change its focus. Immediately. Quickly. Otherwise you guys are in a "school exercise" that may roll along but accomplishes nothing.

Kinda like what a lot of people think about AANR right now. Its task forces-committees- directors - officers - trustees layers at all the regional and national levels -- it can't get focused. It's too big.

. Something that explains what nudism is and provides local contacts, a calendar of local events, and then a way to assimilate into forums and groups with known contacts already there and referenced on the platform website.


If you're thinking about a website, you're wasting your time. It might be interesting to look at, but look at CFI. A great website. A great approach (will AANR look at it or work with CFI?) but how many people actually come here and try out nude recreation for themselves?


Even if there was a spokesperson....even if there was a regular commercial on national TV....it won't work unless you can "plug them in". AANR's website is more of a brochure than a social plug-in. It does not inform and it does not connect....I'm not sure what it does, I actually think it sucks.


AANR should take some of its marketing bucks -- DOLLARS -- and hire a professional or two to bring the message to college campuses.

Not sit around and think about it. Not turn the task over to a Youth Ambassador project and tell them to get back to us in a few years.

You shouldn't be running around one campus and handing out brochures. You should have ONE or TWO professional marketing types -- giving the lowdown on North American nudism. The Youth Ambassadors CAN make a difference on campus -- by making FACULTY aware , and presenting this to them as an interesting topic -- and letting them know that YOU have a professional representative who does the lecture circuit.

Otherwise, it's just an ineffective hobbyist effort. I wonder if the "where Ilsey trophy" campaign money could be turned over to hiring a spokesperson.


These sorts of projects don't happen in a matter of weeks....and unfortunately we had some delays because of "politics"...well....in short there was a threat within AANR to eliminate ALL youth programs, but we worked together for a few months to ensure it's survival, and a budget remains for this summer, which is good. Now that that is out of the way.....the important work can begin.


So how many years will it take to get something practical going? Two? Five? Ten?


So...that's where I've been for the last few months....busy with my new job, but also busy with, at times, a deluge of e-mails. Solving the "absent young nudists" problem has been something I've wanted to do ever since I became a nudist at 19.....now I finally have the chance to make a real difference. And revolutions are fun to be a part of....especially nude ones :)


AS I SAID... use some of those marketing bucks, and hire a pro. Full time. If someone could visit 100 college campuses in a year -- and link up with 100 sociology professors -- and give the pitch -- "This is nudism" and that there is something for every age group and for people from every economic strata. I noticed that when the young Vickers gentleman got a liveshot op from Bill O'Reilly -- he stumbled, he stammered, and the only thing he got out was the house line that "we have all these resorts". If a professional marketing person were to TELL IT STRAIGHT to a young audience -- you might get somewhere. You might not get them to come out today, but in the next few years, when they have a dollar or two in their pockets. They will know it's here.

And it will NOT yield immediate returns. But then again, is what is being done now doing that? Hell, no.

But hire someone professionally to do it. This youth program has been kicked around for a couple of years and it's going nowhere. Time to change the approach.

[WTR1986]

I am a frequent goer of White Tail, and I'm cool with several of the people there. As a younger guy who goes there at 21, I too, agree with this thread. We really need a way to bring in younger crowds to the park. I've been going there since I have been 18 and I have noticed since going in 2004,the park has not...evolved, to a point where people under 30 could seriously enjoy the place.
Here are a few things I have noticed:
-The activities are geared towards the older crowds, and don't really change that much during the year. It's usually volleyball, darts, karoke, a dance, repeat. Maybe bring in some new innovative things, like maybe making new games to play, or maybe a big movie night on Saturday nights showing very recent movies. Someone mentioned earlier that they should bring in video games, this is true! How about a big Halo tournament? The games at WTR are still in the Super Nintendo era! That's bad! LOL! At least bring in a PS2 or something! I know on a Saturday night or a Friday night, I like going to movies, just chilling with friends, etc. Make it a place like that, even in the winter, except a place where you can be nude.
-The music in dances...update it a bit! It's not fun dancing to the same 1970 and 1980 era music all the time. Bring in something different, like techno or something like a rave! Even some more of the modern day music would suffice. I used to enjoy dances, but after a while they got old...fast! And no, by modern, I don't mean "Hot in Herrre" by Nelly 10000 times (even though, it pretty much is such a nudist song, LOL).
-Advertise, marketing, advertise! Think about some of the ways that people get involved in parks...marketing! I saw that WTR was an ad in our college newspaper at ODU and was like "YES!" But the ad was so dry... But the internet is possibly the biggest e-marketing tool out there. The website WTR has now is great, but it is a little dated. As a customer, one of the biggest things I check out before I visit a place is the Pictures area, and I see nothing but 6 old photos that just show the grounds. Show parts of the resort, like the pool, some of the people having fun (they don't have to be nude), something different and something that'll make me wanna be like "I wanna go there!" Even make a WTR MySpace page. Shoot, I wouldn't mind making it myself. I talked to people up in my area who wouldn't even mind coming to a resort, but I show them the site and they just see blandness. Spice it up a bit a little.
-The weight room is in a DIRE need of update. A lot of the weights are broken in the room and pretty dated.
-Resturant, but they are working on this one so I have to give credit for it. It's just taking some time for it. But yes, us youngin's love to eat lol. So putting in VA's probably only real nude resturant would bring in people for sure. If the snack bar ain't open, the nearest resturant is about 10 miles down the road to Burger King or Dairy Queen, and with the gas prices these days, it seems really out the way for a quick snack.

But, WTR does manage to do a lot right. They charge VERY cheap for college aged people, only 10 bucks a person. That is something most clubs do not do. But Bob and company are doing a great job with that park in Ivor and if it wasn't for me not being in the area anymore, I would totally be a member there again. We gotta find a way to get 18-30 year olds comfortably coming back there again.

[DoctorSurferDude]

BYCYCLER..... right there with you :) That is actually the direction we've been pushing towards since last summer. This summer's program will emphasize "social networking" (i.e. YouTube, MySpace, Blip, Facebook, etc.) and integrating it all together.

The one ingredient that would be missing is a way to tie it all in together, an avenue to pull those on the outside into the inside. If somebody sees a video on YouTube featuring nudism and says "cool, I want to try that" they need a way to plug in. That is where the AANR website fails, where this website doesn't quite cut it, but hopefully where the website we are creating will bridge the gap.

USUALLYLURK..... rest assured our goal is to promote "nude recreation". AANR happens to be the organization which has put up money for this effort. But AANR is not rich....funds are limited. If I was a millionare I would gladly sponsor it, and if you are....feel free. But as it stands now, there is no way in the world AANR could afford to HIRE any professionals. Most of the organization is run by volunteers. Brian and I donate our time for free because we feel dedicated to changing the young nudist deficit.

As far as professionals go..... Brian IS a professional businessman with years of experience. He has a masters degree in marketing strategies & IT utilization. AANR couldn't afford him. For my part....prior to medical school I owned and ran a web design business. If you've ever been to AANR.com you should know that work like that is "template" CSS work.....there is very little "design" in that, I could have done a better job. And in case you don't know, a site like AANR's costs between $20,000-50,000, believe it or not. The site I'll make on behalf of the Youth Ambassadors won't be a part of AANR, it will be it's own entity....and it will cost only time.

I have my gripes about the way AANR runs things too. But you've gotta understand the money is limited. AANR had to cut the marketing budget 50% this year. If this is your area of expertise and you would like to help AANR improve their marketing, then I would encourage you to volunteer your time as a marketing professional.

[Trainfan]

Hey WTR, I haven't been to White Tail, but the things that you talk about seem to be pretty common at all the parks, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Young people are our future and every park should be making an effort to bring in the younger crowd. Just out of curiosity, have you mentioned your ideas to White Tail? You'll probably get the standard "all those ideas are expensive" but perhaps maybe a brainstorming session might help the situation. It seems that these fixes to get more younger people involved are going to happen at the grass-roots level. But maybe AANR can help too. Like Dr SurferDude said, he would have gone to a nudist group meeting in college if only they would have had one. Maybe that's another idea.

I do think that we in the greater nudist community had better do something, otherwise a lot of these beautiful resorts are going to turn into more cookie-cutter housing developments.

