The Minnesota bridge tragedy

[Ken Palmer]

I am sure either most of us or a lot of us here on the forum has heard of the terrible and abrupt tragedy of the freeway bridge between St. Paul and Minneapolis,Minnesota that collapsed yesterday evening during the rush hour traffic. I am hoping no one here has been directly affected by this occurence. If anyone here has lost either a family member or a close friend as a result of this, I would like to offer my deepest sympathy and condolences to them personally and hope God will place his hand of comfort around them during this difficult time as well as give them guidance as well.

Ken Palmer

[Rabid_Clam]

I have a cousin that lives there and have e-mailed him three times asking if he is ok, no answer. No one from the family has called me so is probably ok but still not sure.

Yes, life is not always fun or fair but is how it is.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Ken Palmer:
I am sure either most of us or a lot of us here on the forum has heard of the terrible and abrupt tragedy of the freeway bridge between St. Paul and Minneapolis,Minnesota that collapsed yesterday evening during the rush hour traffic. I am hoping no one here has been directly affected by this occurence. If anyone here has lost either a family member or a close friend as a result of this, I would like to offer my deepest sympathy and condolences to them personally and hope God will place his hand of comfort around them during this difficult time as well as give them guidance as well. Ken Palmer

May the survivors recover rapidly, and may those who were chosen by fate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time find peace and rest in wherever they believed they will be.

I have always been a little afraid of bridges. I don't really trust them, so high in the air.

I have a couple of good educated guesses about why that one fell. Of course the officials will work hard to avoid responsibility. It will be called a total accident or "act of God." It's always good to blame "God" for stupid human decisions that kill people. In a year or so there will be detailed articles in obscure engineering magazines describing the bits which failed, but the public officials won't be mentioned. They will get rewarded for their "heroism" and paid to build a replacement.

Blessings
Bob

[nudistcocpl]

First of all lets thank god that not more lives were lost as this disaster could have claimed a lot more victims.

In the longer run we need to have a policy of stricter inspection policies of our bridges as a lot of them need repair / replacement. Instead of considering this effort as an expense we should treat this as an opportunity for economic growth as large scale public works projects usually contribute to economic growth.

And please, no more building bridges to nowhere in Alsaka ! We must spend our money where it is needed most.

[NakedGary]

Miscellaeous category is a naturist and nudist related forum. This thread is being moved to "Open Conversation"

[walter05]

First of all, the link http://www.kare11.com connects to the Minneapolis NBC affiliate. There is some interesting video and information on that website.

I have personally driven across that bridge many times. As with most such structures, it was very impressive.

Before we start to blame people, we should allow time to recover the victims. We should then allow the process to work. I am sure that they want to find the real cause before any similar structure fails.

The reality is that human beings are not perfect and don't know everything. A mistake was most likely made. This was either in the design phase, inspection process, etc. If people get defensive because people like Bob are going to accuse them then they will be more likely to hide facts we all need.

Please don't rush to accuse. Please allow rational people to conduct a thorough investigation, as I am sure they will.

[MJ_KC]

If nothing else comes of this, maybe it will at least get officials across the country to do more frequent bridge inspections.

There are a lot of bridges in this country that probably need to be replaced and this has been put off in many instances. Hopefully the foot dragging will stop and these old bridges will finally get the attention they deserve.

[Naturist Mark]

We can wait until more facts are in before pointing fingers, but one thing is clear - this is an inevitable result of the 25 years of infrastructure neglect that we traded for lower taxes.

We've allowed our commons to so deteriorate that America is now on par with much of the third world.

-Mark

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by MJ_KC:
If nothing else comes of this, maybe it will at least get officials across the country to do more frequent bridge inspections.

Every major bridge is already inspected every two years, this bridge has been inspected every year because it was known to be in poor shape. As far back as 1990 it was known to be "structurally deficient". But infrastructure replacement is too far down on our nation's priority lists to have done anything about it. Recall last week's explosion in New York City - that turned out to be a mishap from a still operating steam tunnel built in the 1920's and never updated.

[nudenwv]

we too give deepest concerns for those who may be directly affected by this cotastrophy. it seems everything major like this is from our government putting things on the back burner.

[fred950]

Two billion or so a week for Iraq, but a relitive pittacne for our infastructure. Can anyone say "piorities"?

[usmc1]

Thanks Fred, I was going to refrain until someone else brought it up.

I think it would be a stretch to claim those innocents who died in that bridge collapse are directly linked to our occupation of Iraq. But, there is a pronounced and readily identifiable connection. And Fred named it---higher priorities placed on tax breaks for the wealthy and recklessly profligate spending on "defense" while choking off money and privatizing taking care of our infrastructure and the common good, health, education and welfare of our people.

Yep, Conservatism, indifference and corruption!

The decay of infrastructure began during Reagan and is a direct result of "Reaganomics". It has continued unabated and unattended through succeeding administrations.

Let me pose this, when I ask (repeatedly) the question: "What has conservatism ever accomplished?, does it not seem to anyone that it is such as this to which I refer. Maybe so, since I never get a cogent answer to that particular question.

We, as a nation, have sufficient wealth to do what needs to be done to take care of our infrastructure, look after all our people, and protect ourselves from enemies at home and abroad but we allow the mendicants, thieves, liars and skimmers to divert our attention with distractions and false issues while our cities and infrastructures decay and rot, children go without health care, as we pursue pleasure and material things.

I've just got to tell you, were I one who lost someone or had a loved one damaged by that falling bridge, I would have damn short shrift for Reagan touting conservatives! Even more so than already.

People sometime look at me askance and think I am too intense and fractious where politics and policy and governance are concerned. There are those here who think a clever quip suffices, that a facile LOL sums up our national discourse. Well, folks, these deaths belong to you as much as to your conservative fellow travelers.

This tragedy did not have to happen. Some of you to chose to ignore the warnings and chose to support politicians that promised to end abortion and welfare (and now--round up illegals) and to reduce your taxes $500 or so to spend on cell phones or gasoline or plasma TVs.

Well, too bad. The chickens are indeed coming home to roost. And they are some kind of hungry, I'll tell you what!

Those deaths and injuries, that entire tragedy, is part of Reagan's legacy and sits panting and leering at the front door of every conservative and person espousing the wretchedly warped views of conservatism!

[nacktman]

This need not have happened and would not have happened had it not been for the idiocy that has plagued this nation since 1981.

I mean, come on, saying ketchup is a vegetable - how stupid are you?! The really sad part is a number of people actually believe that horsesh*t and similar fallacies.

Almost all of the ones WE elected to office (and those recently NOT elected),from then to now have chosen to ignore the infrastructure of this nation either completely as in raygun, the feather and the shrub or have it very low on the to do list as in Clinton - to name the 'nominal' "big names".

Not that it was very high the list of many previous generations either.

We have ever allowed the neglect and abuse of our nation's infrastructure until the point something akin the the collapse of the 35W bridge awakens us from our stupor, then we get off our collective arses and fix them ... and it need not be a "large" event ... the collapse of the bridge while a tragedy is not a "large" scale event but it has made us open our eyes for the moment - now if we can keep them open and focus them long enough to raise ourselves out of our funk then maybe those that lost their most precious thing ... their lives, will not be just statistics on an obscure ledger sheet in the archives tomorrow.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by fred950:
Two billion or so a week for Iraq, but a relitive pittacne for our infastructure. Can anyone say "piorities"?

I told my wife while we watched the initial news reports that it would only take a very short while before someone blames Bush for the bridge failure.

Sigh: How right I was.

Blessings
Bob

[nacktman]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fred950:
Two billion or so a week for Iraq, but a relitive pittacne for our infastructure. Can anyone say "piorities"?

I told my wife while we watched the initial news reports that it would only take a very short while before someone blames Bush for the bridge failure.

Sigh: How right I was.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is not what fred950 meant by his statement and you know it.

[Naturist Mark]

I told my wife while we watched the initial news reports that it would only take a very short while before someone blames Bush for the bridge failure.
That bridge was a known problem since 1990, well before Bush was even Governor of Texas.

The deliberate neglect of the nation's infrastructure as public policy began with Reagan (not that there wasn't plenty of neglect before that). "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help,'" Reagan famously quipped. The lesson being that government shouldn't help. Well, after years of neglect we are able to point to the failures of government that prove Reagan right, of course that failure was a choice - it was incompetence by design.

To be fair, every president since has made a point of decrying the lack of investment in infrastructure, but little is done. As one senator put it "Infrastructure is always #11 on the government's top ten list of priorities". Military priorities get paid out of deficits, all else must be sacrificed on the alter of tax cuts for the very wealthy (we had to reduce the top marginal tax rate for millionaires from 70% to 28% - they were having trouble sending their kids to college).

Most public infrastructure investment is done as a State/Federal partnership. If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it and see how and why adequate levels of infrastructure investment and maintainence were abandoned you should look at the history of Revenue Sharing - wherein Federal tax dollars were shared with the States. Falling out of favor with the Reagan administration as 'federal interference with local priorities', Revenue Sharing was replaced with Block Grants - which in turn were sharply reduced and eliminated. The result was the massive transfer of infrastructure funding responsibility from the federal government to the states - which in turn faced budget crisis (they are not allowed to use deficit spending) - and so the States were faced with raising taxes, cutting services, or delaying infrastructure investment - or often all three.

In Minnesota that bridge's replacement had been delayed to about 2020 - 30 years after it was known to need replacement.

[nudebushwalker]

Of course Bush is to blame...
the buck has to stop somewhere..

This is not a uniquely American problem, though - It is world-wide.
All around the world there has been insufficient and inadequate upkeep and maintenance of public infrastructure, as all our governments have been chasing the mutually-exclusive goals of big tax cuts and rampant economic growth, under the guise/excuse of "economic rationalism" and "user pays systems".

Capitalist, communist, or petty despots - makes no difference anymore, these days - the risk of more catastrophic failures like this is an international one.
This is just one more sympton of massive failures, along with your health, welfare and education systems; and the losses in personal freedoms and individual rights that are regularly brought up in these forums - and God help us that the Australian, Canadian and UK governments seem intent on chipping away at these as well.
What we were seeing Middle East, Chinese and Russian regimes doing in the past, our leaders seem to be keen on trying out these days.

[Sanslines]

States are first and foremost responsible for taking care of business within their states. To blame the federal government for anything and everything is ludacrous. In New York, every mayor since Ed Kotch has made infrastructure improvements a priority. Even with such priorities much work has yet to be done. Some of the bridges in New York are 200 years old! There are also many competing agencies who provide oversight for roads, bridges, and tunnels - agencies such as the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. Many of the bridges and tunnels were constructed during a time when the population was much lower. The design engineers at the time could never have known how large and quickly the population would have grown with a result that the brides and tunnels experience enormous wear and tear well beyond what they were ever initially designed to withstand.

