Circumcision

[dan t]

I don't know if it is sexer or not, but I thought that nudest is about body acceptance!!!! http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[vintagecarguy]

I don't know if it is sexer or not, but I thought that nudest is about body acceptance!!!!

please don't get me wrong.I accept if an adult wants to be cut.I accept adults who were cut who like or hate what was done to them.
What I don't accept is the continued cutting of infants when so many of us have clearly,plainly,and frequently stated that circumcision has had very real physical complications for us ranging from just not liking it to being totaly sexually crippled by it.Children have died from it.
Just leave this operation where it belongs,in the hands of the owner of the penis in question.

[dan t]

vintagecarguy: I think you'r right I just did not under stand where some think sexer plays in being a nudest?

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vintagecarguy:
We have all read your rants againt circ. But, to use the image of a baby to give the finger to those that have differing views is offensive.

[John Spooner]

"We have all read your rants againt circ. But, to use the image of a baby to give the finger to those that have differing views is offensive."

Dear Mr. Topher.
What you say is correct, both the picture in question plus the preceeding one would have been better not posted.
Unfortunately people with agendas will pursue those agendas by all means possible, plus will never deviate from their set course. To attempt to supply correction, comment or opinion is always futile.
Regards. John S.

[vintagecarguy]

We have all read your rants againt circ. But, to use the image of a baby to give the finger to those that have differing views is offensive.

well sorrrry!
I guess you think using a knife on a baby is ok but God forbid I post a joke picture of a baby giving a circumcisor the finger!
Thats right,the baby is giving the mutilator the finger,I wish I could have when the perv came at me when I was born.
As for the picture posted by another guy of the baby crying during his mutilation...thats TRUTH,people NEED to see what happens to poor helpless children strapped down to have their genitals forever altered for adult fetish supported by pseudoscience.

heres another pic,it's not graphic,it's not giving the finger to anyone because he's dead.CAUSED by routine infant circumcision.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vintagecarguy:
We have all read your rants againt circ. But, to use the image of a baby to give the finger to those that have differing views is offensive.

well sorrrry!
I guess you think using a knife on a baby is ok but God forbid I post a joke picture of a baby giving a circumcisor the finger!
Thats right,the baby is giving the mutilator the finger,I wish I could have when the perv came at me when I was born.
As for the picture posted by another guy of the baby crying during his mutilation...thats TRUTH,people NEED to see what happens to poor helpless children strapped down to have their genitals forever altered for adult fetish supported by pseudoscience.

heres another pic,it's not graphic,it's not giving the finger to anyone because he's dead.CAUSED by routine infant circumcision. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because you have a bone to pick since you received a circ as a baby, and just as you have every right to blame everything that is wrong in your life on your circ'd penis..that does not give you the right to be rude to posters that do not share your hatred of circ with you. Your facetious reply certainly illustrates your respect to others.

[vintagecarguy]

Just because you have a bone to pick since you received a circ as a baby, and just as you have every right to blame everything that is wrong in your life on your circ'd penis..that does not give you the right to be rude to posters that do not share your hatred of circ with you. Your facetious reply certainly illustrates your respect to others.

That post shows how pro mutilation folks go out of their way to try and paint anyone who trys to protect kids as a unbalanced person.I have NEVER blamed all my lifes problems on infant genital mutilation.Just the very real sexual problems caused by the removal of so much tissue and the pain and bleeding that resulted from it.
Ridicule is the technique of choice of those who have no real evidence to support the continued destruction of normal healthy tissue.
My reply was anything but facetious...that boy did DIE from his circumcision and I find it utterly absurd that one who can support slicing through the healthy flesh of an innocent child can have their delicate sensibilities offended by a childs middle finger.
There is not much I can think of that is as rude as...Welcome little boy to our world,now lets get you strapped down and slice off part of your penis.
Facetious,indeed!

[EricNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by vintagecarguy:
We have all read your rants againt circ. But, to use the image of a baby to give the finger to those that have differing views is offensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed picture has been removed

And yet NakedGary's pic remains. Several of us had posted similar pictures before and they were removed because it was said this is a family site.

What's the call? Can we put the circ pics back up now?

[EricNY]

I do not disagree with you....I think it could at least be hidden behind a link. Although there is a slight difference between a medical picture and one with a vulger hand gesture.

What do you say Gary??

[vintagecarguy]

...

[NakedGary]

Cyndiannaked has made many anti-circumcision posts in the past even in this Topic/Thread [Two of them on page 12 of this thread] so I'm not surprised of her post to get on members cases and stir up the forum again.

The post was answering "BoB S" and "Andras" comments on infants pain of circumcision, and directly from a recognized web site on the subject: Circumcision Resource Center (http://www.circumcision.org) which is a valuable source of circumcision information for parents and children's advocates; childbirth educators and allied professionals; medical, mental health, and academic people; Jews; and others.

If "Cyndiannaked" wants to call valid medical information and images offensive or not appropriate for families, fine, the image can be deleted from the post and still be viewed in the referenced link as "ercNY" suggests. The image should not be cropped, but can be deleted easily at this time for those who are concerned about it or offended by the actual facts and image of pain during removal of genital parts or circumcision. Psychological pain and impact of circumcision is real throughout adulthood with some as this link suggests: Psychological Impact of Circumcision (http://www.circumcision.org/impact.htm)

As I mentioned in the next to last post on page 12 of this thread:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"I realize "Andras" is a new poster, but can we drop the medical, Sexual, Preference and aesthetics of circumcision, foreskin, penis, and genitals and get back to the Forum "Category" of "Miscellaneous" Topics not covered in other sections but still related to social nude recreation & subjects you would typically discuss or hear at your local club or resort or nude or C/O beach.

Comments on this never ending subject over many categories, topics and threads for another Post...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it might as well be brought here as were on the subject:

What else can be said about Circumcision that already has not been posted on the subject directly related to social nude recreation?
You are or are not circumcised, and besides the risks of exposure, protection from the sun, and injury, the aesthetics, size, shape, or medical or sexual aspects of the procedure are just not or should not be the typical discussion of a naturist or nudist forum or within a public area, or social nude venue.

I suggest that after 15 pages on the subject "are you Circumcised" and "Circumcision" those Topic/Threads ought to be closed for further posting but available for reference, viewing, and search to all form members.

Some statistics on this never ending subject of which has limited concern in direct relation to nude recreation subjects:

Circumcision

Posted in 4+ Forums
New Nudists
Fun of Nude Recreation
Open Conversation
Miscellaneous

24 pages approximately 500 Posts, 501 Replies

"are you circumcised"

14 pages, 11,485 Views, 264 Replies

"Circumcision"

12 pages, 10,891 Views, 237 Replies

Posts on the Subject in INA Forums since:

July 14th, 2002 [3 years, 3 Months]


Any comments on closing the extensive "Circumcision" Topic/Threads for further new posting unless new or different content is brought up?

.

[Bob S.]

"The post was answering "BoB S" and "Andras" comments on infants pain of circumcision"

For the record, I never made any comments regarding my opinions of pain or circumcision on my Oct. 3 message. I was merely clairfying something you seemed to have misread, Gary. You responded to Adras' comments: Circumcision is a very simple and risk-free procedure, provided that it is done by a skilled person. It should be done in the youngest age possible, preferably in a few days after birth, as babies do not remember the pain, and they heal very quickly. by saying that Circumcisions are not risk free, complication free, or pain free. He never said they were pain-free, yet you were suggesting he was.

"They might not remember the actual circumcision pain, but there is lasting effects as a result of the procedure..."

Like no foreskin? http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I know there are other potential side effects. And I know they aren't fun procedures for the infant. But those still don't persuade me from accepting them as a parental option.

