Freemasonry and Jesus [Archive]

Naturist Mark

04-23-2003, 07:24 PM

There are lots of things that are not religions.

Freemasonry is one of them.

Is everything that is not explicitly a part of Christianity incompatible with Christianity?

Nope.

Shall we dredge up some of the bogus Illuminati conspiracy theories about Freemasonry. Knights Templar, Holy Blood Holy Grail, Elders of Zion, Rothschilds, Trilateral Commission, The Republican National Committee... All part of the demonic plan. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Vin

04-23-2003, 08:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Smoof:
If you don't call Jesus, by name, as your Messiah do you really believe in the one true God of the Bible? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hoo boy. I REALLY should let it go, but...

Setting aside for a moment the fact that Masonry is not a religious but a fraternal organization, what exactly does "one true God" mean?

wannabenaked2001

04-24-2003, 05:32 AM

I like to think that most religions of the world recognize the same one true God, but by different names and in different forms. As for some of the religions that have more than one god, even the Catholics have the "Holy Trinity". They have one true God but recognize God as three parts or forms (The Father, the Son (Jesus), and The Holy Spirit).

wannabenaked2001

04-24-2003, 05:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Smoof:
If you don't call Jesus, by name, as your Messiah do you really believe in the one true God of the Bible?"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Bible is not just for Christians. The "Old Testament" is Jewish, as was Jesus.

04-24-2003, 07:32 AM

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not 3 Gods. They are all part of one God. Easier to say than it is to understand--just like saying that God has ALWAYS existed and never had a beginning. That one boggles my mind more than anything else. Everything we know of had a beginning, but God WAS even when nothing else was.

Smoof

04-24-2003, 11:58 AM

Hi all,
Yes I am a spirit filled Christian and I believe in the Holy Trinity, that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and He is the only way and means to the Father in His Throneroom in Heaven.
I mentioned some things like this in another thread and that masonic views were not really compatable with Christianity although many who get drawn in to it still believe they have simply joined a different type of Christian organization because of the secrecy of thier many levels or degrees. I seemed to have made a couple of Shriners mad at me by trying to expound on the fact that "good works will not earn you salvation" and that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.
I invited them here to compare notes.

God Bless,
Smoof

Jochanaan

04-24-2003, 12:19 PM

If the Masons are such a good, Christian organization, why don't they let us know the details of their beliefs and worship, or whatever goes on in their lodge meetings? Christianity, on the other hand, is not secret; anyone is welcome to visit virtually any meeting in a Christian church (except perhaps for a few fringe groups that most Christians would disavow). Our views are published in the best-selling and best-documented book of all time, the Bible.

Naturist Mark

04-24-2003, 04:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jochanaan:
If the Masons are such a good, Christian organization, why don't they let us know the details of their beliefs and worship, or whatever goes on in their lodge meetings? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Freemasonry is not a Christian organization, it is a fraternal service organization. Or organizations... there are many different masonic groups, some of which may more overtly 'Christian' alligned than others.

As private organizations masonic groups have the right to 'secret rituals' and other nonsense. Mostly their secrets are just recognition signals and the like. No different from your college sorority and fraternity. Absolutely no difference at all.

If you believe no-one has a right to secrets please post your medical records, ATM PIN and IRS returns online.

However, in the case of Masonic 'secrets' there is no real mystery. There have been plenty of exposes over the years where just about every bit of their secret rituals and 'teachings' and signals are published. If you can bear to wade through the conspiracy theory rubbish that surrounds it just do a Google search on "Freemasonry" and "Secrets".

By the way, their lodge meetings are not secret.

