A contentious question?? [Archive]

BillyD

01-02-2003, 04:08 PM

Great question! The Bible gives us much insight on this point. Check out:
Romans 3.9-20. We are all sinners, no matter how "good" we might be.
Isaiah 64.6. All that we call good or righteous that we do is like filthy rags -- compared to the righteousness that God wants to give us.
Ephesians 2.8-10. We are saved by God's grace -- it is a gift. It is not by our works, so no one can be proud of their efforts.
Matthew 20.1-16. Jesus gives us a parable that shows that it is not by how much we have worked or how long we have been with Him, it is the graciousness of God.

So, yes, someone who accepts God at the end of his life (see Luke 23.40-43 for the thief who accepted Christ minutes before he died and received assurance that day, that he would be in heaven)will be saved. As for the other person . . . I can't judge. But if in truth he rejected God and chose non-God, then he did not allow God to be his substitute, he did not accept His gift of grace, so he chooses to stay with sin. And sin will ultimately be destroyed.

Quick answer. There's so much more. Keep seeking.

TXK NUDE

01-02-2003, 05:41 PM

Good answer! A lot of people want to "blame" God for all the evil in the world, or to accuse him of being unfair in the arena of who gets into heaven. The truth is that evil is in the world because of men (See the Genesis account of the Garden of Eden) and that evil leads to death and destruction (Romans 6:23). God desired that none should perish (1Peter 3:9) so he devised a simple plan for redemption from sin and evil (John 3:16) by sending His only begotten Son, Jesus, to take the punishment of sin--death, for us.

All that a person has to do is believe in their hearts, and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, thus accepting His work of grace on the cross, and they SHALL be saved! No ifs, ands, or buts!

Now, a person, no matter how good they are, who rejects this simple plan for eternal salvation, is condemned--on his own, not God's (John 3:17-18). God wants you in heaven with Him, according to John 14. There are MANY mansions in heaven! If you miss it, no one is to blame but yourself!

But the good news is that you don't have to miss out. God still extends His mercy to all who believe, and forgives all our unrighteousness (James 1). You may be the worst sinner, or the most gentle and saintly soul, but He will forgive all your sins, though they be as scarlet, He'll make them white as snow. This is that same God that is being blamed for all the evil in the world! He is so loving and forgiving! All you have to do is believe His word, and accept His plan to be saved!

Any soul lost to eternity is lost by their own free will, and choice. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Don't ignore God's warning. You've read the truth, how will you respond?

01-02-2003, 10:30 PM

I realize how unfair it seems that someone who lives a good (by man's standards) life would not be accepted into heaven.

It seems equally unfair that a person can live a selfish rotten life and then die and go to heaven.

However, God is supreme and sets the standards to which He expects us to adhere. Of course, He will help us to reach the standard which He has set for us. He doesn't expect us to do something on our own that He knows we can't do--reach perfection. He has provided a way. Sin entered the world when Lucifer became prideful and said he wanted to be "like the Most High". Lucifer was an angel and was cast out of heaven. He was instrumental in bringing sin into the world, but I'm sure man would have done that without his help. Mankind doesn't want God interfering in his life. We tend to think that we can do it ourselves, like the child asserting his will and saying, "I can do it myself."

Since we have a God-given will to choose what to believe or what not to believe, we can choose to accept or reject that there is a God, to accept or reject the fact that God says we are all sinners, to accept or reject that there is a heaven for those who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and a hell for those who reject Him, to choose to live as we see fit or to live as we believe God wants us to live, and to accept or reject that we are eternal beings who will spend eternity SOMEWHERE. Just where is our choice.

God doesn't want puppets who serve Him only because they have no choice; we do have a choice. You can believe, disbelieve, accept or reject. You can accept the Bible as the word of God or as just a book written by ordinary men. Keep this in mind: the Bible was written by 44 men over a period of 1500 years. Yet it all fits together and points to one Person, Jesus Christ. Everything that was predicted in the Bible up to this point has come true. The rest of the events are future, and they will happen. Believe or it not. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sojourner

01-03-2003, 12:00 AM

Great question. The previous posts have had great truth to them as well. One thing I'd like to add to the mix is that when we look at others who may be "good people" we don't know their hearts, what is really going on inside of them. God judges the heart and our relationship with Him.
When we look at "Christians", we may be looking at folks whose hearts have not been made right with God but are "Christians" for show. Do they go to heaven? God knows their hearts and only He can answer. Many self professed Christians when they go to the judgment seat will be turned away because their hearts were never right with God.
When He was on the cross, Jesus had two criminals on either side of him . Initially both made fun of Christ, but one's heart changed and He was granted heaven as his reward.
Do we understand the mind of God? If you search for Him, He wants to reveal Himself to you. History is ripe with people turning away from Him then blaming Him when things go wrong. But those who turn back to Him will be saved.
One other thing to reflect on, He has told us it is not by our works that we are saved but by His grace and our faith and acceptance of Him.

