Evolving Idea of God

[David77]

Dr. Ron Glossop, retired professor of philosophy, Southern Illinois University, gave an outstanding lecture on 12-4-05 regarding the history and concepts of the "Evolving Idea of God", as follows;

http://www.firstuualton.org/Sermon_files/EvolvingIdea_of_God.htm

[David77]

Dr. Ron Glossop, retired professor of philosophy, Southern Illinois University, gave an outstanding lecture on 12-4-05 regarding the history and concepts of the "Evolving Idea of God", as follows;

http://www.firstuualton.org/Sermon_files/EvolvingIdea_of_God.htm

[Rabid_Clam]

Without question God is here. He created all this and much more. There is not a person alive nor one that ever lived that can make any other true statement about God other than he exists.

All we have to rely on is our concepts and theology. All data we have comes from another man who himself is as ignorant as any other person on the real aspects of the Almighty.

We will learn aspects of the Almighty when we enter His kingdom in the life here after. It would not suprise me to find we are but one species of life elsewhere in this universe, or also that we are in but one of many other universes and dimensions.

It was very aptly said many years ago "Who is man that God is mindful of him?"

[Baron Lake]

Here? Ya mean like Mechanicsville? Wow! Who'da thunk it?
b.l.

[Rabid_Clam]

Here is Mechanicsville, Fresno, the moon, anwyere you can imagine. There are those who say there is no God, but then where did all this come from? What created it? All this stuff, the universe and all that resides there in, has to come from some thing or some one. That thing and one is God.

Where ever you are, God is there, and the word 'here' is in the word 'there'.

[Baron Lake]

The moon? What's he doing up there? Maybe setting up a hospitality suite for the "real" NASA flights. (We all KNOW the ones we saw on TV were faked in Arizona or Utah or somplace.) I guess it (the moon not utah) would be a quiet place to sit and contemplate ones navel if one had a navel. Ya think God has ...? Oh nevermind.
b.l.
BTW, as to your question about what created God...oh wait that was "all this". All what? Arn't we really just the dream creation of the Giant Sleeping Flea who could awaken at any moment by the scratching of the Giant Itchy Dog? Dog?!! Hey!, that's goD spelled backwards. Might be on to something here (there and everywhere).

[Rabid_Clam]

There is the insomniac dyslexic athiest who stays up all night wondering if there is a Dog.

But you ask about the moon and what is God doing up there? Well, God is everywhere. There is no up or down for Him, The Moon is 'up' to us from our view point but for God it is just one of several google to the google + power of places and he keeps full track of each and evey one of then as well as all live there on, if any.

You can poke fun of God, but He has YOU right where he wants you and you can't get out! Remember, some day you will die, and that is when you are schedulled to meet Him face to face. and there will be plenty of time for you as well as all the others where in His environment time does not function as it does here.

[WNYjoe17]

Mechanicsville,
You are very strong in your beliefs. Congratulations.

But how do you explain other gods, other religions, and different beleifs from what you profess?

And how do you treat them?

Joe

[Rabid_Clam]

Your statement infers that there are in fact other gods. There are none. THere are those who beleive in that but I don't. There is but one God.

There are many other religions. They all are just as viable as what I beleive in. THere are no specific directions as to how to worship or how to beleive except you must beleive fully from your mind and heart. What religion is that? There are religions that explain in detail what to beleive and what not to. None are correct and none are wrong.

The whole thing boils down to the individual, not the faith they follow. Is what is within you as a person. And that is what you need to deal with, not the faith you may follow.

The Jews were the chosen people, but Judiasm is not the chosen religion! The Jews were chosen where they subscribed to and beleived in one God and one only. The Egyptians had many gods and they worshiped many including each other. That most likely is why the Jews were chosen. It was the only one God fearing people on the planet at the time. Now there are many. I expect any God fearing person is also a chosen person.

I simply do not follow other faiths. I follow what is in my heart and what is what I find to be most real. The bible is a great book, but is full of contradictions, killings, and many books were written by the same person but givne authorship to others. The translations from original writings to the language of today is questionable in many key points so the true intent of meaning is not what we today see.

FOr instance, Noah was in the flood for 40 days, 40 nights. Moses wandered in the desert for 40 years. Paul wandered in the desert for 40 years. What of ALi Baba and his 40 thieves? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. That number 40 is a crude mis translation from the word MANY. Just one point of 40 that are incorrect in the bible from translation errors. After all, that entire book was written by man, and man is submect to error. He makes mistakes you know.

