Not So Friendly Fire? - Pat Tillman MURDERED

[Naturist Mark]

http://www.informationliberation.com/files/270707tillman.jpg http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/09/25/ba_tillman.jpg Former NFL star Pat Tillman, who along with his brother (a minor league baseball player) walked away from a multi-million dollar contract to enlist in the army to fight the terrorists and capture Bin Ladin after 9/11 was killed in Afghanistan in 2004.

At first the Pentagon announced that Tillman was killed by enemy fire while leading troops in a courageous attack against enemy forces - for which he was posthumously awarded a silver star.

Later it developed that it wasn't enemy forces that killed him, but friendly fire in the heat of battle.

Now it has developed that there were no enemy forces, only friendly forces.

Now ... the ORIGINAL medical reports by the first doctors to examine Tillman's body clearly state that he was killed by 3 closely spaced M-16 rounds into the forehead from a distance of no more than 10 meters. It was broad daylight. He could not have been mistaken for an enemy. There were no other rounds found in any of the equipment or wounds on any of the soldiers in his company. Apparently the 'wild fire' only struck in a tightly compact cluster on Cpl Tillman's forehead, nowhere else.

I'm too weary to even put together a narrative about this appalling story. Make your own, here are some facts:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> Tillman's enlistment was a big deal, he received a congratulatory letter from SecDef Rumsfeld and was considered a recruiting asset.
<LI> Tillman turned down officer training, preferring to be a fighter on the ground as an enlisted soldier.
<LI> Scholar/Athlete/Geek - A natural leader irrespective of his celebrity status, he was extremely popular among his fellow troops. He was very well read and intelligent, he established a library of literary classics for the soldiers to read during down time, Tillman was a disciplined writer who had kept a personal journal since his youth. He would read poetry aloud and mentored an aspiring poet in his company. Football hero/soldier/intellectual - clearly he was a force to be reckoned with.
<LI>Although gung-ho about the Afghanistan war (he was enthusiastic to take the war to the people who nurtured al Qaeda, and to run down Bin Ladin) he was a scathing critic of the Iraq war - which he described as illegal.
<LI>In his many letters home, he became increasingly disgusted with administration and military leaders.
<LI> He urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in the 2004 election.
<LI> Tillman had even begun to arrange meetings with anti-war icons like Noam Chomsky upon his return to America - he clearly intended to take an active high profile role in the anti-war movement.
<LI>After his death, Tillman's body armor and clothes were burned. Many of his personal effects, including his journal were also burned or lost.
<LI> "The medical evidence did not match up with the scenario as described" wrote one of the doctors who examined Tillman's body. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case. "He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no."
<LI> Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.
<LI> The House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform is currently investigating - or at least trying to investigate. Amazingly - truly - the Bush administration is refusing to provide the key documents under a claim of executive privilege - a doctrine which protects the ability of advisors to give candid advice to the president without fear of later exposure - something which could not possibly apply to documents about the Tillman investigation unless the president was directly involved. [/list]

Draw your own connections. General Wesley Clark has stated that he believes Tillman was executed on orders from the highest levels of government.

I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP:

AP: New Details on Tillman's Death (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/26/ap3958728.html)
BREAKING: A Whole New Level of Horror (http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/26/late-nite-fdl-a-whole-new-level-of-horror/)
White House, Pentagon cite executive privilege to hold up documents on friendly fire victim Tillman (http://rawstory.com/news/2007/White_House_Pentagon_hold_up_documents_0713.html)
FAMILY DEMANDS THE TRUTH (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL&type=printable)
Was Tillman Murdered? AP Gets New Documents (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003617692)
Still more White House secrecy -- this time in the Tillman investigation (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/14/tillman/index.html)
New Evidence Indicates Pat Tillman Was Executed (http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=23134)

-Mark
http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/09/25/ba_tillman087_ckh.jpg

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
Draw your own connections. General Wesley Clark has stated that he believes Tillman was executed on orders from the highest levels of government.
I saw some of this on the news tonight. It is beginning to sound like a politically motivated execution.

[Bobx23456]

Hmmmm? 3 closely spaced rounds. I've read that the current issue M-16 is designed to fire 3 rapid rounds instead of fully automatic much of the time. (Do one of you military guys know for sure about this?) If true, an accidetnal discharge while pointed at a fellow American would put 3 closely spaced rounds into whatever direction it happened to be aiming. The placing of 3 closely spaced rounds is therefore not eveidence of much of anything other than it was a typical M-16.

How it happened to be pointing at his forehead when discharged, now that's the rest of the story. Has anyone said anyting about that yet?