Keep asking those great questions!

Soj

nudistwheelchair

01-03-2003, 12:01 AM

Amen to that

Rik

01-03-2003, 02:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
Since we have a God-given will to choose what to believe or what not to believe.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You cannot choose what to believe. You either believe it or you don't: choice doesn't come into it.

Rik

fns

01-03-2003, 04:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
You cannot choose what to believe. You either believe it or you don't: choice doesn't come into it.

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This really isn't true. Our beliefs are our choice. We choose what thoughts are in our heads. What we think about something then becomes part of our belief system. We choose from the variety of things to believe. I could easily choose to believe the sky is green, and ignore evidence to the contrary. People used to believe the earth was flat, maybe some still do. It's all a matter of choice, I don't believe our brains are pre-programmed.

Rik

01-03-2003, 05:13 AM

Fns

If I believe the sky is green it is because to me it is green not because I choose it to be green.

If I choose between green and blue then what I really believe is it might be green OR blue.

But why would I suppose it might be blue? Only because other people say so. So I choose not to accept what other people say because I believe the sky is green.

Rik

fns

01-03-2003, 11:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
Fns

If I believe the sky is green it is because to me it is green not because I choose it to be green.

If I choose between green and blue then what I really believe is it might be green OR blue.

But why would I suppose it might be blue? Only because other people say so. So I choose not to accept what other people say because I believe the sky is green.

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have agreed that beliefs are a choice we make. You state "So I CHOOSE not to accept what other people say because I believe the sky is green". That is the choice you have made, to believe the sky is green. It doesn't matter why you made the choice. You didn't choose it to be green, you chose to believe it is green. Thank you, that was my point.

David77

01-03-2003, 12:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
A contentious answer:

Neither - there is no heaven.

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>AMEN, Brother Rik!

Vin

01-03-2003, 01:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
A contentious answer:

Neither - there is no heaven.

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Or both... if you think of the Summerlands as heaven. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

01-03-2003, 01:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fns:
[QUOTE]You have agreed that beliefs are a choice we make. You state "So I CHOOSE not to accept what other people say because I believe the sky is green". That is the choice you have made, to believe the sky is green. It doesn't matter why you made the choice. You didn't choose it to be green, you chose to believe it is green. Thank you, that was my point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. It is green therefore I have no choice but to believe it to be green. I do not believe it to be blue no matter how much you tell me it is, for I know it to be green. I cannot choose which one I believe to be true although, of course, I can choose to tell you which one I believe to be true. I could choose to tell you that I believe it's blue but that is quite different from my actually believing it to be blue.

Got it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

TXK NUDE

01-03-2003, 05:01 PM

Rik is right...there are absolutes, and they are true whether we believe in them or not. God is one of those absolutes, as is heaven, and Jesus' redemptive work on the cross. They are true and beyond dispute in the eternal scheme of things. Sin is also an absolute, and we as men are not the final judge of what is sin and what is not. God is the final judge, and His judgement is also absolute. Those in sin will perish in eternal flame, and those who accept His grace and mercy through Jesus Christ will receive eternity in heaven.

Now...we also have a choice in what we believe. We either believe the truth--the absolutes--or we don't. What will you believe?

Vin

01-03-2003, 08:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TXK NUDE:
Rik is right...there are absolutes, and they are true whether we believe in them or not. God is one of those absolutes, as is heaven, and Jesus' redemptive work on the cross. They are true and beyond dispute in the eternal scheme of things.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When someone -- anyone -- can PROVE to me that this is true without getting into circular arguments or relying on an ancient anthology written by men, I'll reconsider my stand on Christianity. Until then, it remains just one of a number of equally viable routes to understanding of the nature of divinity. It's no more right nor wrong than any other.