And so on we go. Our objective on this planet, our one way ticket is to learn. What we learn here is the foundation for the new beginning to happen when we die.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
FOr instance, Noah was in the flood for 40 days, 40 nights. Moses wandered in the desert for 40 years. Paul wandered in the desert for 40 years. What of ALi Baba and his 40 thieves? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. That number 40 is a crude mis translation from the word MANY. Just one point of 40 that are incorrect in the bible from translation errors. After all, that entire book was written by man, and man is submect to error. He makes mistakes you know.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<center>Summary of Biblical Accounts of the Great Flood:</center>

40 days, length of flood (v7:17)
47 days, dove discovers land (v8:10-11)
150 days, waters were abated (v8:3)
150 days, ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat (v8:4)
253 days, to see tops of mountains (v8:5)
314 days, waters dried up (v8:13)
370 days, earth dried (v8:14)
After reexamining the account in Genesis, we are left with even more confusion and contradictions than when we began.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
Without question God is here. He created all this and much more. There is not a person alive nor one that ever lived that can make any other true statement about God other than he exists.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that were true there would be no atheists. There are lots of questions about the existence of a diety.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Egyptians had many gods and they worshiped many including each other. That most likely is why the Jews were chosen. It was the only one God fearing people on the planet at the time. Now there are many. I expect any God fearing person is also a chosen person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<center>Egyption Monotheism</c>
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/tut/tut12.htm

[puffledud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Sermon for 4 December 2005, 1st Unitarian Church of Alton, Illinois


THE EVOLVING IDEA OF GOD

Ronald J. Glossop </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This brings back memories. I used to live in St. Louis and go over to Alton and bird watch along the locks. But I'm off the topic.

There is a wonderful book by Karen Armstrong entitled, "A History of God" which is an intellectually challenging book according to one of it's reviewers. I would recommend it to anyone who wants an understanding of how the concept of God has been shaped and altered through the ages.

However, to attempt to answer the question "But how do you explain other gods, other religions, and different beleifs from what you profess?" In "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" John Paul II wrote, "Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people's hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death; judgment... and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence."

So, where does that leave us? One size, obviously, does not fit all. We are all individuals and our lives have been fashioned through an assortment of experiences. So, we will seek out a belief system that conforms to our experiences, that comforts and nourishes our spiritual self and provides a compass for our current and future behavior.

There is a wonderful line in the Kevin Costner Robin Hood film with Morgan Freeman who plays his arabic companion. A child asks him why he is different (can't remember the exact question). But, he replies, "Allah delights in diversity". I don't think it is as important what we believe so much as we have a "belief". When Jesus was at the well with the Samaritan woman he remarked that the true worshipers of God were those who worship him in Spirit and truth. What is "Spirit and truth"? Some, seem to know what it is for them and express it. Others, may have a different view and may not express it as loudly. I believe that all are valid. This then brings me back to Rabid Clam's comment: "The whole thing boils down to the individual, not the faith they follow. I(t)'s what is within you as a person. And that is what you ned to deal with,"

Amen.

Dave

[Rabid_Clam]

Someone said that my philosophy would preculude athiests.

In fact, we are here to learn. We came from nothing but the elements of this planet we are on that have been formed by life living thereon.

Some how by the miricle of reproduction a new and seperate life begins from woman and man. This new live, as how we all began, is free to be like the animals or to learn. There is but one thing that seperates us from the animals and that is our ability and choosing to beleive in God.

Those who do not beleive will expire as the animals do. The rest will live the next life in the Kingdon of God for all eternity in a new land.

This new land is not in the universe we know or the void around it. It is not even in the same dimension! We don' have the answers on this, but they will be explained in the next life. We are not to complicate our existance with notions of the next other than we need to fully and honestly beleive in Him and be kind to each other. We have rules to follow, they are very simple but we need to self enforce them to our own behavior and not judge others where we are so far from perfect ourselves. Take care of each other, do not cause another to flounder, but also you need to protect your own self and that is not limited to the taking of another life. That is not murder but to do so for want and greed IS.

Again, we have so few clues but our job here in this life is to learn and culture ourselves into a kind and generous person.

Ask of your self "Am I a kind and generous person? And do I truly and honestly beleive in the power and existence of God Almighty?"