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
Hmmmm? 3 closely spaced rounds. I've read that the current issue M-16 is designed to fire 3 rapid rounds instead of fully automatic much of the time. (Do one of you military guys know for sure about this?) If true, an accidetnal discharge while pointed at a fellow American would put 3 closely spaced rounds into whatever direction it happened to be aiming. The placing of 3 closely spaced rounds is therefore not eveidence of much of anything other than it was a typical M-16.

How it happened to be pointing at his forehead when discharged, now that's the rest of the story. Has anyone said anyting about that yet?

Blessings
Bob

Bob, with as much patience as I can muster in the face of such arrant disregard for thought, a tightly clustered group requires that someone aims, steadies and controls the weapon.

Misfires scatter rounds, not cluster them!

[naturalmanwa]

I have read the newspaper reports and TV reports on this and it sounds like a COVERUP big time! Even if the accuracy of the news reports is questioned, there has been enough evidence on the part of the people connected to look into this very carefully. It sounds as if he was executed to keep his mouth shut by the military. On whose orders? good question, maybe the same person who likes to give up CIA identities!

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by naturalmanwa:
I have read the newspaper reports and TV reports on this and it sounds like a COVERUP big time! Even if the accuracy of the news reports is questioned, there has been enough evidence on the part of the people connected to look into this very carefully. It sounds as if he was executed to keep his mouth shut by the military. On whose orders? good question, maybe the same person who likes to give up CIA identities!


Back in the 1970s it was said that more lieutenants were shot in the back while leading troops than were killed by enemy fire. You get all those young hot heads out playing with guns and many things happen.

I have a hard time with great global conspiracy theories. Most incidents happen locally for local reasons. A global conspiracy team would have made it look more like "enemy fire" that it did. Instad of leaping to global conspiracy theories or Rep-Dem political conspiracies, I would look first for some soldier who's toes were stepped on, or some drug deal gone bad, or about to be reported to management, or something local like that.

Yea, I know, global conspiracy theories are much more fun.

Blessings
Bob

[Naturist Mark]

Bob, with as much patience as I can muster in the face of such arrant disregard for thought
Oh c'mon, I think Bob made an entirely valid point. For the three rounds to have been entirely separate shots from an M16 - and the ONLY rounds that struck any person or equipment would suggest marksmanship skills exceeding those of Lee Harvey Oswald (less the magic bullet).

To have come from a 3 shot burst makes sense.
A deliberate, steady, well aimed burst - which I think is the source of the medical examiner's conclusion that the shot had to have come from within 10 meters. If shot from further away the spread would have to be greater - unless individually placed by a sharpshooter under ideal circumstances.

[Naturist Mark]

Instad of leaping to global conspiracy theories or Rep-Dem political conspiracies, I would look first for some soldier who's toes were stepped on, or some drug deal gone bad, or about to be reported to management, or something local like that.
Indeed, and there is some evidence to support that. But it still begs the question why a criminal investigation was quashed. What could be so important that it was better to let a murderer off scott free?

[hm0504]

Even if the White House was involved in executing Tillman for his free-thinking views, so what? I'm sure a little thing like that isn't going to cause the American people to get all uppity about the current Administration. After all, being anything less than 110% behind Bush is simply being anti-American.

[hm0504]

Wikipidia has a rather good, and very up to date, entry on Tillman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman

[brainyguy9999]

Originally posted by usmc1:
Bob, with as much patience as I can muster in the face of such arrant disregard for thought, a tightly clustered group requires that someone aims, steadies and controls the weapon.

Misfires scatter rounds, not cluster them!

An accidental discharge doesn't necessarily mean a wildly scattered pattern. Nor does a clustered group indicate aiming, steadying, and control. If a soldier was to fall onto his weapon, I can see that the weight of his body on the rifle would steady and "control" the weapon, thus preventing it from kicking wildly. If it was set for a 3 round discharge, it would have rapidly fired the three rounds.

Many people have been shot without being "aimed" at. It's called an accidental shooting. If Tillman's forehead had been in the path of the slugs, then he would have been shot by the accidental discharge.

Now, I'm not saying that someone didn't give orders to have him killed. I don't have any conclusive information to say one way or another. But to dismiss someone's rational questions and claiming they have an "arrant disregard for thought" is both disrespectful and wrong.

Can someone familiar with the weapon advise whether it is indeed capable of being set to fire a burst of 3 rounds?

