school showers

[nudeonLI]

There is a lot of discussion on another part of this forum about why students no longer take showers after gym class or sports. I thought I would swing this topic over to this area to get feedback from the younger set. Beside the fact that there might not be enough time after gym class, why don't students take showers in school anymore? Are they embarassed by there own body image? Are they worried that someone may make fun of them if they don't have the perfect body? Do they think that people might think they are gay if they are nude in the presence of members of the same sex? Are they afraid that someone who is gay might make a pass at them? Is it all of these reasons or is there something that has not been mentioned?

[nudeonLI]

There is a lot of discussion on another part of this forum about why students no longer take showers after gym class or sports. I thought I would swing this topic over to this area to get feedback from the younger set. Beside the fact that there might not be enough time after gym class, why don't students take showers in school anymore? Are they embarassed by there own body image? Are they worried that someone may make fun of them if they don't have the perfect body? Do they think that people might think they are gay if they are nude in the presence of members of the same sex? Are they afraid that someone who is gay might make a pass at them? Is it all of these reasons or is there something that has not been mentioned?

[REDCHIK]

I think alot of those reasons do have an effect. When I was in school it was a matter of fear mostly. Fear of being judged, starred at. The question of the P.E. teachers sexual prefrence, always played a role also. In one school I attended, you would have had the crap beat out of you if you took a shower. In another, the sparce few who showered, didn't seem to get any abnormal attention. I also remember the ongoing myth that the boys had some sort of power to peek in, although we all knew it wasn't true, if you got naked, it obviously ment that you wanted to be seen, thus turning you into a slut, freak, lesbian, pervert and any other name they may have for you, aside from just the general teasing of body hair, breast size and body fat.
Under those conditions, who would want to shower? It's impossible enough to avoid critics, and just plain ol' jerks at school as it is. Cake on the deoderant, and wait till 3:00, or don't move a muscle during gym, and suffer the "F".
Myself, the clean freak fanatic, was dubbed the lesbian, slut, freak. But it was ok by me, cause I didn't stink.=)

[Dan and Janette]

When I was in HS, (I'm 46), showering was still expected among all who took Phys ed. A lack of personal hygiene was definitely a bigger taboo than any sense of false modesty. Sure, the inevitable teasing took place over body hair, who had the biggest/smallest penis etc., but IMO it helped toughen us for larger challenges the world would throw at us later on. Excessive teasing isn't right, but for goodness sake, if you try and remove every single potential source out there for hurt feelings you'll NEVER learn to cope in life.

[REDCHIK]

I do agree w/ Dan & Janette, kids need the contravercy/diversity, and what not to mature and be prepared for life, that's what public school is for. Unfortunatly most students would rather do whatever it takes in order not to get the abusive attention. It's so stinkin' important to be popular. I see it being more likely a teenager stripping down in front of their peers in the classroom for the roaring attention, than in the locker room. It's clear we have entered the ME generation, some will try naturism BECAUSE it's the strange thing to do, rather than generations before who try things because the prom queen did it.
But back to the subject, 10 years ago in Jr High, showers were banned due to violence between students in my school. Why it was strange to shower in front of one another, but accepted to pick a fight buck naked, is beyond me.

[Dan and Janette]

Redchik....
Do you think the ever present threat of lawsuits are another reason schools are banning communal showers? I can just picture ambulance chasers lining up to sue whenever a charge of teasing, bullying or sexual harrassment is made involving school showers.
Sometimes I think we're going to litigate ourselves right out of existance.

[P & C]

BINGO!

I think the entire shower issue is borne out of 1) the fear of litigation and 2) the fact that we as a society no longer respond to 'strong arm authority' type rules. "Line up and take your medicine" has been replaced by "question authority" - which in many ways is a good thing, and has resulted in some very positive trends in education. (I'm a teacher - I think I can say that.)

As far as eliminating mandatory showers having a negative impact on nudism - I think it might be the other way around. Creating a forced situation that makes people extremely uncomfortable around their peers seems more likely to me to turn them off to communal nudity for the rest of their lives.

Paul

[Croydon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dan and Janette:
Redchik....
Do you think the ever present threat of lawsuits are another reason schools are banning communal showers? I can just picture ambulance chasers lining up to sue whenever a charge of teasing, bullying or sexual harrassment is made involving school showers.
Sometimes I think we're going to litigate ourselves right out of existance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, the state of our schools, especially public schools, are catastrophic. Today, teasing has gone above and beyond what is considered as "just regular teasing." Kids are being VIOLENTLY teased and bullied while teachers and principals look the other way. It is time for parents to put an end to this and if litigation are the way to go to force schools to make a change, then I am all for it.

I sympathize with kids who get teased a lot. I have been there and believe me, it is an emotional roller coaster. I attended an all boys prepatory high school where I was 1 out of 14 African American students out of 114 white students. This was a problem because it was obvious that I wasn't in the school on some sports scholarship but because I was a high achieving student. Every day for four years, I was harassed and called names. For four years I had to endure racial harassment like "****** you are stupid, niggger you don't belong here, ****** you'll never get ahead, ****** I am better than you, ****** you are only here because you are black. Believe me, such teasing can be very hard on a kid.

It is a long time since you guys have been in school and teasing back then may have been innocent but today, it is not so innocent.

[REDCHIK]

Ok, lawsuit happy people are going to be the end of society as we know it. I really think it's why people are afraid of everything, everyone, and why nobody trusts anybody anymore. "Don't let the people next door borrow that cup of sugar, it might have a bug in it, or maybe they are diabetic; here make them sign this first."
My best friend was sexually harrassed by the P.E. staff, even after showering was banned, that was 10 years ago, and it's still in court. The next thing you know, they'll ban gym altogether, just in case!
Not that any of this is relevant anyways. Parents complained about their children having to shower in front of their peers, so the school comlied, and took it away. Then the parents turned around and complained that the children came home dirty now!
The bottom line is that people thrive on chaos,disorder and politics. No matter what you give or take away from the public, they will find a way to complain and hate you for it. Sad, isn't it?

[Rex]

The present lawsuit situation is not of my making, but, like everyone else, I'm stuck with it.
Well, if you're stuck with a situation, and you can't alter it, then don't just complain about it, use it to your advantage.
I used the threat of lawsuits as part of a nude bathing campaign, and 2 govt depts, 2 city councils, and a govt minister backed off, and the police refused to get involved.
So my wife and I swam nude, on a non-nude beach, it was widely reported in the media, and we were left alone.

[REDCHIK]

Who just jumped off a bridge? If the water's warm maybe I'll join U. There are much better ways to get what you want without threatening people. There is much more honor in fighting for what is important to you. I do realize sometimes a lawsuit is the only way to be heard, but good heavens people!I'm not saying that I'm going to run to the local high school and hancuff myself naked to the lockeroom showers, but I don't intend on suing the school district either.

[Rex]

It's a marketing tactic.

[REDCHIK]

So are human values, but apparently they are no longer at the top of the list

[Rex]

We're on the same team, REDCHIK.
If you and I were socialising together, or doing business, you would find no fault with my conduct, or my ethics.
But look at the way nudists are generally treated.
Look at what is happening, right now, in Virginia.
Many good nudists are doing their best to counter the injustice, the ignorance, the stupidity, but, for the most part, where is it getting them?
For most of the decision makers, human values aren't on the top of the list for nudists, they're not even on the list.
We are generally treated like the school bully treats the perceived weaklings. The only way to save yourself from the school bully, is to kick his ***.
And, as he's more powerful than you are, you've got to figure out a way of doing it.
I never go out of my way to attack anyone, but, if I'm attacked, then I defend myself in the most forceful manner, appropriate to the situation, that I can devise.
But I'm not attacking you, or anyone else on this forum.
We may have different ways of looking at things, but we all have similar objectives.
We're all on the same team!

[MikeJB]

I really dont care if someone would insult me or harass me about how my body looks in a shower, if they dont like it then they gotta deal with seeing it or get the hell outta the shower, those are their two options. I dont let people bug me about stupid things like that and no kid should, if people bully them, these kids oughta just tell em they dont care and tell em to get lost or let the teachers know that these idiots are going around causing trouble and that there is no excuse for this and if the teachers dont do anything then the parents oughta complain. There is simply no excuse for bullying and violence in schools and the excuse that teachers cannot do anything about it is a bunch of crap, basically these morons are telling me that these teachers are imcompetent and have no control over students that they should have COMPLETE control over. If these teachers gotta work their asses off double time to see that the rules at schools are upheld then thats something they gotta do and if they are not willing to do this then parents should demand that they be replaced with someone who will. Parents expect their kids to be able to enter a peaceful friendly learning environment as free of harassment and violence as possible and they expect nothing less than this and if schools cant provide this then theyve gotta problem they need to solve QUICK!