You may be asked this again when there is but only one other in your presence and only that one for an eternity or more.

[Conor B]

"But the basic fact is that, yes, we are deeply
disposed to broadcast our own subjectivity onto the world. The biblical God is jealous, angry--deplorably neurotic, in fact. And the Greek gods were like teenagers left alone in their parents' house for the weekend. The fact that we may be predisposed to conceive of the universe in anthropomorphic
terms does not mean that we are condemned to do so, however."

From a CNBC interview 'The Mortal Dangers of Religious Faith' with Sam Harris author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason.

the interview is a good read and timely given the discussion:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/542154/002-2821802-3086416

[Conor B]

a little more:

"The kind of intolerance of faith that I am advocating in my book is not the intolerance that gave us the gulag. It is conversational intolerance.

When people make outlandish claims, without evidence, we stop listening to them--except on matters of faith. I am arguing that we can no
longer afford to give faith a pass in this way.

Bad beliefs should be criticized wherever
they appear in our discourse--in physics, in medicine, and on matters of ethics and spirituality as well. The President of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. Now, if
he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a
hairdryer makes the claim more ludicrous or more offensive."

[Bob S.]

Clam:"Your statement infers that there are in fact other gods. There are none. THere are those who beleive in that but I don't. There is but one God."

Christians believe in the Holy Trinity so that implies that G*d can be three different parts of the same whole.

If G*d is omnipotent, all knowing, all powerful, do you think He cannot be more than one entity? Can He not have more than one name?

Bob S.

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by puffledud:
[QUOTE]
There is a wonderful book by Karen Armstrong entitled, "A History of God" which is an intellectually challenging book according to one of it's reviewers. I would recommend it to anyone who wants an understanding of how the concept of God has been shaped and altered through the ages. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<center><font color= "purple"><u>Two More References on the Development of Concept of God</u></font></center>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Book</span> entitled "God, A Biography," by Jack Miles.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679743685/ref=ase_jac...ionCode=jackmiles-20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679743685/ref=ase_jackmiles-20/002-3685748-7207233?s=books&amp;v=glance&amp;n=283155&amp;tagActionCode=ja ckmiles-20)

<span class="ev_code_RED">DVD</span> from History Channel, "A History of God."
http://www.bestprices.com/cgi-bin/vlink/733961719284IE?source=froogle

[Rabid_Clam]

Bob S., You are correct and you are wrong. Actually no man knows the answer as to exactly what God is or how He is represented. We simply don't know! We can only guess and theorize thus theology. We don't know!

The Almighty goes by many names, again, we don't know His name! Or even if He has one!

We are only one small level above animals. We have a very long way to go, this existance is only a beginning for us to start from. Make it good, we get only one ticket for our act of learning.

[Bob S.]

Clam, I made only one statement. That was the one about the Trinity so I will assume that is where I am both correct and wrong.

My second paregraph was asking quetsions. You cannot be correct or wrong in asking questions.

Clam:"There is not a person alive nor one that ever lived that can make any other true statement about God other than he exists."

Just to play into the part of your message that cyndiann commented on, by yout own admission, the true nature of G*d is unknown and will remain so to all living beings. That leads to the question of whether G*d is truly immortal, omnipotent, or even a deity.

In the Star Trek franchise, the crews encountered many beings that were seemingly godlike. There were Q and the Prophets (as well as the Pa'raiths--the anti-Prophets) to name a two. These beings were seen not as gods, but as alien beings although the Bajorans saw the Prophets as gods.

So what exactly are gods? Are they a race of alien beings with extraordinary powers? Are they interdimensional beings? Are they just more evolved forms of life?

Looking at G*d in a purely scientific way, removing all religious aspects of Him, can create a much different version of a deity than the religious version.

Bob S.

[Rabid_Clam]

For the lack of understanding and our ignorance we project super powers into other beings both real and surreal. Some of these beings are man like and some are simply objects.

Where we do not know the true state of being that God is, we bend to our mind's fantisys. Over all there is but only one God who created all that we are, all that we see.

We are not to know the answer for some reason, and that again is truly a device of God,not ours. In time, possibly, we will learn the answer. It may not be until the life hereafter that happens but He will tell us what He wants us to know. For now, we have far much more to deal with than that. And we are doing a horrible job at it, as a species.