Stay nude.

bg

[brainyguy9999]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:For the three rounds to have been entirely separate shots from an M16 - and the ONLY rounds that struck any person or equipment would suggest marksmanship skills exceeding those of Lee Harvey Oswald (less the magic bullet).

To have come from a 3 shot burst makes sense.
A deliberate, steady, well aimed burst - which I think is the source of the medical examiner's conclusion that the shot had to have come from within 10 meters. If shot from further away the spread would have to be greater - unless individually placed by a sharpshooter under ideal circumstances.

I disagree. I am by no means a "sharp shooter", but I can put 3 rounds nearly through the same hole on a target from 10 meters with a 2" barrel .38 revolver. I have no doubt that a sharp shooter could put 3 rounds through the same hole at 50 meters with a rifle. A "cluster" at "closer than 10 meters" means average marksmanship at best.

If they were three separate trigger pulls, then it is likely the #2 and #3 shots were fired when Tillman was on the ground. The first shot through his forehead would have exploded the back of his head and caused his whole head to jerk. A second manual shot would have been difficult to place on his forehead during this head jerk. The third shot would have to be made while he was falling. To place those three rounds on his forehead manually would be exceptional. A more likely scenario is a burst of 3 rounds from close range that would reduce the scatter and enter his forehead in rapid succession. The "scatter" would be caused by the movement of his head.

Whether the shots were intentional or not is the big question.

Stay nude!!

bg

EDIT: I re-read your post. I guess I was asleep and didn't understand what you had written (that whole English language thing, I guess). But, it sounds like we're both on the same page, so I agree with what you said. Now, back to my nap...

Stay nude!

[usmc1]

Let me be clear.
It is my understanding that Army Special Ops use the M4 variant which does allow for 3-round bursts.

It is also my understanding that 10-meters is close to 33-yards, about a third of the length of a football field.

I can state from experience and with no equivocation that a 3-round burst striking a target in a group the size of a man's fist at this distance would be an outstanding feat of marksmanship with this particular weapon. It would not have a possibility of resulting from "accidental discharge" as was suggested. The tight grouping of the hits presupposes marksmanship, not carelessness.

Furthermore the 3-round burst of the M4 is really designed for close combat situations of 10-20 yards and allows for less experienced shooters to lay down fire in a rapid but not necessarily accurate manner.

If Tillman was killed by a 3-round group in the forehead those rounds were aimed not happenstance!

And, I've got to tell you this too. Range shooting with a pistol at 25 or 50 yards is just not comparable to combat situation fire with semi-automatic and automatic weapons--especially the M4 which one has to compensate for and shoot low.

The strength of this weapon is that it lays down a lot of fire in close quarters in a very short span of time. It is not wonderful in situations where great accuracy is required.

[jon71]

Ten meters is about 11 or 12 yards. I'm not trying to dispute the heart of what you're saying USMC1 but a meter is just a yard and a few inches.

[nacktman]

Do you want to know what a sniper thinks about the 'grouping'?

First, usmc1 is correct a grouping the size of a man's fist or smaller takes aiming from any distance. No accidental clustering of that size is possible from a rapid three round burst - the recoil of the weapon precludes that.

Second, It takes a good marksman at any distance ... notice I did not say sniper or even expert, though the farther the distance the better the marksman has to be ... to cluster a group of shots the size of a man's fist.

The rounds had to have been aimed. Whether on orders,out of spite,etc., is what is really the question.

The 'cover-up' is par for the course with the cabal and their refusal to allow an investigation much less cooperate with any attempts to do an investigation only paints the guilty more guilty ... guilty of what is again the question.

But what is one more murder to these guys anyway?

[tinner666]

Originally posted by usmc1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobx23456:
Hmmmm? 3 closely spaced rounds. I've read that the current issue M-16 is designed to fire 3 rapid rounds instead of fully automatic much of the time. (Do one of you military guys know for sure about this?) If true, an accidetnal discharge while pointed at a fellow American would put 3 closely spaced rounds into whatever direction it happened to be aiming. The placing of 3 closely spaced rounds is therefore not eveidence of much of anything other than it was a typical M-16.

How it happened to be pointing at his forehead when discharged, now that's the rest of the story. Has anyone said anyting about that yet?

Blessings
Bob

Bob, with as much patience as I can muster in the face of such arrant disregard for thought, a tightly clustered group requires that someone aims, steadies and controls the weapon.

Misfires scatter rounds, not cluster them! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I checked, a round in the head drops a person FAST. Whether deliberate of not, 3 on auto will hit closely, unless the weapon is 'swinging' or otherwise in movement.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the conspiracy charge, just pointing something out.