[REDCHIK]

Let me know the next time U go to a PTA meeting. 'Cause if you have the guts to say that to a comittee, I don't want to be there. Yes it seems that your reasoning should be the simple answer. But you are also putting trust in parents to be smart and use good judgement. If you think about it you will realize that the parents w/ the good sense, have no part of the PTA, because they will NEVER win with these people who only dreamed of being polatitians and couldn't be because they got busted doing dope in high school.

The teachers are mostly good people who honestly want these children to have the best learning experience out of their time in public school. The " administrative staff" is the real problem here. Teachers aren't allowed to punish or repremand their students anymore. They have ZERO power. They have to manage helping as many kids learn the daily ciriculum, those few students who refuse or distract, are no longer placed in the corner, or lose recess, NO WAY, if the teacher did that, gaurenteed, gone by friday!

Respect the teachers, hate the "staff".

[Bryant Rudy]

Wow, this is new to me as seen as being my first post. So anywho... This is one that I have to comment on since I shower in school. People dub me as homo/bisexual and to tell you the truth, I really don't care what they say. I'm as straight as an I-Beam. I have been harrased about it but there are many others in my school that shower in school. I came into the world nude and I'll be damned if I don't die nude.

[florida-david]

redchik - i think you are off base in your hate the staff motto - it is the idiot students (And their parents who do not care) that disrupt the class that are causing all the problems. the school districts have such a hard time placating everyone, when in reality they should kick the trouble makers out of school so good kids can learn without distraction. i am so tired of my elementary age kids having to write rules because a few kids were acting up and so the whole class got in trouble. some of the trouble makers have failed the fifth grade at least once, why don't they just boot these kids out to a special school?? as for the PTA, maybe you have not been to a PTA meeting but these people work their butts off to help the school. since in florida the old folks vote against anything to do with extra funding for schools, the PTA finds private funding for LOTS of things the schools simply can not afford. we even do the landscaping improvements at the school since there is no $$ for it. but its easy to blame the PTA and the teachers (who get paid less than garbage men)?! i think the public education system has bigger problems than school showers being optional or not. the truth is the kids are running the schools, not the teachers or the "staff" and this is why they invented private school, so kids could pay to learn without distraction.

[REDCHIK]

Ever hear the saying,"Leave N.Y. before it makes you hard, and CA before it makes you soft"?

As a Californian, let me say... agrivatingly TRUE.

Let me make it clear that I am not attacking the PTA. I know the org DOES do alot for the school system. I also know how petty, trivial and spiteful many members can be, at least in my area.

It's seems to may that everyone here expects to get their way, and when they do not, they throw an absolute tantrum. IE: "Your kid stared at my kid in the shower" vs "Your kid should have expected it as soon as he/she got naked." When mature people would resolve that one's children may shower if they desire, while the offended child should be reasoned w/ not to stare. Instead we get,"That does it, no more public showers". It doesn't solve the problem on a personal level, rather administration says pull the problem from the root.
In my local high school, a qualified art teacher could not be found for the 2001 school year. Instead of using a sub, or outsourcing, the entire arts program was dropped, inlcluding band, choir and drama. Solution? No. More money for the football team? Yes.

[florida-david]

redchik - you are awesome. it seems there is always money for sports, but never for the arts!!! in florida, many elementary schools have art on a cart, travelling between classrooms since they need the art classroom for regular classes. i believe that there is no simple cure for what ails the american school system. it seems that the school shower situation is just another example of our society not knowing how to deal with problems, except for "quick" fixes....

[FLslimguy]

As someone who grew up with it being normal to shower after you sweat and stink in PE, I will agree with David that the kids (and all of the peer-pressure at being "accepted") today makes the indians control the chiefs. The kids control their parents and the students control the school board. I work with the local school system and find that the focus of the school board and the teachers these days is to simply try to keep bombs and guns out of class. The question of school showering gets shelved waaaay back.

While I find it utterly silly that a student would NOT shower rather than reek, it will come back around again...some day someone will wake up and say "You know, maybe we should put showers in the school so students can clean up after PE.."

The subject of no money for art teachers or art class is a totally new subject...and one close to my heart. The concepts of art and drawing and comprehension of structure is one of the most elementary basics that a kid should know about. Everything becomes more clear when you understand structure. My lifelong profession was exposed to me in kindergarten! I wonder if my school showering converted me into nudism...

[Trailscout]

I read in the Atlanta newspaper that Georgia elementary and high schools don't have enough money, so they are going to cut back on history classes. They propose eliminating US. history before 1865, eliminate all mention of the Revolution, Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and so on. They also don't have enough in the budget for ancient history, so the kids will just have to pick that up in college or at the public library on their own time.

Nevermind that the average graduate of our schools won't have a clue what their rights are or what kind of government they live under. There's just not enough time and money for that. They will have to leave government up to the experts and just trust everything to turn out okay.

[MikeJB]

The teachers are mostly good people who honestly want these children to have the best learning experience out of their time in public school.
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I really wish that was true but as far as my learning experience was concerned, these teachers didnt seem to give a damn about their children getting educated as much, some of them did but most just ranted about their paychecks all day and just did the meager amount of work to make the admin happy and didnt really try that hard to make the work easy or interesting or really educate the children, it just became a babysitting job for them and kids wasted 8 hours sitting there doing nothing. They were only there because the law said they had to be. Personally If schools and teachers wont do their jobs then kids are better off not even being there and people are better off not giving money to schools. Also as far as the bad kids are concerned, i dont get why the schools waste time with these kids, especially since the whole school system is overloaded. If the kids are bad and refuse to do their work, the school oughta kick em out and tell the parents to deal with them and send them to private school or someplace else, the school cant waste its time dealing with unruly children who refuse to learn, they have their hands full teaching the ones that DO want to learn. If we could just get rid of all the bad teachers and students and would get good teacher who want to teach kids what they really need to know and if we had students who were there everyday and cared about learning then the schools would be a much better place but because of tenure and *****y parents it seems like nobody can do anything. The admin cant fire the teachers without them *****ing about being mistreated and sueing the school and they cant kick some unruly kid out of school without the parent getting pissed that the child is being denied their education and sueing the school, either way they dont win with these bozos. Why cant these schools just have a accountability system where if these people are there and doing their jobs and doing them well then they stay and if they areint then they get fired? Simple as that! The schools shouldnt have to put up with lazy teachers and unruly students. The people who ran the schools I went to always seemed to want to change things but alot of the teachers ran and cried to their unions to keep these people from doing this stuff cuz it somehow hurt the teacher's pay or benefits and they didnt like that.

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The " administrative staff" is the real problem here.
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These are the people who really wanted to do whats good for the schools but everytime they try to, some parent or teacher whines about how someone is being mistreated.

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Teachers aren't allowed to punish or repremand their students anymore.
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Whatd you mean theyre not "allowed to"? Hell, most of these teachers dont even TRY to punish their students and even if they do it doesnt work because these stupid inner city ********** kids just never learn and the schools are too uptight to throw the little hoodlums out. Most teachers ive seen are too lazy to even get off their asses much less actually punish a student.

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They have ZERO power.
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They dont like to have to work either. They want to give the students the minimum amount of education and work and the rest of the time just want to sit there and they always grunt whenever some student comes up to them with a question or a problem. Ive actually been yelled at alot for coming up to a teacher and asking things because they were too *******ed lazy to help me, theyd rather just sit there and doodle than help me.

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They have to manage helping as many kids learn the daily ciriculum,
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They have too many kids and cant kick alot of em out without pissing off all the parents and having the PTA shove complaints down their throats. It gets insane when we have so many kids in class that you get some kids sitting in chairs in the back of the room, they dont even have any desks!!! Thats why I dont like all these people moving into this area and having like 3-5 kids per family it just makes the population go through the roof and none of these people beleive in birth control of any kind and just have sex all the time like its some hobby and we get all these annoying little brats that dont want to learn that just fill up our schools and make the experience for those who actually want to learn even harder because the teachers cannot adequately help them *when they want to* because they gotta waste time with the kids who dont wanna learn. Also you end up getting kids that belong to illegal aleins coming into these schools and we give them free education and by doing this we fill up the schools even more and our idiotic president isnt doing his job and kicking these losers out of here, instead he's giving them jobs and benefits!