[Baron Lake]

Ya don't suppose ignorance of (or denial of) an objective universe and reliance upon myth and superstition has anything to do with this horrible job we'er doing do Ya?
b.l.

[Baron Lake]

BTW BobS,
when looking at God in a "scientific" way, do we use a telescope or microscope?
b.l.
(maybe we would be better off using one of those 'scopes found in a proctologist's office)

[Stevel]

I find that to be a very good point stated earlier about "Mr. Bush Talking to god on his knees, he is seen as a normal person" But if he were to tell people god callled him on his cell phone hed be committed.. Why is that? God cant comprehend the use of a telephone? but he can beam his thoughts into your head from you praying?

In my oppion relegion was created by man to control man, kings/rulers have brought relegion and made it to fit there needs. From the greek gods "using posidieon to control the sea trade" to the roman gods and christian gods to control peace, and order.. Or as with the christian god which has changed and evoled over the centries to be what man wants it to be.. Rather it was the king of england createing his own church/christain god so he could get a divorce or the pope in Rome using msg's from god saying they should slaughter 100k muslims to conquer the holy city..

Whatever the case may be relegion and god is a manmade theory. As with many man made theories until they are proved they are still considerd theories.. You mention ealier i believe it was (clam) that noone can disprove god.. but in the same sense noone can proove it either, Now I can prove the earth is round, that water is wet, that the air in my city is sometimes dirty. SO that makes it real, and not disproveable(word? you get what i mean) But god is far from disproveable(again word??) I can prove that no matter how much a team prays they still may lose.. NO matter how much a mother preys her child still may die... And no matter how much I prey the world will never be fully acceptable of nudisam and get off his high hoarse http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


(PS: I am not trying to offend anyone to each his own, believe whom or what you must i will not judge. this is my oppion)

[Rabid_Clam]

God does not use a cell phone because he doesn't use money so there is no plan available for that.

We can prove God is here. Just look in the mirror. You would not exist, that mirror would not exist, the floor you stand on would not exist where He made all the materials that procuce all these things as well as other life that feeds and grows on it.

God is always here around you, he is at the same time on the opposite side of this universe, he is beyond the limits of our universe where He made all of it and far much more that we cannot see, prove, or use.

Again, as humans we are ignorant, with out answers to just about everything. We think we are so advanced, technologically advanced, but 99% of what we know now is discovered and learned within the last century, and we have only begun. We have learned but only the very first small drop of knowledge in the sea of all that there is to learn.

God created that sea. He creates all there is and more. To doubt that is alike to a flea crawling up a whales tail with rape on its mind!


Do as you wish, think as you will. The whole story of your life is yours to write. You are the captain of your life and in the end no one but you will stand to explain.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
God does not use a cell phone because he doesn't use money so there is no plan available for that.
... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point! I can imagine the cell phone charges for calls across the space-time continuum would completely outrageous!

[David77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He made all of it and far much more that we cannot see, prove, or use. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We humans think in terms of everything being "made". It seems that we are almost incapable of the idea of anything not being made (by a craftsman?).

If that is the case, the question is, "Who made God?"

[Conor B]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Again, as humans we are ignorant, with out answers to just about everything. We think we are so advanced, technologically advanced, but 99% of what we know now is discovered and learned within the last century, and we have only begun. We have learned but only the very first small drop of knowledge in the sea of all that there is to learn. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I all due respect, this is in fact one of my fave reasons for not believing in a god/intelligent designer. All that we have learned only shows that all things can in fact be learned and that falling back "God" to explain the unexplainable is just bad thinking and even worse history. Remember when mental illness was posession? When people prayed for rain? Offered up sacrifices for a good crop? thought the universe revolved around the earth? thought the earth was flat? Thought we couldn't go to the moon? When man did not know about atoms? quarks? cellular technology.

There are no overly-complex systems; just complex systems we have yet to understand.

And science is not a religion. Don't get me started....

Clam your beliefs and interpretations are quite nice and affirming of our connection with each other and this mortal coil. But they really don't support a 'proof' of god.

[nacktman]

Actually what we know has been reclaimed from far more ancient sources than "god" and 99% of what we know has come in the last 500 years since we threw off the yolk of "god" and began to reuse our brains after the millinea or so of suppression in the name of "god".

More and more science is finding that most of "our modern inventions" are just rediscoveries of what was commonplace in ancient times before the suppression of knowledge and learning.

