Sicko

[Elendil]

I just saw Michael Moore's "Sicko." This is a very thought provoking look at the American health care industry. Sicko is funny, enraging, sad, and most of all asks the question: why does the riches country on earth does not have universal health insurance?

http://nudefreedom.blogspot.com/2007/07/sicko.html

[Elendil]

I just saw Michael Moore's "Sicko." This is a very thought provoking look at the American health care industry. Sicko is funny, enraging, sad, and most of all asks the question: why does the riches country on earth does not have universal health insurance?

http://nudefreedom.blogspot.com/2007/07/sicko.html

[MJ_KC]

I generally do not like Michael Moore much at all, but this is one movie of his that I most certainly want to see as soon as it is released on DVD.

[nudenwv]

it doesn't surprise me that i e-mailed the state capital of west virginia, to the then govenor that knows the effect of the steel mill that went under which i was working in and got caught up in the whirlwind. it was about the treatment center that's refusing me for further treatment til my balance due is paid. that seems to be the american way!

[garbo]

I have not seen Sicko yet, but I certainly want to. Director Michael Moore had carved a niche for himself by taking highly contriversial topics and creating educational and entertaining documentaries in a "Saturday Night Live" type format. He seems to have perfected the art of creating concepts into pieces/parts of understandable vignettes, often exaggerated to make a point and keep the audience hooked.

The subject matter this time is one that has been on the forefront in this country for a long time. Clearly, the healthcare system we have now is not meeting the needs of many Americans. Health care issues have created nightmares for both the caregivers and patients alike. Many caregivers are looking for alternative medical opportunites to offset the growing malpractice insurance rates. I am also aware that corporate insurance policies are being re-written with higher deductables and out of pocket costs and reduced coverages. It is unbelieveable that so many Americans have no insurance at all. Everyone is affected and all will benefit from reform.

[Journeyman]

There is another thread discussing this film, and a URL where you can download the film NOW, apparently with Moore's permission. I think it's a must-see documentary for all Americans.

http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4430062...020059794#4020059794 (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4430062734/m/7570077794?r=4020059794#4020059794)

[Eric6420]

I will probably see this movie soon.

Michael Moore is doing his best to bring some left wing ideas in the USA.

However, I do not think that the USA will have a universal health care system like other western nations soon.

You just have to listen to conservative talk radio to know that there is a culture of bashing the poor instead of helping them in America.

Anyway, a lot of the poor are listening to right wing evangelists who tell them that the life after death is far more important that their life in a human body. Another way to tell, they do not care if you die without care, Jesus loves you... There is a strong link between strong religion and state irresponsability.

[Naturist Mark]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/healthcare.jpg

[Elendil]

Good one Mark! Some would make this a left wing issue. It's NOT! Why can a piss ant country have universal health care and the Greatest Nation on Earth can't?

Plus, everyone -Left, right, and center all have horror stories about themselves or loved ones being crushed or mismanaged by HMOs or other for profit medical care.

Something must be done!

[Matt King]

Health care; I am glad I have insurance but get this my policy covers 100% annual physicals. Well I had been 2 years since the last physical. And dear old Blue Cross is giving hell about paying anything on on the annual physical? They will eventually pay (I hope) but I am paying for this insurance and if you don't push it they pay nothing. I hate think what they would do it I had a real medical situation

[DoctorSurferDude]

I really hate HMO systems. The decisions about what SHOULD and what SHOULD NOT be covered are made by people with a highschool education that sit there and follow algorithims. Hospitals have been forced to charge more for their services in order to recoup costs (since HMO's often pay only a percentage of actual cost). Physicians have taken a relative pay cut compared to the regular inflation curve making it difficult to afford to open a private practice that would enable them to actually regain some control over how they choose to defy the mandates of the HMO's. Meanwhile HMO's continue to raise the cost of healthcare, making it next to impossible for most Americans to afford to choose insurance, instead they settle for anything that is offered through their employer, which is usually crappy insurance....although you can bet that the CEO of that crappy insurance company gets paid multi-millions of dollars each year to assure that the insurance remains crappy.

That being said....it is even more scary to hear the short sighted proposals I've heard in the press regarding a "Universal Healthcare Plan". From what I've read, we would be better off just staying like we are.....here is why.