[DoctorSurferDude]

WTR1986... if you want to see a solution, sometimes you have to BE the solution.

"There is no certainty....only opportunity" -- V (for Vendetta)

Be a liason for WTR....resorts NEED young people to help them. For the most part they are being run by people your grandparent's age. Generation gap times two... There is no way they can come up with what young people want, they are too far displaced. They need somebody like you to go in there and direct their efforts. In your post...it took you 5 minutes to solve their puzzle.....print that out and go ask to talk to the managers/owners of WTR. BE THE MAN :)

Here is what has worked so far down here. $10 student discount is fine, but spread out too much. You should have "YOUNG ADULT" days, once a month. All days should be FREE for first time visitors, but on the Young Adult days, see if you can get the resort to offer $5 ground fees for 18-35 year olds. Or maybe "free with college ID" would be better on those days. See if you can get them to agree that on those nights....there will be a young DJ playing current music (just one Saturday a month). Have food coupons to hand out to the young people that show up.....like, free icecream with purchase of whatever. If their advertisement doesn't work....tell them.....and tell them what WILL work. Ask them if they would like YOU to create and manage a MySpace page for them. Then help to organize activities for those once-a-month Young Adult days.....whether it's movies or video games....make it happen.

If you are motivated to get involved and make changes.....write me. Cause those are the qualifications to become a Youth Ambassador. That individual motivation is the fuel for the entire effort.

Sam

[DoctorSurferDude]

Outside of the Youth Ambassador program.....we have a group of non-AANR young people from Central Florida who meet up about once or twice a month. They get together either at Cypress Cove's $5 Young Adult days, or at a local nude beach, etc. Here is what I've learned....

What young adult nudists want most.....is to be around eachother.

If you get a small group of young people together....and all they do is sit around in the pool all day, they will still consider it one of the best nudist days they've had, because of the people they were with. Nudism is about connecting, and to connect with a like-minded peer group will keep them coming back.

[usuallylurk]

The one ingredient that would be missing is a way to tie it all in together, an avenue to pull those on the outside into the inside. If somebody sees a video on YouTube featuring nudism and says "cool, I want to try that" they need a way to plug in. That is where the AANR website fails, where this website doesn't quite cut it, but hopefully where the website we are creating will bridge the gap.


YouTube will not allow, and will delete, any video that contains nudity. The only thing that will accomplish is an opportunity for a "nudists as victims" cry, which is somewhat popular in some circles. You want to avoid that.

CFI **DOES** cut it. The problem is, AANR has to be willing to work with CFI. I'm curious to know if the topic came up, or if anyone suggested that AANR try to work with CFI. I suspect I know what the reaction was.

Perhaps the Youth Ambassadors could offer a good, low-def, low-bandwidth video and put it here? Or on the AANR website?


USUALLYLURK..... rest assured our goal is to promote "nude recreation". AANR happens to be the organization which has put up money for this effort. But AANR is not rich....funds are limited. If I was a millionare I would gladly sponsor it, and if you are....feel free. But as it stands now, there is no way in the world AANR could afford to HIRE any professionals. Most of the organization is run by volunteers. Brian and I donate our time for free because we feel dedicated to changing the young nudist deficit.


It's good you're volunteering. But AANR could very well have the money to fund a "youth ambassador" professional -- if, they opted to scrap a lot of the task force / board meetings / trustees meetings / directors meetings -- and divert the expense of flying all of those people around the country several times a year, and hire someone full time to do it.

Also - if my understanding is correct, AANR hires a professional firm to do their marketing for them. Basically, their shtick is to try to get the mainstream media to write articles about nudism the AANR way (the "300 resorts" boilerplate line). Perhaps they should ask that marketing firm to shift its focus away - just a little bit -- from Caliente and Paradise Lakes, and give you guys a little attention.



I have my gripes about the way AANR runs things too. But you've gotta understand the money is limited. AANR had to cut the marketing budget 50% this year. If this is your area of expertise and you would like to help AANR improve their marketing, then I would encourage you to volunteer your time as a marketing professional.

I had a joke yesterday, as I was at a nudist gathering and we had a discussion about AANR.

One of my friends is retiring to Florida. He is an AANR member, and I suggested that if he wants some nifty vacations, he could run for an AANR or regional director position. There's work, but it's fun and oh, the places you'll go!

It's a matter of priorities for those at the top. Do they cut their travel to board meetings and junkets, or do they cut their marketing budget?

Those decisions are SO, so difficult when you're sitting poolside at Cypress Cove at the board meeting in November, so what do you do?

After all, since cranking up the dues radically a few years ago, they figured that it would lose members but raise revenues in the short run, and increase the demographic a little bit. Well, some clubs decided to dump the 100 percent rule, some in the interest of self-preservation.

They'll probably talk about it at the next meeting at (I think) DeAnza Springs. I think that's in February. And the various conventions.

Well, that's my little speech. BUT .... I think I have an idea. I'll repeat it.

First of all, do NOT show the collegians the "super resorts" and say "there are 300 places like this." Do NOT do that. Even if AANR preps you and says "resorts, 300 resorts (parrot squawk), 300, 300" or whatever number they're plugging into their house line on any given day.

I'm not going to give you any money but I will give you advice. Here's around $100,000 worth of marketing advice, for free.

Do the following.

1) Come up with an EFFECTIVE PowerPoint presentation. Do it yourselves, without "guidance" from the AANR office. Avoid sensationalism. Avoid a canned, commercial message. In this presentation show - fun for all ages, and ALL economic strata. Keep in mind that this presentation is not about getting people to AANR res-, uh, sites and selling AANR memberships but selling the fun of nude recreation. Right here in New England, I could talk about --

The Ledges
The Punchbowl
The Eastern Gathering (yeah, that's the OTHER organization. You could learn from them)
A few good landed clubs. Solair has a video.
.. and then, throw in, "oh yeah, we do have a few super-luxury places in Florida and California for those who have the money", and perhaps talk about Avalon's music fest. Show camping, music, food, beverage, dancing. Do not show old folks sitting around the pool or playing shuffleboard at Paradise Lakes. Do not show petanque. And above all (again) do NOT - do NOT use the "300 resorts and we grew to 50,000 members (in the last century)" line. It's funny - go to a Naturist gathering or festival, and you WILL see some younger people doing things that appeal to younger people.


2) Choose two of your number. Preferably a guy and a gal who can get up and talk to people. Rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. Be prepared to give a 90 minute dog-and-pony show. Practice in front of a few non-nudist friends, and tell them to challenge you with questions. Do it again for another small group of non-nudist friends. Same thing. That way, you'll be able to prepare answers for most questions you'll likely be asked.


3) When you feel you're ready - forget handing out brochures, etc., but go to the faculty. Sociology / anthro folks would be a good area. Tell them what you want to do. Some may let you do your pitch as a class session. Or, ask their assistance in setting up a seminar or open gathering. Most colleges and universities will let you do that, because they welcome discussion of controversial topics.

AND - only do so at a university where open discussion is welcomed. State universities. Ivies. Even Jesuit universities would allow discussion. But don't try to do it at a conservative Bible campus. I doubt Jerry Falwell's Liberty University or Bob Jones U would let you on campus, but this has been done at some state schools in the Carolinas.

NOW you've got an audience. You may have 30 people, or 50, or 200. But you can now market (not sell) nudism to them. But you have one shot. Do it HONESTLY and since your presentation will be aimed at the 20-something set, it will go over, because of the sales/identification issue (a common sales / marketing practice).

And after it's over, make yourselves available for Q&A, first "on the stage" and then privately. Give out your brochures at that time.


4) OK, you didn't sell any AANR memberships. You didn't fail. You got the message across. And some weekend after that, you may see a few people at the local resort or non-landed club gathering. The message, not the money, is the important thing.

If you can "sell" the idea of our mode of living and / or recreation to the college set, you may not make nudists out of them, but they will know and perhaps try it out when they have a buck or two, or the time.

That's "public relations".

Let me know what you think.

[DoctorSurferDude]

UsuallyLurk,

I would not want to violate any YouTube terms....and in fact I don't think it is necessary to show breasts or genitals in order to convey what nudism is about. This has been in the planning for months now.... I happened to mention it in her as a part of conversation, but rest assured, we have multiple minds working the bugs out.