The failures do NOT begine with Federal, State, or Local government. The failures begin with people themselves who don't care and don't take an active roll in government and the society around them. Just about everyone knows that the electrical grid is old and overloaded. Yet we ignore the problem until there is a major catastrophy and then scream "how could this happen??". It happens because we know that the problem will happen and it is just a matter of time - we just don't care to resolve the problem before it becomes a major catastrophy.

Another serious problem is that we may no longer have the ablility to make the proper infrastructure improvements. If the road construction crews around here are any indication of what crews are capable of nationally, then no matter how much money we spend, the job will never be done properly. The road crews never use the proper materials or do the job properly and the end result is a road that deteriorates within one year instead of lasting for the normal five years. Sloppy and incompetent workmanship, lousy and defective materials, and cutting corners to initially and supposedly save money (although in the end the project winds up costing 10 times as much), and state road crew unions that reject any changes and force the state to accept lousy workmanship are all serious problems that continue to this day. There is enormous waste, fraud, and mismanagement within the infrastructure system. The answer is not to keep throwing more money down a hole. The answer is to overhaul the system and hire competent people who have the background, authority, intelligence, and capabilities to do the job properly. The answer: Get rid of the road crew unions that are a major part of the problem, send me a group of hard working Mexicans, and I will get a job done that is 10 times better and for one tenth of the cost.

[Sanslines]

Of course Bush is to blame...
the buck has to stop somewhere..

No, Australia is to blame for not vociferously objecting to the election of Bush in the first place.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
The deliberate neglect of the nation's infrastructure as public policy began with Reagan (not that there wasn't plenty of neglect before that). "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help,'" Reagan famously quipped. The lesson being that government shouldn't help. Well, after years of neglect we are able to point to the failures of government that prove Reagan right, of course that failure was a choice - it was incompetence by design.


In Minnesota that bridge's replacement had been delayed to about 2020 - 30 years after it was known to need replacement.

I heard one TV news report that the Minnisota Governor had vetoed a spending bill just last week that would have funded a bunch of bridge and highway upgrades. Not that it would have been in time to fix this problem, but it shows how the state has continued to fail in its duty to maintain its roads and bridges. Last week he vetoes the bridge repair money, and this week he's on TV blaming it on everyone else. Same old political crapola.

Blessings
Bob

[Naturist Mark]

As you can see the circle pointing is well underway. In Minnesota the state will correctly point out that the bridge is primarily a Federal responsibility because it is part of the Federal interstate system, built as part of the Dwight D. Eisenhower National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956. The federal government pays 90% of the cost of the Interstate system, with minor changes over the years. Typically work on the Interstate system is done by the individual State Departments of Transportation who must lobby the federal government for the funding - the last Congress underfunded needed highway projects by about one quarter: an $89 billion shortfall. Much of the routine maintenance and other associated costs are borne fully by the States.

Nationwide about one fourth of all bridges are rated deficient, only about one eighth of Minnesota's are, it is one of the better States at maintaining highway infrastructure - and the Minneapolis I-35 bridge WAS on its list of necessary projects, but in an era where neglect is policy it is hard to know with certainty which neglected projects can be safely delayed.

[usmc1]

NO! It is not the politicians. It is not a state problem--it is a national disgrace and tragedy.

It results from those of you who have nurtured and elected the fiscal and social conservatives who choke off the money for health, education, welfare and infrastructure and services in the name of lower taxes and privatization.

It is YOU if you voted for or supported Reagan and his followers and political descendants.

No cop outs allowed. You brought this about as well as the war and occupation in Iraq and 9-million kids without health care protection. You brought about a president who will spend billions on Iraq and threaten to veto a bi-partisan bill funding extended health services for needy kids as not affordable.

This is what you conservatives espouse, own up to it and stop the wishy-washy blaming of politicans!

[nacktman]

What he said.

I had said something similar earlier ... albeit with a wee bit stronger wording and tone, but alas, the PC nazis had their way with the wording and only a non-consequential line was left.

It already looks like the blame game and circle finger pointing as it has been called is in full force to divert our attention away from the fact that our infrastructure needs as much if not more money that the waste of resources that is Iraq (human and material, folks), to begin to rectify the abuse and neglect it has suffered all the while doing its job as best it can with ever aging parts and systems and declining abilities to meet its obligations due to said abuse and neglect.

[Naturist Mark]

The son of the "Okie from Muskogee" puts it as well as anyone has: America First (video) (http://tinyurl.com/3d3qur)

[hm0504]

Our modern North American society has yet to come to the realization nearly all the civil engineering we see around us was built in the last century and, given the materials used, probably has a maximum life span of no more than 50 to 100 years. I don't think we've begun to become conscious of the cost of renewing and replacing our existing infrastructure.

BTW, this topic always reminds me of those amazing Roman civil engineers who built bridges over 2000 years ago that are still used. Here's one such bridge in Spain built in the 1st century BC and carries cars and trucks today:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Cordoba%2C_Roman_Bridge_and_Mosque-Cathedral.jpg

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by hm0504:
Our modern North American society has yet to come to the realization nearly all the civil engineering we see around us was built in the last century and, given the materials used, probably has a maximum life span of no more than 50 to 100 years. I don't think we've begun to become conscious of the cost of renewing and replacing our existing infrastructure.


Perhaps you are correct, but I've done quite a bit of construction work and know a small thing or two about bridge design and construction. I don't know of any reason why most of the bridges constructed in the past century in the US won't last a couple of centuries if they have reasonable maintenance, painting, repaving, etc.

One of the problems is the steady parade of 40 ton trucks that roll down our roads day and night. When they go by the ground flexes, the concrete flexes, the steel flexes, and stone flexes. A constant parade of such trucks would hammer the best Roman roads into oblivion in the first year. In cold climates the carbide studs in our tires cut the hardest paving stones into dust in a few years. We won't drive without them because they save our lives in winter, but they are murder on any road surface. None of the Roman roads were built to survive 140,000 vehicles per day, not even ox carts. 140,000 vehicles per year on the Apian Way probably was unthinkable, and none of them weighed 10 tons.

Typical roman engineering also never had to survive chemical de-icers used and the deep freeze/thaw/deep freeze cycles that civil engineering in more northern climates has to live with. A few Minnissota winters with water seeping in between stones and then freezing would soon make a mess out of that roman bridge in the photo.

Nevertheless good bridge engineering should last a couple of centuries even with the constant pounding of heavy trucks. Steel does not have the same kind of fatigue problems that aircraft aluminum designers have to deal with. Keep it painted and keep it from rusting and a well designed steel bridge should last virtually indefinately.

I noticed that the NTSP has said that they are beginning their inspection at a section that fell 50 feet sideways instead of straight down, and which was apparently the first section to fall. I have a couple of inital questions that I would love to ask someone about the bridge:

1) There are outriggers on the steel structure holding the outer lanes of the roadway. The roadway overhung the structural steel by several feet onboth sides. Was that the original structural design, or was the road deck widened and the number of lanes increased at some time after the bridge was constructed?

2) The repaving project closed 4 of the 8 traffic lanes, but not in a balanced mode. Traffic in open and closed lanes at the time of the failure was HH^^HH^^. Did the unbalanced loading of traffic lanes cause a twist force in excess of that for which the structure was designed.

3) Many bridge road decks are built with "lightweight" concrete which saves a lot of weight. More expensive aggregate that feels like foam brick material is used, but its more expensive. Did the repaving project replace lightweight concrete with regular heavy concrete?

These questions should be fairly easy to answer for anyone from the Minissota Highway department who is involved with bridges. The answers might point to poor decisions by those responsbile. I haven't heard anyone ask them from the media, but I suspect that the NTSP will ask them fairly soon.

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

No, it has nothing at all to do with any of that. And you will not obfuscate the truth without reply.

The truth is very simple: that bridge fell because of neglect and failure to spend the money to repair or replace due to decades of fiscal conservatism and pandering cowardice.

No more, no less.

Conservatives don't want to pay taxes to provide for the health, education and welfare of our people or to provide for infrastructure repairs, upgrades or replacements, or for the services required to support those things.

Fine, they've sown, now they're reaping!

But, nattering about about design, materials, state versus federal spending and all the other merde that has been flung around in this thread this afternoon just does not get it. That bridge was built about 39 years ago and academic questions about what happened to it through the years are utterly irrelevant and callous.

The issue is very simple and very clear. Innocent people died in a horrible, avoidable tragedy because money was not spent to properly inspect and repair or replace that bridge. It had to do with conservative spending priorities that put people last.

Academic questions about angles, type of concrete, weight loads and other BS are insulting, obfuscative, callous and meaningless.

People died because of wrongful priorities. And the people who espouse those priorities and vote for and support politicians who act on those priorities are accountable for those deaths.

[hm0504]

Just some quick links from a Google search on bridge lifespans...

I see from here
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist4/eastspans/index.html
that the expected lifespan of the San Francisco East Span Project bridge is 150 years. And from here
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/11/MNGRIPPB271.DTL
that the Golden Gate bridge lifespan to be 200 years or longer.

Canada's Confederation bridge which resides in challenging environment conditions is expected to have a lifespan "in excess of 100 years":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_Bridge

Finally, this article suggests Oregon's bridges "are near the end of their projected 50-year lifespan" though the implication seems to be that thorough repairs should keep them operation much longer:
http://bridgepros.com/

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by hm0504:
Just some quick links from a Google search on bridge lifespans...

Good info Albinus

Kary Witt, the current bridge manager of the Golden Gate Bridge, said the life span of the bridge is "more or less infinite'' if the structure is properly maintained.

That really sums up my opinion. There is nothing intrinsically about a steel bridge that wears out other than the road surface. As long as maintenance is done to prevent rust, repair the wear on the surface, etc., a well built bridge should last almost forever. Bridges are not like animals. We get old and die after a while. Steel doesn't.

Blessomgs
Bob

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:
The truth is very simple: that bridge fell because of neglect and failure to spend the money to repair or replace due to decades of fiscal conservatism and pandering cowardice.

No more, no less.

Conservatives don't want to pay taxes to provide for the health, education and welfare of our people or to provide for infrastructure repairs, upgrades or replacements, or for the services required to support those things.


Blaming bridge failure on "Conservatives" is the old tired political nonsense that gets nobody nowhere and solves nothing. I've had that kind of partisam politics up to here. Political parties are already using this disaster to blame each other and try to gain votes, and I find that offensive.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:

Blaming bridge failure on "Conservatives" is the old tired political nonsense that gets nobody nowhere and solves nothing. I've had that kind of partisam politics up to here. Political parties are already using this disaster to blame each other and try to gain votes, and I find that offensive.