"American Ranks #38 in quality of Healthcare" Not sure if the movie mentoined it.......but if not then let me explain "ranks". When it comes to quality of healthcare, America is by far #1. People come from all over the world to have procedures and life saving treatments done here that could never be done where they are from, and because of that, their lives are saved. BUT....the rank index is a much more basic measure that looks at a limited number...of numbers. It looks at birth rates, it looks at longevity, it looks at the amount of $$ that is spent on each person and the results that gains and some other stuff....then calculates that into a score and ranks the scores accordingly. We do a few things differently in this country.....we try and save babies that should be dead, and try and save failing pregancies. If we performed theraputic abortions and let premies die, then we would actually have a better OB score, but as it stands our efforts to save these babies drives our OB score down, which drives our overall healthcare ranking score down. Add on top of that the amount of $$ we spend on trying to save newborns the size of frogs, and we ruin ourselves in that category. The other sneaky thing is that we live in a country of sloth and gluttony. Americans wear poor health like it's a trendy fashion. Diabetes 2 is already an alarming epidemic and still growing. Heart disease is getting to the point where it's treated like a chronic disease. So.....we live in a nation where people don't live long because they eat like pigs and sit on their butts watching TV.....however, we spend a TON of money trying to keep them alive for years and years. Huge financial investment, but the longevity scores are damned to begin with, so again....we end up with a poor score. In other countries people live healthier more active lives, and when they die, they usually just die, so little $$ is wasted. Those scores are higher, although I sometimes wonder if it's really a healthcare score at all.....it seems more like a # of McDonalds per capita score to me http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

Universal Healthcare exists in much of Europe and in Canada. My uncle was a physician in Canada. He moved to the USA. Universal healthcare seems like an ideal solution, but it's really not "better", just a series of trade offs. Some of the solutions I've heard are the equivilent of this....."Everybody in America deserves to have a car, therefore lets do away with cars and all ride public transit, that way it's fair". Try to imagine the logistics of implementing an efficient public transport system that spanned the entire country and reached every single person.....for free, covered by taxes. It would cost an extreme amount in taxes. So....if you want high quality, it is going to cost, if you just want something, then the quality is going to be compromised, and chances are Boisie, Idaho is going to get screwed. The price of cars will go way up, as would hte price of gas, which would shift more people onto a public transit system that wasn't designed to carry so many. Hopefully you can project the various obstacles that would plauge such a system. Eventually you end up with a set up for CLASSISM, so that you'll have the rich who drive cars with all the opportunities associated with that, and then the poor who are limited to the willingness of the govornment's willingness to expand their public transit system and at the mercy of their price tag. The rich will afford the benefits of life, and the poor will get screwed....it is already the way it is, but sadly that divide will be driven much wider if we adopt a Universal Healthcare plan.

As we have it set up now.....those without insurance go to the ER or to country run hospitals and pay nothing. Those who can afford health insurance pay a lot for it in order to offset the cost of those who do not pay. So in the end the equation usually balances out and the HMO's still make their $$, the hospitals still stay in business and our homeless population can still get access to doctors at any time. We treat the uninsured and homeless for anything from an infection to open heart surgery.....they could never afford the bill, so their fellow insured americans pay it. It is capitalism at it's finest.

So I'll definately see the flim Sicko, because pondering the puzzle of healthcare in America is something I like to do. But I'm not in support of current proposals for a Universal Healthcare Plan becasue all it will do is make our govornment the largest HMO to ever exist, and if you think it's hard to sue an HMO for mismanagement, try sueing our govornment. It is hard to see past the idealized presentation, but in the end these plans will fail. They have failed in many of those European countries, people don't like the system, but they don't have a choice. Where they are successful, citizens are taxed more heavily than we would ever want to imagine.....so if we are willing to give up 50% of our income to taxes, we will have a great system. If the govornment promises minimal taxation to cover costs, then they are either lying about the taxes or lying about the quality they will afford to deliver. BE WARY.