Bob S.

[JonR]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NakedGary:
Bob S.

They might not remember the actual circumcision pain, but there is lasting effects as a result of the procedure as this link suggests:

Infant Responses During and Following Circumcision (http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm)

(Image of infant pain during the procedure from the web pages of the link above removed in this post but viewable on the above link web pages.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My God - how barbaric.

Jon. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JonR:

My God - how barbaric.
------------------------------------------------

Yes, that photo would give the impression of the proceedure being barbaric. Truth be told, I have been to a Jewish ritual circumsision (a bris). The scene was nothing like what that picture depicted!

In the proceedure that I observed the baby was held, the proceedure only took a few minutes, and yes the baby did cry at first. Yet, just minutes later the baby was back to making baby noises with no crying, no tears, and in general enjoying the attention that infants receive. In short, what I personally observed was quite different that what was presented here and by other anti-circ fanatics.

I wonder if Bob S. has also attended a bris and can confirm what I have observed.

[Danee]

http://meanderings.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bored1.jpg

[vintagecarguy]

In the proceedure that I observed the baby was held, the proceedure only took a few minutes, and yes the baby did cry at first. Yet, just minutes later the baby was back to making baby noises with no crying, no tears, and in general enjoying the attention that infants receive. In short, what I personally observed was quite different that what was presented here and by other anti-circ fanatics.

No tears?No tears often means the baby is in shock,real,physical shock proven by medical studies.
What was observed was a crime,an assault on a baby boys body.There are Rabbis who now offer a knife free version to preserve both spiritual issues for the adults and the sanctity of the childs flesh.

anit-circ fanatics????????????
how about protectors of babies from missguided knife wielding adults?

Who's the fanatic?One who says protect the newborn and let him grow up whole or the one who says cut off normal healthy tissue?
My guess is most folks view both sides as crazy fanatics.
Oh well,humans.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vintagecarguy:
No tears?No tears often means the baby is in shock,real,physical shock proven by medical studies.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the baby in question was it's playful gurgley self literally minutes later I can assure you that he didn't go into shock.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NakedGary:
Cyndiannaked has made many anti-circumcision posts in the past even in this Topic/Thread [Two of them on page 12 of this thread] so I'm not surprised of her post to get on members cases and stir up the forum again.

The post was answering "BoB S" and "Andras" comments on infants pain of circumcision, and directly from a recognized web site on the subject: Circumcision Resource Center (http://www.circumcision.org) which is a valuable source of circumcision information for parents and children's advocates; childbirth educators and allied professionals; medical, mental health, and academic people; Jews; and others.

If "Cyndiannaked" wants to call valid medical information and images offensive or not appropriate for families, fine, the image can be deleted from the post and still be viewed in the referenced link as "ercNY" suggests. The image should not be cropped, but can be deleted easily at this time for those who are concerned about it or offended by the actual facts and image of pain during removal of genital parts or circumcision.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stir up the forum? I think you need to actually read what I said Gary. How did I "stir up the forum"?

I never said anything about "valid medical information and images offensive or not appropriate for families", one of the moderators did and took down our photos. What I said was if YOU can post them then we should also be able to post them. I never asked that your photo be removed.

[Bob S.]

Sorry Topher, I am only a recent convert (not officially) and have not attended a bris. I can neither confirm nor deny what you experiecned.

Danee, you are bad!! http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bob S.

[l2ltlarry]

vintagecarguy, where is the crime of circumcision codified in law?

[vintagecarguy]

vintagecarguy, where is the crime of circumcision codified in law?

A crime need not be codified to be a crime.
Murder of ones own children has been legal at various times and places in our worlds history as has pedophilia.The murder of the mentaly disabled was law in Germany,wife beating is still legal in parts of our world today.
They are still crimes regardless of the official line of politicians.

And just FYI...circumcision has been illegal at various times with penalties up to and including death for cutting baby boys.A bit extreme even in my book.
Famale circumcision IS illegal here in the good ole U S of A. and some day we will give both sexes the protection they deserve.

[Reece852]

I wasn't circumsized. My parents figured that it was an unneccessary surgery, and therefore didn't do it. After all, there's always a risk with surgery that something could go wrong. They decided that if I really wanted to do get circumsized, I could decide myself when I was older.

[Yoda002]

I do feel that it shouldn't be done unless done with the persons consent. I do with my parents hadn't had me circumcised without my choice because I do feel like I have an incomplete and scarred penis. But I can't do to much about now. I just hope future parents would let their children decide for themselves.

[TimO\'C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A crime need not be codified to be a crime. Murder of ones own children has been legal at various times and places in our worlds history as has pedophilia.The murder of the mentaly disabled was law in Germany,wife beating is still legal in parts of our world today. . . They are still crimes regardless of the official line of politicians.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is wrong. Regardless of my personal feelings about circumcision, what you have said here is just plain flat-out wrong. A "crime" is by definition something that has been officially prohibited or restricted by law. Something may be morally and ethically and in every other way disgusting and reprehensible, but unless it has been formally made a criminal act by law or other similar formal state designation, IT IS NOT A CRIME and our system CANNOT punish it as such. You may THINK something qualifies and ought to be criminalized, but that is NOT the same thing. Individual citizens do not have the authority to designate what is "criminal." Police, prosecutors, judges, juries and legislatures do that. There is a big difference between being criminal and being morally wrong. Something may be morally neutral and yet be criminal, solely BECAUSE A LAW SAYS SO. Without the law's prohibition: NO CRIME. If it was legal to murder the mentally disabled in Germany at one time, then that was NOT a crime then in that system. Doesn't matter if it would be different in ours; that fact doesn't make it a crime in Germany then.

[A. J.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My parents figured that it was an unneccessary surgery, and therefore didn't do it. After all, there's always a risk with surgery that something could go wrong. They decided that if I really wanted to do get circumsized, I could decide myself when I was older. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So did my parents and 2 decades later the decision on the matter was made by myself and I'm happy about my circumcision status. Exhibiting the glans freed of the foreskin is now part of my life.

[Buck Naked Bear]

Speaking strickly personally, and not caring what anyone else whats to look at,I wish I still had my foreskin. Just because it would be nice to have all my original parts. I still have my tonsils & wisdom teeth...Anyway, my two cents... ;-)

[NudstRalph]

I think it's alot better to get it done when your just born then now. Later time it will be more pain and require you to be home for a day or so. There is nothing wrong with circumcision some like it and some don't. We as humans can't make up our minds. If you have or not, just be happy that you are here and breathing. Hope everyone had a good Nude Year 2006. http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[nacktman]

Question---Why is this thread going into its 3rd year?

Question---Does it really mean that much to life that the subject of circumcision is discussed ad nausem?

Apart from religious considerations and possible health issues in some what is the fancination with this topic?

Curious..... http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudstRalph:
I think it's alot better to get it done when your just born then now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what's better is not to do it at all. How can you say that knowing that it kills and mutilates babies?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Question---Why is this thread going into its 3rd year?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because people continue to post like Ralph did above you. Until everyone understands the consequences of circumcision it will never end.

[hickory1945]

I was cut at birth. My brother four years older wasn't. We shared a room and baths all the while we were growing up. Didn't really notice any difference one way or the other. I am glad I didn't have to endure it later in life as my brother did. He was a very clean person so it was done for other reasons. Glad my parents made that choice for me.
Happy new year Cyndiann. Say you don't have a dog in this fight so to speak,huh. HA HA, don't take that the wrong way Cyndiann. Just trying to get off on a light note with you at the beginning of a new year
Hickory

[KetchumMaine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Question---Why is this thread going into its 3rd year? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The thread just appears to be longer because it isn't circumcized. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[fredm74]

I would have loved to have been uncircumsized. I envy the guys who are uncircumsized. I wish I had a say in the matter before I got butchered.