Be offended then if the truth offends you. There is no 'political' partisanship going on here save from those spewing as they always are wont to, the 'conservatives'

It has been the "conservatives'" mentality and efforts or in this case lack of efforts in doing what is necessary to maintain, repair or upgrade the nation's infrastructure in favor of elitism, and money-grubbing and other such meaningless detritus that our infrastructure is in the shape it is in after the last efforts to do anything about it with any seriousness behind it.
That effort was begun nearly eighty years ago and 'finished' up nearly sixty years ago with only half hearted attempts in the intervening years until the mass lunacy infected this nation twenty-seven years ago and no efforts have been made to do anything about the infrastructure since.
We are indeed reaping what the lack of effort of forty-five years ago and the total ignoring of the infrastructure of the last nearly thirty years has sown ... and it ain't pretty.

Whining that it is not the fault of the 'conservatives' is like spitting into the wind, your face is going to get wet. When they get the priorities correct then maybe they can claim innocence, but now, with blood on their hands - literally - they just look and sound even more stupid than usual.

[jon71]

Basically liberals want to spend money on education, public safety and conventional defense. Conservatives want to give a blank check to Haliburton and other contractors (who of course make campaign contributions to the gop) and just assume everything will work out o.k. The parties have different priorities.

[Naturist Mark]

Political parties are already using this disaster to blame each other and try to gain votes, and I find that offensive.
Well, neither major party's hands are clean. Democrats held the White House for 8 of the last 26 years, and held at least one house of Congress for half of that time. The Straussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss) agenda of "noble lies" to placate the unwashed while actually serving the interests of the elite was accepted, if not embraced, by both parties, albeit one party embraced it much more tightly. Our representatives accepted that "the era of big government is over" meant neglecting our infrastructure ... for the time being. Thus repairing and improving the dikes protecting New Orleans had to be delayed, bringing the one quarter of America's bridges that aren't up to standards into compliance has to be delayed.

Apparently there is a time limit to how long you can play the delay game ... time's up. What do you suppose will be next?

[Caipora]

Part of it is the same factors that give rise to sprawl.

A lot of government funding is skewed to building new things: new highway, new bridges, new water systems - not to maintaining old ones.

That bias makes cities spread and the population move outward, producing an urban pattern where cars are the only viable form of transport.

And you get money for new bridges, but not for fixing old ones.

The factors that favor sprawl are more than that, but that's definitely one.

Now new baseball stadiums, with taxpayers paying for them, and team owners reaping the profits, that's just the usual politician's desire to build monuments to themselves.

- Caipora

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by nacktman:
It has been the "conservatives'" mentality and efforts or in this case lack of efforts in doing what is necessary to maintain, repair or upgrade the nation's infrastructure in favor of elitism, and money-grubbing and other such meaningless detritus that our infrastructure is in the shape it is in after the last efforts to do anything about it with any seriousness behind it.
What a bunch of partisan nonsense. This isn't the fault of a single political party. They are all at fault for treating the nation's infrastructure as a problem that someone else can deal with in the future. The problem is that they have all been doing it for so long that we are seeing system failures of all types in every part of the country.

There are failures occurring with our roads and bridges and with our water mains and power transmission lines. This isn't the glamorous new construction that people can point to and say that they pushed that through. Instead this is the stuff that we use every day but just expect it to work.

I have voted for Democrats and I have voted for Republicans. I have never once seen any of them indicate that infrastructure repair was one of their priorities. It just doesn't happen.

[nacktman]

MJ there was no partisan nonsense in my statement.
Read it again.
I said "conservatives'" mentality.
I made no reference or inference to any 'party'.
I spoke of a mindset.
The fact that the overwhelming majority of those with the 'conservatives' mindset are of one particular party has nothing to do with my statement.
The lack of effort has been universal, though the degree of that lacking has fluctuated from mediocre to outright ignoring it all together since the 1950s as it had prior to the 1930s when we last paid attention to our infrastructure and the 'conservatives' have steadily been dismantling that work as well.

[Naturist Mark]

Looks like Dr. Maddow has been reading this thread ... her commentary on Keith Olbermann's Countdown reiterate many of the very same points about the conservative agenda of neglect. <UL TYPE=SQUARE>There aren’t Republican bridges and there aren’t Democratic bridges and there aren’t Republican sewers and Democratic levees. We’re a country that, as a whole, is paying this incredible, deadly price for a brand of American conservatism that hates and demeans government. And that has defined any sort of spending on anything for the common good as something that’s soft-headed and suspect. And it’s a brand of conservatism that goes back to you know, Reagan’s first inaugural where he defined government as the problem, and to Barry Goldwater before him and the Republican party defines as uncritical inheritors of that legacy. And while they may be benefiting from it politically, we’re all paying the price for it in terms of a country that’s just falling apart. It’s a national disgrace.

Link to Crooks & Liars, with Video (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/04/under-the-bridge/) [/list]

-Mark

[Sanslines]

But, nattering about about design, materials, state versus federal spending and all the other merde that has been flung around in this thread this afternoon just does not get it. That bridge was built about 39 years ago and academic questions about what happened to it through the years are utterly irrelevant and callous.

From an engineering standpoint, proper design, establishment of construction and inspection standards, etc are all highly relevant to constructing infrastructure that does not fail in service. To educate those who are not engineers, in the old days bridges such as the Brookly Bridge were constructed without the benefit of many of the engineering tools and materials availible today - tools such as CAD, FEA, etc. Those who designed and constructed this bridge could never have anticipated the advent of the automobile, the enormous population increase, and the resulting enormous wear and tear on that bridge.

The general public hasn't a clue how to properly design a brige - but SOMEONE in society must if the bridge is to resist failure.
Engineering is not an emotional science. Engineers do not construct things based upon emotions and feelings. As far as infrastructure is concerned, the public only cares if the structure meets its intended purpose. What happened to this bridge over 39 years may not be relevant to the general public, but it is critical to the engineers who need to understand failure modes in order to prevent such events from happening in the future.

Beyond proper engineering, rigorous construction standards, procedures and maintenance schedules must be rigorously enforced throughout the intended lifespan of the bridge. The problem is when those who control the pursestrings get involved and try to save money by cutting corners.

[Sanslines]

.....reiterate many of the very same points about the conservative agenda of neglect.


Unfortunately bridges and other assorted infrastructure has failed throughout time immortal. A portion of the elevated West Side Highway in NYC failed in 1973 - well before Reagan. This highway also has had a history of major problems going back to when it was first constructed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Highway

This is just one troubled highway. There are thousands of them out there in serious trouble and their troubles go way back in time well before Reagan.

[Sanslines]

What a bunch of partisan nonsense. This isn't the fault of a single political party. They are all at fault for treating the nation's infrastructure as a problem that someone else can deal with in the future. The problem is that they have all been doing it for so long that we are seeing system failures of all types in every part of the country.

Yes this is all very true. This bridge collapse will eventually fade from the media and business will go back to usual. A few years ago, there were massive electrical brownouts and power failures in the northeast. The aging and insufficient power grid was to blame (in part). So much of the power lines date back to the 1950's when they were first installed and little expansion has occured since then. With the enormous land development that has occured since the 1950's any attempt to construct new major power lines (at least in New York State) has met vociferous public opposition and the filing of numerous lawsuits to stop the projects dead in their tracks. In the end, the public is aware of the power line limitations and aging infrastructure but blocks any attempts to improve the situation. It's the same old story - build it - but just not in MY backyard!

[Naturist Mark]

There are thousands of them out there in serious trouble and their troubles go way back in time well before Reagan.
Yep, as every one who has posted here has agreed. But it has only become official policy to neglect the infrastructure since Reagan delared that 'government is the problem'. Prior to that it was the constitutional responsibility of government to work for the common weal.

[Sanslines]

There is nothing intrinsically about a steel bridge that wears out other than the road surface

Steel structures can and do fail if the design criteria is exceeded due to use that vastly exceeds original design expectations. Steel is not a static element but experiences a wide range of factors - from expansion and contraction, vibration effects, minor deformations, etc. These effects are cumulative and may cause failure over a very long period of time. Hence why some bridges become obsolete due to overuse or old age.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
The truth is very simple: that bridge fell because of neglect and failure to spend the money to repair or replace due to decades of fiscal conservatism and pandering cowardice.

No more, no less.

Conservatives don't want to pay taxes to provide for the health, education and welfare of our people or to provide for infrastructure repairs, upgrades or replacements, or for the services required to support those things.


Blaming bridge failure on "Conservatives" is the old tired political nonsense that gets nobody nowhere and solves nothing. I've had that kind of partisam politics up to here. Political parties are already using this disaster to blame each other and try to gain votes, and I find that offensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You take offense? You who called for a "dead or alive bounty" on economic immigrants to this country. You who wrote of your fear of driving over bridges. You who called men and women concerned about Global Warming, "nutters" You take offense? HAH!

You have no validity to take offense at anything. None!

And the very clear fact remains, the failure to spend money on infrastructure repair is a direct result of fiscal conservatism and so-called Reaganomics. Conservatism is a tired, spiritually anemic, mean, reactionary, repressive, evil-spirited, ignorant and constipated political ideology which exults nothingness.

Those innocent people who died are the direct and predictable result of that dreadfully reprehensible ideology. Those who vote for and support politicians of that conservative ilk are accountable for those deaths and for a tremendous amount of other ills visited on this nation.

You don't like being shown up for what you are? Too bad! It is said truth hurts, and sometimes, I guess, gives offense. You and a newly returned resident neo-con, bush-supporting, obfuscating, thirty-five percenter, would like to dominate and distract this thread with wandering and vague academic discussion about steel strength, weight loads and quality of cement. That will not be allowed. Because that callousness is indeed truly offensive to any compassionate, caring human being.

It is about politics and policy. It is about spending money on infrastructure and health, education and welfare and all the services which attend thereunto. It is about building libraries and schools instead of jails, it is about strengthening unions so that all workers have an opportunity for rewarding leisure and a safe, dignified and healthy retirement.

It is about the hyper-wealthy and corporations shouldering their fair share of the tax burden. It is about using those taxes dollars to help people, to give them better lives, to help educate them--not just for jobs, but for personal enrichment. It is about repairing our bridges, roads, water supplies and other infrastructure.

It is about affordable, high quality, cradle-to-grave total health care for everyone, not just the wealthy few. It is about repairing or rebuilding bridges so that innocent people coming home to their families from a day's work do not fall in the river and drown or be crushed.

You've had it up to there and you're offended? Too bad, because that is precisely what the political fight is about and has been about since the days of crown loyalists and Patriots.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
A few years ago, there were massive electrical brownouts and power failures in the northeast. The aging and insufficient power grid was to blame (in part). So much of the power lines date back to the 1950's when they were first installed and little expansion has occured since then.
A major problem is the lack of redundant lines.

When an area is having extreme heat or a power plant goes off-line, the power companies have to buy power that sometimes has to come over a single set of power lines that just can't handle the load.

It isn't just the fact that the lines are getting old, there simply aren't enough to handle the demand, even if they were in perfect condition.