[G I Joe]

Thanks, Doc for your insightful remarks. What may look good on the outside (Universal Health Care) can be totally rotten on the inside-just like an apple. I would love for all people to have health care protection--and a lot of our current system is unfair and stinks. BUT until this new plan is perfected better, the Universal plan also has a lot of horror stories attached to it. As far as "Sicko" is concerned, that is a great title, but applies to Michael Moore more than his movie. As usual, he slants things to get his own personal agenda across, filled with half truths and not including other professionals that have important things to say too. Oh, well, someone (Me) has to have a different opinion on this thread!

[45 solo]

]
"We do a few things differently in this country.....we try and save babies that should be dead, and try and save failing pregancies. If we performed theraputic abortions and let premies die, then we would actually have a better OB score, but as it stands our efforts to save these babies drives our OB score down, which drives our overall healthcare ranking score down. Add on top of that the amount of $$ we spend on trying to save newborns the size of frogs, and we ruin ourselves in that category."
---- DoctorSurferDude

A few years ago a very good friend of mine died because of a needed heart operation. He needed a valve replaced and he didn't have insurance. The reason he didn't have insurance was because the insurance company cancelled his insurance after his first operation. Just after that, a close relative of mine had a premature baby. The doctors and hospital spent $400,000 to save that child. I thought of both of these situations while reading Doc"s post (above). We as a society have some hard choices to make, and it seems to me that the folks who are here contributing to society with families should have more weight in the system. I also think those who are abusing their bodies have to be penalized.

[Boreas]

I think we have to move beyond the concepts of public vs private healthcare and come up with something better. I have worked in the Canadian system and have also received services from it. While not perfect, it is pretty good.

Sadly, some of the same forces that have affected American healthcare, notably the worship of the almighty dollar have had a negative effect on our system. Back in the 90's they cut back on staff, especially nursing staff and started measuring efficiency in terms of bed stays rather than health levels. Now we have a severe nursing shortage. We also have a corporate model of health care in this province. I believe this model is similar to the concepts of HMO's where bureaucrats are measuring efficiency, rather than medical professionals. It seems that sometimes paperwork and procedures are set of for the benefit of the organization not the client/patient. Things aren't as bad here as in HMOs I think, because of the Canada Health Act that makes sure all Canadian citizens receive health care.

I think we could take the best of the American system and the best of the Canadian system and come up with something good. There are also other countries that manage to provide socialized health care very well. We can look at those too.

The thing I think is sad is that the largest, richest country in the world has a huge amount of people who are uninsured. In fact, I think there are more uninsured Americans than the population of Canada if I am not mistaken. I have recently heard of a woman who cannot get chemo, or the appropriate chemo because her insurance does not cover it, and she cannot afford to pay for it herself. That is shameful.

[Naturist Mark]

There are no evils of universal healthcare that are worse than the evil of the present system in America.

John Edwards has a very simple plan. How you get there, and how it is financed is complicated, but the plan is simple. Let every American opt to receive the same healthcare plan that members of Congress enjoy - or allow them to use those dollars to purchase any private insurance/HMO plan they want (most of us have no choice whatsoever). Let the free market flourish.

Frankly, the financing aspect of universal health is seen as too complex. The simple fact is that the people of the United States spend 200% to 300% of the amount that the very best healthcare systems in the rest of the world require to provide far better overall care. We couldn't do worse than we are now.

See Sicko now.

If you hate Michael Moore and don't want him to receive a penny from you, see it for free (http://files.filefront.com/Sickoavi/;7822955;/fileinfo.html) by downloading it from the internet - its allowed.

-Mark

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
John Edwards has a very simple plan. How you get there, and how it is financed is complicated, but the plan is simple. Let every American opt to receive the same healthcare plan that members of Congress enjoy - or allow them to use those dollars to purchase any private insurance/HMO plan they want (most of us have no choice whatsoever). Let the free market flourish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
One thing that I would like to see with the private plans is to do away with the price differentials between what companies and individuals pay.

There could be several plan levels, based upon deductibles and co-insurance levels, but everyone in a given part of the country would pay exactly the same amount. It wouldn't matter whether you got it through work or bought it yourself. Everyone would get the same deal. No more having big companies get a price break while individuals pay exorbitant amounts.

The people with a lot of money to throw at the politicians won't let this happen. They would lose a lot of their clout.