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those few students who refuse or distract, are no longer placed in the corner, or lose recess, NO WAY, if the teacher did that, gaurenteed, gone by friday!
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Ive had teachers early on who seperated kids and kept kids in from recess and break. This happened all the way up to high school. Seemed like detention and small reprimands happened all the time but this was never enough because the students never learned anything from it. The punishments were not strict enough to get kids to learn what they did was wrong. The teachers never even really explained to them what they did wrong so alot of the time you never even knew what the hell it was that you did wrong.

==Mike==

[Trailscout]

Mike,

You touched on so many problems that it would be hard to reply to everything, but to sum it up, public schools have lots of problems in several areas.

We all agree that kids need to take showers after their exercises, but with all the fighting and teasing that goes on in unsupervised moments, quite a few of those kids are doing what you would expect and skipping the showers. It is up to us to take back the schools, get them under control and make a safe peaceful non-judgemental place where no child would DARE harass another child in the shower.

[Hooked]

Hey Everyone, interesting and thoughtful responses for the most part. I'm speaking as someone who was not always a nudist. Yes, I was one of those kids who didn't want to shower in gym class *hangs head in shame* but in reality, I had some good reasons for it.

First of all, the only kids in P.E. were the geeks (yours truly) and the straight up hoods who were in like three PE classes per semester because they couldn't sit through regular classes so that's where the counselers put them. All the jocks and "well-adjusted" kids where in athletics, not PE. The reason I bring this up is because the hoods were REALLY MEAN KIDS. You get naked, make yourself vulnerable and go into the shower, you are likely to walk out and find your towel and all your clothes missing, never to be returned (especially if you had expensive basketball shoes). The teacher/coach couldn't do anything about it because he was in his office or still out in the gym shooting hoops, and besides coaches are not the best at watching kids in general as it is. Our school suffered from too many sex scandals for any of the gym coaches to risk getting labeled a perv for sitting in the locker room while everyone was showering.

Also, growing up un-althetic, as many of the geeks in PE did, this was the first time group showering ever came up. So these kids are athletically challenged and probably like most people, brought up textiled. Not only that but they are more likely to be the ones who are overweight or underweight. (teen years are hard for guys too!)

I don't see anything wrong with individualized showers. I would have been more likely to shower in high school if I had that just because I would have been able to keep an eye on my stuff that way because in order for someone to get at my stuff, they would have had to enter a private shower stall to get it and that would take some balls (pardon my French) even for the worst thugs.

I think another thing that would have helped was if the coach had showered with the students. The coaches always say to shower and there's nothing to be ashamed of yet when they shower periodically throughout the day, it's during their off-period when they have the whole locker room to themselves and I have known some coaches who lock the locker room while they take a shower. They should walk the walk if you ask me. That way, they would be in the room and available to protect the smaller fish without seeming like they were voyeurs, watching everyone else in the buff, which can be unsettling for a teen. Much like social nudism, if everyone is naked, everyone is happy but if someone is naked and the other person is clothed, that's when the naked person feels vulnerable (sometimes). If the students see the authority figure nude then it will put them more at ease instead of feeling subjugated and vulnerable by their own nudity, which is most people's default reaction to being nude if they were raised strict textile. Coaches showering with students could raise an eyebrow in the community with some people but I feel that it is much more incriminating to stand around gawking at teenagers in the shower than it is the be a part of the shower and it's irresponsible to leave the room and allow for bullying to go on.

[luvnaturism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hooked:

First of all, the only kids in P.E. were the geeks (yours truly) and the straight up hoods who were in like three PE classes per semester because they couldn't sit through regular classes so that's where the counselers put them. All the jocks and "well-adjusted" kids where in athletics, not PE. The reason I bring this up is because the hoods were REALLY MEAN KIDS. You get naked, make yourself vulnerable and go into the shower, you are likely to walk out and find your towel and all your clothes missing, never to be returned (especially if you had expensive basketball shoes). The teacher/coach couldn't do anything about it because he was in his office or still out in the gym shooting hoops <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You make some interesting points.

I grew up in an era and in a place where nude showers were mandatory after every PE class, and nude swimming was mandatory for boys 3 x per week during the winter. Boys PE was always taught by one of the coaches.

Bullies have been with us forever, but we didn't have the truly mean, tough, criminal-in-the-making type that are sadly common today. We were rarely out of the coach's sight, and almost never out of his hearing. The boys PE office was right in the locker room. It had a Dutch door, and the upper half was always open when he was in.

And, yes, he was often nude with us. I don't recall seeing him shower, but he would come into the locker room in street clothes and change into athletic clothes with the door open. When we were in the swimming pool he was our lifeguard, and would sometimes get in the pool to work with non-swimmers. Most of the time he was nude, though occasionally he would watch over us in street clothes. Men and boys simply didn't wear swim suits.

I hadn't thought about it, but no doubt there was a message in the fact that he routinely did what we were required to do. We knew we were being treated as adults, and that's important to teens.

Today that whole situation would be tremendously politically incorrect. You may be right that fear of sexual allegations kept your coach out of the locker room. That's really too bad, because that's a situation where adult supervision is a necessity.

[florida-david]

one of my coaches in high school was a creepy dude that had his eyes glued on everyones penis'. they never left there, i am sure he eventually was locked up for it (hopefully). but if the coach was not a gawker, i think it would be great for him to shower with the kids as this would keep everyone under control and keep the bullies in line. i think adults should take back the schools and keep the kids in line. a coach honestly watching the kids (not gawking) while they shower would be a welcomed addition to a locker room. if you think about it, the whole showering/drying/dressing process only takes about ten mintues, so maybe he could just hang out in the area while the kids do their thing. oh well, politics.....

[Kevo2012]

hi yall just thought id give my two cents on this subject......

The whole showeing thing in PE is one of the most bizarre cases of stupid politics that i've ever heard of. First off, I'm in Junior High, and am in just the "normal" PE class. Now heres whats interesting, Last semester I was in a PE class of about oh about 50 guys and usually about 20-50% of them would shower after class was over. We would then of course get dressed and be on our way. But ever since school got back after Christmas, my schedule changed and I am now in a class of about 20 guys, but no one and I mean NO one takes a shower in that class. I kind of made a bet with some guys that by the end of the School year I'd get at least half the class to shower, well, unfortunantly, everyone just wants to go on stinking. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .... I wish this world wasn't so cruel about being Gay/Lesbian because I think this is partially the reason why people just don't want to take showers. Guys my age don't really care about being seen naked, but I guess since I'm the only one who takes a shower now, no one else will.
About the PE Coach thing and teachers and blah blah blah, I don't really think PE Coaches taking showers with their kids is exactly what you would call, "normal" lol, but I can understand the point. I understand about the bullying thing because I have been through bullying all my life because im really tall and a chubby. To me, a kid shouldn't have to put up with bullys, because just think of all those school shootings we've had in the US? Oh yeah, and that kid who shot himself in front of his class after he said "I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE"!... Things like this wouldn't happen if principals would take more direct action toward bullying. Now, I will admit that I do some silly things that I shouldn't do, for instance shanking one of my friends in the locker room, he actually thought it was funny but I thought I should stop since it probably wasn't a nice thing to do. If our school system doesn't get better, our education level is gonna go all the way down the drain.
Finally, calling all School Kids, GUYS AND GIRLS! TAKE A SHOWER AFTER PE! You'll understand why after you do =)

Peace
-Kevin

[sawdust]

Having read Kevin C's message, how many other readers believe he is really in Jr High? He seems to be far too articulate and in command of language to really be in the pre-teen age group. Perhaps who ever Kevin really is, is just trying to give himself credability by presenting himself as a "kid". I don't disagree with the content of his posting, I just question the validity of his being a pre-teen. So whats up Kevin? Sawdust

[MikeJB]

I think if we didnt have all this BS about gay rights n everything and everybody didnt talk about it so much then guys wouldnt have such a big problems with showering in the locker room. I think that these gay people should just keep their lifestyle to themselves and not talk about it in public because it just makes people feel weird n all. A while back it wasnt even something you talked about ever and now everybody talks about it and many treat it like its negative and I just dont think its something that needs to be exposed to people. I think homosexuality has hurt people more than helped it and homosexuals seem rather hateful to those who even dislike their lifestyle because they think these people hate them or have some grudge against them when really they just dont wanna be gay or just dont understand the lifestyle. Most people ive run into are too stupid to understand it anyways and use the word gay in the wrong way.

