True reason for the holiday season.

[nacktman]

How many of you caught the special on History International last night about how and why we celebrate x-mas?

It WILL be an eye-opener for some. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shocked.gif

[shãybare]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
I missed it. Elaborate.

[nacktman]

shay, it was a special tracing the history and reasons for the winter holiday season now commonly called x-mas.

It laid out the very same said things I and others have posted on this forum and have been attacked by the small and simple minded for it.

What is now known as x-mas is a combination of many traditions though two dominate ... the Roman Saturnalia celebrating the birth of Mithra the Sun God and Life in general as well as the Celtic(read: Germanic Celt as far as the name goes) celebration of Yule celebrating Life, Family and Friends.
It has only been a "big deal" as far as a celebration called christmas since the mid 19th century when the the prudishness of the puritans was pushed away in favor of letting the kids be kids instead of mini adults.
Up until then it's celebration was even BANNED by almost the entire spectrum of protestant sects (exculding the Lutherans and Episcopalians).

The wildly ribald drunken revelery of the old Roman celebration was held over until the time of the first crusades and was replaced with the more sedate ribald drunken revelery of the Celtic celebration until the protestant reformation at which time the celebration just became a ribald celebration until the puritans mucked it up.

The reason it is called 'christmas' is people are lazy in their spoken language and the catholic mass of the nativity known as 'Christ's Mass' was shortened to 'christmas'.
This mass was moved from the spring to the winter after the Council of Bishops met in Nicea to lure people away from the celebration of Mithra (who by the way was born on December 25th according to the Roman lore) and the Winter Solstice celebration known as Yule ... mighty odd they picked the 25th of December, now don't you think?

I expect the usual attackers to begin knee-jerking and so forth now ... some just cannot deal with the truth, facts or reality it seems.

[usmc1]

Christmas has always been quite secular for my family; baking, music, trees, gifts, sharing, eating, and so forth. One little branch is Irish-Catholic and for years they did the midnight mass thing: Irish style, load up on Tom & Jerries, or Old Bushmills and stay in the rear of the church and try not to breath on the nuns who taught them in grade school while taking nips from someone's smuggled flask.

But, as to the christers and thumpers who insist that Christmas is all about their religious training and viewpoints...why bother arguing? the truth is that the position they take is prima facie evidence that they just are ignorant of the facts and history. They are the intellectual equivalent of flat-earthers.

But, Nacktman, we need to keep in mind that it is what provides them comfort and not provoke them...Hah!

You'll not convince them of anything, anyway. Their minds are closed and they stay comfortable with that.

Merry X-mas and Happy Holidays.

[Boreas]

Thanks for the info Nacktman. I had heard variations of that. Many of the carols we sing are actually borrowed from the Pagans as I understand it. Again, it was a way to lure people across from Paganism to Christianity. I think Dec 25 was also chosen symbolically because it is when the light starts to return and Christ is symbolized by light. Of course, it means that only those of us in the northern hemisphere should be celebrating Christ's mass at this time of the year. The southern hemisphere should be celebrating (if celebrating the return of light and the symbolism of light and Christ) in June.

[hm0504]

When people merrily wish me "Happy Holidays!" or "Seasons Greetings!", I immediately turn in disgust and indignation and in a snarling tone let them know quite directly that I am offended by their attack on Christmas and Jesus and my identity as a Christian (just as my local right-wing radio hosts keep reminding me to do) -- I figure that is, after all, what Jesus would do. Such insolence!

Merry Christmas Everyone!

[sw1sweendog]

jee,and i always thought it was about spending a crap load of money. so wall stret has a good month.boy am i stupid.....lol

[kphoger]

yes, the church has always had a habit of hijacking pagan holidays. and deities, too, if you think about the catholic church in latin america. i get a kick out of christian christmas carols whose texts aren't biblical. for one thing, the bible never mentions angels singing -- speaking in unison, yes, but never singing (original languages, english versions often read "sing"). it was only said to be a "silent night" in maccabees, which protestants don't consider to be part of the canon of scripture. and then there are all the ones involving winter and snow, when biblical references point to christ being born in the spring.

but, all that is just history, and history is full of funny/crappy things like that. the "true meaning of christmas," though is still christ's birth -- unless, of course, you worship those old roman or celtic gods. people try to be p.c. by saying "the true meaning of christmas" without saying "jesus," but what exactly is that supposed to mean? i guess we're supposed to fill in the blank, but what is left? without jesus, what is the "true meaning of christmas"?