-Fred



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KetchumMaine:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Question---Why is this thread going into its 3rd year? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The thread just appears to be longer because it isn't circumcized. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Longhairbear]

I remember my circumcision as a baby. I was around 6-8 months old and while I don't recall the actual surgery, I do remember being left in the hospital room, and my mom very upset or concerned. Of course at that age I didn't know what was going on, but I have that emotional memory. After mentioning it to my parents they pinned it down to the day I was circumsized. My dad wanted it done,my mom didn't.

[capers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Longhairbear:
I remember my circumcision as a baby. I was around 6-8 months old and while I don't recall the actual surgery,. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not American so I don't know if babies were (are?) routinely circumcised at 6-8 months old. I find that quite incredible but then I've never been able to understand Americans (grin).

I do know however that my sons in 68-71 were circumcised within days of birth. Nowadays one would be hardpressed in Australia to find any doctor willing to circumcise a baby so my grandson is uncut.

I do remember however a mate in my adolescence (more than 50 years ago), complaining about the extreme sensitivity of his glans which I, being cut, could not understand.

I have had several relatives who have had mature age circumcision (from about age 20 to 45) and they rejoice in their new state despite the anguish of the operation.

I can understand the fear of mutilating a baby and the obvious lack of consent of that tot but I still support infant circ. even though it is virtually unobtainable in my country unless you are a Jew.

[azgreen]

Capers, what you share is anecdotal -- always risky to make a point. We can tell you plenty of stories of intact people who have always felt comfortable and happy in their foreskins and cut men who resent and regret their own circumcisions and wished they had been able to experience what they were born with. Some people invariably wish their bodies were something else. So it would seem what makes the most sense is to let adults decide for their own bodies -- not impose cosmetic surgery and body carving on the helpless and defenseless, who more likely than not, will have wanted to keep what nature gave him.
The Dec. 7 issue of the Journal of American Medical Assoctiion (JAMA), reviews Robert Darby's new book, "A Surgical Temptation: The Demonization of the Foreskin and the Rise of Circumcision in Britain." Here are a few lines from it: "...The scandal, in Darby's telling, is the fact that doctors urged the procedure despite the absence of solid evidece that removing even abnormally long prepuces served any hygienic purpose. Indeed, he argues that circumcision was a fantasy operation inspired by morbid fears of youthful masturbation and sensuality and justified after the fact by reference to a host of dreadful diseases to which the uncircumcised were supposedly prone."
The book reviewer concludes by suggesting the book "should be required reading for American physicians in particular, especially those who continue to perform an operation seldom practiced in the rest of the world and who might not know why it was originally begun."

[Cleancut]

I havn't read all these pages, and this is my first reply on this site.
I only wander, at what point/level/conviction/etc, will any anti-circumcision activist, concede that circumcision is positive?
As I see it, the anti-circ members, retain their stance, irrespective of any evidence supporting circumcision, even to the point of death for their boys rather, i.e. AIDS
I have small children, who will at some point in the future mature sexually. If you believe you can STOP your child starting to engage in sex, WOW!! Amazing...
I would go to any length to help prevent harm coming to them. So a decrease of a measurable % amount of risk to contract aids is not good enough motivation for circumcision?
If not, then just ask yourself: "What would be an acceptable argument in favour of routine circumcision?"

[Polarbear1]

I believe that the main point of the anti-circumcision movement is that the practice is a permanent modification of completely healthy, sexually sensitive tissue, without the recommendation of any medical authority in the world, and without the permission of the owner.

There are some medical needs for circumcision (0.6% to 1%) in boys with intact foreskins. True pathological phimosis, complications from diabetes, trauma, frostbite, and penile cancer cover most of them. All of these are relatively rare, and most anti-circumcision people will concede that these are proper reasons to medically circumcise.

Although most medical position statements say that there are potential benefits of circumcision, no medical society believes that the small potential benefits outweigh the potential complications enough to endorse routine infant circumcision.

When you take away the possible medical benefits, you are left with society, religion and personal preference. Many people disagree that any of these are sufficient cause to excise healthy tissue from an unconsenting child. (Adults can pierce, poke, colour, or cut whatever part of themselves they want)

All members here want what’s best for their children, but some are vocal enough to express their opinions that the ends don’t justify the means when it comes to circumcision.

I certainly don’t thank my parents for removing my foreskin to prevent UTI’s (which I was never likely to have), AIDS (which a condom and mature behavior handle nicely), or penile cancer (which is virtually unheard of in any male). My penis does not look like my father's, nor has anyone with a foreskin even been teased in my presence, nor do I know anyone with a foreskin who has had problems with women.

“Just because”, or "It is gross" are not very good reasons to alter the genitals of a child (male or female).

[Longhairbear]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by capers:
[.

I'm not American so I don't know if babies were (are?) routinely circumcised at 6-8 months old. I find that quite incredible but then I've never been able to understand Americans (grin).

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I should clarify why I was cut at 6-8 months. I was adopted, and I assume otherwise I would have been done earlier.

[JF1569]

No offense to anyone...but I find it extremely difficult to believe anyone remembering what happened at the age of 6 months. It's impossible.

[dan t]

I'll just keep what GOD gave me thank you. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/idea3.gif

[Jason Heh]

I had no say in it... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sad3.gif

They think we men can't handle our own bodys....so as babys they make us cry and remove something that is there for a reason.

Bunch of nonsense

DON'T DO THIS TO YOUR CHILD, let them decide, wish I had had a say in it.

[florida-david]

aids? i have never heard something so silly. How does removing a foreskin help prevent aids?

I left my boys intact, though i am cut. No reason to remove something that is there for a reason. It is rare that a foreskin actually needs to be removed or even operated on to loosen the opening. Circ. is a medical practive that makes millions of $$$ for certain individuals. If our insurance does not cover un-necessary cosmetic surgeries, how come we continue to fund this barbaric practice? I wish the insurance companies would stop wasting my money on something i totally disagree with.

[David77]

What your doctor failed to tell you about the specialized nerve receptors in the forskin is told in the following web page;

http://www.enotalone.com/article/3513.html

[Hedotravelers]

Ok with all the hoop-la aside, don't you think the circumcised penis looks the best.

[dan t]

Well ???? NO

[azgreen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok with all the hoop-la aside, don't you think the circumcised penis looks the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The obsession with it "looking better" seems shallow and superficial versus the more compelling and underlying issue -- that the foreskin, plain and simple, is a body structure that belongs there, an integral component of the male genitalia. With it, the mechanics of sex is different, more natural and how it was intended intended in the first place. Let each male have the ultimate opportunity make the choice. Wholeness and self-determination are essential. I join those who say the foreskin is more attractive than the skinned, stripped, laid-bare penis minus its only true moving part.

[RunningNude57]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by azgreen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok with all the hoop-la aside, don't you think the circumcised penis looks the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The obsession with it "looking better" seems shallow and superficial versus the more compelling and underlying issue -- that the foreskin, plain and simple, is a body structure that belongs there, an integral component of the male genitalia. With it, the mechanics of sex is different, more natural and how it was intended intended in the first place. Let each male have the ultimate opportunity make the choice. Wholeness and self-determination are essential. I join those who say the foreskin is more attractive than the skinned, stripped, laid-bare penis minus its only true moving part. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely, this is just another form of wiretapping" ! Isn't someone going to Blame this on Bush, too? C'mon. You're letting me down here......

[turkishnudes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by need2Bnude:
Well now I'm curious as to why you feel this way wilgirl. Should my parents have done something different with me? Actually I'm happy with me, so my girlfriends have been as well. But i want to know your point of view. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

need2Bnude - From your avatar you appear to be circumcised - I am confused?