Mike you are showing your stupid side. Gay rights have absolutely nothing to do with showering in school.

If you feel wierd about gay people merely talking about having equal rights then fix yourself and don't demand that gays change to suit your own phobia.

You evidently don't understand why gays are gay and why they need protection and I'm not going to try and explain it to you. Maybe doing some research, finding out why they need these rights (yeah research) might make you a bit more sympathetic to their plight.

[Rex]

I was in a predominately gay nightclub, with my second wife. The entertainment, and atmosphere, were very good, and all were welcome.

A young guy, not realising I was with Kathy, pinched my bottom.

I said, "I'm with this lady."

He said, "Sorry, mate."

[I don't know about other parts of the world, but "mate" is a very friendly, totally non-sexual term, in Australia.]

I wasn't angry, insulted, embarrassed, threatened, or otherwise upset. Why should I be? He was polite, pleasant, friendly, and had made an honest mistake, which really was of no consequence.

I suggest that men who use the possible presence of gay men to avoid showering, are merely exibiting one more facet of their own insecurity, or misunderstanding, or both.

[stevenf64]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
Mike you are showing your stupid side. Gay rights have absolutely nothing to do with showering in school.

If you feel wierd about gay people merely talking about having equal rights then fix yourself and don't demand that gays change to suit your own phobia.

You evidently don't understand why gays are gay and why they need protection and I'm not going to try and explain it to you. Maybe doing some research, finding out why they need these rights (yeah research) might make you a bit more sympathetic to their plight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>MAN this sounds a lot like a flame (personal attack) but anyways Mike you are entitled to your opinion...just like everyone else. As for what one has to do with the other. Everything is connected. As much as people do not want to acknowledge this just look at evidence. When they took religion out of the schools, society changed. For better or worse you have to admit it changed. EVERYTHING has ripple affects on everything else. TO denie this is (IN YOUR WORDS) stupid. Just my opinion
steve

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
I think that these gay people should just keep their lifestyle to themselves and not talk about it in public because it just makes people feel weird n all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A musical interjection...

http://usuarios.lycos.es/cowboyincaracas/carefully_taught.mp3

CAREFULLY TAUGHT
performed by Rogers and Hammerstein, from the album South Pacific Soundtrack, 1949



You've got to be taught to hate and fear,
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught!

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
Or people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught!

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught!
You've got to be carefully taught!


-Mark

[Croydon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJB:
I think if we didnt have all this BS about gay rights n everything and everybody didnt talk about it so much then guys wouldnt have such a big problems with showering in the locker room. I think that these gay people should just keep their lifestyle to themselves and not talk about it in public because it just makes people feel weird n all. A while back it wasnt even something you talked about ever and now everybody talks about it and many treat it like its negative and I just dont think its something that needs to be expose to people. I think homosexuality has hurt people more than helped it and homosexuals seem rather hateful to those who even dislike their lifestyle because they think these people hate them or have some grudge against them when really they just dont wanna be gay or just dont understand the lifestyle. Most people ive run into are too stupid to understand it anyways and use the word gay in the wrong way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You kidding me right? Seriously, you are kidding right. You can't be that idiotic. I rarely rarely answer MikeJB's posts because they never make sense and are often extreme. Seriously, do you ever for one second THINK before you say something (in this case TYPE) or do you just say whatever nonsense that pops in your head.

Let me decipher your post. So you think that guys have problems with showering in public because there's a lot of talk about gay rights? Does that make sense to you, seriously? So guys were ok with public shower BEFORE gay rights?

So homosexuals should keep their "lifestyle" to themselves b/c a few people feel uncomfortable with homosexuality? That too makes sense to you? For decades gays have done that and you know what that cause? destruction. Many gays and lesbians remain in closet and all that cause is problems for them and their family. Many end up depress, suicidal or participate in self destructive behavior. The psychological effect of keeping secrets does a lot to someone and the inability to share that with others only make you feel like a liar, phoney and dishonest.

You are a nudist MikeJB and you often say that people should be accepting of your lifestyle and if they don't there'something wrong with them and in fact, you often say "the hell with them." MANY people have problems with nudism and your nudist lifestyle but I am sure you are not saying that you and all nudist should keep their lifestyle private and not tell others because that will make them feel uncomfortable. So how is homosexuality any different? Do you see how hypocrtical (not to mentionn stupid) your post is? A lot of white people feel weird around blacks, so does that mean that black people should stay home to avoid making white folks feel weird?

How has homosexuality hurt people? That doesn't make sense at all, then again, nothing you say makes any sense.

Case in point: you post, as usual, makes no sense and is hypocritical

[Bartamus]

Croydon: Could you ease up on the personal attacks? It seems to me you could make your point without using the "scorched earth" policy I've frequently seen in these forums.
Thanks

[Kevo2012]

Ok, going back to the subject of homosexuality, I had to agree with the person who brought up about White people not feeling comfortable around black people. I think that it really is no diffrent then a Straight person feeling weird around a homosexual atmosphere. Ok, now for my two cents on this subject.
First off, Homosexuality is in my opinion, something that should not be looked down upon, because it's a life choice that someone can make, and if thats the way they feel naturally, then maybe thats just the way God wanted you to be. But what really kills me about this subject is the church scandals... These stories are the dumbest and most profound I've ever heard of. A priest molesting kids? what has this world come to? I think the main problem with homosexuality becoming a bigger part in our society is that our future generations will feel that it is the way God wants us to live. Now I will say myself, that I have had homosexual thoughts in my head before, and I was clueless as to why.. But I found out that I just really thought the human body was really beautiful, seriously. I thought I liked guys but I didn't really feel that way towards them. Although I'm only 14, my recomendation to future generations of parents and teachers, is to TEACH kids about homosexuality! If kids do not know what they are doing, how are they going to know if its right or wrong? Also, if your kid decides to be homosexual, don't look down on them, let them live how they want to live and love them for who they are, not for their lifestyle. One last thing about the school showering thing, yall really got off the subject of it. Yall just started talking about homosexuality instead of the original subject lol..
Peace
-Kevin

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevo2012:
First off, Homosexuality is in my opinion, something that should not be looked down upon, because it's a life choice that someone can make <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Most would disagree that it is a choice. There are many theories about what causes homosexuality, but there is remarkably little disagreement that it is not a chosen orientation.

Why would anyone have ever chosen homosexuality in the not so distant past when it meant a miserable life of concealment or public humiliation, banishment from family, being subject to disgust and violence. Why would anyone choose it even today, in a supposedly more enlightened age when the mere thought of happy same-sex couples making public vows of support and fidelity to each other freaks the most powerful man in the world so badly that he feels the need to change the Constitution?

It's not a choice. Its just how some people are.

-Mark

[Bartamus]

OK everybody. It seems once again we're debating the issue of homosexuality. Last time I checked, this was a thread dealing with school showers.
For those who want to talk about the religious
perspective on homsexuality..please go to the religion post on this forum.
Thanks

[Bob S.]

I would also like to ask people not to use "flaming" word like stupid, idiotic, etc. Being civil to others, even if you find their opinions to be way out there, makes your argument that much more tolerable and legitimate.

Bart, the homosexuality aspect of this came out because it was suggested that it was a reason why some kids do not shower in school, the topic of this thread. I understand that arguing whether it is inborn or chosen is a devisive argument, but really, why should that argument be limited to the religion forum.

I have only seen one sentence that refers to the religious aspect of homosexuality. If it is a secular argument, would that be fine for here?

Bob S.

[MikeJB]

Mike you are showing your stupid side. Gay rights have absolutely nothing to do with showering in school.
-----------------------------------------------

Yeah but guys always worry about "gay" people looking at their penis in the locker room and some gay guys do weird things in there that might cause some guys to not want to take a shower in fear that it might happen to them. You just dont like what I said because you dont like anybody who bashes gay people, I mean I think the people themselves are alright but I just dont think the gay lifestyle is something that should be exercised in public, especially not in a high school where many people dont even know what being gay really is. I dont think its something high school kids should have to think about at that point in their lives, they have too much to do to worry about stupid trivial things like that. I just think these gay people have taken their lifestyle way too far and its hurt nudism in a significant way.