Just imagine where we would be if we had not lost a 1000 years to supersition.

[Conor B]

But...Let it not be said that I'm closed minded...
Bush appointed the man who wrote this:

....Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on I(ntelligent) D(esign), who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the Board's decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

[Stevel]

clam i respectfully have to disagree, but thank you for shareing your beliefs and hope it helps you live a better life... I agree with conor when he says "your beliefs are not proof"

nacktman makes a great point, one of the most relegious times of human life was during the dark ages, when people all over fought for the cross or the crescent, when relegion and god ruled the world.. When the Holy Roman Empire controlled the world under god... and during that time all the advancements made by the previous "Roman Empire" were destroyed and forgotten.. All arts, science, math were outlawed and forgot about.. Everyone only answerd to god.. and what happend? the world went backwards.. and into chaos.. Untill the world put god on a back burner so to speak did we get where we are today, sure god is pushed in our lives everyday but no more is he the law of the world. Since then end of the dark ages, the crusades, we have made such great advancements from how we treat people, to how we accept the people who are differnt... and our technology that we have learned.. That have a mental illness is not a punishment from god, or an "iffliction" it is genetics. and it doesnt pick an choose...

and if it is god how can he choose a 8 year old boy to die of cancer, or any other person who has done no sin..

[Bob S.]

Clam:"God does not use a cell phone because he doesn't use money so there is no plan available for that."

G*d is powerless because he has no money? If G*d wanted to contact someone, he could use any means of transmission. What is it about a cell phone that makes it unworthy of G*d using it?

Anything that man has made is a byproduct of G*d. Man made bricks so G*d had a hand in making bricks. Man made computers so G*d had a hand in making computers. I would imagine cell phones are an easy contraption to tap into for a being so omnipotent and omnipresent.

Bob S.

[nacktman]

Clam take care it seems you have riled the humorless. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:

We can prove God is here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, let me know when you are going to post that proof.

[missCarol]

Yes, by all means do let us know when you are going to post proof.

[Baron Lake]

God had a "hand" in making computers huh Bob? And all this time I've been blaming Microsoft for the bugs. Maybe Gates isn't the "Anti"-Christ after all.

[ncnudlady]

God had a hand in creating everything didn't he?
Then he invented war, hate, prejudice, fear, lust, things I always thought of as Human creations.
That must mean God is Human!
Eureka, I have just figured out the cosmos and the order in which it functions!!!!!

[Rabid_Clam]

Someone wanted to know how I can prove God exists. Just look around at you. He created all you see, including what you see in the mirror. The fact you can stand on this planet is because of Him, He created gravity! Space is so huge our imaginations cannot comprehend the distances in our universe, but yet there is a void outside that which may contain countless other universes and even other voids. And then there are other dimentions! And all of that is created by God.

And someond asked who Created God ! Excellent question! Is one we can never answer but may at some point be given that answer. I don't expect that before 5 PM today though.

[PascoDoug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rabid_Clam:
Someone wanted to know how I can prove God exists. Just look around at you. He created all you see, including what you see in the mirror. The fact you can stand on this planet is because of Him, He created gravity! ....And all of that is created by God. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately all that you're saying above proves is that we, and everything we see, gravity, the universe, etc exist.

And even that those actually exist is sometimes questionable. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nothing you cited proves the existence of a supreme being.

And no, I am not an atheist.

[nacktman]

Clam, man created god as a primitive device for trying to explain what he did not understand yet.

[David77]

Personally, I possibly could only accept an abstract definition of "god". God as being - love, beauty, reason and all the good attributes of life, as I feel nothing else would be worthy of my reverence, devotion, respect.

One philosopher or theologian stated that your god is whatever your personal highest values are. Thus, by this reasoning, communism could be some person's god.

One person whom I know, said that since this is not an orthodox, dictionary definition of god, that it is not a valid use of the word "god".

However, I give no credence to an anthropomorphic "Suprene Being" - a "He" or "She" who can talk to you, and grant you favors.

[Bob S.]

nacktman:"Clam take care it seems you have riled the humorless."

Not humorless, just argumentative at times. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CLam:"Someone wanted to know how I can prove God exists."

You can't prove it. Theologic faith and factual knowledge are two different spheres of thought. You can prove anything that is provable (the factual knowledge). But you can't prove theologic faith. It must be revealed to someone from within.

ncnudelady:"God had a hand in creating everything didn't he?
Then he invented war, hate, prejudice, fear, lust, things I always thought of as Human creations."