[NakedGary]

The never ending subject "Circumcision" is back in the news on MSNBC

Link to MSNBC article "Ouch! Readers react to circumcision debate" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17520298/)

[draconudist]

I was circumcised but it is like partial. Have some forskin but it is shorter than uncircumcised. Kinda inbetween. But Im happy so no problem. I am too old now to worry about those kind of things just take things how they are. My grandsons were done but that wasen't up to me LOL.

[Rabid_Clam]

I am also short circumcised. Is not long by any means but not short. Too many get cut far too short so when the penis gets erect there is not enough skin and the penis gets 'bent' trying to stretch what it has left. The Dr. that did me (and from being a kid when it was done) can still remember it.

[fre2bnude]

No I'm not and I love my skin, so does my wife.

[Matt King]

I was circumcised as an adult because of an injury. I don't see what the big deal is. I am fine with it. I cant see any difference in the feeling before or after.

[NakedGary]

Circumcision is not natural and less no matter how you look at it.

Why mutilate and scar someone else’s organs without consent put there for good reason, function, protection, and pleasure. Let the bearer decide the fate of his foreskin when he is able to.

Most of these studies especially in Africa on HIV/AIDS and circumcising to cure/reduce HIV are a complete farce and do not apply to Europe or the United States.

If circumcision was so effective why does the U.S. have the high rates of HIV when up to 80% of males are circumcised?

Education, Condoms, and soap and water will be more effective and be less costly than any amount of risky surgery.

Cutting and mutilating masses in 3rd world countries will only give those males a false belief that they are protected from HIV resulting in further unsafe sex, multiple sex partners and lack of hygiene. Circumcised 3rd world males will still get and pass on HIV/AIDS more so than Europe, Asia or the Americas.

Unless statistics have changed in just a few years, 75-85% of worlds males [Billions] are left as born, intact and natural and live healthy lives with extra sensitivity, function, protection and pleasure through out their lives naturally.

All male mammals are born with a foreskin and produce smegma. Thomas J. Ritter, MD underscored its importance when he commented, 'If circumcised the animal kingdom would probably cease to exist without smegma.'
.

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NakedGary:
Why mutilate and scar someone else’s organs without consent put there for good reason, function, protection, and pleasure. Let the bearer decide the fate of his foreskin when he is able to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Parents decide to bring a child into the world and make medical decisions for them all the time until they become adults. This is just another medical decision that parents get to decide.

[NakedGary]

All of the medical associations and some insurance companies say not recommended or covered unless it’s a medical necessity, culture or religious practice.

Some doctors recommend against RIC Routine Infant Circumcision, or lame requests for the procedure to have son look like daddy, or so he wont get teased at school or in the locker room, bathroom, or shower.

On the West Coast of the U.S. circumcision of new borne is approximately 55%/45% In just a few years the circumcised penis will be a minority in the locker room and the one that’s different just as it is and has been in most of Europe, Asia, and South America.
.

[BlobbyBob]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NakedGary:
Why mutilate and scar someone else’s organs without consent put there for good reason, function, protection, and pleasure. Let the bearer decide the fate of his foreskin when he is able to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Parents decide to bring a child into the world and make medical decisions for them all the time until they become adults. This is just another medical decision that parents get to decide. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It isn't medical, it is cosmetic, and it is far from necessary. Why not chop off earlobes, that is no different, or perhaps be done with male nipples, they serve no purpose, what about little toes while we're at it. Pointless.

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlobbyBob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NakedGary:
Why mutilate and scar someone else’s organs without consent put there for good reason, function, protection, and pleasure. Let the bearer decide the fate of his foreskin when he is able to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Parents decide to bring a child into the world and make medical decisions for them all the time until they become adults. This is just another medical decision that parents get to decide. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It isn't medical, it is cosmetic, and it is far from necessary. Why not chop off earlobes, that is no different, or perhaps be done with male nipples, they serve no purpose, what about little toes while we're at it. Pointless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you a doctor? The World Health Organization sure seems to consider this a critical medical issue.

male circumcision for HIV prevention (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2007/pr10/en/index.html)

[BlobbyBob]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MJ_KC:
Are you a doctor? The World Health Organization sure seems to consider this a critical medical issue. male circumcision for HIV prevention (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2007/pr10/en/index.html) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not, but as someone else said there are around 85% of the men in the world left intact, and we manage just fine. It isn't difficult to keep clean and to use condoms, which would be a much better way of preventing the spread of any STD than circumcision.

[BEE-1]

Iam not a Doctor and this is just my 2 cents. Iam very happy that I still have my foreskin, I like it and if I didnt or it was causing problems I would get it removed. Why? Because it would be MY decision to have it removed. I got a tattoo because it was MY decision. I shave because it is MY decision. I spend alot of time naked because its My decision. I truly believe that when it comes to our bodys we and only we should be the ones to be able to do things to our bodys when we are of a age that we can think for ourselfs. Iam not saying for a second that a male is better off one way or the about foreskin just that they should be able to decide for themselfs. Iam happy my Mom and Dad didnt make that decision for me. Peace to everyone, lets all get along, life is to short.... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif

[EricNY]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlobbyBob:
It isn't medical, it is cosmetic, and it is far from necessary. Why not chop off earlobes, that is no different, or perhaps be done with male nipples, they serve no purpose, what about little toes while we're at it. Pointless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think ears amd toes are a little extreme....

I was told by my doctor that it was not necessary, but it was a good idea. I was told that leaving the skin *could* lead to more complications than removing it.

As far as keeping it clean...well if you had children you would know that it is hard enough to get them to clean what shows, let alone clean what is covered....
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif
I have no regrets....

[gymnoboi]

Its very much a medical decision. As a parent I can't even imagine a husband and wife sitting around and deciding to cut or not cut based on how it might look.

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BEE-1:
... Iam not saying for a second that a male is better off one way or the about foreskin just that they should be able to decide for themselfs. Iam happy my Mom and Dad didnt make that decision for me. Peace to everyone, lets all get along, life is to short.... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The natural extension of your logic would include the end of imunization during childhood; the decision to receive prevenitive injections should be made once the children are adults. From both a moral and public health standpoint I have to object. Similarly, I have to disagree with not following the suggestions of the WHO with regard to circ in high risk populations regardless of how much you enjoy your foreskin. I do find it amazing that Nude Gary, et. al. are so attached to both their foreskins and their positions that without a qualifying medical education and background they disagree with the many physicians that worked on this study.

[BEE-1]

As you can see NudeTopher from my past replys on this site I dont go after anybody thru verbal jabs and war of words about how smart a person is or isnt on a subject. If that works for you and you enjoy it thats great. Also, you have NO clue about my natural extension of logic my brother, not even close. Take one more look at what I said and you will see that it was just my opinion and THATS what I said ( My 2 cents)Peace http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BEE-1:
... Iam not saying for a second that a male is better off one way or the about foreskin just that they should be able to decide for themselfs. Iam happy my Mom and Dad didnt make that decision for me. Peace to everyone, lets all get along, life is to short.... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The natural extension of your logic would include the end of imunization during childhood; the decision to receive prevenitive injections should be made once the children are adults. From both a moral and public health standpoint I have to object. Similarly, I have to disagree with not following the suggestions of the WHO with regard to circ in high risk populations regardless of how much you enjoy your foreskin. I do find it amazing that Nude Gary, et. al. are so attached to both their foreskins and their positions that without a qualifying medical education and background they disagree with the many physicians that worked on this study. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[BlobbyBob]

For all those going on about parents making the decisions for children - a child may catch many diseases which they should be immunised against if at all possible - but a child shouldn't be engaging in any sexual acts which may transmit an STD, not until they are legally old enough - at which time they could choose circumcision for themselves if they so wished it.