CFI is fantastic....in my mind CFI is the best, every chance I get to contribute to the segments, I do, cause I admire what CFI is accomplishing. The membership of CFI, particularly ClothesFreeTV, are made up of nudists. There aren't a lot of 20-something nudists around though. The population we are trying to reach is that group....20-somethings....non-nudists, but open to the idea. They aren't the people who come to this forum or who would purchase a CFI membership....unplugged individuals...BUT....with potential. Those are our target. YouTube is free, everybody uses it, young people use it the most, particularitly "Gen Y". Our best bet for reaching the most people is YouTube.....but I'm not against featuring a video here, that's a good idea. But there is no video yet....it's coming.

I agree with you about what I would describe as complete inefficiency regarding the internal workings of AANR. However....I'm not at this point in my life willing to go in and try and change it, so I try and be careful to offer empty criticism. As a metaphor...just because I like a streamlined speedboat doesn't mean a pontoon doesn't float and isn't pleasant. To my knowledge the AANR board is not on Salary....they are volunteers too. Travel expenses are paid, but that ends up being...somewhat negligible.

AANR fights legal battles that we never even hear about, even on the level of legislature in Washington, DC. That is probably the greatest drain on their resources....and the majority of American nudists reap those benefits without realizing the battles that occur or contributing to them. And then...as you stated, probably the second largest bill roll is to the professional PR firm, although that budget has been cut 50% this year.

Regarding your suggestions.....

#1 That exists already, but PowerPoint is an inefficient way to reach the masses. Good for board meetings and e-mails. Better stuff exists for that.....Web pages, Flash multimedia, Videos, etc.

Naturist gatherings is a good idea. Do you know of any popular with young people? (The AANR national/regional conventions are not popular with young people).

#2 That is what Youth Ambassadors essentially is. There is a public speech element, a challenging questions course, a press training segment, real life application at universities, multiple nudist resorts, textile beaches, nude beaches, etc. It is more than two who participate....more like 20, some are better at it than others. BUT....it is not enough. If you reach 100 people.....statisticly only 10 or less will be interested, and of those only a few will actually follow through. We will continue to do the "grassroots marketing" as we call it, but it became very clear last summer that we NEED something to refer them to, to plug them into. It isn't enough to say "oh yeah...there is a pool concert at the resort tonight, you guys should come, it's free".

#3 For the last couple of decades AANR has been doing this. It is a repeated effort in California, Florida and New England...other places too, but those are the only 3 that I know the people who go to the classrooms. The first hand report is this....it is good, students are curious, they have their questions answered. But after YEARS of passing out free passes to local resorts, the concensus is that it is very low yeild. We are dealing with a numbers game again....in a single year, even if you can reach 500 students, only 1% of those would seriously consider trying nudism. And when they do....they will be surrounded by the 50+ crowd and have little motivation to return again. Again....they need to be PLUGGED IN to a network of active young nudists who regularly get together.

#4 I agree with you 100%. I'm not selling memberships, or AANR for that matter. Membership should be considered a bonus, but more like the fruit of a tree that takes time to grow. People who have been around nudism long enough eventually learn what AANR does, but there is no way to sell a new nudist on the AANR concept. I was a nudist for over a decade before I joined AANR, I didn't see the point. So what we need to focus on is re-packaging "Nudism". I've done a lot of polls on MySpace, AIM friends, etc. The #1 reason young people aren't interested in nudism is because they sexualize it....fair enough, this is America. The #2 reason they don't try it is "old men"....the guys don't want to see them and the young girls don't want to be stared at by them. So...there are a number of stereotypes, some unfounded, some not. We need to SHOW young people what nudism is, SHOW them that other young people their age enjoy it, SHOW them that it is fun and worth their time and beyond that, provide them a way of plugging into an established network. My goal is simply this....to grow the groups that have formed, and to form the groups that havn't.

[usuallylurk]

UsuallyLurk,

CFI is fantastic....in my mind CFI is the best, every chance I get to contribute to the segments, I do, cause I admire what CFI is accomplishing. The membership of CFI, particularly ClothesFreeTV, are made up of nudists. There aren't a lot of 20-something nudists around though. The population we are trying to reach is that group....20-somethings....non-nudists, but open to the idea. They aren't the people who come to this forum or who would purchase a CFI membership....unplugged individuals...BUT....with potential. Those are our target. YouTube is free, everybody uses it, young people use it the most, particularitly "Gen Y". Our best bet for reaching the most people is YouTube.....but I'm not against featuring a video here, that's a good idea. But there is no video yet....it's coming.


Then you're re-inventing the wheel. AANR should make it available on their site as well.


I agree with you about what I would describe as complete inefficiency regarding the internal workings of AANR.


So have thousands of others who have voted with their feet.


To my knowledge the AANR board is not on Salary....they are volunteers too. Travel expenses are paid, but that ends up being...somewhat negligible.


Is it? When I'm at the Cove and see a number of AANR types there, and then they're planning their February gathering in Arizona, and the conventions next summer -- how "negligible" is it ???


Regarding your suggestions.....

#1 That exists already, but PowerPoint is an inefficient way to reach the masses. Good for board meetings and e-mails. Better stuff exists for that.....Web pages, Flash multimedia, Videos, etc.


Yes, but my point was not the medium being the message. My point was that connections could be made with college faculty, and nudism presented as a lecture offering.



Naturist gatherings is a good idea. Do you know of any popular with young people? (The AANR national/regional conventions are not popular with young people).


Well, it isn't just "young" people. But, the Eastern Naturist Gathering is one event.

Every year in Pennsylvania, White Thorn Lodge hosts the Nudist Volleyball Super Bowl.

I've never been, but there is the Avalon Music Festival in West Virginia.

And there are nude beaches here. And I'm sure many clubs would love to attract more younger people.


#2 That is what Youth Ambassadors essentially is. There is a public speech element, a challenging questions course, a press training segment, real life application at universities, multiple nudist resorts, textile beaches, nude beaches, etc. It is more than two who participate....more like 20, some are better at it than others. BUT....it is not enough. If you reach 100 people.....statisticly only 10 or less will be interested, and of those only a few will actually follow through. We will continue to do the "grassroots marketing" as we call it, but it became very clear last summer that we NEED something to refer them to, to plug them into. It isn't enough to say "oh yeah...there is a pool concert at the resort tonight, you guys should come, it's free".


10 or less will be interested... TODAY. What to plug them into? The local groups and clubs in one's area.



#3 For the last couple of decades AANR has been doing this. It is a repeated effort in California, Florida and New England...other places too, but those are the only 3 that I know the people who go to the classrooms.


The only effort I knew of was in the Carolinas - where a lady named Cheri (active on this board) has guest-lectured at some state universities. New England? Where? Because I'm a member of one landed group, and three non-landed clubs, and have never known of any collegiate contacts in any of those.

The landed park I belong to (not AANR affiliated) does not welcome people in groups -- but I have not heard of the non-landeds having their information used as a contact reference.


The first hand report is this....it is good, students are curious, they have their questions answered. But after YEARS of passing out free passes to local resorts, the concensus is that it is very low yeild.


It's about discussion and education, not signing people up today.


My goal is simply this....to grow the groups that have formed, and to form the groups that havn't.

Boston is the number one college city in North America. Eastern Massachusetts has probably 100+ colleges and universities. Where are all these 'groups' that have formed? I would likely know about them. And are your Boston-area contacts plugged into the club scene here?

Would they like to be?

[DoctorSurferDude]

We are currently trying to wake AANR up to the concept of multi-media and social networking.....it takes patience.

We aren't re-inventing the wheel. "It" may not be what you think "It" is.....I'm not even completely sure....it is still taking shape. Try not to draw conclusions on ideas that are still just ideas.

Volleyball Superbowl..... the Youth Ambassadors were there. That was the first big "event" since last summer. It drove the point home that we can be surrounded by young people, but if we have no network to plug them into, they are lost to the wind.

Who sponsors the Eastern Naturist Gathering? TNS?

I can't keep repeating it... but "plugging into a local group or club" is not enough. Young nudists age 18-35 are exceedingly rare. They need to be among their peers or they will feel a sense of not belonging. They need to SEE that there is a growing network of young nudists who are actively enjoying nudism. Without that....they will be lost to the wind.