This type of thing could easily become an imminent domain issue because the power lines are still needed, even if some people might object. It could also be considered an interstate commerce issue that local government agencies couldn't block.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Steel structures can and do fail if the design criteria is exceeded due to use that vastly exceeds original design expectations. Steel is not a static element but experiences a wide range of factors - from expansion and contraction, vibration effects, minor deformations, etc. These effects are cumulative and may cause failure over a very long period of time. Hence why some bridges become obsolete due to overuse or old age.
We had a bridge about 2 miles from my house that had an entirely different problem. The weather here in Kansas goes through some extreme temperature fluctuations. A lot of bridges are built so the end actually rests on a wide pad that the ends can move on as the bridge changes size. In this case, the pad wasn't built to extend out far enough to handle extreme cold and the end sections were in danger of actually falling off and dropping to the ground.

They had to close this bridge, that was only a few years old, and support it underneath while they expanded the pads on both ends of the bridge, This was a bridge that cost about $35 million and it needed several million in repairs after just a short time.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Steel structures can and do fail if the design criteria is exceeded due to use that vastly exceeds original design expectations. Steel is not a static element but experiences a wide range of factors - from expansion and contraction, vibration effects, minor deformations, etc. These effects are cumulative and may cause failure over a very long period of time. Hence why some bridges become obsolete due to overuse or old age.

I am always nervous on bridges. I am always nervous when downriver from large dams too. I grew up along the Columbia river, down river from Grand Coule Dam, the largest dam in the US. Some years later I read about the disasters that result when even small dams fail, and have resolved never to live downstream of one again. Nevertheless, there are many people who build in the shadow of dams, Dillon Dam in Colorado, for example.

People build on barrier islands, alnog river banks that are guaranteed to be flooded, in cities below sea level, and all kinds of crazy places. Falling bridges are the least of our worries.

Blessings
Bob

[Bob S.]

I am glad that so many people survived. Although hearing about 5 deaths is hard enough, seeing the destruction that has occurred, it's amazing that most of the victims survived relatively well.

As for blaming, the blame goes to all those who are responsible for funding and fixing the bridges. A bridge should not be sitting on the list of deteriorating bridges for over a decade and a half.

Funding the infrastructure needs a higher priority, I agree. And Congress, as well as states and localities, could easily increase funding without any increases in taxes if all they do is cut pork spending in half.

The Twins understand that aspect of funding. They were planning on building a new stadium, but decided for now to hold off on the $300 million stadium. It just doesn't seem right to build it now, does it? And that money could go to better use, such as building a bridge.

I hope this acts as a wake-up call to everyone in the govt to start funding what needs it and forget some of the pet projects that are not necessary.

Bob S.

[usmc1]

It's not about redundant lines, it's not about temperature fluctuations, it's not about bridge crossing anxiety.

It is about infrastructure neglect and all the nattering otherwise will not change one very simple and glaring fact: the other day, as the result of callously calculated infrastructure neglect arising from a hideously cruel political ideology and its incestuously conceived fiscal policy child, innocent people died!

Weaselly academic discussion does not suffice and distracts no one from the truth behind those deaths anymore than lighting matches in a public restroom covers up the stench.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by usmc1:
It's not about redundant lines, it's not about temperature fluctuations, it's not about bridge crossing anxiety.
Sure it is, if that is what it is for some of us. You can say what you think it is for you, but do not presume to speak for anyone else. It is these things, and under funding of upgrades and repairs. Inadequate design can lead to repairs much sooner than originally planned for.

[nacktman]

No, MJ, usmc1 is right here it is the endemic nature of the conservative mentality to negate and deny any funding and/or materials for the nation's infrastructure, be it hard as in bridges, roads, etc., or soft as in health and education, etc., that is directly to 'blame' for the tragedy of the bridge collapse in Minnesota.

The mechanical means of the collapse may very well be stress fatigue, design flaw or some other structural deficit, but the stark reality is that the bridge was known to be suspect at the very least and the effort to rectify the situation was non-existent. That IS the reason the bridge collapsed.

Now, after the fact and as the parsing and diverting begins the mouthpiece for the ideology is spouting "Fix this bridge now!" When the rest of us are asking 'Where were you when you were told the bridge was suspect and why did you no nothing about it' - that is a rhetorical question to the mouthpiece, but it could be a literal one to some who did know and did nothing.

We are paying the piper for the discordant tune of the conservatives mentality and it will only become a larger tab the longer we let him play.

[Sanslines]

It isn't just the fact that the lines are getting old, there simply aren't enough to handle the demand, even if they were in perfect condition.

This is very true. During a heat wave (when there is higher then normal electricity demand) an enormous amout of electrical current must pass through the old existing lines in order to meet demand. In some cases too much current passes through those lines and the lines heat up, expand, and begin to sag. If the current is too great for those old lines, then the lines will fail. Hence why we need additional lines to meet the ever increasing demand and we need to start construction asap.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
It's not about redundant lines, it's not about temperature fluctuations, it's not about bridge crossing anxiety.
Sure it is, if that is what it is for some of us. You can say what you think it is for you, but do not presume to speak for anyone else. It is these things, and under funding of upgrades and repairs. Inadequate design can lead to repairs much sooner than originally planned for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly and no one in this forum knows the exact details as to why this bridge collapsed. I know this bridge very well for when I lived in MPLS, I would travel across this bridge from downtown MPLS north to Coon Rapids or towards Fridley. Resorting to hysterics will not resolve problems such as this. A detailed analysis considering design criteria, wear and tear, inspection, maintenance, and safeguards to ensure that work standards are met will. Throwing more money at problems such as this will not resolve the problem if competent people and procedures are not in place to take the necessary steps to prevent such failures from happening again. Inspections only identify problems with bridges. After inspections, the problems are prioritized and addressed. It is then up to competent people to undertake the necessary steps to remedy problems based upon priorities.

[Sanslines]

I hope this acts as a wake-up call to everyone in the govt to start funding what needs it and forget some of the pet projects that are not necessary.

Why are we assuming that the only needed solution to problems such as this to throw more money at the problems? Is anyone even aware of the way things are done today and that just perhaps the problem is with the current system? It will take more then just funding to resolve problems such as this.

As a specific example, I have witnessed the following over and over again. Whenever there is a road construction project, I have witnessed a group of 20 individuals show up on the job site. Out of those 20 individuals, anywhere from 2 to 10 may actually be doing any real work. The other individuals are not allowed to work by state rules and regulations.

The present state system of road or infrastructure construction is very complicated with many rules and regulations that actually prevent intelligent and efficent use of labor and materials. The process is very inefficient and wasteful. The solution is not to throw more money at a wasteful and broken system. The solution is to completely change the system such that competent people who are able, allowed, and willing to work are hired and are held responsible for their job duties.

[nacktman]

.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I hope this acts as a wake-up call to everyone in the govt to start funding what needs it and forget some of the pet projects that are not necessary.

Why are we assuming that the only needed solution to problems such as this to throw more money at the problems? Is anyone even aware of the way things are done today and that just perhaps the problem is with the current system? It will take more then just funding to resolve problems such as this.

Because it takes money to repair and rebuild things. Money that conservatives have choked off

As a specific example, I have witnessed the following over and over again. Whenever there is a road construction project, I have witnessed a group of 20 individuals show up on the job site. Out of those 20 individuals, anywhere from 2 to 10 may actually be doing any real work. The other individuals are not allowed to work by state rules and regulations.

Utter nonsense, there are no such regulations or laws preventing people from working. Most road crews work from dawn to dusk and in some instances, under light, through the night.

Some people have special skills requiring them to wait until some other piece of work is completed and it is much cheaper to truck or bus everyone to the site at one time rather making back and forth trips to pick someone up when their part of the work is ready

The present state system of road or infrastructure construction is very complicated with many rules and regulations that actually prevent intelligent and efficent use of labor and materials. The process is very inefficient and wasteful. The solution is not to throw more money at a wasteful and broken system. The solution is to completely change the system such that competent people who are able, allowed, and willing to work are hired and are held responsible for their job duties.

No, it is not one bit complicated. If it's broke fix or replace it! Rather simple, actually.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is precisely the conservative Republican wine and cheese party chatter, babel, nattering of canards to which I have been referring. It is not the road crews' fault, it is not that we can't afford to do it, and it most assuredly not too complicated a task.

The bridge fell because of conservative policies. Those who died are dead because of those policies. Those who vote for and support such policies and the politicians who run on such policies are accountable for those deaths.

So keep that thought with you the next time you're mollifying your angst with feel-good volunteerism that does nothing but perpetuate problems.

[Sanslines]

Because it takes money to repair and rebuild things. Money that conservatives have choked off

If money is wasted due to a broken system, then you fix the system first. You do not keep throwing money at a system that can not handle it properly.


Utter nonsense, there are no such regulations or laws preventing people from working. Most road crews work from dawn to dusk and in some instances, under light, through the night.

Some people have special skills requiring them to wait until some other piece of work is completed and it is much cheaper to truck or bus everyone to the site at one time rather making back and forth trips to pick someone up when their part of the work is ready

You are obviously not familiar with the way things are presently done with road construction and repair. Everyone has a narrowly defined job description. The union rules specifically prevent workers from doing anything and everything to get the job done. This type of setup is why you will find a whole group of 'workers' standing around drinking coffee while one or two work. If a person's job description is to refuel a vehicle and that job only requires 20 minutes of 'work' then this is what the person will do and spend the rest of the day watching the others work for he or she is specifically prohibited from assisting the others. Union rules prohibit people from doing just anything and everything.


No, it is not one bit complicated. If it's broke fix or replace it!

No one yet knows why this bridge failed - no one! Until the final analysis is completed, the entire cause or causes of this failure can not be addressed. How can you fix a problem if you don't even know what caused the problem? You clearly can not.

[Naturist Mark]

Why are we assuming that the only needed solution to problems such as this to throw more money at the problems?
We've tried solving problems by with holding money for 25 years. Hasn't exactly been a shining success. Guess what? Impoverished schools DO NOT perform better. Neglected bridges ARE NOT safer. Leaky dikes DO NOT hold back hurricane surges. Isn't that amazing? You'd think with all the money not thrown at them they'd be MOST EXECELLENT by now!

Decrying the "throwing of money at a problem" is just a slogan. The people pushing that slogan really only want to throw the money somewhere else.

[Naturist Mark]

No one yet knows why this bridge failed - no one! Until the final analysis is completed, the entire cause or causes of this failure can not be addressed. How can you fix a problem if you don't even know what caused the problem? You clearly can not.
Sure we do. It has been KNOWN to be structurally deficient since 1990. It was decided to let repair or replacement wait ever since then because of the cost.

PERIOD

We'll know soon enough the specific details of the collapse, but we already know the source of the failure to ensure the safety of public using that bridge - A 25 year old official policy of neglect.