Smoof

04-24-2003, 04:37 PM

From what I have gathered, the masons do not claim to have any type of religious affiliation. Yet, to join, you must affirm your own belief in a "universal great spirit" (of your own choosing)and they do have prayers to whatever/whomever you wish during their meetings.
Freemasonry claims to NOT be a religion of itself yet it espouses many religious types of rituals and that is the part that confuses the situation. OK, I may beleive that. It does claim to be a homogulation of many religions. It does claim to be a fraternal order (or club)which is perfectly fine in and of itself. Quite similar to that major golf club that won't admit women golfers, it's a private club they can do as they wish and I don't think anyone needs to tell them different even though it does upset a lot of women.
It is good to join in brotherhood with others but don't comprimise your belief system in God with others who seem to believe that good works alone will bring you salvation just because you are a good person. I am confident of my own salvation ONLY because of Jesus loving sacrifice in my stead and nothing I that have ever done to earn it.
My point then would be to remind those that beleive that they are Christians to be wary of any of those "rituals and oaths" that may conflict with the teachings of Jesus even if they are only done in "allegory." The Bible does warn us that "the tongue is sharper than any two-edged sword" so I wouldn't make any idle oath just to satisfy someone else. It may be important in the eyes of the Lord.
We will all stand naked before Him on judgement day and if you have denied Jesus in this life after hearing His truth then He will deny knowing you to God the Father.

God bless,
Smoof

nude in wheelchair

04-24-2003, 04:57 PM

I'll say Amen to that. more then that we should have a close relationship with our father in heaven through Jesus. My father had a good friend that was masnry but didn't believe at all. As I grew up I sen him off and on. Everythime I sen him he didn't look happy each time a it look worse eash time. So those who did have God in their lives through Jesus after while the be come unhappy. Just my two cent in here. Be nude for the lord,,,, Amen?

Vin

04-24-2003, 05:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jon-Marc:
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not 3 Gods. They are all part of one God. Easier to say than it is to understand--just like saying that God has ALWAYS existed and never had a beginning. That one boggles my mind more than anything else. Everything we know of had a beginning, but God WAS even when nothing else was. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, according to most Christian teachings, the three are at once discrete individuals AND aspects of the godhead. Rather like we each carry around a divine spark within us; each is a part of the whole, yet completely individual at the same time.

Vin

04-24-2003, 06:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Smoof:
From what I have gathered, the masons do not claim to have any type of religious affiliation. Yet, to join, you must affirm your own belief in a "universal great spirit" (of your own choosing)and they do have prayers to whatever/whomever you wish during their meetings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would be because they actually DON'T have any religious affiliation. They only require that one have a belief in a Supreme Being. They don't get into telling you how to acknowledge that or what to do about it. I suspect the rituals are religiously tolerant; if they mention the universal spirit at all, they do it in an inclusive way. Believe it or not, it IS possible to pray so that it doesn't offend anyone.

BB,
Vin

Phil

04-24-2003, 06:58 PM

Well, Well, Still at it I see.
Why is it that there are some people who out of some supreme sence of overt superiority can dam a whole race of people because they do not believe the same as themselves. Are we to believe that all Budists, Jews, Taoists and Etc. religious people will go to a firery hell as well as all other people who do not believe in Jesus.
Please if that is what you believe keep it to yourself.
As far as your demented knowledge of Masonic events are concerned, If you do not know what you are talking about LOOK IT UP.
I was angry at first by your lack of knowledge but I only have pitty for you. I can't be angry with someone who is so knowledgeable about nothing. Also read your bible you seem to pick and choose what part of it to read. It seems to be one of your traits to pick on somebody about something you know nothing about. If I seem harsh, believe me I am being kind!!!

Smoof

04-26-2003, 05:32 PM

Well Phil, I am not "at it again", I invited you over here.
I did look up these things on the site about Freemasonry that was given in the other thread. Excellent site by the way, well done and very informative also. I did learn a few things that convinced me to view some things differently aboat masonry than I had previously heard of, but not all things were cleared up for me on that site. Such as...
If the Masons are simply a fellowship organization (which is good) then why all the religious type of ceremony that has led many peaople to believe otherwise?
What do the symbols mean on your fez? (You gave me a great blast back there for being wrong but you told us nothing and even the Masonry site was not clear on this).
Perhaps you can help us all to understand these things. So far all you have done is blow up about everything and your tone takes off to the offensive side. You can talk to me without that. Just because we agree to disagree doesn't require that we speak poorly to each other. Help me to understand your point of view as I try to help you understand mine from the teachings I have received.