spending time with family? has our society gotten to the point that we only dedicate one day per year to spending time with family?

being nice, sharing, and appreciating one another? isn't that what thanksgiving is?

maxing out your credit cards and making sure you didn't get someone a cheaper gift than he got you? well, usually people say "true meaning of christmas" in opposition to this mentality, but whom are we really kidding?

yes, the date for christmas is far from halo-encircled.
yes, celebrating christmas was no big deal for most of the church's history.
yes, we're sliding closer to not being allowed to talk about jesus on the day which remembers his birth.
but, it's still christ-mas, and its celebration (especially throughout the history of the western world) is tied at the hip to jesus' birth. if you'd rather not even go there, then why say "merry christmas" at all? just tell folks to have a nice day off from work.

and, if you want to have some fun, next time you hear someone talk about the "true meaning of christmas," and you're pretty sure they're not talking about jesus, ask them what the true meaning of christmas is. see if they can give you an answer without stumbling. it'll be fun, i promise!

====

I'm crawling on my hands and knees,
a thousand miles away.
This time of year, you're all I hear:
"You've got the power to save."
Omniscent, omnipotent,
all loving and all good....
If only
you'd fill this empty hole inside!
Why don't you live up
to your reputation this time?

The world is crashing in on me;
I thought that I was fine,
I thought that I was in control,
that I could kick the wine.
Omniscent, omnipotent:
I thought that these were mine....
I'm crawling on my hands and knees,
I'm here today because
You're the one who grants our wishes --
You're Santa Claus!

Wait a minute!
This happens every year,
Yet, somehow, you ignore our plea.
It's becoming very clear:
"Crawling on my hands and knees" --
Who's kidding whom here?
Santa Claus ain't got the answers,
But what's this I hear

About God living among us?
Born as a man,
In Bethlehem,
a farming town in a war-stricken land,
Sent to bear our pain,
to set the captives free....
O God, I know what they're talking about:
That captive is me!
Praise to God,
for Jesus Christ has set me free!

Rejoice, rejoice!
Immanuel has come to thee, O Israel!

[luvnaturism]

It's interesting that there is something about this season that brings out the need in some who post here to insult others who have a different point of view. The same thing happened last year, so the hate expressed in some of the posts above is just a rerun.

Amazing as it may seem, there are Christians who are fully aware of the various historical traditions connected with the season. Some of us even attend churches where teachers explain that Jesus couldn't have been born in winter, and where the ancient pagan origins of modern celebrations are reviewed. In those same churches we manage to celebrate the holidays without the need to demean those who hold to different points of view.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luvnaturism:
It's interesting that there is something about this season that brings out the need in some who post here to insult others who have a different point of view. The same thing happened last year, so the hate expressed in some of the posts above is just a rerun.

Amazing as it may seem, there are Christians who are fully aware of the various historical traditions connected with the season. Some of us even attend churches where teachers explain that Jesus couldn't have been born in winter, and where the ancient pagan origins of modern celebrations are reviewed. In those same churches we manage to celebrate the holidays without the need to demean those who hold to different points of view. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the way Jon Stewart handled the issue recently:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200512080005
(be sure to watch the video)

[usmc1]

Hey Southern Illinois dude,

Well, I for one can tell you what the true meaning of Xmas is for me without stumbling. It is precisely what I said it was earlier, a time to relax, sing, cook old family cookie recipes, bake, give and receive presents, watch silly old black & white weepy movie, watch the Grinch and Frosty, feel nostalgic and engage in maudlin sentimentality, visit friends and indulge the fantasies of the little tads, and remember the joys of past holidays, among other things. Yep, taht is my true meaning of Christmas, and secular as all get out. Give baby Jesus nary a thought.

We don't max out our credit cards or overspend. and yes, our culture has changed to the point that in order to pursue careers, maintain marriages and further educations families to scatter all over the country. Christmas and Thanksgiving are times which many families devote to overcomiong those separations and get together.

Many of us ahve very strong Spiritual connections to God which are not part of the pagan tradition but which do not include Jesus as some sort of God/Man. We see him as a powerful spiritual teacher and exemplar, but we know the history of the search for that which we call God and the evolution of Constantine's Christianity and the bible far too well to celebrate the holiday as the birth of the baby Jesus.