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Still_Boreas:
In fact, I think there are more uninsured Americans than the population of Canada if I am not mistaken. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The latest estimates that I heard were that between 45 and 50 million people in the U.S. do not have medical insurance. That is about 1/6 of the total population.

[Boreas]

45 million is the number I heard. According to Stats Canada, our population is now 32,953,987. So you have more uninsured Americans than the whole population of Canada. Sad.

[Naturist Mark]

Sicko is doing something that Michael Moore hasn't done with his previous films - it is reaching conservatives.

I think this is because the healthcare crisis for average Americans has become so stark that it can no longer be used to divide us between left and right.

Read this account of a showing of Sicko in a so-called 'redneck' enclave in Texas: Sicko Spurs Audiences Into Action (http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Sicko-Spurs-Audiences-Into-Action-5639.html)

-Mark

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
Sicko is doing something that Michael Moore hasn't done with his previous films - it is reaching conservatives.

I think this is because the healthcare crisis for average Americans has become so stark that it can no longer be used to divide us between left and right.

Read this account of a showing of Sicko in a so-called 'redneck' enclave in Texas: Sicko Spurs Audiences Into Action (http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Sicko-Spurs-Audiences-Into-Action-5639.html)

-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There probably aren't very many people who haven't had a run-in with their medical insurance company concerning coverage. Whether it was themselves personally, or a friend or relative, I doubt if anyone thinks that the system doesn't need some repairs.

The idea that your doctor can tell you that you really need a test or procedure done, and then some accountant can overrule a medical decision is ridiculous.

[DoctorSurferDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The national results in international comparisons have often been below the average of developed countries. In OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment 2003, 15 year olds ranked 24th of 38 in mathematics, 19th of 38 in science, 12th of 38 in reading, and 26th of 38 in problem solving. In addition, many business leaders have expressed concerns that the quality of education given in the US system is generally below acceptable standards, and should be adapted in order to conform to the needs of an evolving world. Bill Gates has famously stated that the American high school is "obsolete" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In short....our education system sucks.

We may live on McDonalds in this country, but we are not dumb. The embarrassment is purely due to beauricratic mismanagement....a failure of our govornment to properly invest in what really matters.

Shall we then give our country's healthcare to the same hands which crafted such a failed system?

Our govornment sucks....I trust them with nothing, not even my taxes.

[DoctorSurferDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
Frankly, the financing aspect of universal health is seen as too complex. The simple fact is that the people of the United States spend 200% to 300% of the amount that the very best healthcare systems in the rest of the world require to provide far better overall care. We couldn't do worse than we are now.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

....Lawsuits.

John Edwards is a malpractice attorney who sued and won over $60 million in settlements during his years as a lawyer. He kept about a third of that. He made a career of raising the cap on lawsuits, pushing the envelope and single-handedly is responsible for helping to raise healthcare costs. He specialized in suing obestetricians for things like cerebral palsy and mental retardation....whether or not it was due to any action on the part of the physician (CP and MR most often occur naturally and unpredictably).

He set the standard, and other lawyers have followed suit. The largest settlement I know if is a case in New York that settled for $112 million!

Lawyers like John Edwards have helped to change the face of healthcare. Because of their litigation costs doctors have had to change the way they practice medicine. Birth is a natural process and the preferred method of delivery, but these days about 25-40% of births go to surgical C-section (6% in 1970). The cost difference is enormous....but doctors cannot risk getting sued, so if there is but a whisper of a problem, they head straight to the operating room to avoid a lawsuit.

For a matter of perspective....the state of Florida is lossing obstetricians. In Miami/Dade County, obestetricians have to pay over $300,000 a year for malpractice insurance!! In case you don't know, obstetricians don't make that much.....so they are left with 2 choices, either carry no insurance and arrange life such that they have no assets, or, leave the state.

I'm trained to deliver babies, but I will not include that in my private practice once I finish residency, because I could NEVER afford the malpractice coverage.

John Edwards did a bad bad...bad bad....bad bad bad thing. Bad man. Bad.

When John Edwards talks about healthcare reform....pleaes remember that he is one of the patriarchs that helped to raise healthcare costs. Complete hypocrite.