BB,
Vin /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

01-03-2003, 09:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TXK NUDE:
Rik is right...there are absolutes, and they are true whether we believe in them or not. God is one of those absolutes, as is heaven, and Jesus' redemptive work on the cross. They are true and beyond dispute in the eternal scheme of things. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They are true huh? Circular thinking.... god said he was god and so since he said it, it has to be true. At least that is what was written by man, supposedly inspired by a god but how do you really know? Because god said so? Of course he's gonna say that!

I could write a book as well that says I am the only truth and that I have no proof but you have to have faith in me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Bob S.

01-03-2003, 09:50 PM

"All that a person has to do is believe in their hearts, and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, thus accepting His work of grace on the cross, and they SHALL be saved! No ifs, ands, or buts!"

TXK Nude, I do hope you will give latitude to those who are Jewish, Muslim, etc. I am Jewish and still believe that G*d is aaiting my presense when I am no longer a resident of Earth.

"But why would I suppose it might be blue? Only because other people say so. So I choose not to accept what other people say because I believe the sky is green."

Rik, beliefs are vastly different from factual info. The sky is the color that we have designated as blue (on a clear day). It can be proven. Faith is different as it cannot be proven as true or false. We do choose our own beliefs just as we choose our sides on social issues. We will choose whatever religion compliments us the best.

Bob S.

Rik

01-04-2003, 03:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
Faith is different as it cannot be proven as true or false. We do choose our own beliefs just as we choose our sides on social issues. We will choose whatever religion compliments us the best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can choose your religion, you can choose where you stand on social issues, you can choose what to wear, you can choose what to say but you cannot choose what you believe - you either believe it or you don't. BUT if you choose not to believe me then so be it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And are you telling me the sky is blue? Prove it!

Rik

fns

01-04-2003, 03:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
Faith is different as it cannot be proven as true or false. We do choose our own beliefs just as we choose our sides on social issues. We will choose whatever religion compliments us the best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can choose your religion, you can choose where you stand on social issues, you can choose what to wear, you can choose what to say but you cannot choose what you believe - you either believe it or you don't. BUT if you choose not to believe me then so be it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And are you telling me the sky is blue? Prove it!

Rik <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First off, I know you will not change your position, and that is fine, believe what you want. But here you say we do choose our religion, but not our beliefs? Then what is your definition of a belief? I choose what I believe, I choose what I think, I choose how I feel about things. Is the sky blue? It looks blue to me, but I could be wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

belief

\Be*lief"\, n. [OE. bileafe, bileve; cf. AS. gele['a]fa. See Believe.] 1. Assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge; reliance upon word or testimony; partial or full assurance without positive knowledge or absolute certainty; persuasion; conviction; confidence; as, belief of a witness; the belief of our senses.

Belief admits of all degrees, from the slightest suspicion to the fullest assurance. --Reid.

2. (Theol.) A persuasion of the truths of religion; faith.

Rik

01-04-2003, 04:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fns:
I choose what I believe, I choose what I think, I choose how I feel about things.[/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't believe you! That's not a choice - I just can't help it because when I try to rationalize what your saying I come to the conclusion that only someone with superhuman control over their subconscious mental state could choose their feelings. If you can convince me you're superhuman then I would have no choice but to believe you. Whether I would then admit to you that I believe you is another issue. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

MaxUK

01-04-2003, 05:54 AM

Billy - you wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So, yes, someone who accepts God at the end of his life (see Luke 23.40-43 for the thief who accepted Christ minutes before he died and received assurance that day, that he would be in heaven)will be saved. As for the other person . . . I can't judge. But if in truth he rejected God and chose non-God, then he did not allow God to be his substitute, he did not accept His gift of grace, so he chooses to stay with sin. And sin will ultimately be destroyed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well I most certainly disagree!! Are you telling me that just because someone who has been a model citizen all their life doesn't say four words (I am a christian) then they are classed as a 'sinner' not worthy of a place in heaven!! But that a mass murdering, wife beating paedophile who has 'found God' is??!!
I am astounded at your answer as it makes no rational sense to me at all.

God is 'all seeing' correct?? So he will have seen the lives of these two people and can surely judge for Himself who is more worthy of a place in Heaven??