As far as your question goes, my teaching is this...
The Bible shall be revealed in every corner of the earth and His truth presented to everyone on earth at least once in thier lives before the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. That includes you, Buddists, Taoists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, and other general Atheists. What you do with the truth when you hear it is the key issue. Your teaching sounds like you've been taught that "in the end everybody will go to Heaven anyway". Let me make myself perfectly clear in saying "That part is correct," but the rest of it goes something like this. On that day, we do all go to Heaven, but it is to stand naked in judgement before the Father (or Grand Architect as you will) and Jesus who is our atonement. If you have rejected Jesus in this life, He will reject you forever. Everyone get a chance but not every one takes it.

Jesus loves you,

Smoof

04-26-2003, 05:40 PM

Hey Vin,

That was a darn good description of the Trinity of God and the Holy Spirit within each of us!!! Really good.

But why o why would you want to call yourself a wiccan in another post?

That is a puzzlement.

God Bless you Vin

Phil

04-26-2003, 06:44 PM

What is it about my answers that you don't understand? Masonry is a fraternal organization. I do not need to and am not going to explain anything about our rites and expresions. They are for the people who desire to and who join. You can join any organization you want to. But for you to ask me and expect me to explain my organization to you because you feel the need to try to tell me it is not a proper organization does not wash with me. As for our symbols, They re for our members and not for the general public. If you desire more information about our organization look up www.pagrandlodge.org (http://www.pagrandlodge.org) This is the site of the Grand Lodge of PA.
You say that our organization does not qualify as your kind of club. Well sometimes people want different things out of life that is why baskins and robbins have 56 flavors.

Do you know how close our organization was with the revolution that helped shape our country?
George Washington was Grand Master of Virginia, Ben Franklin was Grand Master of Pennsylvania, Laffyette of France was a Mason as was Von Stubin of Germany. The Presidents of our country some Harry Truman was Grand Master of Missouri FDR was a Mason. Douglas McGarther was a Mason. Lincoln petitioned to become a Mason but was shot before he was entered. LBJ was a Mason. President Ford is a Mason and a Shriner. Bill Clinton is a senior demolay mason. Like I said earlier look it up. But if you want me to explain to you everything about the Masons you are asking the wrong person. We have some things that we keep to ourselves. It is for those who joine to know and not for everybody. Do not take it as some secret that is bad. It is for members only. I am sure you know of other organization that have their secrets.

As far as you telling me you invited me to this post so you can control my talk, I tell you, you do not know me!!!!
Please lets talk about nudism that is why I joined this organization because I like to be nude and I like to talk and hang out with other people who feel that same way. Lets agree to disagree and move on.

Vin

04-26-2003, 07:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Smoof:
That was a darn good description of the Trinity of God and the Holy Spirit within each of us!!! Really good.

But why o why would you want to call yourself a wiccan in another post? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Smoof,

Thanks for the comment, but just because I understand the doctrine doesn't mean I subscribe to it exclusively. Christianity's Trinity is very similar to the way most Pagans view Deity, except that we see different aspects. They all are just different faces of the same thing anyway, so we don't get worked up about it. If the Trinity works for you, great.

As for why I would want to call myself Wiccan... well, that's because that's my path. Or rather, it beats "agnostic mutt," which may be closer to the truth. Primarily it's because, of the religions I've come across in many years of searching, Wicca is closest to what I believe.

That doesn't make it the only valid path. All spiritual paths lead to the same end, and all are equally valid. That's one of the things I admire about the Masons: they require only that one believe in a Supreme Being without insisting that there's only one correct choice for how to acknowledge it.

God and Goddess bless you, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Croydon

04-26-2003, 07:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Smoof:
Hey Vin,

That was a darn good description of the Trinity of God and the Holy Spirit within each of us!!! Really good.

But why o why would you want to call yourself a wiccan in another post?

That is a puzzlement.