[nacktman]

It is obvious who doesn't understand anything about construction or how on site jobs are structured and worked and it's not usmc1.

Mark and usmc1 and I have all stated what the reason was the bridge collapsed ... the conservatives mentality which has for the last almost thirty years been ignoring the nation's infrastructure completely.

The mechanical means of the collapse in inconsequential.

Reversing the systemic neglect and ignoring of our infrastructure is what is paramount.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
You are obviously not familiar with the way things are presently done with road construction and repair. Everyone has a narrowly defined job description. The union rules specifically prevent workers from doing anything and everything to get the job done. This type of setup is why you will find a whole group of 'workers' standing around drinking coffee while one or two work. If a person's job description is to refuel a vehicle and that job only requires 20 minutes of 'work' then this is what the person will do and spend the rest of the day watching the others work for he or she is specifically prohibited from assisting the others. Union rules prohibit people from doing just anything and everything.

You obviously know quite a lot about construction in the real world. Union obstruction to doing work has been a real plague of construction in the US. Of course the liberals love unions, they pay liberal congressmen for support.

To those who are blaming the bridge failure on "conservatives" it should be noted that this particular bridge had gotten regular maintenance, and was getting extensive maintenance even at the time of the collapse.

Blaming "conservatives" for some mythical lack of repair funding for the collapse is just rubbish. Whatever caused the collapse, it wasn't a "conservative" refusal to fund maintenance. One of the dead and missing was a maintenance worker who was engaged in doing needed repair and maintenance when it collapsed.

The NTSP has said that it may be 18 months before they can say what it was that caused this particular bridge to collapse. Until then we can plainly see that it wasn't a "conservative" lack of funding for needed maintenance projects which were funded and ongoing.

Blessings
Bob

[nacktman]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
You are obviously not familiar with the way things are presently done with road construction and repair. Everyone has a narrowly defined job description. The union rules specifically prevent workers from doing anything and everything to get the job done. This type of setup is why you will find a whole group of 'workers' standing around drinking coffee while one or two work. If a person's job description is to refuel a vehicle and that job only requires 20 minutes of 'work' then this is what the person will do and spend the rest of the day watching the others work for he or she is specifically prohibited from assisting the others. Union rules prohibit people from doing just anything and everything.

You obviously know quite a lot about construction in the real world. Union obstruction to doing work has been a real plague of construction in the US. Of course the liberals love unions, they pay liberal congressmen for support.

To those who are blaming the bridge failure on "conservatives" it should be noted that this particular bridge had gotten regular maintenance, and was getting extensive maintenance even at the time of the collapse.

Blaming "conservatives" for some mythical lack of repair funding for the collapse is just rubbish. Whatever caused the collapse, it wasn't a "conservative" refusal to fund maintenance. One of the dead and missing was a maintenance worker who was engaged in doing needed repair and maintenance when it collapsed.

The NTSP has said that it may be 18 months before they can say what it was that caused this particular bridge to collapse. Until then we can plainly see that it wasn't a "conservative" lack of funding for needed maintenance projects which were funded and ongoing.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the ignorant spew ... one know-nothing lauding another know-nothing, ain't that precious. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif
Still trying to obfuscate and divert. It has never really worked and it won't work now.

The tragedy of the collapse is being born by those who lost their loved ones. The fault lays squarely at the feet of those who have and continue to deny the means necessary to build, maintain and repair or replace the nation's hard and soft infrastructure ... the conservatives. Denial nor smoke and mirrors will not change reality.

[walter05]

Caipora made an excellent comment.

Politicians prefer to build new than maintain. At reeclection time, it is easy to brag about what has been added.

I saw a post about the twins not getting a new stadium. I wonder if there were other projects that were priorities?

It is easy to blame Bush, Clinton, etc. However, we as voters have wanted the types of behaviors that made this collapse more likely. Whether the politicians are Republican, Democratic, conservative, or liberal, they have all wanted to bring the pork home. However, none of them have worked to bring the maintenance home.

None the less, this does not explain the errors that made this collapse occur. I still want the experts to take a sober look at this. I want to know so that we can find out what other bridges may be in a similar situation.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by nacktman:
And the ignorant spew ... one know-nothing lauding another know-nothing, ain't that precious. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif
Still trying to obfuscate and divert. It has never really worked and it won't work now.


I have to say that I'm disappointed by nacktman's ongoing level of animosity and the tone of his replies. It is difficult or impossible to have a discussion when responses continually begin with broad ad-hominem insults. It's a shame.

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
And the ignorant spew ... one know-nothing lauding another know-nothing, ain't that precious. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif
Still trying to obfuscate and divert. It has never really worked and it won't work now.


I have to say that I'm disappointed by nacktman's ongoing level of animosity and the tone of his replies. It is difficult or impossible to have a discussion when responses continually begin with broad ad-hominem insults. It's a shame.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shame? You know nothing of shame. You are one of those attempting to divert and obfuscate responsibility for this tragic event with meaningless academic chatter about construction issues.

How dare you speak of shame when you earlier have come to this forum calling for dead or alive bounties on living human beings trying to find a better life and calling those you disagree with as "nutters"?

You have no legitimate claim to shaming anyone.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No one yet knows why this bridge failed - no one! Until the final analysis is completed, the entire cause or causes of this failure can not be addressed. How can you fix a problem if you don't even know what caused the problem? You clearly can not.
Sure we do. It has been KNOWN to be structurally deficient since 1990. It was decided to let repair or replacement wait ever since then because of the cost.

PERIOD

We'll know soon enough the specific details of the collapse, but we already know the source of the failure to ensure the safety of public using that bridge - A 25 year old official policy of neglect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No we most certainly do NOT know what were the exact causes of this bridge failure. You are speculating and you do not have the facts in front of you. The complete analysis has not been concluded and until the proper failure analysis is completed, no informed person will promote a conclusion.

I obviously chose a very different path to identify solutions and my approach is based upon sound scientific and engineering analysis and reasoning. Hysterics, partisan political maneuvering, and other emotional outcries will not solve any real world technical problem.

Rather then post hysterical and emotionally driven hogwash, I refer to (Engineering) Design News concerning the application of a disciplined and rational engineering approach to identifying the specific problems and resolving them.


Structurally Deficient Bridges in the United States:

Though the conditions that triggered the catastrophic collapse of I-35W are not yet known, SPECULATION (by wanna be Saturday afternoon experts) surrounding the rest of the country’s bridges has begun

Sean Snyder, Associate Editor -- Design News, August 3, 2007



In the wake of the I-35W bridge collapse, individual states all across the country are re-evaluating their bridges. A number of recently published findings on bridge and transportation safety offer information on the evaluation process for bridges.

Approximately 12.4 percent of all bridges rated by the Federal Highway Administration have been declared structurally deficient. What exactly does this mean? “It doesn’t mean you have cancer or anything like that, it could mean you have acne,” says Sam Schwarts, former chief engineer for NYC bridges. “It means that you have a condition that has to be paid attention to, it doesn’t mean that the bridge has to be shut, but it could in the very worst case mean that you have terminal cancer; structurally deficient is a very broad term, and there are some bridges that need to be in the ICU.”

In Massachusetts, two days before the collapse of the Minneapolis bridge, the Pioneer Institute released their findings regarding all of the commonwealth’s assets including all of its bridges. Based on a November 2006 report they noted 501 structurally deficient bridges in need of repair and maintenance. According to David Westerling of the Pioneer Institute, “each inspection report evaluates different components of the bridge … and each component of each category is then rated from zero to nine; zero means that it has failed, one means imminent failure and nine is excellent.”

“If some components are given a one, in most cases they would close the bridge,” Westerling says. “It depends on the component too. If curbing on the sidewalk is in imminent failure, they’re not likely to close the bridge, but if it has a main structural member that is a two or a three, they may close the bridge.”

According to many analysts and engineers, bridge maintenance appears to be one of the most important methods for preventing a collapse such as that in Minneapolis, but other options including fatigue sensors and strain gages. Companies like MATECH have been working on fatigue sensors for awhile now that can detect micro-cracks in surfaces of bridges and other metal structures.

MATECH’s electrochemical fatigue sensors (EFS) monitor the current flow at the surface of a metal while it is being mechanically strained using an electrical test method, which the company claims operates similar to an EKG machine. The EFS can detect minute cracks “at a resolution of a few microns,” according to the MATECH website.

When Shultz was asked which types of bridges were better, he made no indication to design type, but design time period. “The problem was after WWII and we began using computers to do some analysis, we were able to make sleeker bridges, use less material, have a lower safety factor and we thought as a profession that we were just being more efficient,” he says. However, Shultz says, the reality was “we were just ignoring the fact that bridges may not get treated well over the years or that they can suffer from fatigue, and then if you don’t have redundancy and you do have a crack, you have catastrophic failure.”

“Your biggest concern is generally in the north states where salt is being used; that has such a corrosive effect on bridges,” says Shultz. “I would say the northern states more than the southern states, but there is salt in the air in Florida and places like that, that are near oceans.”

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
No we most certainly do NOT know what were the exact causes of this bridge failure. You are speculating and you do not have the facts in front of you. The complete analysis has not been concluded and until the proper failure analysis is completed, no informed person will promote a conclusion.

I obviously chose a very different path to identify solutions and my approach is based upon sound scientific and engineering analysis and reasoning. Hysterics, partisan political maneuvering, and other emotional outcries will not solve any real world technical problem.

Rather then post hysterical and emotionally driven hogwash, I refer to (Engineering) Design News concerning the application of a disciplined and rational engineering approach to identifying the specific problems and resolving them.


Thank you Sanslines for injecting some reason into a discussion where too many are trying to shout down all rational thought. I expect to read detailed engineering analysis of the entire bridge in Design News or another credible source in a year or two after the investigation is completed.

Blessings
Bob

[Sanslines]

More of the rational, disciplined, fact and conclusion seeking engineering analysis from (Engineering) Design News:

Minneapolis' I-35 Bridge Collapse: Is Structural Failure or Metal Fatigue to Blame?
Design News Staff -- Design News, August 2, 2007


Inspectors, state officials and engineers alike are scrambling to find out why Minneapolis' I-35W bridge collapsed into the Mississippi River last night. When the dust settles, will the bridge structure itself be to blame or was metal fatigue the true cause of the collapse?

Kenneth Russell, professor emeritus of metallurgy and nuclear engineering at MIT and Design News contributing editor, suspects metal fatigue could be a contributing factor based on a recent report from the University of Minnesota's Center for Transportation Studies. That report analyzed the metal fatigue behavior of the bridge.

"The report concluded that fatigue shouldn't have been a problem, but pointed out that the bridge was very near to the fatigue limit and had gone through many cycles," he says. Fatigue was analyzed visually, which Russell says could mean the analysis didn't go as far as it should have. "Fatigue is very hard to see visually, and you would need to use x-rays to be absolutely certain there wasn't any," he says. The conclusions section of the report didn't say anything about using an x-ray — just that nothing was found visually.