All of those things are creations of man. But since man is a creation of G*d, all of man's creations are a generation removed from G*d.

Of course, looking at your list nc, I would have to say that only war and lust are creations of man. The others are creations of G*d.

Bob S.

[Rabid_Clam]

God created all those things listed above. He favors only some of those things, but all things are still available for us and is our decision as to what to do or how to handle it. Is how we learn and demonstrate our demeanor by which He shall judge us in the end. He created the decision but the one you choose to adopt is yours and yours alone. He gave you that and is up to you to steer yourself right or wrong.

Is what is inside you that will survive, or not.

[hm0504]

I would agree that God created the primordial elements. However, I also think She created a Universe that allows a certain degree of randomness and free will. In such a Universe, sentient beings will experience both the good and the bad, and be able to make choices good and bad.

Therefore, I do not see God as creating evil per se. From what I can tell, a large percentage of human suffering is caused by humans themselves.

[usmc1]

Alas, welcome to the human condition. As far as we can tell, we are the only living thing on this planet that has sense of its own future death.

That and as prey we once huddled around fires as the storms raging outside brought about feelings of dread and awe and from that grew our sense of external supernatural forces working in our lives.

Eventually various cultures and civilizations have codified these early feeling and fears into dogmas, codes, rituals and the like. Upon examination, because later religions built on previous and borrowed from other existing parallel notions, there is just not a whole lot of difference between any of them. Only in how individuals and groups interpret them.

The end result of virtually all of them is to offer up some sort of wondefully sentient after-life-- that and to stave off the various ghoulies of life on a planet that can get damn hostile at times.

The deists will tell you that that which we call God may have created things but doesn't dabble in human affairs.

The theists believe that that which we call God is personally knowable.

Generally formal religions with creeds and dogmas exploit the human condition, offering as a bribe an after life if one follows the rules while demanding contributions in order to perpetuate the "faith". For me that sums up religion. Not spirituality or shared spirituality.

But, can God be ascertained or known?

I think it depends. There is a lot of empirical evidence that prayer and meditation leads one to a more serene life. If God is sought, God can be found--but, the trick is the qualifier of what one means by God...

There are those, the Jesuits for certain, who can argue forcefully, philosophically and meta-physical about uncaused cause and order in the universe. The hand of God at work is in evidence they say.

If one explores string theory--which really does explain every thing--one can easily come to the conclusion that God is All and we as individuals are each part of the Allness, separate but connected in the Allness of everything.

We do seem to be hard-wired with a yearning for some sort of spiritual completeness, and regardless the name you put on it, there seems to be philosophical and meta-physical evidence of a creative force--whether or not that force is aware of us, or cares, becomes a matter of faith and personal belief. Accessabilty is a whole other arguement.

Essentially, afer all is said and done, for an anology, I tend to regard that which we call God as the ocean with many, many, different spiritual rivers and tributaries leading to It. But the ocean is wide and deep and accepts all those rivers pouring into it.

The problems, for me, start when religon overtakes spirituality and dogma and creed push aside deeds and works and postures as the only true path--or else! And then conjures up a bunch of supernatural mubo-jumbo in support of its claims.

That is ridiculous--evidence the Christians and Muslims, each claiming they have the only true path to God/Allah. And even within each of these religious cults there are sects at war with each other on the proper path.

Boy howdie, my old aunt Nell would call that pretty silly.

[Rabid_Clam]

As a species we create religions. As individuals we have religion. That within us as individuals may or may not coincide and accomodate with a particular group religion of various shades of grey.

If you do a very indepth interview of each and every point in a religion a person alligns with you will find there are shades of grey in one or more points, again all in the spectrum of grey shades.

The bottom line is that which we beleive is within us and we seem to gravitate towards the religion that most conforms to our internal individual beleifs.

Yet we as an individual and as a group of any number from two to two trillion simply do not know what is correct. We can only beleive what we judge is correct but that is subject to change, in shades of greay also.

There was a time when the Jews were the chosen people. But never was the Jewish religion made the chosen route.

If each and every person were placed totally alone on an island forever, what religion would they adopt? In that case, over time, the real and true religion of that individual would evolve. When that had evolved in a number of people, it would be interesting to see how many were so alike that they would form a 'religion' !