God Bless you Vin <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And my mother wonders why I don't go to church or pray anymore. Die hard "Christians" such as smoof are the reasons that remind me to keep my distance with religion and their closed minded followers

Vin

04-26-2003, 07:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phil:
[L]ets talk about nudism that is why I joined this organization because I like to be nude and I like to talk and hang out with other people who feel that same way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, if someone could just point us to the nearest nudist lodge.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Take care,
Vin

Phil

04-27-2003, 10:40 AM

Vin

Amen

Phil

Vin

04-28-2003, 06:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phil:
Amen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vin

04-28-2003, 06:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Croydon:
And my mother wonders why I don't go to church or pray anymore. Die hard "Christians" such as smoof are the reasons that remind me to keep my distance with religion and their closed minded followers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't give up on all religions based on the vocal minorities in a few of them. There are open-minded non-radicals in every religion, even Christianity. Sometimes the trick is finding them. Or finding another path that fits your own beliefs better.

jrh_ind

04-28-2003, 09:34 AM

Thank you naturistmark1, Vin and Phil for your remarks about Masonry and religion. I know Phil is a Mason. Are you naturistmark1 or Vin Masons? At any rate you gave a very good arguments for Masonery. The Masonic Lodge is a religious organization in that it requires its members to be monotheists,ie,believe on one god whether you call your god God, Allah, or Jehovah, but Masonry is not a religion because we do not teach a way to salvation. We leave that to each member to learn from their individual religion. There are Christian organizations within Freemasonry such as Order of Eastern Star and Knights Templar. Phil, I checked out the Grand Lodeg of PA web site and I'm going to check it out further after this posting. Also for more information about Freemasnry please go to www.indianamasons.org (http://www.indianamasons.org) By the way if you don't already know it I am the one who originally started this discussion under the Miscellaneous catagory with the subject "Masonry and Nudism/Naturism. As I said before Masonry is not a religion therefore I didn't even think to put this under "Nundity and Religion."

nudist_in_Tn

04-28-2003, 09:47 AM

BORING!!!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Phil

04-28-2003, 12:52 PM

What is boring to some is educational to others.

Vin

04-29-2003, 07:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jrh_ind:
I know Phil is a Mason. Are you naturistmark1 or Vin Masons?....

The Masonic Lodge is a religious organization in that it requires its members to be monotheists,ie,believe on one god whether you call your god God, Allah, or Jehovah, but Masonry is not a religion because we do not teach a way to salvation. We leave that to each member to learn from their individual religion. There are Christian organizations within Freemasonry such as Order of Eastern Star and Knights Templar.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not a Mason, although I've known several through the years. They are/were, without exception, people I admired.

I can't tell if the second paragraph is a quote from another source, but I wouldn't think it's fair to say that the Masons require member to be monotheists. Their material that I've read only indicates that it's necessary to have a belief in a "Supreme Being." I don't see where that would exclude polytheists, who might have several such Beings. To be honest, the only group I think it categorically excludes is atheists, although I'm also not sure how to stretch the requirement to include Buddhists (unless you call attainment of Nirvana evidence of a Supreme Being).

This is an interesting thread.

Vin

Trailscout

04-29-2003, 08:02 AM

I am grateful for the work Masons do in the community, some of it real low-profile.

The Masonic rituals and meetings are not for me.
No offense meant to those who find meaning in Masonic rites, but a Christian should be getting his spiritual needs met in a church.

I do believe in helping the local community and wouldn't mind being a part of some civic organization whose sole focus is community service.

Vin

04-29-2003, 10:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trailscout:
No offense meant to those who find meaning in Masonic rites, but a Christian should be getting his spiritual needs met in a church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps. Then again, perhaps people of all paths can find spiritual meaning in community service. I think that living one's faith, rather than simply paying lip service to it periodically, may be a good thing.

The point is moot in the present discussion, since the Masons are a fraternal organization rather than a religious one.

Trailscout

04-29-2003, 12:05 PM

Whether you call it religious or not, Masons have lots of books to study, rituals to perform and a lot of us just can't get into all that.
My grandfather, one of my uncles and a former pastor of my church were Masons and I respect them, but they went through a lengthy process related to internal Masonic rites that I just don't want to pursue.

If all you want to do is community service activities, there are other groups that will give you the opportunity such as Kiwanis, Civitans, BigBrother, to name a few.