In 2005, according to Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters, the I-35W bridge scored a 50 out of 120 rating in a federal highway inspection of structural integrity, which marked the bridge as structurally deficient. "None of those ratings indicated that there was any kind of danger here, it simply says that we need to schedule this bridge for rehabilitation and that was in the future program for MinnDOT," she says.

According to the 2005 Report Card for America's Infrastructure by the American Society of Civil Engineers, 27.1 percent of the nation's 590,750 bridges rated structurally deficient or functionally obsolete in 2003. However, the report estimates it will cost $9.4 billion a year for 20 years to eliminate all bridge deficiencies. The ASCE attributes the long-term underinvestment to a lack of a federal transportation program.

The report states that a structurally deficient bridge is closed or restricted to light vehicles because of its deteriorated structural components. While not necessarily unsafe, these bridges must have limits for speed and weight. A functionally obsolete bridge has older design features and, while it is not unsafe for all vehicles, it cannot safely accommodate current traffic volumes or all vehicle sizes and weights.

The bridge's main 458-foot span collapsed into the Mississippi River during evening rush hour, sending dozens of vehicles, tons of concrete and twisted metal into the water 64 feet below. Built in 1967, the bridge carried an average of 140,000 vehicles a day. The National Transportation Safety Board assembled a team consisting of 19 investigators representing a number of disciplines including bridge, materials, highway and survivability engineering to investigate what Mark Rosenker, Chairman of the NTSB, says will be a "complex" investigation. "The first thing we must do is recover the pieces, and after we recover these pieces of the bridge we will begin actually trying to reassemble them ... in a jigsaw puzzle way, flat, so we can look at the various parts of this bridge and understand what made it fall down."

The chairman says investigators will likely focus on two primary causes: vibration and fatigue cracking.

The I-35W bridge is the first to have collapsed like this with no impact or outside trigger since Connecticut's I-95 collapsed over the Mianus River in 1983.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why are we assuming that the only needed solution to problems such as this to throw more money at the problems?
We've tried solving problems by with holding money for 25 years. Hasn't exactly been a shining success. Guess what? Impoverished schools DO NOT perform better. Neglected bridges ARE NOT safer. Leaky dikes DO NOT hold back hurricane surges. Isn't that amazing? You'd think with all the money not thrown at them they'd be MOST EXECELLENT by now!

Decrying the "throwing of money at a problem" is just a slogan. The people pushing that slogan really only want to throw the money somewhere else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have tried throwing money at problems without even understanding the real reasons for those problems for well over 25 years. Hasn't been much of a success at all. Guess what? We have doubled the amout of money spent on education within the past 10 or so years and our schools are still lousy. You would think that with all of the intelligent people in this country that we would have the discipline to rationally determine the real reasons for our problems rather then just throw more money at broken systems. Maybe just maybe the real solutions to the problems involve more then just throwing monies at some mythical target.

Making blank and superficial statements such as 'spending more money' without any real idea as to how to spend this money efficiently and properly would lead a rational person to conclude that those who preach this only want to waste more of the taxpayers precious money without any real regard to those same taxpayers.

Everyone wants good schools and properly maintained infrastructure. However, to ignore any rational discussion and present any real solutions to many of the incompetent and waste ridden programs is patently dishonest and selfish.

So many examples abound concerning blatant incompetence. Take for example the subway system in Los Angeles. In order to fill hiring quotas, individuals were hired based upon criteria that had nothing to do whether they could do their jobs competently and properly. The result was that many serious mistakes were made in the Hollywood area. Because the tunnels were not dug deeply enough, housing and commercial structures started to sink, doors and windows in those structures started to malfunction and jam, and enormous amounts of money subsequently had to be spent to remedy the problems due to purely incompetent people.
Another classic example of incompetence is the Big Dig in Boston.

In New York State, each time the gasoline tax and associated fees are increased we are always promissed better roads and infrastructure. The improvements don't last long and we are always back to living with a decaying infrastructure even after tax increase after tax increase. Taxpayers have a right to demand that the taxes that they pay for certain projects be used for those projects properly and effectly. Rigorous oversight must be used to eliminate waste, fraud, corruption, and blatant incompetence.

Resorting to superficial and hysterical screams to raise taxes as a blank means to solve certain problems without even understanding the real reasons for failure always plays upon the ignorant within our society.

Bridges should never collapse. Infrastructure should never fail. Taxpayer money should always be spent wisely to ensure that taxpayers get what they paid for. If the system is broken or needs to be modified, then be honest and do this first before throwing more money down a bottomless hole.

[Sanslines]

Whether the politicians are Republican, Democratic, conservative, or liberal, they have all wanted to bring the pork home. However, none of them have worked to bring the maintenance home.

Walter, this is the way the process works. Bridges are inspected by a team of scientists and engineers. The purpose of an inspection is to gather and document information concerning the condition of a bridge. Important data concerning the condition of the bridge is gathered and the bridge is then rated according to the degree of decay. An inspection report(s) is generated and the bridge is placed into one of several different categories and a cause of action is taken depending upon the severity of the degradation of the bridge. Bridges that are considered to be in immediate danger of collapse or failure are closed. Other bridges are scheduled for improvements, maintenance, etc based upon the rating and documentation of problems. No rational and competent person will knowingly allow a bridge to remain in operation if that bridge is in danger of collapse. The problem in this case may very well be that a new means of gathering data such as strain gages and improved xray anaysis of the steel structure may be needed in order to gather more accurate information and allow improvement in deciding upon the degree of need for structural improvement. In short, the system for rating and scheduling bridge repair may also need to be improved.

[Sanslines]

To those who are blaming the bridge failure on "conservatives" it should be noted that this particular bridge had gotten regular maintenance, and was getting extensive maintenance even at the time of the collapse.


Factual information bears this out. From one of my above posted reports:

"In 2005, according to Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters, the I-35W bridge scored a 50 out of 120 rating in a federal highway inspection of structural integrity, which marked the bridge as structurally deficient. "None of those ratings indicated that there was any kind of danger here, it simply says that we need to schedule this bridge for rehabilitation and that was in the future program for MinnDOT," she says."

[nimrod]

Apples and oranges people, apples and oranges. Even though you can find out exactly why a bridge fails from a engineering stand point, it does not explain why the politics in keeping it safe has failed.

There were maintenance workers on the bridge at the time of failure, but they were only there for the resurfacing, not making the bridge structurly more secure.

City, state, or nation, the lowest bid wins the contract, and that means cut-backs. If the cut-backs are in labor you run the risk of having someone who does not know what they are doing working on something they should not, and something gets screwed up. If it is materials, you end up with a weaker product that does not last. Either way you have an inferior product.

Gathering information on why the bridge failed structuraly does not mean we will build better bridges, it only means we have the knowledge of what not to do next time. If they find out that it failed because it was not maintained properly, then why was it ignored? Whatever the outcome it does not bring the people who died back.

[walter05]

Sanslines;

I made no claim on what the proximate cause of the collapse was. Instead, I was addressing the way the elected officials vote to spend money. I was addressing the claim that the Reagan administration started the process that caused the failure.

I am a liberal Democrat. I worked hard to defeat Ronald Reagan twice. I worked to defeat both president Bush the elder and the junior. I am no conservative Republican. However, I want to find the real cause so that we fix what really went wrong. I was attempting to deflect the blame the Conservatives knee jerk reaction.

I agree that no one would knowingly allow an unsafe bridge to remain and be used. I agree this is true for Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives, and Liberals. However, there are priorities. There are also margins of safety.

When Ronald Reagan was able to put his tax changes in place, with what was known as the "Economic Recovery Tax Act", he passed it through a Democratic House of Representatives. Speaker Tip O'Neil called the president and told him that the Speaker would now pray that the Speaker was wrong and the president right.

Somehow, in the past, politicians on the right and left could fight hard on issues without the name calling and pointing fingers. I would like to follow the lead of the great Speaker of the House. I can argue issues without personal attacks. I would like others to do the same.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by walter05:
Sanslines;

I made no claim on what the proximate cause of the collapse was. Instead, I was addressing the way the elected officials vote to spend money. I was addressing the claim that the Reagan administration started the process that caused the failure.

I am a liberal Democrat. I worked hard to defeat Ronald Reagan twice. I worked to defeat both president Bush the elder and the junior. I am no conservative Republican. However, I want to find the real cause so that we fix what really went wrong. I was attempting to deflect the blame the Conservatives knee jerk reaction.

I agree that no one would knowingly allow an unsafe bridge to remain and be used. I agree this is true for Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives, and Liberals. However, there are priorities. There are also margins of safety.

When Ronald Reagan was able to put his tax changes in place, with what was known as the "Economic Recovery Tax Act", he passed it through a Democratic House of Representatives. Speaker Tip O'Neil called the president and told him that the Speaker would now pray that the Speaker was wrong and the president right.

Somehow, in the past, politicians on the right and left could fight hard on issues without the name calling and pointing fingers. I would like to follow the lead of the great Speaker of the House. I can argue issues without personal attacks. I would like others to do the same.

Walter,

My approach is beyond politics. I am not interested in blaming Conservative Republicans or Liberal Democrats. This problem goes well beyond that and I chose to ignore political party maneuvering. What I am trying to make others aware of is that this bridge collapse may very well be a terrible accident. I do not think that individuals knowingly witheld needed repairs with the understanding that this bridge would collapse. Such allegations are criminal in nature and would never be tolerated by society.

I believe that the 'problem' was started well before Reagan. Documented history of other failures, such as the collapse of the West Side Highway in Manhattan occured well before Reagan. It is also very important to note that before the advent of computers, finite element analysis and other vibration and structural load anaalysis software, bridges were built with a safety load factor that may have reached 100. Computers allowed engineers to better understand and refine the approach to bridge building with the result that load factors could be greatly decreased. The end result is that some bridges built after WW II may not have a great enough safety factor to allow an enormous capacity for vehicle and environmental 'abuse'.

Until the real reasons are known for this bridge collapse, what we all say here is pure speculation. Once the reasons are know, then inspectors may very well learn that they need to inspect other aspects of bridges. Once inspectors uncover problems, then new priorities can be established to hasten maintenance schedules.

However, at this point, it is purely speculation and conjecture to conclusively state that more frequent inspections and maintenance could have prevented this accident. If one of the real causes turns out to be due to vibration fatigue and inspectors presently do not have an accurate means to judge the extent of vibration fatigue, then you can be sure that a new means of establishing and quantifying this fatigue and incorporating this measurement into inspection reports and maintenance schedules will occur. This will then have nothing to do with any President of any political party and will clearly demonstrate a lack of knowledge within the present system.

[Naturist Mark]

Union obstruction to doing work has been a real plague of construction in the US.
Unions? Do you realize that the USA has the weakest unions in the industrialized world? - yet the infrastructure in our egregiously over-unionized G-7 partners are NOT crumbling.