Also, from what I've seen, these studies have only been conducted in 3rd world countries where, chances are, people are not using condoms, and also not keeping clean. The same study taken in the US or Europe would probably yield significantly different results.

[sawdust]

The subject of to circ.or not has been beaten to death with no resolution in sight. As a person who was cir. "for medical reasons" at the age of 62, I can not see why some people are so upset by it. Words like "mutitation and scaring" are thrown about as though they were fact, but they are not! My own cir. by example was a clean, professional surgery which is in no way indicitive of these unfounded harsh words. The surgery was quick, painless with a recovery in the acceptable time. It certainly resolved my medical problem and my wife tells me that she likes the "non scared non mutilated" look as well.(no photos inclosed) As for its functioning during intimate moments, there is no noticable difference. The erections are just as firm and the climaxes just as rewarding as pre cir.times. So what is all this flack about being or not being cir.?
All parents are required to make all kinds of decisions for their children during their growing years. We decide what medical treatments, shots, food they will eat, clothing they will ware, who their frineds will be, etc. The final decision during their growth is the parents, as it well should be. So get over it. Enjoy your foreskins if you have one but leave those who don't alone! Sawdust

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BEE-1:
.., you have NO clue about my natural extension of logic my brother, not even close. Take one more look at what I said and you will see that it was just my opinion and THATS what I said ( My 2 cents)Peace http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif[

EURECA. Now you may be getting to my point. Isn't one's opinion based upon knowledge and fact? If not, what might be the basis of an opinion?

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlobbyBob:
...
Also, from what I've seen, these studies have only been conducted in 3rd world countries where, chances are, people are not using condoms, and also not keeping clean. The same study taken in the US or Europe would probably yield significantly different results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is why the World Health Organization is suggesting circ campains "there" and not here in the US nor in the UK. With regard to preventing teens...good luck, people have been trying to prevent teens from sexual activity for decades with little positive results.

[BEE-1]

If it makes you feel better Nudetopher I will just get it over with and tell you that you win the argument because I will not argue with you my friend, its not worth it, nothing is. Take care and good luck with your studies. Peace http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BEE-1:
.., you have NO clue about my natural extension of logic my brother, not even close. Take one more look at what I said and you will see that it was just my opinion and THATS what I said ( My 2 cents)Peace http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/beam.gif[

EURECA. Now you may be getting to my point. Isn't one's opinion based upon knowledge and fact? If not, what might be the basis of an opinion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[NakedGary]

NudeTopher (Christopher)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do find it amazing that Nude Gary, et. al. are so attached to both their foreskins and their positions that without a qualifying medical education and background they disagree with the many physicians that worked on this study. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NudeTopher

Yes I am very attached to my foreskin in more than one way; It’s functioning as is should and does in all mammals born with a foreskin for protection, sexual function, sensitivity, and pleasure. The other foreskin attachment and most sensual organ of the penis and genitals commonly removed during circumcision is called the frenulum, if you didn't know, or have one F.Y.I. Thanks for mentioning the attachment.

Who are you to challenge others on qualifications, medical education and background? I see you previously signed a post: [Christopher, another MD2B][ = "Medical Doctor to be"] Every time this subject comes up it seems to pull you chain and you lash out at others about their medical qualifications and education.

Some time ago you posted [Quote below] that probably your last post on this subject but you keep coming back challenging others on qualifying medical education and posts, then call others “zealots” who don’t agree with you on the subject.

Re: Link to "Last Post on Subject" and anti-circ zealots remark" (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3400016152/m/9080029152/p/7)


Quote by NudeTopher (Christopher)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I therefore choose to work to save others from my fate

This will probably be my last post on this topic since I firmly believe that the anti-circ zealots and those of us that are happily cut will never agree.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[dan t]

I am happy with what I have and so is my wife. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[MJ_KC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
Isn't one's opinion based upon knowledge and fact? If not, what might be the basis of an opinion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Often an opinion is just a matter of how an individual wants things to be. It can be as simple as preferring things a certain way and there really isn't any more to it than that.

I have seen this frequently from a wide variety of people. They see no need to justify an opinion. I do not have a problem with this. They can provide as much or as little support for their opinion as they want.

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NakedGary:

Yes I am very attached to my foreskin in more than one way; It’s functioning as is should and does in all mammals born with a foreskin for protection, sexual function, sensitivity, and pleasure. The other foreskin attachment and most sensual organ of the penis and genitals commonly removed during circumcision is called the frenulum, if you didn't know, or have one F.Y.I. Thanks for mentioning the attachment.<span class="ev_code_BLUE">And it would be physically impossible for you to know, with absolute certainty, what the feelings, sensations, etc. would be while being circ'd. Quite a few CFF members who have experienced adult circ's after puberty have stated that they are quite satisfied with the sensations, feeling, and peformance that their equipment provides.

I realize that you are quite active across the net with anti-circ postings. But that doesn't change the truth. You know nothing about what it feels like to be circ'd. Also, a male is no more a male intact or circ'd. The anti-circ zealots frequently base their status on the state of the penis, which is absolutely absurd.

And I may ask you the same question. I realize you have a great deal of emotinal energy tied up in this issue. But, your profile indicates a professional background as a pilot and engineer. Does either of these fields qualify one to "know more" then physicians, urologists, and public health experts? Yes - one's background, training, and occupation give more weight to opinions in fields of expertise. I would never profess to know more about fixing shoes then a shoemaker; nor more about cancer then an oncologist. So, I really must ask, where have you received an education that allows you to have an opinion so different then many leading researchers, clinicians, and community health experts?

</span>

Who are you to challenge others on qualifications, medical education and background? I see you previously signed a post: [Christopher, another MD2B][ = "Medical Doctor to be"]<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Yes, a medical student with a degree in bio-medical sciences from an accredited university.</span>

Every time this subject comes up it seems to pull you chain and you lash out at others about their medical qualifications and education.<span class="ev_code_BLUE">You might want to ask some of the CFF members about who they believe is lashing out here. I have received some interesting PM's and emails stating that certain CFF members feel intimidated by your views, and tone of voice when addressing their posts on this subject. [COLOR:BLUE]
Some time ago you posted [Quote below] that probably your last post on this subject but you keep coming back [COLOR:BLUE](1) I refer you to the use of the word "probably" (2) Yes, I, and others, hear you loud and clear. You don't wish anyone here that expresses a different opinion then yours on this subject.</span>challenging others on qualifying medical education and posts, then call others “zealots” who don’t agree with you on the subject.

[NakedGary]

Quote by NudeTopher
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">without a qualifying medical education and background they disagree with the many physicians that worked on this study. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s correct "Topher" I disagree with random inconclusive surveys, studies, headlines, suggestions, recommendations, and guestimates that this survey states will take 20 years to prove that male circumcision in high risk, high prevalence HIV 3rd world areas by itself WILL NOT prevent HIV transmission in heterosexual sexual intercourse.

Read beyond the headlines that NIH, UNAIDS ought to be ashamed of Posting. CIRCUMCISION IN ITSELF WILL NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION OF HIV OR RESULTANT AIDS. The procedure will only reduce risk slightly if other unsafe sex practices, and other prophylactic means are not used.

The only Doctor mentioned in the article is a director of a department in WHO the World Health Organization.

Look at who attended the conference, and follow the money as some doctors do in favoring cutting for $$$.

Quote:

The international consultation, which was held 6-8 March 2007 in Montreux, Switzerland, was attended by participants representing a wide range of stakeholders, including governments, civil society, researchers, human rights and women's health advocates, young people, funding agencies and implementing partners.