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If you feel wierd about gay people merely talking about having equal rights then fix yourself and don't demand that gays change to suit your own phobia.
------------------------------------------------

I dont mind them being gay but I just dont think its something that should exist in a high school lockerroom. Thats something that adults should deal with, not teens. Being gay to me just isnt natural and being a christian it goes against god's word.

------------------------------------------------
You evidently don't understand why gays are gay and why they need protection and I'm not going to try and explain it to you.
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Two people of the same sex areint supposed to be together or have sex together, thats just not right or natural and it goes against most religions, it even says so in the bible that god forbids it. id take his word over anyone on here most anyday. I think that god doesnt mind nudity but he sure doesnt think being gay is right.

-------------------------------------------------
Maybe doing some research, finding out why they need these rights (yeah research) might make you a bit more sympathetic to their plight.
-------------------------------------------------

Yeah but marriage has always been between a man and woman and its been that way for 100's of years and if we allow gay people to get married it would open the door for other unorthidox groups to want to legally marry and then almost anybody could get married and do the things that straight people do and the society would just collapse. Sometimes you just gotta say enough is enough.

[MikeJB]

You kidding me right? Seriously, you are kidding right. You can't be that idiotic. I rarely rarely answer MikeJB's posts because they never make sense and are often extreme. Seriously, do you ever for one second THINK before you say something (in this case TYPE) or do you just say whatever nonsense that pops in your head.
-------------------------------------------------

Yeah I do, I just dont think homosexuality is right or healthy. I dont mind people being homosexuals I just dont think its something that the general public, especially teen guys in a school locker room, need to be exposed to because it gives them unhealthy views of their bodies. Homosexuality just gives teens one more reason not to shower and another reason to fear or hate their bodies.


-------------------------------------------------
Let me decipher your post. So you think that guys have problems with showering in public because there's a lot of talk about gay rights?
-------------------------------------------------

I think guys worry about showering because they are worried that there might be gay people in the lockerroom with them that might make a move on them or make some sexual gesture about their bodies. Its hard enough to take a shower without worrying about some guy getting turned on by your penis. Its one thing if a girl did that but a guy doing that is just wrong.


-------------------------------------------------
Does that make sense to you, seriously? So guys were ok with public shower BEFORE gay rights?
-------------------------------------------------

Im sure that when homosexuality wasnt a subject that was talked about in lockers I think it was a bit easier for guys to take showers there. Most guys back then didnt even know the word gay or knew what it meant, now its a catch phrase used for almost anything, that goes way beyond homosexuality. Its gotten far worse than intended.


------------------------------------------------
So homosexuals should keep their "lifestyle" to themselves b/c a few people feel uncomfortable with homosexuality?
-------------------------------------------------

In a school locker room, yes. Im sure some parents dont wanna hear about some guy getting turned on by seeing their kid naked in the shower and ending up having a thing for them.


-------------------------------------------------
That too makes sense to you? For decades gays have done that and you know what that cause? destruction.
-------------------------------------------------

Homosexuality hasnt been a big topic at school until recently and people did just fine without hearing about it.


-------------------------------------------------
Many gays and lesbians remain in closet and all that cause is problems for them and their family.
-------------------------------------------------

If straight people can keep their relationship issues to themselves then so can gay guys. Most people dont need to hear what the two guys at the other end of the locker room did in their bedroom last night. They can at least let people know they are gay but just leave it at that. They dont need to be making out in front of people or talking about their sexual experiences with each other.


-------------------------------------------------
Many end up depress, suicidal or participate in self destructive behavior.
-------------------------------------------------

Thats their fault for choosing to travel that path. Nobody told them they had to be gay.


------------------------------------------------
The psychological effect of keeping secrets does a lot to someone and the inability to share that with others only make you feel like a liar, phoney and dishonest.
------------------------------------------------

Yeah but you dont feel dishonest about keeping something to yourself that you know is wrong and could hurt more people around you by telling them than just keeping it to yourself and if anything hurting just yourself. Maybe if it hurts these people so much they should be straight and then they could be as open about themselves as they want. Nobody forces them to be gay.

------------------------------------------------
You are a nudist MikeJB and you often say that people should be accepting of your lifestyle and if they don't there'something wrong with them and in fact, you often say "the hell with them."
-------------------------------------------------

Being a nudist is something good and wholesome that god accepts or at least tolerates and doesnt have an opinion on it one way or another, being gay is different, many religions comdemn it and they wouldnt do that if it was so good and wholesome like you say it is, big difference. I just dont think people should condemn something that is good and wholesome like nudity, but something like homosexuality is rightfully condemned to protect the morality and structure of society. Homosexuality would ruin society more than nudity would.


------------------------------------------------
MANY people have problems with nudism and your nudist lifestyle but I am sure you are not saying that you and all nudist should keep their lifestyle private and not tell others because that will make them feel uncomfortable.
-------------------------------------------------

Of course not because I find their view wrong and misguided because nudity is in no way bad or harmful to anyone.


------------------------------------------------
So how is homosexuality any different? Do you see how hypocrtical (not to mentionn stupid) your post is?
------------------------------------------------

Homosexuality and nudity are two different things. I just dont think as far as a school shower that homosexuality is something that would be good there. Im sure these guys could keep quiet about it while theyre in there and at school. Homosexuality isnt something that should be at school unless its being taught about in a classroom or is relevant to the curriculum.

-----------------------------------------------
A lot of white people feel weird around blacks, so does that mean that black people should stay home to avoid making white folks feel weird?
-----------------------------------------------

You cant help being black, you can help being gay.
If being gay was natural then why would my god and other people's god condemn it?

-------------------------------------------------
How has homosexuality hurt people? That doesn't make sense at all, then again, nothing you say makes any sense.
-------------------------------------------------

Being gay isnt natural. Two guys making love just doesnt make sense and is weird and promotes alot of std's and other health issues and just degrades the way our society functions and gives teens a bad concept of their bodies and relationships.

-------------------------------------------------
Case in point: you post, as usual, makes no sense and is hypocritical
-------------------------------------------------

Ive made my point, its just the fact that most people on here support homosexuality and would flame anybody who would dare oppose it. Thats typical of any homosexual or anybody who supports homosexuality. Ive ran into some homosexual people who get quite vicious if you even think of disagreeing with them. Im sure theyre not all bad but enough of them are and the lifestyle overall is just very negative and doesnt help our cause any.

------------------------------------------------
Most would disagree that it is a choice.
------------------------------------------------

Youre just saying that just so that youll get all the straight people to support homosexuality.


-------------------------------------------------
There are many theories about what causes homosexuality, but there is remarkably little disagreement that it is not a chosen orientation.
-------------------------------------------------

If its natural then why do so many condemn it?


------------------------------------------------
Why would anyone have ever chosen homosexuality in the not so distant past when it meant a miserable life of concealment or public humiliation, banishment from family, being subject to disgust and violence.
------------------------------------------------

You could say the same for nudity. Im sure they did it because they felt it was the right thing and they wanted to see how far they could stretch the system.

-----------------------------------------------
Why would anyone choose it even today, in a supposedly more enlightened age when the mere thought of happy same-sex couples making public vows of support and fidelity to each other freaks the most powerful man in the world so badly that he feels the need to change the Constitution?
----------------------------------------------

Honestly ive felt Bush is full of crap lately and dont support much of his war stuff but really this gay thing I know its a bit extreme but these activist people just will not give up and he just prolly feels he has no choice and if he makes an amendment then it will be the final word on the issue and these people will have to back down and then he can focus on more important issues. I just dont see how homosexual people cannot live happy lives without getting married? Why be with some guy or gal in a woman's case when you could find plenty of suitable people of the opposite sex that would love you completely and you could spend your life with them? I just think these homosexual people do this because they have mental issues and need help with being in a relationship and they just feel unloved or uneeded and just feel like nobody of the opposite sex is good enough for them. I think its more a psychological issue than anything else.

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It's not a choice. Its just how some people are.
-------------------------------------------------

Typical answer. Its so funny how you can usually guess how these people will respond to people who oppose them.

[Nude in the North]

Tell me why society would collapse.
I thought that kind of thinking went out years ago.
People used to think society would collapse if black's were freed.
People used to think society would collapse if women had the right to vote.
People used to think society would collapse if our government wasn't run by a King.