[NakedTao]

I'm inclined to agree with you. What better propaganda than to have a high-profile soldier who's critical of Bush's war policy killed, the murder covered up, and in turn using this soldier to promote war policy. Nothing from this administration surprises me, so I won't be shocked if this ends up being the case. Anyway...

[usmc1]

Originally posted by jon71:
Ten meters is about 11 or 12 yards. I'm not trying to dispute the heart of what you're saying USMC1 but a meter is just a yard and a few inches.

Wrote yards meant feet and should have been more careful with thinking through my distance analogy--more like a first down than the distance of the field. Thanks for correcting my careless error--I think it was confusing my attempt at clarifcation--DANG!.

But, upon examination, perhaps my error was serendipitous since the troop with Tillman when he was killed put the distance of the shooters at more than 10 but less than 50 yards. The quote excerpted from SI is below.

But, you're right, it does not detract from the issue that a 3-round "rapid fire" burst from the M4 version of the M16 clustered in a group the size of a man's fist requires aim, breath control, a steady squeeze and a damn fine fine shooter. It does not merely happen.

Nacktman adds the issue of recoil, Tinner adds the physical response of the first round's impact on the target, and then you add it the vagaries of this particular weapon and you can rule out "accidental discharge".

<span class="ev_code_RED">EXCERPTED FROM SI</span>
"...medical examiners said the bullet holes in Tillman's head were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

O'Neal said the shooters were "close, close enough for me to recognize them, but they sure weren't 10 yards away. They were further than that. I've thought about this plenty of times. They wouldn't have been more than 50 yards away."

Another key issue raised in the transcripts involved never-before-mentioned snipers who were apparently there when the firing broke out, got out of their vehicle and walked alongside the convoy, cutting up the canyon firing.

O'Neal said Saturday that he knew there were snipers in the convoy that fired at them, but that he can't remember their names. Were they fired at by the snipers? "Not that I know of," O'Neal told the AP.

His recollections of the snipers reflected other testimony in the transcripts, including answers given by Capt. Richard Scott, who conducted the first, immediate investigation:

Q: Are you aware whether or not any U.S. forces snipers were at the scene?

Scott: They were in serial two.

Q: And, and do you know whose GMV (ground mobility vehicle) they were traveling in?

Scott: I don't think they were in a GMV. I think they were in a cargo Humvee.

Q: Okay. Do you know if the snipers fired any rounds during this incident involving CPL Tillman?

Scott: I do not, no."

[NudeAl]

I just saw on the news that they are thinking of bringing up on charges a retired army general. He ultimatly had responsibility for the area. It seems he may have falsified reports, hmmm? If this were to take place I think it would be extrordinary, I cannot remember the last time I heard of a General officer being brought up on charges it is rare.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by naturalmanwa:
I have read the newspaper reports and TV reports on this and it sounds like a COVERUP big time! Even if the accuracy of the news reports is questioned, there has been enough evidence on the part of the people connected to look into this very carefully. It sounds as if he was executed to keep his mouth shut by the military. On whose orders? good question, maybe the same person who likes to give up CIA identities!


Back in the 1970s it was said that more lieutenants were shot in the back while leading troops than were killed by enemy fire. You get all those young hot heads out playing with guns and many things happen.

I have a hard time with great global conspiracy theories. Most incidents happen locally for local reasons. A global conspiracy team would have made it look more like "enemy fire" that it did. Instad of leaping to global conspiracy theories or Rep-Dem political conspiracies, I would look first for some soldier who's toes were stepped on, or some drug deal gone bad, or about to be reported to management, or something local like that.

Yea, I know, global conspiracy theories are much more fun.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a couple of quicks thoughts.

Here's a line that has resonated through history and was the source of untold "unintended" misery as the result of an ad hoc conspiracy: "Will no one ride me of this meddlesome priest?

For those who need to Google that reference, your keywords will be Henry II and Thomas Becket.

It does not take a lot to put some things into motion. It does not require a "global conspiracy" for a conspiracy to take place, merely the right words to the wrong person or vice versa.

Initially we were told that Tillman had died "in action" of the result of engagement with "the enemy".

Then, as the result of family and friends and other "interested parties" pushing for answers, that cover story became untenable and we were told that maybe his death resulted from friendly fire.

Now, again due to the persistence of friends, family and "interested" parties, the second story of friendly fire is beginning to unravel.

A three-star has been asked to reach in the drawer for his forty-five and it appears that it is hoped that his "discipline" will close the case.