American unions have been decimated over the last 25 years, the exact same period of time as the official policy of infrastructure neglect. And that is NOT a coincidence.

[Naturist Mark]

Blaming "conservatives" for some mythical lack of repair funding for the collapse is just rubbish. Whatever caused the collapse, it wasn't a "conservative" refusal to fund maintenance. One of the dead and missing was a maintenance worker who was engaged in doing needed repair and maintenance when it collapsed.

The NTSP has said that it may be 18 months before they can say what it was that caused this particular bridge to collapse. Until then we can plainly see that it wasn't a "conservative" lack of funding for needed maintenance projects which were funded and ongoing.


Wrong. It was NOT a repair project - it was just the periodic repaving that all roadways require every few years. They specifically REJECTED a proposal to reinforce the bridge structure itself with steel plating as too expensive, and opted for an accelerated inspection schedule instead.

Lack of funding necessitated delaying necessary repairs systemwide. The gamble over the last 25 years is that we can continuously put off 30 to 50 percent of necessary repairs and replacements until later. We are losing some of those bets.

[Naturist Mark]

No we most certainly do NOT know what were the exact causes of this bridge failure. You are speculating and you do not have the facts in front of you. The complete analysis has not been concluded and until the proper failure analysis is completed, no informed person will promote a conclusion.

Obfuscation.

We'll know soon enough what the particular mode of failure was.

But ...

We know EXACTLY why the bridge was allowed to fail. It was allowed to stay in service without repairs or replacement long after it was known to be deficient. PERIOD

Exploring the various ways that bridges fail, and the art and science of engineering is interesting, and important in determining how to deal with infrastructure problems, but that has nothing at all to do with why the bridge was allowed to fail.

[MoonShadow]

My question about this bridge is why after a 1990 report by Federal goverment rated the bridge as structurally deficient with significant "corrosion in" the bearings. Then in 2001, the University of Minnesota civil engineering department indicated a weakness at the joints where the steel holds the concrete deck above the river. Then in 2005, the US Department of Transportation Bridge data bases said the showed a score out of 100 of 50 indicating rehabilitation of the bridge. Then in June 2006 a bridge inspection report noted problems in cracking and fatigue. Overall, it was scored as structurally deficient....why didn't the Minnesota Dept of Transportation begin rehabilitation and remedial work right away?

Sounds like the Minnesota DOT is lacking significantly in their priorities.

[Naturist Mark]

Sounds like the Minnesota DOT is lacking significantly in their priorities.
They made a bet that they could continue to delay major expenditures on that bridge while they addressed other (seemingly) more urgent problems. Turned out to be a bad bet.

The scary thing is that Minnesota is just about the very BEST in the USA in its attention to highway infrastructure.

[Sanslines]

Obfuscation.

We'll know soon enough what the particular mode of failure was.

Obfuscation? LMAO! We do not presently know why this bridge failed and you know it! Attempts to play word games or the political blame game at this stage divert from the most important work of trying to understand from a technical and analytical viewpoint why this bridge failed so that we can prevent future failures. Since when do you call trying to eliminate the hysterics and blame game from this problem and trying to get to the real truth 'obfuscation'. C'mon Mark, you most certainly can do better that this.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sounds like the Minnesota DOT is lacking significantly in their priorities.
They made a bet that they could continue to delay major expenditures on that bridge while they addressed other (seemingly) more urgent problems. Turned out to be a bad bet.

The scary thing is that Minnesota is just about the very BEST in the USA in its attention to highway infrastructure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is truly scary.
What is the most depressing is that West Virginia IS the best.
Our roads are in horrid shape and all the obfuscating, two who we all know are doing, isn't worth a Tinker's Da*n in mending the systemic neglect of our nation's infrastructure .. perpetuating that neglect by denial isn't mending what is broken, or at least it isn't to any sane and rational individual, anyway.

What has fallen under the weight of the mounds of obfuscating horse-sh*t some are piling on this thread (by design, by the way, as they ever are doing on any thread they have posted on), is the thread was began as a means of expressing condolences and sympathy for those who experienced the tragedy up close and personal ... and when questions reared themselves up as to why the bridge failed and the underlying fact that systemic outright neglect on the part of those with 'conservatives mentality' and lackadaisical efforts of those not of the 'conservatives mentality' over the last thirty years of our nation's infrastructure is the root cause of of the collapse the Obfuscators began to howl and trying to divert the topic away from that fact.
They do not like it because they have failed to do so - no matter how many obfuscating posts they post in a row trying to fatigue the reader and make them loose focus on the sound reasoning contained in the posts not trying to divert the topic away from the reality of the matter.

The mechanical means of the I-35W bridge collapse ARE INCONSEQUENTIAL! Fretting over them is just a means of denial of the root problem. The next 'bridge' could be anywhere at any time and its mechanical means of failure will also be inconsequential so long as the systemic neglect espoused by the conservatives is allowed to remain in place ... PERIOD!

[Sanslines]

We know EXACTLY why the bridge was allowed to fail. It was allowed to stay in service without repairs or replacement long after it was known to be deficient. PERIOD

C'mon Mark, you continue to attempt to play upon people's ignorance here. You know very well that there is a whole range and category of of deficiencies. Bridges are classified according to the severity of deficiency and those in need of repair the most get it first.
Neither you or I or anyone else for that matter know the real reasons why this bridge failed. So please stop attempting to play God and act as if you have cardinal knowledge concerning this bridge. If you have read anything that I posted above, you would at least consider the possibility that there were either unknown or undetected structural problems with this bridge. If you have any background in detailed engineering statics, dynamics, vibration analysis, FEA, strength of materials, and engineering materials science, you would know very well that what you propose is an emotional and simplistic solution to what may very well be a complicated problem. Let us let the experts analyze and decide why this bridge failed and let them come to the proper solution as to what needs to be done based upon facts. Neither you or I have access to all of the detailed history of this bridge. Neither you or I at this point know exactly why this bridge failed. I admit my lack of detailed history and knowledge of the particulars of this bridge. Will you?

[Sanslines]

The scary thing is that Minnesota is just about the very BEST in the USA in its attention to highway infrastructure.

If you honestly believe this, then you continue to contradict yourself concerning this bridge failure. You are always assuming that MN DOT knew exactly what the problems were with this bridge and that those problems were just ignored due to lack of funding. This implies that serious structural bridge problems are willfully being ignored by state and federal inspectors and contractors and that these bridges are in imminent danger of catastrophic failure. Do you really believe that the federal, state, and local governments are performing a coverup of conditions that are know to be deadly to the public? Sounds like a major scandelous conspiracy theory to me.

[Sanslines]

Exploring the various ways that bridges fail, and the art and science of engineering is interesting, and important in determining how to deal with infrastructure problems, but that has nothing at all to do with why the bridge was allowed to fail.

Engineering has everything to do with answering the questions as to WHY this bridge failed. You most certainly do not know at this point if this bridge was allowed to fail. The first step in any logical and rational analysis of this problem is to determine the factual reasons as to why it failed. Once those reasons are determined, then the next step is to determine if there was any a priori knowledge concerning the bridge failure. You keep making assumptions and allegations that have yet to be either proved or disproved and are trying to masquerade these assumptions and allegations as factual proof. Do you know something that the rest of us presently don't - including all of the bridge experts and DOT personnel?

[nacktman]

Multiple obfuscating post people, multiple obfuscating posts.

Let's all count the next set together, shall we?! It was only three this time.

The MECHANICAL MEANS of the I-35W Bridge collapse ARE INCONSEQUENTIAL!
The ROOT PROBLEM is the SYSTEMIC NEGLECT of our nation's infrastructure espoused by the "CONSERVATIVE'S MENTALITY", and until that NEGLECT is abandoned for the true priorities of this nation 'Bridges' will continue to fail and in each case the mechanical means will remain inconsequential so long as the espoused neglect of the conservatives remains.

[Naturist Mark]

Obfuscation? LMAO! We do not presently know why this bridge failed and you know it!

Sure we know. They knew it was structurally deficient. They kept it in service - betting it would get by until they freed up enough funds from other projects to work on it - or replace it. How the mechanical failure occurred is just a detail - they KNEW it wasn't up to standards, and knew that since 1990. BUT THEY HAD NO GOOD CHOICES, they had to let some things slide because they weren't allowed to do everything that was necessary. Their best guess was that remediation on this bridge could be safely delayed. They guessed wrong.

Also note what I am saying - I have not once said the Minnesota DOT was guilty of malfeasance. It was PREVENTED from doing its job by the deliberate underfunding of infrastructure over the past 25 years. When you only get 2/3rds of the money you need to do a job, you make hard choices, guesses, and tough bets. When you have to do that year after year after year, the odds are bound to catch up with you.

The mechanical details of the collapse are only the method of failure. The CAUSE was the deliberate policy of neglect.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:


...Obfuscation? LMAO!...

One suspects that would take a lot of laughing, a herculean task in fact.

However, that might be, Mark and Nacktman and a couple of others have sliced through the verbiage, canards, nattering, mutual self-stroking, and obfuscation to clearly delineate the real issues. They have done so tactfully, courteously, with concisely clear-cut, fact-based arguments. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

Me, however; lacking refinement, tact, and empathy for fools, well, I will only add that those who support and vote for the politicians and officials who pursue the distorted dream of conservatism are culpable in those deaths.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Engineering has everything to do with answering the questions as to WHY this bridge failed. You most certainly do not know at this point if this bridge was allowed to fail. The first step in any logical and rational analysis of this problem is to determine the factual reasons as to why it failed. Once those reasons are determined, then the next step is to determine if there was any a priori knowledge concerning the bridge failure. You keep making assumptions and allegations that have yet to be either proved or disproved and are trying to masquerade these assumptions and allegations as factual proof. Do you know something that the rest of us presently don't - including all of the bridge experts and DOT personnel?
Well said, but I do not expect that you will ever get through to a few people who just want to blame conservatives for anything and everything. The minds were set in stone long ago.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Obfuscation? LMAO! We do not presently know why this bridge failed and you know it!

Sure we know. They knew it was structurally deficient. They kept it in service - betting it would get by until they freed up enough funds from other projects to work on it - or replace it. How the mechanical failure occurred is just a detail - they KNEW it wasn't up to standards, and knew that since 1990. BUT THEY HAD NO GOOD CHOICES, they had to let some things slide because they weren't allowed to do everything that was necessary. Their best guess was that remediation on this bridge could be safely delayed. They guessed wrong.

Also note what I am saying - I have not once said the Minnesota DOT was guilty of malfeasance. It was PREVENTED from doing its job by the deliberate underfunding of infrastructure over the past 25 years. When you only get 2/3rds of the money you need to do a job, you make hard choices, guesses, and tough bets. When you have to do that year after year after year, the odds are bound to catch up with you.