WHO and the UNAIDS Secretariat convened an international expert consultation TO DETERMINE WHETHER MALE CIRCUMCISION SHOULD BE RECOMMENDED to 3rd world countries with high prevalence of HIV transmission, infection, & AIDS deaths due to lack of educating the masses, little if any hygiene, multiple sex partners, unsafe sex.

The article goes on to change its promotion of pro-circumcision Prevents HIV headlines to Male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection, but it only provides partial protection. Circumcised men are not immune to the virus. Male circumcision must not be promoted alone, but alongside other methods to reduce the risk of HIV

The UN agencies emphasize that male circumcision does not provide complete protection against HIV infection. It should never replace other known effective prevention methods and should always be considered as part of a comprehensive prevention package, which includes correct and consistent use of male or female condoms, personal hygiene, reduction in the number of sexual partners, delaying the onset of sexual relations, HIV testing, and individual counseling.

Male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection, but it only provides partial protection. Circumcised men are not immune to the virus. Male circumcision must not be promoted alone, but alongside other methods to reduce the risk of HIV –

There is no doubt about it that the multitude of UNAIDS agencies (15 counted) including the NIH US National Institutes of Health are Pro circumcision advocates that promote and follow the dollars, funding, and donations for studies, trials, surveys, meetings, conventions, and gatherings, and have multi million dollar salaries, pensions, and travel expenses at the cost of poor as well as wealthy nations. Funding for clean soap and water, condoms, and education is not noticed or make impressions like headlines "Circumcision Prevents AIDS" It’s no skin off the executives and employees backs, or should I say genitals to make expensive and risky surgery recommendations to circumcise millions and millions in sub-Sahara Africa to slightly reduce RISK.

Organizations, agencies, and institutes acronyms which make up the "Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS seen in the referenced article [Mostly non U.S. or foreign/international except NIH]
WHO, UNAIDS, UNESCO, UNICEF, UNPFA, ANRS, JHPIEGO, WORLD BANK, ILD, UNODC, UNFPA, UNIDP, GIPA, WFP, & UNHCR

When young uninformed parents in Los Angeles or anywhere see those very misleading headlines targeting for 3rd world nations & promoted by the media and health organizations, and some biased doctors, they really believe that circumcision prevents HIV & AIDS.

Circumcision in itself does not, and never will eliminate or prevent HIV or AIDS, STD's, Syphilis, Cancer of the penis, [Extremely rare] Ceverical cancer in women, HPV, Herpes, Urinary track infections, Warts, or other sexually transmitted diseases.

Can we get on with established proven current methods and programs that are effective, reasonable, safe, and work and have immediate results to reduce risk immediately with out waiting 20 years to see results of recommendations to cut off perfectly healthy functioning male genital organs and foreskins all mammals are born with and for good reason and purpose. 3/4ths of the world’s males [Billion+] are intact, natural, and live long healthy lives with foreskins and associated organs nature put there for function, protection, and purpose.

NIH and UNAIDS quit wasting my dollars for 20 years of randomized trials, guestimates, & studies to keep people employed at the cost of hundreds of millions of infections, and lives to see if your idea, guestimates and studies hold true of reducing risk slightly, not preventing HIV infection as your headline suggests by promoting risky circumcision and permanent removal of genital organs, and bodily functions & foreskins targeting a few million in Africa.

Excluding medical errors, tainted blood supplies, and intravenous drug use; Get 95-98% immediate reduction in risk, new infections, and lives lost by promoting the safe sex practices below instead of ripping off irreplaceable bodily organs and functions of others for a slight reduction of risk.

EDUCATION
COUNCELING
TESTING
CONDOM USE
SAFE SEX PRACTICES
SINGLE PARTNER SEX
HYGENE
CLEAN WATER AND SOAP
CLEAN/STERIAL NEEDLE USE

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NakedGary:
Quote by NudeTopher
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">without a qualifying medical education and background they disagree with the many physicians that worked on this study. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s correct "Topher" I disagree with random inconclusive surveys, studies, headlines, suggestions, recommendations, and guestimates that this survey states will take 20 years to prove that male circumcision in high risk, high prevalence HIV 3rd world areas by itself WILL NOT prevent HIV transmission in heterosexual sexual intercourse.

Read beyond the headlines that NIH, UNAIDS ought to be ashamed of Posting. CIRCUMCISION IN ITSELF WILL NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION OF HIV OR RESULTANT AIDS. The procedure will only reduce risk slightly if other unsafe sex practices, and other prophylactic means are not used.

The only Doctor mentioned in the article is a director of a department in WHO the World Health Organization.

Look at who attended the conference, and follow the money as some doctors do in favoring cutting for $$$.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We all know that condoms reduce the transmission of HIV. If this was an issue of money, then the international maufacturers of condoms would be "supporting research" that shows that condoms reduce the transmission of HIV/AIDS. However, due to the reactionary right wing theocrat class in this nation, condoms are not being distributed throughout Africa. Perhaps when the Republicans stop pandering to the not-so righous right condom distribution may begin in earnest.

Nonetheless, circ does lower the infection rate. This is not a new scientific observation. Not acting on this observation would be criminal. Live's can be saved; and yes Gary, lives are more important to save then foreskins.

There are oh so many noble crusades to undertake. Being Don Quioxte of Foreskins just isn't one of those noble battles considering the world condition.

[azgreen]

The mindless and endless quest by the circumcisers and circumcised to somehow justify cutting on the helpless goes on. The latest UN report is reckless in its calling for blanket circumcisions, given the behavior and cultural patterns in pockets of the world. New findings in one study are showing the Langerhans cells are protective. This is the lead to a link posted on March 23 at

http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/2007/03/maligned_langer.html


March 23

Maligned Langerhans cells may prove invaluable
The much maligned Langerhans cells … appear to act as a "natural barrier" to HIV. The study, … flies in the face of much speculation without evidence that these same cells were the vector for HIV infection through the foreskin during sexual intercourse.
Does anyone else see the circumcision push as some grand experiment, akin to any other PR campaign, on a relatively powerless population? It is not implausible that as more studies come to the fore, the real explanation for a higher infection rate in intact men will turn out to be merely coincidental and the lower rate in circumcised men attributable to socio-cultural or other factors.

[azgreen]

The Lakeland (Fla.) Ledger recently had a compelling article how circumcision has been falling out of favor and popularity in the U.S. over the past 40 years for a lot of reasons. It includes a great video by a mom who saw what the cutting did to her first son and chose not to let it be done on her remaining three sons as they came along. Great first-hand testimony. It only reinforces our decision three decades ago to let our son remain the way nature intended. Here's the link:

http://www.theledger.com/article/20070708/NEWS/707080331/-1/xml

[Fuzzy Nuts]

Haven't we flogged this to death?

[NudeTopher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by azgreen:
The mindless and endless quest by the circumcisers and circumcised to somehow justify cutting on the helpless goes on. The latest UN report is reckless in its calling for blanket circumcisions, given the behavior and cultural patterns in pockets of the world. New findings in one study are showing the Langerhans cells are protective. This is the lead to a link posted on March 23 at

http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/2007/03/maligned_langer.html


March 23

Maligned Langerhans cells may prove invaluable
The much maligned Langerhans cells … appear to act as a "natural barrier" to HIV. The study, … flies in the face of much speculation without evidence that these same cells were the vector for HIV infection through the foreskin during sexual intercourse.
Does anyone else see the circumcision push as some grand experiment, akin to any other PR campaign, on a relatively powerless population? It is not implausible that as more studies come to the fore, the real explanation for a higher infection rate in intact men will turn out to be merely coincidental and the lower rate in circumcised men attributable to socio-cultural or other factors. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the risk of lengthening this thread, I am forced to ask you the same question I asked another poster immediatley above this post. When evaluating Langerhans cells, medical studies, and the like can you please disclose your specific medical education? Do you have a medical, biological, public health background, or do you have an interest from a social side and are particularly willing to evaluate medical studies and the work of public health officials based on personal opinion based on prejudices, annecdotal stories, and statements found on the internet that support what you already believe?