[Qikdraw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:
....Lawsuits.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Doc, but I have to say this is completely false.

http://democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/108-2-026.html (http://democrats.senate.gov/%7Edpc/pubs/108-2-026.html)

Malpractice is extremely hard to prove, and even successful cases make up only a small percentage.

The real problem is the insurance companies who do not want to help doctors heal a patient by refusing to cover treatment and they also screw with the doctors by raising rates by using the fear of malpractice. The insurance companies just want to take in money and not pay out.

They lie to all of us.

Qikdraw

[jon71]

If he doesn't win the nomination and isn't V.P. I think John Edwards would be the best possible choice for attorney general. There are corporations to whom human life and health mean nothing and the best possible remedy to that is lawsuits, the bigger the better. I wish I could remember more of the specifics but there was an interview Edwards gave during the '04 campaign and he talked about a case where a company ignored a safety flaw in their product because it would have cost money to fix it. A young boy died and John Edwards represented the family. Basically the company lawyers asked him "what'll it take to settle this" and his response was "everything you have". BRAVO!!!! Corporations calculate that it is CHEAPER to let someone (or many someones) die and settle out of court than to spend the money to fix the problem to start with. For cases like that we need to allow suits so big that one wrongful PREVENTABLE death would put someone out of business. No amount of money will bring that boy back but if it's gargantuan it will make other companies seriously reconsider putting a price tag on human life. When there is negligence, and yes malpractice, lawsuits are the solution, not the problem.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For a matter of perspective....the state of Florida is lossing obstetricians. In Miami/Dade County, obestetricians have to pay over $300,000 a year for malpractice insurance!! In case you don't know, obstetricians don't make that much.....so they are left with 2 choices, either carry no insurance and arrange life such that they have no assets, or, leave the state.

I'm trained to deliver babies, but I will not include that in my private practice once I finish residency, because I could NEVER afford the malpractice coverage.

John Edwards did a bad bad...bad bad....bad bad bad thing. Bad man. Bad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with insurance for OB/GYN has little to do with lawsuits. Even states with medical malpractice tort reform (like Florida) have usuriously high rates, while many states without have low rates. This is an insurance company issue that has little or nothing to do with actual litigation.

Medical malpractice was only a significant part of Edward's early career, most notably against a physician who ignored a fetal monitor during labor. Edwards specialty was corporate negligence - companies that put small increases in profit ahead of safety. One of the reasons he was able to attract clients - besides his sterling reputation as a litigator - was his willingness to reduce his fee if an award or settlement wasn't as high as he felt they deserved.

You may hate lawyers, but if you needed one, John Edwards would be your top choice.

None of which has any bearing on universal health insurance.

I favor a single payer system - basically an expansion of Medicare, which leaves doctors, hospitals and clinics in private hands, but cuts out the insurance/HMO industry. Edwards' is a hybrid plan that lets the insurance/HMO industry compete. We'll see.

[45 solo]

Well I saw Sicko yesterday and I felt like the folks in Texas. We need to make changing the healthcare industry priority one in the country. Imagine how much more productive we all could be if we didn't have to worry about our medicines or a surgery we needed but couldn't afford. And I'm talking about folks who HAVE insurance.
We need to have a wholesale cleanout in Washington. I'm talking both parties.
And Doc is right about our education system. How about we take a chunk out of the Pentagon's budget and spend it on free college?

[Boreas]

I agree. A good healthcare system and a good education system are both tools to a truly free society. If we have well educated, healthy citizens then all potentially can be free, and will not succumb to the power tactics of the government.

We do not need to rely on the government for delivery of these programs. Canada has (had?) a system of transfer payments. The federal government transfers funds down to the provinces, and the provinces can transfer down. If the government is the agency collecting taxes, it can provide some of the funding, and the folks at the community level can decide how to best use the money.

Of course, if the citizens are well educated, then those in power cannot continue to abuse their power in the many they often do now. They might resist efforts to properly educate people.

[MJ_KC]

Bluecross/Blueshield tried to deny coverage for a doctor ordered MRI and the denial arrived after the MRI was already done. Part of it had already been paid for by BC/BS so they sent me another letter telling me to ignore the first letter because they had obviously already approved it.

It really sucks that the insurance companies have more say in our medical care than the doctors do.