Need I go on????

Gay's getting married (or anyone else for that matter) are NOT going to cause anything to collapse , except maybe a lot of ridiculous Prejudices.

Get over your Homophobia, and get on with your life.

Steve

[FrankT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sawdust:
Having read Kevin C's message, how many other readers believe he is really in Jr High? He seems to be far too articulate and in command of language to really be in the pre-teen age group. Perhaps who ever Kevin really is, is just trying to give himself credability by presenting himself as a "kid". I don't disagree with the content of his posting, I just question the validity of his being a pre-teen. So whats up Kevin? Sawdust <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First off, most junior highers aren't PRE-teen.. they ARE teens.

Second, I have NO reason to doubt that Kevin is who and what he says he is. He's articulate and writes very well, but so do quite a few kids his age.

Keep it up, Kevin!

[Paniga]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nude in the North:
Tell me why society would collapse.

Gay's getting married (or anyone else for that matter) are NOT going to cause anything to collapse , except maybe a lot of ridiculous Prejudices.

Get over your Homophobia, and get on with your life.

Steve <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>here in canda it is legal for gays to wed and now 3 provinces will even give the same benifits to them. its just amatte rof time before the other ones follow. ANd as for one person on u.s. t.v. says the states should kick gays out hey come to canada. After all they will pay taxes which helps out the country.

[Cal Cajun]

I am confused, I thought teenage guys sometime were afraid to shower out of either shyness or fear they would be thought gay due to inadvertely popping a woody.

I agree with MikeJB that sexual behavior is a choice. It is the orientation that may not be

[florida-david]

MIKEJB - WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!! gayness is not a choice. do some research. mike, wow i thought you were open minded but i was clearly wrong - you are homophobic like most of society. i thought being a nudist would open your mind to other lifestyle, but apparently not.

why is it acceptable for two guys to discuss how they used a 'chick' last night but not two guys to discuss their love for one another? doesn't the bible say not to have casual sex? i get more upset by people 'using' someone. the bible is becoming more and more a bad justification for societies prejudices. just look at our silly president trying to protect his 'moral' code by trashing the constitution. oh, also, did you know that some people would claim you are a bad christian because you did not capitalize the word god??

back to the subject and away from the prejudice -i feel many teenage guys discuss homo sexuality now because they fear they might be gay since they themselves get a little turned on by the site of a nude male. many of the guys calling others gay found a way for them to feel ok about themselves because they have thoughts that they themselves interpret as gay (due to lack of experience). that does not make them gay - it makes them human and dealing with their sexuality. probably they have never seen a nude male and think that their 'excited state' is a show of their gayness whereas it is only a reaction to nudity. since most people have seen nudity only in a sexual context, they assume they themselves must be gay, and than this turns into their homophobia. maybe if these guys had better male role models in their lives (and saw normal people nude in a non-sexual situation), they would realize these thoughts are normal and need to be dealt with in a positive way. when i was in highschool, we would ignore morons like this. the problem now is that the morons are outnumbering the non-morons. since we are supposedly a little bit above the non-nudists in our understanding of society, can't we now move beyond prejudice?

"When they took religion out of the schools, society changed. For better or worse you have to admit it changed."

Got proof that removing prayer from the schools actually caused society to change?

"Yeah but marriage has always been between a man and woman and its been that way for 100's of years and if we allow gay people to get married it would open the door for other unorthidox groups to want to legally marry and then almost anybody could get married and do the things that straight people do and the society would just collapse."

Actually marriage has not always been between a man and a woman. Back in biblical times a man might have several wives, concubines, even slaves he slept with.

Even in present times in some places in the world it isn't just one man/one woman. Marriage as we know it today is quite different than it was in past centuries. At one time it was basicly a deed to someone's life being handed to their new male owner, arranged between people that might not ever have met.

Mike you need to look at the big picture, at the whole planet, at different times and at cultures different from your own.

Gay and straight isn't like a lightswitch. There are many (180) degrees of attraction out there and if people would just take this into consideration and not get bent because once or twice in their lives they felt an attraction to someone of their own gender (or even more often).

Now we have the true answer why group showers are avoided.... it's just plain old homophobia and an intentional misunderstanding of why gays are gay. Don't you think that gays would know why they are gay better than a homophobe?

[Trailscout]

I don't buy into the premise that fear of gays is the big reason that kids won't take a shower at school.

I think it boils down to insecurity about one's body: too thin, too fat, too smooth, too hairy, too whatever.

Discrete monitoring of lockers and showers, affirmation of differences, positive role modelling would eliminate a lot of this problem.

When boys and girls reach puberty and the normal changes start taking place, they become very self-conscious about those changes--apparently not realizing that it happens to everyone, and that they're not unique.

[Bob S.]

"I dont mind people being homosexuals I just dont think its something that the general public, especially teen guys in a school locker room, need to be exposed to because it gives them unhealthy views of their bodies."

So what do you suggest Mike, four locker rooms? Cal Cajun said it best "I agree with MikeJB that sexual behavior is a choice". You have done a good job arguing that in a nudist summer camp, sexual behaviour does not occur. Why do you now say that homosexuals in the locker room are being sexual?

Homosexuality describes the gender of the people that others are attracted to. It has also existed throughout all of mankind. It will not cause the downfall of civilization.

And just curious Mike, you suggest that gays who stare at other "straight" guys will make them uncomfortable, especially in the locker room. Well, what about the men who stare at women at nude beaches? Should your solution also go for them, too. Ban all men. After all, a gay is a gay and a man is a man.

Bob S.

[MikeJB]

Tell me why society would collapse.
I thought that kind of thinking went out years ago.
-------------------------------------------------

Because if you let gays get married then it opens the door for other groups to try to legalize marriage for them and then we go back to half the crap we had back in the biblical times of men marrying several wifes and slaves and brothers marrying sisters and it would just turn into a great big mess. If we keep marriage simple and between a man and a woman then we maintain control and keep alot of this nonsense from getting loose. If we legalize gay marriage it will give these other groups the green light to stand up and say "Hey if gays can get married then why cant I have 3 wifes or marry my little sister?". You see the mess youd be starting? Its more than just giving people freedom, its maintaining the set of morals that we have in place now, granted they are not perfect but sometimes you gotta set limits and say enough is enough.


------------------------------------------------
People used to think society would collapse if black's were freed.
People used to think society would collapse if women had the right to vote.
People used to think society would collapse if our government wasn't run by a King.

Need I go on????
-------------------------------------------------

Those were all good things that should be free and people were in the wrong in that case. Gay marriage and homosexuality in and of itself is different.

-------------------------------------------------
Gay's getting married (or anyone else for that matter) are NOT going to cause anything to collapse , except maybe a lot of ridiculous Prejudices.
-------------------------------------------------

Once gays can get married the other groups will use the gays reasoning for legalizing gay marriage to their advantage and then marriage will be a legal free for all and we might as well not have any laws about it at all.


------------------------------------------------
Get over your Homophobia, and get on with your life.
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Its more than homophobia, its the fact that we shouldnt allow something that is wrong and allow the states which are against homosexuality to be forced to accept a legal liscense for these gay people to get married, its much more than their own business because them getting married involves the law and the state and thus is all of our problems and not just some personal matter.


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MIKEJB - WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!! gayness is not a choice.
-------------------------------------------------

Then why are all the gay people around me people that used to be straight and then one day CHOSE to be gay? Most people I know were straight up to a point and then learned about and chose to be gay. I have never seen ONE born natural gay in my life. So I have no reason to beleive otherwise.


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do some research. mike, wow i thought you were open minded but i was clearly wrong - you are homophobic like most of society.
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Im open minded about things that sound right and just to me and homosexuality doesnt seem right or just to me. Nudism is one thing, homosexuality is another. I dont mind if people be gay and do it on their own terms but when they make it my business or make it the state's business by bringing them and the legal system into their lifestyle then I have a problem with it.


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i thought being a nudist would open your mind to other lifestyle, but apparently not.
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What does being a nudist have to do with being open to other lifestyles? I thought it just had to do with being open about myself my body and that of those around me? It has to do with nudity, not other lifestyles. I dont think you should use nudity as a banner to support other lifestyles.


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why is it acceptable for two guys to discuss how they used a 'chick' last night but not two guys to discuss their love for one another?
-------------------------------------------------

If two guys had sex with one girl and it was the same girl for both guys I would have a problem with that just as much as I would with two guys having sex with each other. Marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman, nothing else, end of story.