I thought Cheri was from New England. My bad.

Ask Cheri how many of the young people she's lectured have taken her up on the invitation to visit their local nudist resort :(

[usuallylurk]

We are currently trying to wake AANR up to the concept of multi-media and social networking.....it takes patience.


As I said, one of the reasons I dropped my AANR membership three or four years ago -- it was an organization that so much "infrastructure", it can't get out of its own way and move forward.


We aren't re-inventing the wheel. "It" may not be what you think "It" is.....I'm not even completely sure....it is still taking shape. Try not to draw conclusions on ideas that are still just ideas.


Right - but if it takes two-three years to "take shape" ... we're losing time, and you guys and gals will have been involved in what is little more than an exercise. Let me give you a lesson in government.

Some years ago, we had an enterprising 17 year old here in town. This is not a nudist issue -- a governmental one. He was going to be 18 by the following January. So, instead of running for Student Council, he did something else.

He ran for the school committee. And he won. Teachers were frightened -- a STUDENT is voting on their contracts and raises! Oh my, the inmates now have a say in running the asylum! They were so scared, that now the student council president sits on the "committee" - sort of -- he has a voice but no vote, unlike the guy who was elected.

My point is, he could talk around and around in circles on a student government or go to Boys' State. Or he could have an impact. He chose the latter.

Perhaps the Ambassadors could take one step beyond what they're doing and one or more of you should run for one of the many trustee , director, or officer positions that are out there for the regions or national level. That way you would be on the committee, not the student council. And if you cannot do that, try to get a candidate to align him/herself with your cause and state it when they run.


Volleyball Superbowl..... the Youth Ambassadors were there. That was the first big "event" since last summer. It drove the point home that we can be surrounded by young people, but if we have no network to plug them into, they are lost to the wind.


But there IS a network. Realistically - there are 200+ groups (I am not going to say 200 resorts) in North America you could work with. They're called the AANR clubs, non-landed and landed. There are also clubs not affiliated with AANR.


Who sponsors the Eastern Naturist Gathering? TNS?


I am saying this in good spirits. Please take this criticism in that spirit.

Frankly, if you don't know who runs the ENG, you guys ARE out of touch. The Eastern Naturist Gathering has been run for a dozen years.

For the last ten, it has been held at Lenox, Massachusetts, at Eastover Resort. It is arguably one of the top five clothes-free/clothing-optional gatherings held in North America every year. It is the ONLY major event in which a major nude rec. organization takes over a textile resort for a week.

It's held in late June. Yes, it's not an AANR event. But it's an event you can focus your audience on. While it has attendees of all ages, there ARE a number of younger people there. Perhaps this is an event you can steer people toward, because it has (potentially) a lot to offer the 18-30 set.

Since it is held in New England - an area where AANR really doesn't hold regional or national events, it's the "big one" for folks in New England and New York.

You should check it out. Perhaps, send one of your number to do a seminar there.


I can't keep repeating it... but "plugging into a local group or club" is not enough. Young nudists age 18-35 are exceedingly rare. They need to be among their peers or they will feel a sense of not belonging. They need to SEE that there is a growing network of young nudists who are actively enjoying nudism. Without that....they will be lost to the wind.


And you guys/gals have to avoid the self-fulfilling prophecies. Examples I've heard, in trying to get my (coupled) friends to go to events away from Cedar Waters =

"My wife and I can't go to (club-so-and-so). It's got too many single males."
... problem with that argument, if you DON'T go and bring your other coupled friends, it will remain that way.

You're using the same argument --" we can't get young people to go to the clubs because young people don't go to the clubs."

I'm in three non-landeds. Two are AANR related, one is not. As far as I know, you haven't reached out to them. One of them (the non-AANR Naturist New Hampshire) had to cancel an event recently that was held not far from the Dartmouth College campus for lack of participation. They also hold events very close to the Keene State campus.




I thought Cheri was from New England. My bad.


If you haven't talked with Cheri and about her activities, you're ignoring a critical resource that's available to you. Apparently, in your Youth Ambassador meetings, her activities - which she's been doing for years, at low-cost to AANR members , some years NO cost, should have been reviewed, and it looks like they haven't been.

Instead of your wondering where she lives (South Carolina, BTW, and she is on this board) -- you have ME wondering why she's not involved in your activities. She can give you some guidance.

Did I mention she's on these boards, and was also recently named AANR Woman of the Year?


Ask Cheri how many of the young people she's lectured have taken her up on the invitation to visit their local nudist resort :(


Her activities were more along public relations lines, and not marketing. Her prime intention in her lecture tours, as I understand it , was to EDUCATE people in nudism, not necessarily recruit them. She does run a very successful non-landed club, and I'd talk with her. I'm surprised you HAVEN'T. Such a lecture tour could be tied into upcoming events at nearby clubs. Far more effective than having people run up to strangers and handing them brochures.

And someone could, on *almost any* given campus, attempt to organize a nudist club as an "RSO" (recognized student organization).

No, Cheri's not in her 20s. But she's talked to and worked with MANY in the 18-22 set. And I know her. She's hip. She's youthful for her age. The younger set CAN relate to her.

[melissastarr]

If young people is now ages 18-35, as you say, then I guess that would be me. I started being a nudist when I was 28 and I'm now 32, so I guess my whole nudist experience has been during the 'young adult years.' Basically, I 'found out' about nudism on the net and was greatly supported by the people on the web site that I found and, without their support, would never have given nudism a chance. Since a lot of people in this age group are internet-savvy, I think we've already achieved one of the first major goals: supporting new nudists or people interested in nudism on the internet. I'm not sure if young adult males receive the support that I did, maybe one of them can speak for that issue.

Another way that I think people in my age group can be supported in nudism is to have things that are interesting to them at events. Sure, we like to socialize and eat, but we're also active. We enjoy the volleyball games and swimming that are common at many nudist events but are lacking at others. Some resorts are definitely more active than others in this regard, too, I'm sure. If you're at a resort and playing volleyball or playing wallyball in the water, invite the young people around you to join in- they may very well say 'yes.'

Beyond this, just an open and friendly atmosphere, as most of us try to have anyway in the nudist community, is very important. I don't know that we need to fight over what way is best to 'recruit' new people to nudism. If people aren't open to it now, they're probably not going to be open to it if we push it on them. But we CAN be supportive, forthcoming, welcoming, and provide fun things to do should young people decide to investigate nudism and/ or give nudism a try.

Just my two cents worth.

Melissa

[usuallylurk]

Melissa,

I think I can answer one of the questions -- would people be as supportive of young single men as they were of your efforts to get started? Probably not to the same degree, but there IS acceptance in many circles. The situation is that a lot of those who show an interest, won't pick up the phone and make a call about coming out to an event.

But that's a whole other topic for another thread.

My criticism isn't aimed at DoctorSurferDude, but the direction that the Youth Ambassador project is taking, and it seems like there's a lot of talking but no action. Plus, they only seem to have part of the picture.

I guess they sent a group to White Thorn, but it's apparent that they have little knowledge of the TNS Gatherings and Festivals -- which are NOT a bunch of fifty-somethings playing shuffleboard or lounging by the pool. YES, some people are that way, and choose to lounge, but there are all sorts of events that do cater to younger people. At least there are at Eastover.

There are organized groups that regularly hold events -- some up here in New England, one in your area that I've heard about, one in the New York City area, etc., that would be receptive to young adults.

I think what I'm concerned about with the YA project, is that it runs contrary to AANR's "upscale-upscale-upscale-look at all these resorts" (and IMHO, very MISGUIDED) marketing approach of recent years.

My wife and I entered nudism in our mid-late 20s. We knew what it was, we had read about it, and took the "plunge" when we were new parents and around 27 years old. It was pitched to us as very affordable recreation, highly relaxing, and full of people our age. Some older, some younger, families, couples, singles, etc. -- a great mix.

The main approach today is getting the people with money and discretionary income. Recruiting the young is a side goal - if it happens, great. If it doesn't, we still are aiming at a higher demographic anyway, so what's the big deal?

And as I said in a post earlier today, it looks like YA is assigned a "student council" status. They may come up with some good ideas , although it's going to take more than a round table on a summer vacation and a trip to White Thorn to figure out what the problems are and how to solve them.