So, for us it is a royal crock of crap to have people insist that we adhere to a very narrow and uninformed dogma regarding Christmas. That to us, is contrary to the true meaning of Christmas.

For us, Christmas is a secular holiday. You want to celebrate it as a Christian holiday, cool, that's your choice but it is not ok for you to insist that your viewpoint is the "true meaning of Christmas" and taht somehow those who do not share that view are failing poor little baby Jesus.

I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. Fine, I'm happy and content to let you pursue your wrongness--I just wish you could provide me the same courtesy--I think your Jesus would have.

And guess what, I learned this stuff in Southern Illinois, not far from you over in White County in the heart of Little Egypt.

[harveym]

All I can say is Happy Yule-Kwa-Hanu-Mas!

[Fuzzy Nuts]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by harveym:
All I can say is Happy Yule-Kwa-Hanu-Mas!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like I was back on Maui!!!

[tinner666]

Wellllllll...............
Happy whatever. Peace for all is all I hope for.

[Bob S.]

Isn't it Festivus for the rest of us?

Bob S.

[kphoger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For us, Christmas is a secular holiday. You want to celebrate it as a Christian holiday, cool, that's your choice but it is not ok for you to insist that your viewpoint is the "true meaning of Christmas" and taht somehow those who do not share that view are failing poor little baby Jesus.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow. we certainly don't agree about everything, but that was well said. it seems strange to me to consider christmas a merely secular holiday, but i understand your reasoning behind it. may we can.....all just get along! wouldn't that be trippy?

====

yes, festivus. do they have festivus cards? because that would be cool.

[EricNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
Isn't it Festivus for the rest of us?

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/eusa_dance.gifThat was the best episode of that entire show!!!! What was the name of the "pole" that they used in place of a tree?

[Swimguy]

[QUOTE]
Some of us even attend churches where teachers explain that Jesus couldn't have been born in winter
[QUOTE]

Yes, I remember learning at a very young age from my Sunday School teachers that Jesus was really born in the Spring. We were just taught that it didn't matter when we celebrated his birth, as long as we lived according to his teachings. That meant being kind to everyone.

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong about this season and holiday. Each just simply believes in the season as they choose. Celebrate it as you feel whatever that celebration is. It doesn't matter if you celebrate the Yule/Winter Solstice, or the Christian birth of Christ... celebrate.

The one common thread is that this is a celebratory time of the year closing out the old year and welcoming the new year. It is the one time of the year where people collectively come together with friends and family and for one day .... one day out of one year, the spirit of being, being together is done by all people.

To each a Merry Celebration!
Allie

[Nude in the North]

Geez!
Next I suppose your gonna tell me that George Washington wasn't born on Presidents day.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/freak.gif

[tinhfwv]

Trying to make a controversy out of Christmas seems strange to me. Relax everybody and enjoy the season. Celebrate life and each other. Be peaceful and love as much as you can. Read Allie’s post (above) several more times.

[Sanslines]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tinhfwv:
Trying to make a controversy out of Christmas seems strange to me. Relax everybody and enjoy the season. Celebrate life and each other. Be peaceful and love as much as you can. Read Allie’s post (above) several more times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! Allie's post is a good one and should be taken to heart. Can't we all agree to celebrate whatever we chose to celebrate without attacking or provoking each other? The time for controversy has ended. The time for peace has arrived.

[shãybare]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
My wish is for Peace on Earth. And I'm not even a beauty contestant.

[nudeM]

Dittos Shay. That makes two of us. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/smoking.gif

[LamontCranston]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My wish is for Peace on Earth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Then perhaps we all should mark Yom Kippur and the season of Ramadan with a national outpouring of "Happy Holidays."

Wouldn't that be a bigger step towards peace and understanding than hanging lights at my house and buying ties for people who don't want them?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Relax everybody and enjoy the season. Celebrate life and each other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Better done without the crush of advertising, credit debt, endless music repetition, and expectations (even demands) of giving from everyone everywhere.

I wish it were a quiet celebration and not a national retail industry media extraviganza growing bigger and bigger with the passing years.

[Bob S.]

Here's more about Festivus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus).

Now as for the reason of the season, I stopped enjoying getting presents many years ago. I stopped being a Christian years before that. I personally think too much is done on the outside. I am glad that Hanukkah is still a low key event.

When I have my own family, I think I'll tend to concentrate less on the showiness of the holidays.

Bob S.

[David77]

I saw on TV recently that in Japan they are celebrating a secular christmas with gift giving and Santa Claus.