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doesn't the bible say not to have casual sex? i get more upset by people 'using' someone.
------------------------------------------------

I think casual sex between two consenting persons is ok, but I dont like people using someone though.


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the bible is becoming more and more a bad justification for societies prejudices.
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I know people take it in a wrong and sometimes very often an extreme way but I think in this case it hits right on the mark. Not everything in the bible is some outrageous christian plot to oppress others.


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just look at our silly president trying to protect his 'moral' code by trashing the constitution.
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I think he has resorted to using the constitution because the more extreme gay activist groups have given him no other recourse and several mayors and judges are taking the law into their own hands and you get these judges who by themselves try to decide the law for the whole city or state without even considering the city council or mayor or anyone else. I think he just wants an end to some of this madness where these single people take the law into their own hands.


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oh, also, did you know that some people would claim you are a bad christian because you did not capitalize the word god??
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I dont consider myself a "perfect" christian anyways so i dont really care. I think its dumb to be so picky about something, if god has any disagreements with my expression of his name or his ideas then he can tell me in his own good time, I dont want these yahoo's speaking for god supposedly on his behalf, if he's got something to say he needs to speak up otherwise ill just assume he doesnt give a damn about it.


-------------------------------------------------
back to the subject and away from the prejudice -i feel many teenage guys discuss homo sexuality now because they fear they might be gay since they themselves get a little turned on by the site of a nude male.
------------------------------------------------

I think its sick for one guy to be turned on by another and if they do they probably need counseling.


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many of the guys calling others gay found a way for them to feel ok about themselves because they have thoughts that they themselves interpret as gay (due to lack of experience).
------------------------------------------------

I dont think a whole lot of these kids know what the hell the word GAY means anyways, they always seem to take it way out of context.


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that does not make them gay - it makes them human and dealing with their sexuality.
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Having sexual thoughts about someone of your own sex doesnt seem to be dealing with your sexuality very much. It would be so much more simpiler if everyone was just straight and if people didnt go into these weird alternate sexual states.

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probably they have never seen a nude male and think that their 'excited state' is a show of their gayness whereas it is only a reaction to nudity.
------------------------------------------------


Theyre just excited because they have never seen a nude person before in any form, it has nothing to do with being gay. This is just another excuse for people to promote being gay and practically force us all to just accept it and treat it like its healthy and normal and before we know it aids and stds are gonna go through the fricken room and then those gay people are gonna blame us for all their problems that we told them how to solve in the first *******ed place.


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since most people have seen nudity only in a sexual context, they assume they themselves must be gay, and than this turns into their homophobia.
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Thats the media's fault and they stretch the homosexual lifestyle into a weird context just like they do hetrosexual sex and nudity.


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maybe if these guys had better male role models in their lives (and saw normal people nude in a non-sexual situation), they would realize these thoughts are normal and need to be dealt with in a positive way.
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I dont see how being gay can be normal or healthy or how its gonna help nudity in any way, at most it would probably hurt our cause more than help it.

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when i was in highschool, we would ignore morons like this.
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A long time ago most teens didnt even have to deal with the word gay or the homosexual lifestyle, its just not something you talked about or dealt with in public and it was kept in its place and now its a commonplace thing and every *******ed kid knows about it and sometimes fears it and its gotten to be a bigger issue than it should be, sheesh I mean cmon if nudity couldve exploded like this we wouldve all had the right to walk the streets nude everyday by now. Cant we concentrate more on the nudity and less on the homosexuality?


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the problem now is that the morons are outnumbering the non-morons.
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Face it, most people just do not like or do not want to accept homosexuality in their lives and they sure as hell dont wanna live down the street from some gay couple that does everything that a straight couple does everyday.


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since we are supposedly a little bit above the non-nudists in our understanding of society, can't we now move beyond prejudice?
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I think in most cases yes we can but homosexuality is something different and I just see far more problems than solutions if we allow it to grow beyond what it is now. Its not a fear its an actual fact, its bad enough that all these other minorities want the right to marry, the only thing keeping them from getting married is the fact that we have a strong rule about marriage, you allow homosexuality to become legal and that law will no longer be strong anymore and it will break and all hell will break loose because every little bozo out there is gonna wanna marry everything from their boyfriend to their sister to their dog even, its gonna get insane and then drugs and std's are gonna totally blow through the roof and who knows what else and society will just collapse.

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"When they took religion out of the schools, society changed. For better or worse you have to admit it changed."

Got proof that removing prayer from the schools actually caused society to change?
-------------------------------------------------

I think it did more harm than good, most religions actually promote more values than people without religions would and I think religion needs to be in school but it needs to be monitored so that it can be fair to all and all can have equal opportunity to enjoy their religion and practice it in school free of harassment or free of the school promoting or forcing one religion on people over another.

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"Yeah but marriage has always been between a man and woman and its been that way for 100's of years and if we allow gay people to get married it would open the door for other unorthidox groups to want to legally marry and then almost anybody could get married and do the things that straight people do and the society would just collapse."

Actually marriage has not always been between a man and a woman. Back in biblical times a man might have several wives, concubines, even slaves he slept with.
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Yeah and thats exactly why we have the law the way it is now to prevent that madness, if you allow homosexuals legal marriage then you open the door for these other people to gain a foothold and thus this crap will start all over again and we will swing right back around to where we were back then and all our efforts to change this will have proven to be a waste of time and effort because we will be right back where we started from.


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Even in present times in some places in the world it isn't just one man/one woman.
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Yeah and most of these places that allow this promote TERRORISM or are in poverty or have other issues that we have avoided because we have not adopted these marriage policies.


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Marriage as we know it today is quite different than it was in past centuries.
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Of course, because we worked hard to make it that way to protect the people and ensure that straight people would be safe and that marriage could only be between a man and a woman.

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At one time it was basicly a deed to someone's life being handed to their new male owner, arranged between people that might not ever have met.
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Okay then, if you dont want this to happen again then you wont want gay people to legally marry then.

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Mike you need to look at the big picture, at the whole planet, at different times and at cultures different from your own.
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I do and I really see alot of bad and evil things that I dont want this country to become. I know we need alot more acceptance and change but this is not the sort of thing I would want to see happen. Marriage is supposed to be sacred and its supposed to be between a man and a woman and im sure we would all feel safer if it remained that way and if we knew that it would remain that way always. I dont like the thought of having a male spouse or having 3 women as my wives or marrying my dog *I dont have a dog but im just saying* I want to know that I can and will marry just ONE woman and only a woman if I decided to get married. I think it would be unfair if I married more than one woman or if I married a guy which should have his own woman instead of being with me or marrying a family member which could be very unhealthy if I had kids with that person, I just think there could be a lot of potential problems that seem very true and very likely and not just some risk or paranoid delusion. I know youre so nuts about getting everything for gays legalized that you dont see the negative facts about this whole thing but thats just the way it is.

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Gay and straight isn't like a lightswitch.
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It is for some people. Most in fact that ive seen turn that switch alot in their lives.


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There are many (180) degrees of attraction out there and if people would just take this into consideration and not get bent because once or twice in their lives they felt an attraction to someone of their own gender (or even more often).
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I would and I strongly suggest that people stay on the 90 degree route thank you.

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Now we have the true answer why group showers are avoided.... it's just plain old homophobia and an intentional misunderstanding of why gays are gay.
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No, most of us guys dont want our fellow classmate in the next stall making a move on us because he gets too excited about seeeing penises and cant get himself a woman who would love him.

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Don't you think that gays would know why they are gay better than a homophobe?
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Theyre gay because they are troubled and dont know what they really want out of life and need to be put in the right direction.

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I don't buy into the premise that fear of gays is the big reason that kids won't take a shower at school.
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I do, people at my school used to talk about being gay so much that if you didnt know what behing gay really meant you could be in a lot of trouble and get the wrong idea. Trust me its just better to keep mum about it in school setting or if you really want to know ask a teacher or parent about it, not your best buddy at lunch.

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I think it boils down to insecurity about one's body: too thin, too fat, too smooth, too hairy, too whatever.
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Hey ive had such insecurities before and ive always been gay, so scratch that idea.


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Discrete monitoring of lockers and showers, affirmation of differences, positive role modelling would eliminate a lot of this problem.
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Yah so basically we let all the radicals just open the door for a legalized free for all on marriage and most of us moral people just shut the hell up and just deal with this insanity huh? Yeah right.