And will the inner circle of AANR take what they say seriously? I have my doubts. If they thought that the aging of nudists is a problem for nudism's future, they wouldn't turn the problem over to a group of college students.

Not that they can't help. They can. But they need some of the professional marketing guidance that AANR has used to promote its upscale resorts. They need to see the TOTAL picture of North American nudism. They need to see that it's not just AANR clubs.

And the YA group has to think beyond "hey, let's put a video on YouTube! No, let's hand out brochures! Oh boy, let's try (something else), it sounds like fun!"

They're looking at YouTube. They should be looking at magazines that appeal to the metropolitan young adult - GQ, Men's Health, MAXIM, Esquire.
And perhaps planning their OWN nationwide event around Nude Rec Week next July.

If AANR wants to do something - perhaps a young adult festival would work -- on the same weekend as part of nude recreation week - and engage resorts and clubs all over the country to do that... and build a website JUST FOR THAT. Organize it now and begin promoting it as soon as you get buy-in from five or six clubs.

Just one thought, because Doc says there's no network to plug into. CREATE one and ask folks to join it.

However, the problem is VERY serious. AANR has to recognize that. It can't be left up ONLY to a group of students, two or three years into nudism, to explore the problem as if they were at "Boys/Girls State". They need professional assistance to solve the problem.

[DoctorSurferDude]

I wish I had more time in my days. UsuallyLurk, you bring up some very good points, but I can't keep up with the long posts.

I know you have concerns about the YA program, you've made that very clear. Some of your constructive critcism is good, I'm listening. But some of it is really out of touch. You quit AANR, it has "infrastructure" problems, I agree. But do you seriously think you are up-to-date with what is happening in a sub-group of an organization you stepped away from 4 years ago?

Your ideas are good, but they've all been tried before. The 50-something nudists who originally came up with the program 4 years ago. If that is your age I mean no offense, it's just that the gripes are similar to what we hear within AANR from the same generation. Please trust that the young people from the program know what methods will work to reach their peers.

College Classes....AANR has done that, it is low yeild
Magazines.....good idea, 10 years ago, magazines are from the "newstand era", this is a dot-com era
Politics.....I don't want to sit in boring board meetings, neither did you, why should they?
Professional Assistance.....only way I see that happening is if YOU pay for it, cause AANR won't.
Campus Groups.....I wish!! but easier said than done....trust me, it's come up a lot.

Regarding "results".....you want instant results too? Let me tell you what I've told AANR. You can't expect to fix in 6 months a deficit that took 20 years to create. In the first 3 years the YA program focused on media outreach and public speaking....drew 4 to 6 people each year. Results were so poor that AANR considered it a waste of time. Last year Brian and I were asked to re-design the agenda, we looked at it and decided it needed to be turned up-side-down. So we did that. We had 23 young people turn up. I consider that a good result. There was a DVD produced which is going out this month to 250 AANR landed/non-landed clubs. If you want to see it, ask your local resort owner to look for it in the mail. Since the YA meeting last summer, the group has reconviened in PA then again in Miami, FL.....Tampa, FL is planned for spring. All of this is on their own time. The ideas are flowing..... good ideas. 6 months is not quite enough time to turn all the ideas into a reality.....you'll have to forgive us for that.

Eastern Naturist Gathering sounds like a good event. I thought it was TNS....a "yes, that is correct" would have been a sufficent answer. I've intended to join that organization, they have a great publication, far better than the Bulliten. So the ENG may on the same weekend as the YA program, but....it's multifactorial, currently up in the air....I'll keep you posted. I'm hoping by that point the networking website will be set up, which will allow young people to be a part of the movement regardless of their affiliations or locations.

All I can say is that things ARE happening. You just have to be a little more patient. And you're going to have to trust that we are doing the best with what we have..... It is easy to offer criticism from the sidelines.....but the actual game is always a little more involved.

[usuallylurk]

I wish I had more time in my days. UsuallyLurk, you bring up some very good points, but I can't keep up with the long posts.

I know you have concerns about the YA program, you've made that very clear. Some of your constructive critcism is good, I'm listening. But some of it is really out of touch. You quit AANR, it has "infrastructure" problems, I agree. But do you seriously think you are up-to-date with what is happening in a sub-group of an organization you stepped away from 4 years ago?


Not a sub-group, but I do follow things, because I have never shut the door on re-joining.


Your ideas are good, but they've all been tried before. The 50-something nudists who originally came up with the program 4 years ago. If that is your age I mean no offense, it's just that the gripes are similar to what we hear within AANR from the same generation. Please trust that the young people from the program know what methods will work to reach their peers.


Hopefully, you will.


College Classes....AANR has done that, it is low yeild


OK, I accept that...


Magazines.....good idea, 10 years ago, magazines are from the "newstand era", this is a dot-com era


Uh, those magazines are STILL selling.... and very well.


Politics.....I don't want to sit in boring board meetings, neither did you, why should they?


I don't blame you.



Professional Assistance.....only way I see that happening is if YOU pay for it, cause AANR won't.


BINGO! Give the Doc a cigar! That **IS** the problem! I'd rather see my membership dues go toward the YA than to all these board meetings.


Campus Groups.....I wish!! but easier said than done....trust me, it's come up a lot.


Nothing is necessarily easy, Doc.


Regarding "results".....you want instant results too? Let me tell you what I've told AANR. You can't expect to fix in 6 months a deficit that took 20 years to create.


No, I wouldn't expect it to be fixed in six months. But in a couple years, yes.


So we did that. We had 23 young people turn up. I consider that a good result. There was a DVD produced which is going out this month to 250 AANR landed/non-landed clubs. If you want to see it, ask your local resort owner to look for it in the mail. Since the YA meeting last summer, the group has reconviened in PA then again in Miami, FL.....Tampa, FL is planned for spring. All of this is on their own time. The ideas are flowing..... good ideas. 6 months is not quite enough time to turn all the ideas into a reality.....you'll have to forgive us for that.


I will look for the video. I would not expect results in six months. I would expect to see progress in three years, however.



Eastern Naturist Gathering sounds like a good event. I thought it was TNS....a "yes, that is correct" would have been a sufficent answer.


The reason I was long-winded is that I was surprised that you didn't know the details.


So the ENG may on the same weekend as the YA program, but....it's multifactorial, currently up in the air....I'll keep you posted. I'm hoping by that point the networking website will be set up, which will allow young people to be a part of the movement regardless of their affiliations or locations.


Same weekend? Well, perhaps Eastover would be one hell of a place for your YA meeting.

[melissastarr]

It appears I've popped in to quite an argument, now that I've scrolled through a bit of this thread. As a kindergarten teacher, I want to put one of you in one corner and the other of you in the other corner, give you time to think it out, then talk it out slowly and gently in ways where you're hearing what the other is saying without thinking up your next words.

You ARE ON THE SAME SIDE: You both want more young nudists. You both want the big organizations, AANR and TNS, to help toward this end. You'd both like them to see the big organizations do more things and different things.

You're just coming at it from different angles. One of you is more on the 'inside' of AANR and is trying to change things from within. The other has dropped AANR altogether and has 'sided' (for lack of a better word) with TNS, though I don't know if you are a TNS member and I don't know that I've seen you identify what TNS is doing to help out young nudists beyond the once a year festival that you mentioned.

Neither of you is completely off track. But don't you see how you have to work hand-in-hand to get the young set here? The hostility that I see between the two of you would turn potential nudists AWAY, not bring them back with their questions. And AANR and TNS? They often work together for common goals. They need to work together more in the future, I think, for the advancement of nudism.

Let's see if we can be model nudists, the kind of people that new, young nudists would want to be around.

Melissa

[usuallylurk]

Melissa

Yes, we are pretty much on the same page.

I am a TNS member. I think -- having the AANR YA movement look into what TNS does for regular activities is a good thing. I think the YA movement can be a good thing, but it needs more support from the AANR higher ups. It needs marketing support.

But the people in it are doing as good of a job as they can.

Now - you are involved in a club -- in a college town -- if AANR YA asked for an outreach to YOUR club, what would your club's reaction be?