I don't think so. Those friends and families and "interested parties" are not about to let go. A grouping the size of a man's fist from an M16-M4 requires aim and weapon control, particularly at 10 to 30 yards. T'warnt no accidental shooting that killed Tillman.

[NudeAl]

I don't think the General is going to, eat his gun as they say. I think he will lay low as much as he can, he couldn't be located for comment today, however when all is said and done a lot more will get said than gets done. I think we will boo hoo alot we will whine about the unknown men in black who did this terrible thing and no one will ever know what truely happened. We will p*ss and moan and complain and nothing will happen. The general will have his pension reduced but he will go on.

No one will ever be brought to account for this other than the General will have a reduced pension and a black mark on his record.

[NudeAl]

So now a bridge has fallen and the nation is distracted. Will again justice be denied? I think so.

I have had a few discussions with some of my comrades and believe it or not the only person remotely concerned about this matter is the commanding officer. He is a tree hugger and a bio-diesel kind of guy from Seattle, Washington so I guess this should come as no surprise to me.

I am none the less amazed. We have had contact with the unit we are replacing in Iraq and they have suffered their first casualties now, due of course to a roadside bomb, read IED. Now for the first time in some in my unit are comming to grips with the fact we may very well have a few casualties this time around. I did not loose anyone on my first and only trip to Iraq, the reserve unit I am now a part of didn't loose anyone durring the units deployment in 2004 but now that we have the honor of escourting convoys and providing security I think we will loose some on this deployment. It is a matter of statistics you do enough road miles your odds of hitting an IED go up.

I guess this colors my thoughts as I think of the late Pat Tillman. He was a symbol of our courage and our resolve to strike back at those who would murder us in our own country. He turned down a lucrative career in the NFL in order to do this. I respect that but as has been pointed out here by others he really showed his courage and patriotism by taking a stand against what he believed was the illegal war in Iraq. What will be his legacy? Will his thoughts on this war in Iraq be known to the general public or remembered or even cared about? I don't know the jury is still out but as I have noticed the American public has the attention span of a gnat. We can barely remember what color tie we wore yesterday much less the reasons someone died in combat. Those kind of hard questions hurt our little brains so we would rather not have to engage that sensitive organ. I guess it's better we don't have to bother ourselves with thinking. Much better to leave all that thinking stuff to our elected officials. Thank God they have only our best interests at heart.

Here have a look at what the men on the ground say happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35717-2004Dec4_5.html
another
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/07/31/retired-genera...nsinger_n_58605.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/07/31/retired-general-kensinger_n_58605.html)

[tinner666]

Originally posted by NudeAl:
So now a bridge has fallen and the nation is distracted. Will again justice be denied? I think so.

I have hade a few discussions with some of my comrades and believe it or not the only person remotely concerned about this matter is the commanding officer. He is a tree hugger and a bio-diesel kind of guy from Seattle, Washington so I guess this should come as no surprise to me.

I am none the less amazed. We have had contact with the unit we are replacing in Iraq and they have suffered their first casualties now, due of course to a roadside bomb, read IED. Now for the first time in some in my unit are comming to grips with the fact we may very well have a few casualties this time around. I did not loose anyone on my first and only trip to Iraq, the reserve unit I am now a part of didn't loose anyone durring the units deployment in 2004 but now that we have the honor of escourting convoys and providing security I think we will loose some on this deployment. It is a matter of statistics you do enough road miles your odds of hitting an IED go up.

I guess this colors my thoughts as I think of the late Pat Tillman. He was a symbol of our courage and our resolve to strike back at those who would murder us in our own country. He turned down a lucrative career in the NFL in order to do this. I respect that but as has been pointed out here by others he really showed his courage and patriotism by taking a stand against what he believed was the illegal war in Iraq. What will be his legacy? Will his thoughts on this war in Iraq be known to the general public or remembered or even cared about? I don't know the jury is still out but as I have noticed the American public has the attention span of a gnat. We can barely remember what color tie we wore yesterday much less the reasons someone died in combat. Those kind of hard questions hurt our little brains so we would rather not have to engage that sensitive organ. I guess it's better we don't have to bother ourselves with thinking. Much better to leave all that thinking stuff to our elected officials. Thank God they have only our best interests at heart.

Take care friend.

[hm0504]

Great post NudeAl. All the best.

[Naturist Mark]

So now a bridge has fallen and the nation is distracted. Will again justice be denied? I think so.
Turns out the 'reprimands' aren't real: Reprimands In Tillman Case Won't Go In Officers' Records (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070810/tillman-friendly-fire/)