" most religions actually promote more values than people without religions would "

C'mon now, that isn't true. Morals are really not linked to religion at all.

And Mike, nobody is trying to make you look stupid, you are doing a great job all on your own. I don't think you are stupid most times but you really need to mature, stop using nasty words to describe other people, and most of all, really read and think about those posting to you about this gay issue.

"------------------------------------------------
There are many (180) degrees of attraction out there and if people would just take this into consideration and not get bent because once or twice in their lives they felt an attraction to someone of their own gender (or even more often).
------------------------------------------------


I would and I strongly suggest that people stay on the 90 degree route thank you."

It isn't a choice Mike. Do you choose your attraction to women? Of course not. It comes from deep inside and is not swayed with logic or religion.

You talk about being gay as if it's something you can turn on and off and it just isn't like that. Can you turn off your sexual feelings towards women? There really is no difference.

"Theyre gay because they are troubled and dont know what they really want out of life and need to be put in the right direction."

If they are troubled it is only because people have opinions like what you posted above. They are troubled because they are told that their natural feelings are horribly wrong and it makes them suicidal.

They do know what they want out of life same as the next guy and they are heading in the right direction if they are honestly dealing with their feelings.

I wish I could make you walk in the shoes of a gay person just for a day. You seem to have absolutely no understanding of homosexuality and yet you think you are an expert on it.

"I do, people at my school used to talk about being gay so much that if you didnt know what behing gay really meant you could be in a lot of trouble and get the wrong idea. Trust me its just better to keep mum about it in school setting or if you really want to know ask a teacher or parent about it, not your best buddy at lunch."

Ok, now we are getting down to the real reason you feel like this. You are hinting here that something happened at school that might have caused you to form your opinions. Spit it out Mike.

[stevenf64]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:


And Mike, nobody is trying to make you look stupid, you are doing a great job all on your own. I don't think you are stupid most times but you really need to mature, stop using nasty words to describe other people, and most of all, really read and think about those posting to you about this gay issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cyndiann, I thought that you never flamed(attacked) people? Couldn't you have responded without the personal slams?

[Nude in the North]

Posted by Mike JB: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, because a gay guy, especially me... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Care to explain this ?

Perhaps it was a Freudian slip.

Steve

[soofreeemateomanian]

ok mike, you seem to want to exibit your ignorance of the subject. It is not thir fault thy ar gay, and just becaus they are gay dosent mean they have no manners. I am though, against gay marrige. When a child is growing up, they need a mom and a dad. being gay is not "right" or "wrong."

[soofreeemateomanian]

homosexuality is not a gene, our socity will not be overun with gays.

[soofreeemateomanian]

Having read Kevin C's message, how many other readers believe he is really in Jr High? He seems to be far too articulate and in command of language to really be in the pre-teen age group. Perhaps who ever Kevin really is, is just trying to give himself credability by presenting himself as a "kid". I don't disagree with the content of his posting, I just question the validity of his being a pre-teen. So whats up Kevin? Sawdust
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ok this post got me p' off. this frivolous post has nothing to do with showers! Kevin is not being unscrupulous in the fact h has readable typing. Before you make such a sick and disgusting generalization know the subject.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stevenf64:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:


And Mike, nobody is trying to make you look stupid, you are doing a great job all on your own. I don't think you are stupid most times but you really need to mature, stop using nasty words to describe other people, and most of all, really read and think about those posting to you about this gay issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cyndiann, I thought that you never flamed(attacked) people? Couldn't you have responded without the personal slams? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So sorry you are confused as to what a flame is. If I would have said Mike was stupid that would be a flame. I said that his words were stupid which is not a flame. Why is the definition of a flame so hard for you to understand? It really isn't my responsibility to teach you what flames are.

Couldn't wait to try once again to make me look bad could you? I haven't forgotten that you are the one that posted over 30 times in a row directly at me in a menacing manner. That is sick! Get a life!

[NoodJuggler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stevenf64:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:


And Mike, nobody is trying to make you look stupid, you are doing a great job all on your own. I don't think you are stupid most times but you really need to mature, stop using nasty words to describe other people, and most of all, really read and think about those posting to you about this gay issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cyndiann, I thought that you never flamed(attacked) people? Couldn't you have responded without the personal slams? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey stevenf64..Don't take it personal. I thought it was 35 times? And the Forum Cop is just being herself..At least she picks on everyone else also..So it isn't you. I'm just glad I'm not married to her. hehehehe. Just keeping it on the funny side. Nothing personal intended.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sorry Corky..Couldn't help myself.

[nudeM]

posted by NoodJuggler: "And the Forum Cop is just being herself.."------------------------------------------

Please. The mere mention of her being a cop of any sort could be cause for future reprocussions. Shame on you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyndiann:
"When they took religion out of the schools, society changed. For better or worse you have to admit it changed."

Got proof that removing prayer from the schools actually caused society to change? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Prayer was never removed from the schools. Students remain free to pray as they see fit, "As long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in schools". What is prohibited is public schools sponsoring prayer or leading students in prayer. The students themselves retain their full first amendment right to religious expression.

Morals education remains legal, and essential. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Teaching values: Though schools must be neutral with respect to religion, they may play an active role with respect to teaching civic values and virtue, and the moral code that holds us together as a community. The fact that some of these values are held also by religions does not make it unlawful to teach them in school. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>More here: Religious Expression in Public Schools (http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/08-1995/religion.html)

[Naturist Mark]

Mike wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Then why are all the gay people around me people that used to be straight and then one day CHOSE to be gay? Most people I know were straight up to a point and then learned about and chose to be gay. I have never seen ONE born natural gay in my life. So I have no reason to beleive otherwise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is totally atypical.

I don't know anyone who chose their sexual orientation, gay or straight. Heterosexuals don't choose to be straight any more than homosexuals or bisexuals choose their orientation.

If you are straight, can you remember when you chose to be heterosexual? If not, why would you assume others choose their orientation?

I know quite a few gay people, including members of my own family. Not a single one ever CHOSE to be gay. I've never heard of a single person who chose to be gay.

What I have heard of is people who tried to live straight, but eventually admitted to themselves that they were gay all along.

I've also known a few who 'live straight', but have secret gay lives.

And even a few who lived gay, then found themselves falling for someone of the opposite sex. Bisexuality can be just as much a surprise.

I seriously doubt that every gay person Mike has met actually CHOSE to be gay. More likely they chose to admit they were gay after long fighting the truth.
..........................

As for the issue of 'teen gays' ogling straights in the showers. Isn't this more likely an imagined fear of homophobes? Seems to me that teen gays are the least likely people to ogle anyone, they are already living in danger of getting a pounding just for breathing the same air as their nervous 'straight-but-afraid-of-catching-gayness' classmates.

-Mark

"Then why are all the gay people around me people that used to be straight and then one day CHOSE to be gay? Most people I know were straight up to a point and then learned about and chose to be gay. I have never seen ONE born natural gay in my life. So I have no reason to beleive otherwise."

I think you have to consider that they were always gay and just knew how violently opposed to it you are. The choice was not in being gay or straight. The choice was to tell you or keep silent.

[Trailscout]

Mark, a little common sense will tell you that the human brain is mostly given over to the cerebrum, in other words, we LEARN behavior, we are not born with it.

Orientation is the result of conditioning. B.F. Skinner and Pavlov demonstrated that conditioning can be reversed and new behavior learned.

[Paniga]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MikeJB:
[QB] Tell me why society would collapse.
I thought that kind of thinking went out years ago.
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Gay's getting married (or anyone else for that matter) are NOT going to cause anything to collapse , except maybe a lot of ridiculous Prejudices.
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Once gays can get married the other groups will use the gays reasoning for legalizing gay marriage to their advantage and then marriage will be a legal free for all and we might as well not have any laws about it at all.

Well if this is true canada is in huge trouble then cause gay marriages are legal in canada. ANd no other "groups" seems to be pounding at the door want to marry sis/bro, or have more than one wife. Dosnt the u.s. constitution say somewhere in it that goverment shall not make a law that discriminate against a person or group.

[Trailscout]

Gay is not an ethnic group. It is an immoral lifestyle choice such as being a car thief.

I don't think most people care who a man wants to leave his worldly goods to when he dies.

But when it comes to raising children, government has a duty to prevent adopted kids from being placed in immoral homes.