[Naturist4Ever]

As a kindergarten teacher, I want to put one of you in one corner and the other of you in the other corner, give you time to think it out, then talk it out slowly and gently in ways where you're hearing what the other is saying without thinking up your next words

*** A WARM THANKS *** for that message: it should be blinking in front of everyone's eyes everytime they are a writing a hasty reply trying to counter someoneelse.

[melissastarr]

Now - you are involved in a club -- in a college town -- if AANR YA asked for an outreach to YOUR club, what would your club's reaction be?

I think our club would be quite open to the YA being involved with our club, as long as the confidentiality of our members was protected (our leader is a minister and some of our members hold jobs in the community which could be jeapordized if people found out we're nuidsts.... for example, I'm a kindergarten teacher and some of the parents might flip.) I think the YA program could do marvelous things here in Philadelphia and I'd welcome the opportunity to support them here, though I'm not sure in what capacity they'd need supporting. I guess that's one area where many of us are clueless- what CAN we do to support the YA program or other such programs?

Melissa

[usuallylurk]

I think our club would be quite open to the YA being involved with our club, as long as the confidentiality of our members was protected (our leader is a minister and some of our members hold jobs in the community which could be jeapordized if people found out we're nuidsts.... for example, I'm a kindergarten teacher and some of the parents might flip.) I think the YA program could do marvelous things here in Philadelphia and I'd welcome the opportunity to support them here, though I'm not sure in what capacity they'd need supporting. I guess that's one area where many of us are clueless- what CAN we do to support the YA program or other such programs?

Melissa

Well, Doc could probably tell you -- from what I know about colleges in/around your area - Villanova, St. Joe's, Penn, LaSalle, Temple.

Are there any YA members who attend any of the "big five"???

[DoctorSurferDude]

I like TNS....last summer the theme of their summer magazine was "Young Adult Nudism"....that definately got my attention. I spoke of it to some AANR peeps and asked why the Bulliten didn't have any dedicated space to the youth movement....fizzle.

UsuallyLurk....you might be happy to know that most of us who work with the AANR Youth programs have our loyalty towards the youth before the organization. This past fall a vote went through to continue funding for the program....in other words, the program's existence was under threat. If it had been terminated, our back up plan was to go talk with TNS. I'm not an organization loyalist, in fact I need to renew my AANR membership, and I'll be getting a TNS membership too. The decision was simply the path of least resistance.....it is easier to continue a program and make changes to something that is already funded than it is to create a program from scratch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does TNS have an equivilent of the Nude U and Youth Ambassador programs? I'm outside that political loop, but to my knowledge there is no dedicated funds for growing the young adult sector. No organized effort within.

If there is funding waiting to be used, hey, let me know :) I'm not a loyalist, I don't claim any political party and I certainly don't claim any nudist organization as the one and only. There is not one YA who is so loyal to AANR that they wouldn't take the opportunity to be a part of TNS as well. Tell TNS to start a bidding war with AANR if you want.....that would be fine with me, twice the funds is twice the fun :)

Active self-motivated YA's that come to mind..... Florida, Atlanta, DC, Virginia, Chicago, New Mexico, Southern California, Northern California.

I don't think we have any in the "Big 5". But it just takes...one. For instance, University of Cental Florida has 50,000 students. Statistically, 1% of that campus would be up for trying nudism....that is a heck of a lot of young nudists. One person could potentially find a few....bit it takes more than just one person. Resources.....you need flyers (pdf). Flyers don't say enough, so you need something to educate people, a webpage. People might have questions, so you need a contact. If there are to be activities....you need a calendar, maps. You need people to see that it isn't a farse, so you need photos of the outtings. In this day and age you need social networking to fill in the gaps (myspace, facebook, etc). Want to show the bigger picture....you need YouTube. That is the minimum that you need to make a dent on a college campus like UCF. But once it is created, once the foundation is poured and the basic structure is created.....then ANY young motivated nudist from ANY college can use it to create their own local movement. And all the movements will be interconnected on the same website....like a network, so that eventually if somebody from NY wants to come to FL for spring break and hang out at a nude beach with people their age....that will be possible.

If I didn't believe this could work I wouldn't invest time into it. So...if you look over and say "hey, there is no house there!", please understand that we are still pouring the foundation and we have yet to form the basic structure.....but those involved dreamed up the house, they can see it and they are excited about it. You'll eventually see too what they see and I'm sure you'll like it too. But it will take a little time, thats all.

[DoctorSurferDude]

I guess that's one area where many of us are clueless- what CAN we do to support the YA program or other such programs?
Melissa

Network. In the verb sense of the word.

Here is an example of a problem you might have encountered before. You're at your local nudist resort and you run into a couple, 24 and 26. Maybe you introduce yourself, start a conversation and learn that they are new to nudism. So....you talk for a while, you share your story and.... then what? You dont' know them well enough to give our your phone number, and you don't want to seem stalker-ish by asking their e-mail or phone number so....you say "yeah, good meeting you. Come back sometime" and they say "oh yeah, totally, this is fun". Maybe they came back, maybe they didn't, you got busy, they probably got busy, maybe they used up the free coupon and next visit is $50 so they don't want to pay that.....and what was a rare even of young nudists crossing paths at a nudist resort is....LOST. Isn't that frustrating?

Here are some areas where potential is lost....

1. We have nothing to offer them. Except conversation.
Solution: Every single resort near a college NEEDS to have student discounts and regular student days where rates for that day are super low ($5 or free).

2. We have no way of educating NEW nudists.
Solution: You can only talk so long about nudism. There needs to be a publication, such as a website that focuses on showing what is best about nudism....including multimedia.

3. In a typical day at a resort, we have no way of proving to them that nudism isn't a past time of senior citizens.
Solution: Again....multimedia. Literally....we need to SHOW them other young nudists exist.

4. There is no platform for them to find you again.
Solution: Be easier to find.... yet not publicly exposed. A memorable website and your first name, easy.

5. No way to possibly convey all the information about what goes on locally without being annoying.
Solution: A website with regional highlights, a local calendar and local young nudists who meet up for events and have a way of reaching eachother, even though they might not have eachother's e-mails or phone numbers. The network (noun).



So what is hard for me is that I know young nudists exist, I see them at the beach, at other resorts....but I have no reason to just go up and talk, they'll think I'm a swinger. I want a card I can hand out that has a logo and a website. Something that doesn't try to SELL anything, no memberships. I want the people in Tampa to know who the people in Orlando are. I want the people in PA to know who the people in NY are. I want the people who got to White Tail to know of the young people from Olive Dell. But at the same time I don't want to threaten any jobs or betray anybody to the ever lurking internet weirdos. So....that can exist, and once it does, networking will be easy.

The problem is......networking (verb) is hard to do without an established network (noun). The noun hasn't been created yet.

BUT.....you can still try it. Not at your job or at the mall.....but just at your resort. When you see young people come by, go up and talk to them. Talk to them about nudism and what is on the horizon for young nudists. If you can, form a small group of friends....once that forms, it pretty much has a life of it's own, it's awesome to be a part of that energy.

So work on small changes at your resort, with discounts for instance. Try not to let other young nudists slip away without at least saying Hi. And when you form a group, keep it together....cause once the network is formed, you'll be able to plug into it and it has the potential to be exponential after that.

Meanwhile....if you have any questions about the YA program, please feel free to e-mail or, better yet, ask in here, that way everybody can read about it and maybe a few more young nudists will find out about it.

Sam

[usuallylurk]

DoctorSurferDude said =


"Here are some areas where potential is lost....

1. We have nothing to offer them. Except conversation.
Solution: Every single resort near a college NEEDS to have student discounts and regular student days where rates for that day are super low ($5 or free).

2. We have no way of educating NEW nudists.
Solution: You can only talk so long about nudism. There needs to be a publication, such as a website that focuses on showing what is best about nudism....including multimedia.

3. In a typical day at a resort, we have no way of proving to them that nudism isn't a past time of senior citizens.
Solution: Again....multimedia. Literally....we need to SHOW them other young nudists exist.

4. There is no platform for them to find you again.
Solution: Be easier to find.... yet not publicly exposed. A memorable website and your first name, easy.

5. No way to possibly convey all the information about what goes on locally without being annoying.
Solution: A website with regional highlights, a local calendar and local young nudists who meet up for events and have a way of reaching eachother, even though they might not have eachother's e-mails or phone numbers. The network (noun)."