[shãybare]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LamontCranston:
Better done without the crush of advertising, credit debt, endless music repetition, and expectations (even demands) of giving from everyone everywhere.

I wish it were a quiet celebration and not a national retail industry media extraviganza growing bigger and bigger with the passing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/cool4.gif
I agree with you, Mike S., but I don't see that horse being turned around any too soon. Not while there's money to be made.

[usmc1]

Well, I'll be truthful guys, it's like I always say, when you point a finger with that little fisty pointy thing, there's always three fingers pointing right back at you.

If enough really felt that overspending at Xmas was bad, they wouldn't have the retail sales that they do--don't balme the stores or advertisers! Pogo had this one nailed!

Personally, I celebrate Christmas the way I wish; secular, no spasms of debt or throwing money around, and den up pretty close to home and munch out and enjoy and relax.

I did 99% of my shopping online this year, and ran by that famous French boutique, Tarjey, for some stocking stuffers.

My choice. OK?

Now, if others want to wear sackcloth and self-flagellate, cool, that's their deal--as long as they do not insist that is the only true way.

And, if others wish to worship at the altar of debt and conspicous consumption and rabid spending on meaningless ticky-tacky, that's their deal--as long as they do not try to force me to join in.

So, my point is this: Ease up on each other, if you want to go secular--go secular, and don't criticize those who want to worship or spend--unless they try to force their views on you. If you want to believe that the deal is all about Jesus, that's fine..but, don't try to push it off on others.

And those who lament the orgiastic spending and consumption, just don't do it, but, it's none of your business how others choose. Now, is it?

And, listen up, there's always others who believe as you do that you can hook up and celebrate with, regardless your beliefs.

[Naturist Mark]

It is your patriotic duty to shop 'til you drop, the presnit says so. (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/20/bush-shopping/)

If you don't, you are just letting the terrorists win! (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/news2/2006/12/lets_go_shoppin.html)

And as for you hippy communist jihadist huggers with your " Peace on Earth (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/04/iraq.usa.shirt.reut/) " slogans and peace signs (http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061204/OPINION02/612040325) - we are onto you too!
-Mark

[usmc1]

Mark, Mark, Mark. My main man! Dude you gotta get over this obsession that anyone gives a hill of hammered rat dung as to what that miserable little nitwit says anymore.

And you'll be comforted in knowing that this traitorous, retrograde bull-hippy didn't spend all that much.

I know, I know, let my country down again.

[Boreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
It is your patriotic duty to shop 'til you drop, the presnit says so. (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/20/bush-shopping/)

If you don't, you are just letting the terrorists win! (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/news2/2006/12/lets_go_shoppin.html)

And as for you hippy communist jihadist huggers with your " Peace on Earth (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/04/iraq.usa.shirt.reut/) " slogans and peace signs (http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061204/OPINION02/612040325) - we are onto you too!
-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is truly a sad state of affairs! Of course using an avoidance such as shopping to deal with unpleasantness is one sign of an addiction. Does the person recommending this action have any issues with addictions??? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/confused.gif

[kphoger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> endless music repetition </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AY-MEN!! (baptist pronunciation)
christmas is on december 25, and then there are those "12 days of christmas" we've all sung about. it really gets to me that they start playing xmas music on the radio in october, but i can deal with that. but, what happened to it all now that the 25th is past? it's still the christmas season! now, when i actually WANT to hear those songs, i can't find them anywhere on the dial...
AARRGGHH http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/no.gif

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kphoger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> endless music repetition </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AY-MEN!! (baptist pronunciation)
christmas is on december 25, and then there are those "12 days of christmas" we've all sung about. it really gets to me that they start playing xmas music on the radio in october, but i can deal with that. but, what happened to it all now that the 25th is past? it's still the christmas season! now, when i actually WANT to hear those songs, i can't find them anywhere on the dial...
AARRGGHH http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/no.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be accurate, in the Christian calendar, Christmas starts on the evening of Dec. 24 and lasts to Jan 6 (the 12 days of Christmas). It is silly to wish anyone a "Merry Christmas" prior to Dec 24, because that is Advent. And after Jan 6 is Epiphany. [1]

If Christians followed the tradition of giving a gift each day of Christmas, then 11 of the gifts could be bought for cheap on the Boxing Day sales. Makes you think, huh?!

[1] http://blog.netesq.com/2004/11/christian-church-calendar-2004-2005.html