[Viper05]

i my opinion circumcision is unneccessary.it depends much on religion, but studies have showed that uncircucised guys are much more sensitives(speacking of genital parts) then circumcised guys...who knows

[dan t]

Dr. Ozz was on Oprah show and went over all the positive of both cut and uncut you should see if you can find it and he covered just about every thing you could want to know.
thanks dan t

[unitednudist]

I can care less about it. I don't see a difference between eye color than I do in Circumcision. I will admit that I am "cut" but I had my reasons.

To Clarify my statement: The Only reason I had Circumcision is because I Could not contrace the foreskin (lets not get into details) and had it removed for hygenic reasons.

[Bobby Hill]

Its is benefitial for comfort and hygene.

Get it done if you haven't already and get your newborn boys circumsized.

[Fitz1980]

Penn & Teller: Bull**** did a great episode about it. They are against it and I can't say that I blame them. If you're Jewish and believe it's part of the covenant with God than that's one thing but the US is really the only place where non-Jews get it done regularly. The hygiene arguments don't really hold up in a western nation. If we were in a place where people don't have access to clean water and soap it may be more important but this is the US, most of us shower every day.

[nakedcowboy]

regarding the original question, I don't have a preference. I enjoy seeing the variety. It is part of what makes us human. If a man is mature enough to make the choice himself, more power to him, but I would personally not do it to an infant. If you think it's too much trouble hygenically, boy that worries me. vive la difference!

[unitednudist]

Haven't we flogged this to death?
I agree...I did not want to put it like this but I have no choice...A penis is a penis. Im almost "Shocked" we have a blog about this. Get Over it. Maby this should be one of these threads that they close. (View Only)

[Pizzaguy]

I am wondering about the aesthetics of the circumcised and uncircumcised penis, and how nudists feel about it.
I am a new nudist, maybe I am not typical. I am circumsized, and glad that I am. I think an uncircumsized penis looks like a DOG'S penis.

However....
What to know how much interest I have in other guy's pensis? How much do I care? Well:

There is a scanning electron microscope the at University of Michigan that can see things down to the ridges on a fly's eye. Even that 'scope cannot see my interest in another guy's penis.

[Yasehtor]

:shrug::shrug:YAAWWWNN!!!:shrug::shrug:

[BlobbyBob]

I am a new nudist, maybe I am not typical. I am circumsized, and glad that I am. I think an uncircumsized penis looks like a DOG'S penis.

Well you've just insulted about 80% of the men on this planet. You are very much in a minority in the fact that you are circumcised, and I bet that number will only continue to shrink in future.

[Pizzaguy]

I didn't mean to be insulting, somehow, it didnt' SOUND insulting while it was still in my head!

But I AM glad mom and dad had it done. AND, like I said in another thread, I really don't care about someone else's body - nudism to me isn't about naked people, it's about a nude ME!

[vintagecarguy]

I didn't mean to be insulting, somehow, it didnt' SOUND insulting while it was still in my head!

But I AM glad mom and dad had it done. AND, like I said in another thread, I really don't care about someone else's body - nudism to me isn't about naked people, it's about a nude ME!

I'm glad your happy,but I and and many other men are saddened over a cosmetic,often harmful ,in the opinion of the now grown owner of the altered organ, body modification done without our consent on normal healthy tissue.I will never know normal lovemaking with a woman.I'm broken....I'm not just saddened but furious with a medical system that allows this to continue.
You are mistaken if you believe this is an interest in other mens organs...It's an interest in basic human rights and body integrity.
Others will disagree but my body is just that..mine,and no one,not even my now dead,well meaning parents had any right whatsoever to amputate normal healthy tissue.
I will never stop fighting to stop the cutting of children,male and female.What adults wish to do to their own bodies is of course their own business,but never mark an adults preference for certain cosmetic surgical alteration,or an adults faith or any other excuse in the normal healthy flesh of a child.
I'm glad many altered men are happy,but many of us aren't.I am happy that most cut men don't seem to suffer from the same trouble I am forced to endure.I have compassion for the very small percentage of intact men who had trouble with their natural organs and found relief through ADULT circumcision.Why then are we told to just get over it?Why are our very real feelings and sexual problems treated as fodder for jokes and ridicule?Is our dissatisfaction that much of a threat to the status quo?People tired of reading the seemingly never ending debate bemoan the discussion as if it's cutting their eyes.I and many others can never escape our scar,there anytime we are nude.The cutting is all too real and clear.All those who tire of the words need do is stop clicking on any discussion about things they don't wish to see.I wish it were that easy to not see and feel what the butcher with a medical degree did to me.

[eagle59]

Who cares!? I am not a nudist so that I can have the oppertunity to look at another persons shaved/unshaved, circumcised/uncircumcised. peirced/unpeirced, scared/unscared, fat/thin, tattooed/un-tattooed, hairy/smooth, (or whatever else one can worry about) body!! I am a nudist because I don't like to wear clothes and I enjoy the freedom being nude gives me. I am not an ideal male and my body is what it is. I am not being naked to show you what I got and I could care less about what you got. get over it, get undressed, and get on with life. There is too much to do before you die and there is not enough time to spend worrying about trivial things such as "will they like my penis"!

[Pizzaguy]

II will never know normal lovemaking with a woman.I'm broken....
I keep hearing that from some of us who were "cut"; but have no idea how sex could be any better than it has been, these past few decades.

[Croydon]

I'm glad your happy,but I and and many other men are saddened over a cosmetic,often harmful ,in the opinion of the now grown owner of the altered organ, body modification done without our consent on normal healthy tissue.I will never know normal lovemaking with a woman.I'm broken....I'm not just saddened but furious with a medical system that allows this to continue.
You are mistaken if you believe this is an interest in other mens organs...It's an interest in basic human rights and body integrity.
Others will disagree but my body is just that..mine,and no one,not even my now dead,well meaning parents had any right whatsoever to amputate normal healthy tissue.
I will never stop fighting to stop the cutting of children,male and female.What adults wish to do to their own bodies is of course their own business,but never mark an adults preference for certain cosmetic surgical alteration,or an adults faith or any other excuse in the normal healthy flesh of a child.
I'm glad many altered men are happy,but many of us aren't.I am happy that most cut men don't seem to suffer from the same trouble I am forced to endure.I have compassion for the very small percentage of intact men who had trouble with their natural organs and found relief through ADULT circumcision.Why then are we told to just get over it?Why are our very real feelings and sexual problems treated as fodder for jokes and ridicule?Is our dissatisfaction that much of a threat to the status quo?People tired of reading the seemingly never ending debate bemoan the discussion as if it's cutting their eyes.I and many others can never escape our scar,there anytime we are nude.The cutting is all too real and clear.All those who tire of the words need do is stop clicking on any discussion about things they don't wish to see.I wish it were that easy to not see and feel what the butcher with a medical degree did to me.
I think you may need to spend less time lamenting at the lack of foreskin and more time speaking with a psychologist.

I am not for our against circumcision. Although, I think we are better off just leaving it alone and men can choose what they wish to do when they become of age.

I am circumcised and I don't have an issue with it. I don't spend my time thinking about what if or what it would be like if I were uncut. I don't go around thinking about my dick. It is what it is. It works and does what it needs to do.