AH! There's a group, or organization. It's called CFI , or Clothes-Free International. www.clothesfree.com ....

Here's where the AANR YA movement and CFI could work together....

Now for the $64 Question = could AANR and CFI work together?


On another related note --

You could approach TNS and offer to form a SIG - or Special Interest Group. SIGs have come and gone, but there are currently 21 of them listed, with interests from outdoor recreation to amateur radio to writers to Christian naturists to GLBT interests. I'm sure they'd welcome an 18-30 SIG.

[Naturist4Ever]

University of Cental Florida has 50,000 students. Statistically, 1% of that campus would be up for trying nudism....that is a heck of a lot of young nudists.

Make it 0.1% and you are at a more realistic target. You are talking nudism afterall, not a bout of skinnydipping. Another starting point for estimates is the number of americans participating in a nudist activity at least once a year, surely it is less than 1% but 0.1% is probably a conservative but realtistic lower bound. Still 0.1% of 50k is 50 students.

Given that - my take would be, how to avoid spending efforts on 49,950 students to reach the valuable 50.

Then:

3. In a typical day at a resort, we have no way of proving to them that nudism isn't a past time of senior citizens.
Solution: Again....multimedia. Literally....we need to SHOW them other young nudists exist.


Solution: "be honest". Nothing is as disappointing to state: there are young nudists and then one young nudist turns up and finds him/herself totally outnumbered by what could be his/hers grandparents.

That is why I am in favour to gather these 50 (0.1%), create a dedicated activity day or something, a opportunity to hang out with likeminded. These young people have lots of other things going on, you don't expect them to be there every single day anyway (as many of the oldies). Cater to their needs. Better one good event in a summer then 10 bad ones (poorly attented).


So what is hard for me is that I know young nudists exist, I see them at the beach, at other resorts....but I have no reason to just go up and talk, they'll think I'm a swinger. I want a card I can hand out that has a logo and a website. Something that doesn't try to SELL anything, no memberships. I want the people in Tampa to know who the people in Orlando are. I want the people in PA to know who the people in NY are. I want the people who got to White Tail to know of the young people from Olive Dell. But at the same time I don't want to threaten any jobs or betray anybody to the ever lurking internet weirdos. So....that can exist, and once it does, networking will be easy.

Exactly. Yes, you need to network. You need a starting point, someone who is young enough (or looks like it) to act as an "ambassador". No-one will think you are a swinger. This year we will introduce the first-year-free-no-strings-attached-membership, for anyone up to 27yrs. Just go up to them, hand out some material, and a pen, and get them to sign up. If it is free they will do it. This is the entry point to building this network. Spread the information without pressing (selling) anyone into anything. If you have something real to offer, young people will appreciate that ultimately to cover costs, someone has to start paying. But as an introduction and building that network it could be a start.

Keep this discussion going!

[Croydon]

DoctorSurferDude said =



AH! There's a group, or organization. It's called CFI , or Clothes-Free International. www.clothesfree.com ....
I STILL do not know what CFI does or it's purpose. Other than this website, the nude in the news, and their visits to resort, I have absolutely no idea what CFI does or has done to get nudism to young adults.

I can see the site attracting young people but that is as far it goes, a site. I have not heard or seen CFI spreading the words of nudism to young adults by going to beaches, universities, or other venues where one may see a higher concentration of young adults.

I don't think CFI is an organization. I have always pictured it as a FOR PROFIT website. It charges fee for membership, privileges to the site, sells CFI merchandise and the money made is redistributed to the site and other expenses.

[NudeTopher]

I STILL do not know what CFI does or it's purpose. Other than this website, the nude in the news, and their visits to resort, I have absolutely no idea what CFI does or has done to get nudism to young adults.

I can see the site attracting young people but that is as far it goes, a site. I have not heard or seen CFI spreading the words of nudism to young adults by going to beaches, universities, or other venues where one may see a higher concentration of young adults.

I don't think CFI is an organization. I have always pictured it as a FOR PROFIT website. It charges fee for membership, privileges to the site, sells CFI merchandise and the money made is redistributed to the site and other expenses.

AANR is a non-profit organization. TNS is a non-profit organization. Just like other non-profits i.e. American Cancer Society, The United Way, and the Boy Scouts of America they exist solely to benefit a cause. CFI is a business, it's a FOR-PROFIT corporation. It must pay taxes on it's profits. In fact, didn't it just get sold again - this time (back) to Corky?

I certainly have no problem with for-profit corporations. I have no issue with this site supplying Corky and anyone else with an income from the profits. But, let's call it what it is. And what it is isn't a non-profit that exists solely for the benefit of naturism. It exists solely to support those that own the corporation. The product that it sells is nudism be it picture in the private galleries, dvd's, etc.

[DoctorSurferDude]

CFI is monumental, it is innovative, it is a site that opens doors to possibilities. ClothesFreeTV has been in existence since 2002. That was before YouTube....that was still back when VHS was still considered an acceptible format....at that time, Corky was broadcasting news segments on the internet. That is actually cutting edge.

I did web design for a few years, as a business. I can tell you that bandwidth, especially bandwidth in 2002 is not cheap. There is no way any person could afford to broadcast news on an independant website for free. Plus the forum, which we all enjoy for free is definately NOT free, it's costly. The operation cost of this website exceeds what most of us make in a year. If you've ever met Corky, you'd know that he is one of the best guys you'll ever meet, he is not pursuing an easy life, he works hard at his craft and this website is the product of his hard work, it is a labor of love more than a business.

I think we would all agree that our favorite part about this website is the Forum. There is no other forum for nudism that compares to this one. People find their way to nudism in this forum, they discover what nudism is about in this forum. The posts are searchable and serve as a library for nudism.....it is a Socratarian masterpiece, I think. It provides education through discussion and acts as a reference library. There is no other site that does that for nudism....

But...I'm off topic, aren't I?

[DoctorSurferDude]

UsuallyLurk... I think AANR would be glad to work with CFI. They better, cause they'd probably stand to gain more in the co-op. The first step would be to make CFI an AANR affiliated business, or an AANR charter, which would allow people to join AANR directly through CFI. So sort of a bundled membership that includes news access as well as the benefits of being an AANR member. But I'm not the one to work that deal.....Brian Spence, who is a Nudecaster extrodinaire also happens to be on the AANR-West board in charge of Marketing. I'm sure the topic has come up and if negotiations need to be made, things would go smoothly since the two of them are good friends.


Naturist4Ever..... Even if it's only 50, I think that would be worth it. Orlando, for instance has other colleges, and expanding past that, there are a bunch more. Last summer we had a "young adult weekend" and 4 people from UF came, which we thought was excellent.

Part of last summer's program was first hand research. It was experimental, but it answered a lot of important questions. For instance....we took about 18 of them to UCF for a few hours. We split them up into groups of 2 or 3 and challenged the YA's to go up and talk to students about nudism. We reached about 40 students, about 50% were not interested, another 25% were supportive but not interested in trying it, about 10% expressed interest in trying that someday and another 10% had already tried it. Believe it or not. We had 4 students who agreed to come out to our Friday Night Concert at the Cypress Cove pool. But....they were lost to the wind. So probably the most important thing we learned from our experiences last summer is that we can INDEED find them, we just have no way of keeping them. Which is why I'm conveying the importance of forming a tangible network to plug them into.

My experience regarding numbers occured in my 20's. And still kind of a sporadic effort on MySpace. I met a number of people on the internet, back in the days when AOL was king. Being the introvert that I was, I found it an easier way than approaching people I knew nothing about downtown or at school or wherever. I made a lot of friends, eventually I met my wife on AOL. So I've been doing that as long as I've been a nudist....and I didn't hide that I was a nudist, so it came up in conversation. In my experience....about 1% of the people that I talked to had already tried or were active nudists....by that I'm including home nudism, nude sunbathing, skinny dipping. I'd say the amount that are curious and willing to give it a try exceeds 5%. For instance....in my 20's I had about 15 nudist friends, I introduced about 10 or so of them to nudism, but the other 4 or 5 had already been to a nude beach. So I definately didn't meet 1,000 people. I don't remember the actual number, but say I'm a big nerd and it was 100. That is 15%....which matches the UCF experiment.