Max

fns

01-04-2003, 06:45 AM

Ok Rik, I know this discussion is getting old, so I'll just provide one example. I'm controlling my thoughts, and feelings about you right now. I could think that you are an argumentative jerk, but, I choose to look on the bright side, so I think you are an alright person. That is how I feel about you, based on my choice of thoughts. Of course, depending on what you post, I may change my feelings, but at this moment, you are o.k. in my book.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jeslrs

01-04-2003, 06:54 AM

Now, now kids. Let's not fight. Personal attacks during a debate says that the attacker has lost the argument. You both attacked at the same time, one offensivly, the other defensivly. I'd say it's a draw. I followed you both through the discussion and to tell you the truth... I think you both won by making good arguments. Talk later, have a good day today, and a better day tomorrow.
Bye for now.
Dick

Rik

01-04-2003, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fns:
I could think that you are an argumentative jerk, but, I choose to look on the bright side, so I think you are an alright person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you're denying your true feelings. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

Bob S.

01-04-2003, 10:17 PM

"you either believe it or you don't. BUT if you choose not to believe me then so be it!"

And thus Rik, you choose to believe it or not. You choose which side maked the most sense. Methinks we are arguing over details while agreeing on the major point.

"And are you telling me the sky is blue? Prove it!"

Actually, right now, it is black, or actually a very dark greenish color. There are no stars showing behind the clouds, but they clouds are being lit somewhat by light pollution so there is also a bit of a yellowish twinge as well.

And so that we may not have such a disagreement in the future, please describe the color blue.

Bob S.

Rik

01-05-2003, 02:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bob S.:
And so that we may not have such a disagreement in the future, please describe the color blue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's easy - it's the same colour as the way I feel when I'm depressed. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

Frank R

01-05-2003, 03:16 AM

In the study of logic, one of the first things you learn is there are different kinds of truths. Each is equally as valid as the others.
First is what we call scientific truths. (i.e.-water boils at 212 degrees (F) or 100 degrees Celsius at sea level). I can go to sea level, heat water to 212 degrees and see if it boils.
Second are historical truths. (i.e.-George Washington was the first president of the United States.) We accept this because we have considerable evidence that he was and little if any that says he wasn't.
Third are agreed upon truths. (i.e. - If we take a number we call 2 and add it number we call 3 the total will be a number we call 5. There are seven parts of speech to the English language.) We have established these as "true".
Fourth are intuitive truths. (i.e. -My wife loves me. God loves me.) Since I believe these to be true, they are true, at least to me.

Hence, when we debate some issues, people will disagree with a historical truth statement and attempt to say that because it is not a scientific truth statement, it not true. Let us at least recognize what type of truth we are discussing. I cannot prove by using scientific, historical or agreed upon truths that my wife loves me but that does not mean it isn't true.

fns

01-05-2003, 04:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jeslrs:
Now, now kids. Let's not fight. Personal attacks during a debate says that the attacker has lost the argument. You both attacked at the same time, one offensivly, the other defensivly. I'd say it's a draw. I followed you both through the discussion and to tell you the truth... I think you both won by making good arguments. Talk later, have a good day today, and a better day tomorrow.
Bye for now.
Dick <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>None of my statements were meant to be an attack. If anyone took them as such, please accept my apology. I don't attack people in forums or message boards. I was sincere in all my statements. That is as plain as I can say it.

jeslrs

01-05-2003, 09:06 AM

Right on Frank R, right on. You said it, beautifully. Good work.

fns... sorry if I took your reply the wrong way. It looked like an attack at first glance. I won't make that mistake again. Thank you for taking the time to respond. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rik

01-05-2003, 09:47 AM

So anyway Max, did you get an answer to the contentious question?

Rik

BrianM

01-06-2003, 07:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MaxUK:
A bad, wicked man becomes a 'Christian' two days before he dies while another man is the world's kindest person, always helping others, selfless and kind and dies without believing in God.

Who goes to heaven and why??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It depends on what religion you are basing your answer from. Also, even within Christianity, many differing views exist. The Calvanist beleive that man's will has no influence on God's will, thus the saved are predetermined, as well as everything else that goes on in the universe, including Satan's work. Thus the idea of choice by man is just the way it seems to man, but God makes man make the apparent choices. While the Armenian contingent thinks that God's grace has to be earned, and can be earned by Man through faith and work and mans choice. I beleive there may be scriptures to support and rebut both theories. However, most Churches pull out what they want of the two theories, they say that God controls everthing, but you have to choose to be a Christian, and by the way, it will just cost you 10%.