[vintagecarguy]

I think you may need to spend less time lamenting at the lack of foreskin and more time speaking with a psychologist.

I am not for our against circumcision. Although, I think we are better off just leaving it alone and men can choose what they wish to do when they become of age.

I am circumcised and I don't have an issue with it. I don't spend my time thinking about what if or what it would be like if I were uncut. I don't go around thinking about my dick. It is what it is. It works and does what it needs to do.

THERE IT IS!
The ridicule,wether intentional or not.
I suspect insult isn't the intent but it is implied but I can not be certain.Lines like "I don't go around thinking about my[penis]",imply that those of us who fight for body integrity are abnormal.
I have real PHYSICAL problems.
Sex is often PHYSICALLY PAINFUL due to what the butcher did to me!
I DO NOT need a mental health professional!

You said"It is what it is.It works and does what it needs to do"
MINE DOES NOT WORK!
I'd prefer to spend less time lamenting...so I do.I spend more time fighting to stop it from happening to others,less lamenting,more action...something any good shrink would recommend.Even though taking action exposes my very personal intimate problems to the broader world and the cold ridicule of the uncaring masses.
So might I recommend...don't insist that those who have been harmed have a mental problem.I am not in need of mental help.That is an insult and just a way to demean those of us with the courage and MENTAL STABILITY to face reality and work toward a better world.

[shaneone]

i think this is one of those moot points, it doesn't have anything to do with nudism/naturism. If you are cut then you are cut, if you're not then you're not. you're no more naked either way!

But to answer the question, I am not.

[SargentIV]

Croydon - You stated that it should be a man's right if he is to be circumcized. I agree, it should be his right, but the problem is that many people are circumcized as infants when they have no ability to speak for themselves.

Additionally, many hospitals will wait until after they have injected the birth mother with painkillers to ask them to sign a consent form to have the son circumcized. Obviously, they are not in a clear state of mind.

I will also add that whether through medicaid or through direct billing of the patients hospitals make a few hundred dollars through the surgery. They then sell the foreskin to labs for another few hundred dollars.

[Nashoba-nowa]

I was circumcised as a baby and did not have a choice. The foreskin is on a male for a purpose, it should be left up to the boy or man to be circumcised if they want, not by some parent or Dr. As for naturism, we are all equal and that is how it should be.

[grad79]

I can remember being circ' at the age of 5 and i am in the prosses of restoration since restoration i have gained more sesitivity and I think all males should be left intact anyone interested in what device I am using may reply, Jim

[nuovonudo]

recent studies seem to suggest that the event of circumcision may traumatize the baby boy, as he is more aware of painful sensations than was once believed.

my objection to me being circumcized as an infant (not a big objection, by the way, but it's still there) is that my parents made that decision without my consent.

interestingly, my mother insisted on watching my next-older brother's circumcision and nearly fainted during the procedure. so i am all the more puzzled that she allowed them to do it to me. knowing my dad, i guess he insisted. since they're both deceased, i'll probably never know.

[Dave5]

I've seen on various posts some women talking about guys who aren't cut (like me) and making statements like "Oh GROSS". Wonder how they would like it if we were all talking about a part of their bodies like that?

[Nudekj]

I'm circumcised,but I wish I was not, because it's more natural to have a foreskin & I like to be as natural as possible.Aesthetically an uncut penis looks better than a cut one, but this is my opinion with which others may differ.

[Griffin]

I began restoring my foreskin in 1995. Although to get full coverage took a couple years, it was indeed worth it. The newly found sensitivity of the glans with continual coverage is the first benefit, not to mention the removal of the dried-up, calloused look. It has a sheen and deeper color, as well. The glans becomes again an "internal" structure, only to be brought out voluntarily and not to be left out to dry and keratinize. My wife liked the new look, although what others like to look at is really always a matter of what they get used to. Such a tragedy when men believe being cut is what women prefer. Basic message: The foreskin was made for many purposes and should be left there to fulfill them. Circumcision belongs in the batch of discredited practices along with blood-letting and drilling into the skull to let out evil spirits.

[Griffin]

Check out http://www.change.org/ideas/browse/health_care

As the Obama Administration shapes up, a new Web site has been created to give people the chance to spell out what changes they most want for America. The site is Change.org. There are many categories including environment, elections, energy, etc. Interestingly health care is getting the most comments and votes, and "intactivism" is the health care issue getting the second most votes. You can register and then vote and make comments and any of the many causes.

[paoolos]

I am uncircumcised, I think uncut looks better. I don't believe childeren should be circumcised until they are adults and can make that decision for themselves. Having said that in the nudist world we should accept eachother no matter how diffferent we are in appearance.

[Ski Dude]

I'm glad I escaped the knife. My sons will be natural too.

[Azmexmale50]

Interesting issue here.I have allways wondered if us males were born with our foreskin intact,then why in the world have it cut off.Its there for a reason I would say.It protects the head of the penis and gives it sensitivty when we have sex.So Im lost why.Im uncircumcised and prefer to keep it that way.Looks more natural too.

[neilb]

I was circumcised as a baby and do not have an issue with it.

[bgnaked]

I was circumcised as a baby and do not have an issue with it.

Most people don't. I guess it depends on when you realize it and whether you feel you're getting enough out of your penis in the way it currently is. Some guys choose to get cut, some would never dream of it, some hate being cut since before they can remember. Sucks for everyone in a way! Lucky thing they didn't invent any other "traditions" in the USA in the 1950s, or did they...

[Keith58]

I've got a question concerning this topic:

I'm circumcised and the remaining foreskin normally covers approximately one-half my glans. After sunning and spending a few days outdoors nude, I notice a definite "tan line" and it really looks odd.

Any suggestions on how to avoid or lessen this?

Thanks,
Keith

[naturalmanwa]

Males in many parts of the world are uncircumcised. Jews are cut, due to their religous belief,as are many christians in the US. I am uncut, as the doctor didn't believe in it who delivered me. Many of my male relatives are uncut also, and to my knowledge have never had a problem with the ladies, as also my son is uncut is a magnet for them. I do not believe in it.

[FreeinNJ]

Sorry to seem rude but - WHO CARES!? The whole point of true naturism is that you are accepted for who and what you are, whether you have 3 legs, 2 heads or are 30 stone.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Ian @ gobare.com


I was about to say the same thing. I have not been on here too much but there seesm to be alot of penis talk on a nudist board. Next thing you know we will be ok with going to places like Hedonism II :eek:

We need a sticky on the top to cover all penis talk. size , shape cut or not to stopp all of this.

[HabaneroSting]

Naturism for me is accepting people for who they are; circumcised, shaved, fat, thin, short, tall, pierced or tattooed. I'm not out to judge people clothed or nude. I focus on the person and not specific body parts.

[Running Bear]

I've got a question concerning this topic:
I'm circumcised and the remaining foreskin normally covers approximately one-half my glans. After sunning and spending a few days outdoors nude, I notice a definite "tan line" and it really looks odd.
Any suggestions on how to avoid or lessen this?
Thanks,
Keith
Why not wear the foreskin retracted fully when sunbathing since the only way to avoid a tan line is exposure?

[gideon]

I was circumsised as a baby and so were my brothers, I often wondered why, when my son was born we left him as nature intended and there seems to be no prblems with him.

[pelagius]

Why not wear the foreskin retracted fully when sunbathing since the only way to avoid a tan line is exposure?

I am uncircumcised but have my foreskin fully retracted at all times. I do not feel fully nude if it is covering my glans.

[northnude]

I also am not circumcised. When I got married my wife always found the look cleaner with the foreskin fully retracted. I was too old to get a circumcision so I just started retracting the skin and leaving it that way. After 20 years it permanently stays retracted.