So I'm past hypothesis and onto theory. And my theory is this..... there are way more young nudists out there than we think. Most of them are POTENTIAL nudists, so our efforts should be focused on finding them, and enabling them to find us. But right now....nothing exists to support that. So....they go about their lives, walking by eachother each day and never knowing that they share this sense of freedom with others around them.

[usuallylurk]

AANR is a non-profit organization. TNS is a non-profit organization. .

NO. AANR and TNS are **not** non-profit organizations.

TNS has both the Naturist Education Foundation as an adjunct, which is and the Naturist ACTION Committee -- the political arm. They are both non-profit. But The Naturist Society is *not* a tax-free non-profit organization.

AANR is not tax-free, although certain educational funds and structures within them may be, check with your accountants.

But just for the record, neither is a tax-free charity, or non-profit organizations. They are both businesses and they pay taxes.

[usuallylurk]

I STILL do not know what CFI does or it's purpose. Other than this website, the nude in the news, and their visits to resort, I have absolutely no idea what CFI does or has done to get nudism to young adults.

I can see the site attracting young people but that is as far it goes, a site. I have not heard or seen CFI spreading the words of nudism to young adults by going to beaches, universities, or other venues where one may see a higher concentration of young adults.

I don't think CFI is an organization. I have always pictured it as a FOR PROFIT website. It charges fee for membership, privileges to the site, sells CFI merchandise and the money made is redistributed to the site and other expenses.

There is no doubt that CFI is commercial. However, they do a good job of presenting nudism as something other than old folks sitting around a pool, or playing shuffleboard and petanque. AANR, and perhaps TNS should sit and touch base with them. CFI could effectively help them promote their clubs and resorts, and also assist in "un-graying" a lot of nudism.

While the lobbying and educational arms of TNS are non-profit, TNS is NOT non-profit. AANR is not, to the best of my knowledge a non-profit, although its educational arm is.

[Croydon]

My question still hasn't been answered. What is the purpose of INA? What has INA done to bring nudism to young adults (outside the website). I really do not think it has done much. I have not heard of any outreach programs done by them.

I am not saying INA doesn't serve a purpose but I am not sure what it is.

[usuallylurk]

My question still hasn't been answered. What is the purpose of INA? What has INA done to bring nudism to young adults (outside the website). I really do not think it has done much. I have not heard of any outreach programs done by them.

I am not saying INA doesn't serve a purpose but I am not sure what it is.

First of all, they dumped the "INA" moniker, they are now CFI. The "INA" label led to confusion with the International Naturist FEDERATION, which is the worldwide association of national naturist groups.

Second - their purpose -- is basically a for-profit motive. They are in the internet and online video and DVD business. But along the way, they are promoting a very positive message regarding clothes-free recreation. I, too, was skeptical when they went "online" but from my view, they look like a positive group.

Third - they COULD be an excellent channel - if they were to work directly and closely to either or both of the national "majors". As I said to Doc, INA could cover and detail the activities of the AANR YA. INA could also visit more gatherings and festivals.

The problem is - and I'm going to be very blunt about this -- most of the people who check in here don't seem to be personally involved in social nudism. Some are. I have met several folks from this board before it ever came up, and several who occasionally check in here at the various Eastover gatherings through the years.

But for those who come in here often and never get out to a facility or group or gathering, it's sad, because they don't know what they're missing out on.

That being said, I'd love to see CFI present more "club nudism" -- and encourage the younger crowd to get out and try it out for themselves. If they could work with the clubs, that would work to the benefit of BOTH.

One other thing -- there had been an online nudist radio station for a couple of years and it disappeared. That might be a great TNS / AANR / YA / CFI joint venture. Cost is minimal, clubs could advertise, it can be automated, and it could present straight talk on nudism just as the old radio station did.

But

[Kim_WTR]

a lot of the problem with getting young people involved in nudism could be convenience issues. I'm 18 and a freshman in college, and if available, i would go to a nude beach or resort, but there arent any around me and i dont have a car. also, lots of college students (including myself) are short on cash, so they cant really pay the resort fees.
I totally understand about college students being short on cash having put 2 children through college, however at White Tail Resort there is a discount for college students. With a valid college ID your grounds fee would be 10.00 for a single or 20.00 for a couple for the day. There is also a discount for young adults that are not in college and also they offer military discounts for day fees.

[garbo]

from DrSurferDude:
So probably the most important thing we learned from our experiences last summer is that we can INDEED find them (young nudists), we just have no way of keeping them. Which is why I'm conveying the importance of forming a tangible network to plug them into.

Doc..
A lot has been written on this topic and honestly, I did not read every word of each post, but this is my take on this. I agree that there may be lots of young people interested in trying nudism, but there are many reasons they may hold back. These include cost, peer pressure, parental pressure, questions about whether it is sexual or non-sexual, the fact that many young people are thinking inside the box and not outside, lack of extra time with so many students now going to school AND working part time, more exciting outside activities they can participate in... and the list goes on! I also agree that forming a tangible network to keep those young people that are interested tuned in is an excellent idea.

Your idea of the older resort guests extending their hands in friendship to the young people is admirable. It is a great idea and some will do that. I think most of the older folks will not go out of their way to welcome an influx of teens, college kids and young adults. They may feel that too many young people may change the quiet, relaxing complexion of "their" resort. They may feel it will make the resort too noisy, could encourage mischievious behavior or bring sexual energy to the non-sexual environment. Take a bunch of college kids, remove their clothes and start drinking beer and who knows what hell can break lose! You say it can't happen, but it can and this may be exactly what resort owners are afraid of. Many older resort guests and members may be somewhat resistant to change and the club owners may go out of their way to please the older guests with disposable money!

The contra argument is that promoting young people at the resorts builds a continuing resource for involvement down the road. I don't think Cypress Cove feels that way or they would be promoting more to the young people and providing meaningful incentives.

I agree that creating an environment where young people can come and visit, be active and involved, provide activities that they enjoy is a good thing. I encourage and welcome that. I also think that potential young nudists may be too few in number to market to. I further believe that AANR and TNS.. even CFI are doing their part in promoting a healthy and happy nudist experience to families but may fall short when it comes to young people.

The resources are there. Will the young people take notice? That's a good question. Will the young people go the extra mile to pursue their nudist curiousity? The answer is YES, if there is a good reason to do so!
garbo

[miken]

Garbo

You're wrong about Cypress Cove. They are actively trying to attract more of the younger crowd. They provide special youth oriented weekends with reduced rates and activities geared toward the younger set. They are also actively working with AANR to appeal to younger nudists.

[Croydon]

from DrSurferDude:
So probably the most important thing we learned from our experiences last summer is that we can INDEED find them (young nudists), we just have no way of keeping them. Which is why I'm conveying the importance of forming a tangible network to plug them into.

Doc..

Your idea of the older resort guests extending their hands in friendship to the young people is admirable. It is a great idea and some will do that. I think most of the older folks will not go out of their way to welcome an influx of teens, college kids and young adults. They may feel that too many young people may change the quiet, relaxing complexion of "their" resort. They may feel it will make the resort too noisy, could encourage mischievious behavior or bring sexual energy to the non-sexual environment. Take a bunch of college kids, remove their clothes and start drinking beer and who knows what hell can break lose! You say it can't happen, but it can and this may be exactly what resort owners are afraid of. Many older resort guests and members may be somewhat resistant to change and the club owners may go out of their way to please the older guests with disposable money!
I think for a lot of older nudist, the lack of young people in nudism isn't an issue on the top of their list.

I believe that many older nudist are fine with the way things are. Furthermore, they don't see the problem as THEIR problem. Lack of young people really isn't an issue that affects them or their ability to participate in nudism. In another words, many don't care about the issue and don't see it as THEIR problem. They attend nudist events and gatherings and find plenty of people around their age, have their interest and share their ideas. They are happy, and in some ways, blissfully ignorant about the issue of lack of young people in nudism.

It is similar with the way we watch or read the news. Many people watch the news and see a sad story about hunger in the world or the turmoil in another country. We think to ourselves, "oh how sad, I wish I could do something", and then we move with our lives never doing anything or giving the situation another thought. But reality is, we can do something but just choose to not because it requires us to do some work.

The same can be applied to older nudist and the lack of young adults