The mechanical details of the collapse are only the method of failure. The CAUSE was the deliberate policy of neglect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This discussion clearly shows that you do not have any sort of technical background. I have explained several times why it is important to determine the exact causes of bridge failure so that the proper remedies can be used to prevent such failures from happening again. You casually dismiss all of this to promote your biased hatred towards a certain political party. How can you expect anyone to ever take you seriously?

You chose to ignore the technical aspects and instead resort to the hysterical, media driven approach. Such an approach never solves any real world problem. It only increases ratings, sells media copy, and plays upon people's ignorances and fears. I have tried to explain to you what the words 'structually deficient' mean. However, it is clear that you can not see that there is a wide range of structually deficiencies - some much more severe then others. I have also tried to explain to you that no one - not even you - knows the exact cause of this bridge failure. It may very well be that in the end no amount of inspections and resulting maintenance could have prevented this trajedy if the problem turns out to be due to vibration fatigue that could not have been detected by present means. Determing the real reasons for any failure is not some 'mere' technical detail to those who are entrusted by society to make the only meaningful decisions as to how public projects are constructed and maintained. It is clear that such minor details (as you call them) bore you and that you have no real interest in understanding the real reasons for failure.

It also seems that all of the real fact finding details must bore you to the point that you continue to resort to the political blame game without even attempting to understand the real causes of the problem. It is therefore impossible to have an intellingent conversation which discusses anything other then biased and hateful politics. Everything that you have said above is pure conjecture on your part which is used to support your biased political opinions. You do Not have all of the answers but continue to present conclusions as if you do. You do NOT know the exact cause of the failure and therefore you most certainly do not know if this problem could have been prevented with more maintenance if the problem was not even known. (How can any rational person ever conclude that a problem could be prevented by maintenance if the specific problme that caused the failure was never identified?) You are not a civil engineer and do not know what the specific structural deficiencies of this bridge were and you clearly do not understand the process of inspections, bridge rankings, and resulting actions. Everything you have subsequently said about MN DOT making 'hard choices' is based upon your previous premisses which may or may not be true. Neither you, I, or anyone else know all of the facts concerning this failure. To use this trajedy to promote biased and hateful party politics is the real trajedy.

One aspect that has clearly been demonstrated in this thread (as well as others over and over again) is how pure political hatred towards one party or the other can reach such an extreme that it totally and completely clouds a person's rational and cognitive abilities. Many of us have always been told to never hate others for hate is self consuming. We now have three very clear examples in this forum of how pure hatred and complete political bias has destroyed the ability of some to engage in rational and intelligent conversation and has obviously completely consumed such individuals to an extreme extent. How sad!

The really amazing thing here is how such individuals were 'destroyed' by turning themselves into closed minded and hateful individuals by a President that they don't even know. Wow, G. W. Bush must have some pretty amazing powers indeed!

[usmc1]

Right-wing talk-show blatheration does not suffice! I stand by what I have written, and the facts and history support me.

If the shoes of accountability are pinching a few of you. Good! It's about time someone has tightened the laces on those metaphorical shoes which seem to be fitting a bit tightly given the squeals and stewings coming from the right wing over the past few days.

[MoonShadow]

Sanslines, great posts here. You make excellent points and I have really enjoyed reading them. I do hope DOT learns something that will make future bridges safer.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by nacktman:
The MECHANICAL MEANS of the I-35W Bridge collapse ARE INCONSEQUENTIAL!
The ROOT PROBLEM is the SYSTEMIC NEGLECT of our nation's infrastructure espoused by the "CONSERVATIVE'S MENTALITY", and until that NEGLECT is abandoned for the true priorities of this nation 'Bridges' will continue to fail and in each case the mechanical means will remain inconsequential so long as the espoused neglect of the conservatives remains.


The left wing political bologna never ends. They are blind to reason and rational discourse regarding even a comletely mechanical problem.

The left wing mind knows only one mantra: Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives...

You can't discuss with them, you can't reason with them, they are not concerned with engineering, science, or reason. The actual reasons for bridges collapsing are not real to them. The many dead and injured people are meaningless outside of another excuse to blame conservatives.

There is no point in trying to debate with a leftist or a pig. It only makes them angry and wastes your time.

Oink!...Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... OINK OINK....Blame Bush... Oink....Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Oink Oink...Blame Conservatives...

ROFLMAO

Blessings
Bob

[walter05]

Sanslines;

There are a couple of questions that people engaged in this topic are attempting to understand. You are attempting to combine them into one. I think this is leading to some confusion.

First, I have not made one comment about what the proximate cause of the bridge failure is. Neither has Naturist Mark, Nacktman, or USMC1. The four of us have been attempting to understand why there appears to have been a neglect on making maintenance a priority.

Second, you have been attempting to address the question of proximate cause. Except Bob, the rest of us are not discussing that.

The fact that four of us are discussing a different question does not make that obfuscating. You have complained twice about my not getting involved in the discussion of the engineering process. I have agreed with you that it is too early to know anything about that. Despite agreeing with you, you are still complaining that I am discussing something else.

Naturist Mark, Nacktman, USMC1, and I accept that it may take up to eighteen months to know the true proximate cause of the bridge's structural failure. However, we wonder how many other bridges are about to fail. We are wondering whether or not other bridges are less than safe due to neglect. This is a fair topic for discussion.

If it takes 18 months to know the exact cause, and another 18 months to legislate money for needed remedial work on bridges, another 18 months to handle the contracting, and 6 months to start the work, that means 5 years before work will start. We think that is too long. None of us want our families on or under a structure that fails next.

If there are other bridges that need attention, we want to start 18 months ahead by pushing our legislatures, congress, governors, and president to act. If we can get immediate attention, then there may be some legislation in some states in as little as 6 months and work could start in a year. During the four years saved, how many lives will be saved?

I am educated in political science. I have been an elected member of a county Democratic committee. I have worked as a lobbyist with the Georgia State Legislature. I understand how the political process works. If we wait too long, nothing will be done.

I disagree with Naturist Mark, Nacktman, and USMC1 on whom to blame. They raise a valid question as too whether or not the government has invested enough in ongoing maintenance due to conservative politicians' disdain for government. I disagree as to whether or not that is the main reason but agree it is a part of the reason.

Naturist Mark, Nacktman, USMC1, and I want our governments to start the process of protecting our lives now. In many places, state DOTs are inspecting bridges now to the best of the ability. The engineers are not waiting to get all of the answers. We want structures identified as structurally deficient to be repaired as soon as possible.

You choose to refer to it as obfuscation when we discuss a different question from the one you are asking.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Obfuscation? LMAO! We do not presently know why this bridge failed and you know it!

Sure we know. They knew it was structurally deficient. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uh, no, that is not the reason the bridge collapsed and Sanslines was entirely accurate to say that we don't know. The term "structurally deficient" is a catch all for just about everything including being completely structurally sound but not as wide as revised current ideal lane design. A bridge that was built to older lane width standards may be solidly built enough to last a thousand years but would be called "sturctural deficiant" because the standard changed. It may be called "structurally dificient" simply because more people built homes in the area beyond the bridge and the number of lanes is not considered adequate for the demand for crossing.

In fact, the term "structurally deficient" has become such a catch all that its virtually meaningless.

Nobody from the MN DOT knew last week of any defect in the bridge that would cause its collapse. Being labled "structurally deficient" has not caused the colapse of tens of thousands of other bridges. They were in process of maintenance and repair that was deemed adequate and necissary. Yet some sill claim that lack of funding for needed maintenance and repair caused the colapse. We don't even know yet if poorly executed repairs were the cause of the colapse. We don't know if it would have stood another several decades if they had left it alone and not tried to do repairs. In fact, we just don't know why it fell.

It is unfortunate that certain political hacks try to use every disaster from hurricanes to bridge collapse to Blame Bush. It's become so redundant and so repetitive that it's like crying "WOLF" 4000 times too many. Nobody else is listening any more.

Blessings
Bob

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by walter05:
Despite agreeing with you, you are still complaining that I am discussing something else.

Uh huh. The usual old
Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives... But it's really not much of a discussion.


Naturist Mark, Nacktman, USMC1, and I accept that it may take up to eighteen months to know the true proximate cause of the bridge's structural failure. However, we wonder how many other bridges are about to fail. We are wondering whether or not other bridges are less than safe due to neglect. This is a fair topic for discussion.

If it takes 18 months to know the exact cause, and another 18 months to legislate money for needed remedial work on bridges, another 18 months to handle the contracting, and 6 months to start the work, that means 5 years before work will start. We think that is too long. None of us want our families on or under a structure that fails next.

Repair work on this particular bridge was funded and started months BEFORE the bridge collapsed. You deliberately ignore that inconvenient fact.

What you, nactman, and mc1 are doing is naught but the usual old political bologna. Blame Bush, blame conservatives, ignore the victims and real problems. Until someone figures out why the bridge collapsed -- even WITH repairs being done -- it obviously will not make other bridges safer to rush out and begin questionalbe repairs.


If there are other bridges that need attention, we want to start 18 months ahead by pushing our legislatures, congress, governors, and president to act. If we can get immediate attention, then there may be some legislation in some states in as little as 6 months and work could start in a year. During the four years saved, how many lives will be saved?

Work started doing what? Work was ALREADY STARTED on the I-35 bridge. But don't let inconvenient facts get in your way. Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives...


I am educated in political science. I have been an elected member of a county Democratic committee.

That much is obvious. You are qualified to rant about blaming Bush and campaigning for the minds of the poor and ignorant of our land. Ms. Sanslines obviously is far better prepared to discuss the causes of bridge failures.

Blessings
Bob

[nudebushwalker]

Need to watch that blood pressure there, Bob - might do yourself a serious injury if you're not too careful...

Can hear your shouting from over here - more than ten thousand miles away..

Trying to defend the indefensible, (i.e. any deceitful and lying, right-wing, war-mongering, anti-environment, pro-oil, politicians ..) with those attacks on anyone you consider to be from a left-leaning perspective. No doubt you could probably also consider most contributors on here to be a bunch of pinko', liberal commies?

p.s. I took the position of blaming all those politicians, economic rationalists, and anyone else, who is responsible for any neglect in any country - rather than picking on any one party - when I made earlier comments on this subject. It isn't just roads and bridges, either... All infrastructure - water, energy, waste disposal [e.g. sewerage, garbage, industrial pollution.], public transport, communications - needs urgent attention in most,if not all, developed and developing places - this is a worldwide problem.
And then there's the problem of what happens when the oil runs out - something else that Bush and his mates [including Howard, Harper, Putin, Brown and Co.] are happy to ignore, as they chase the big dollars with their mates in the oil, mining and energy sectors.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by nacktman:
MThe MECHANICAL MEANS of the I-35W Bridge collapse ARE INCONSEQUENTIAL!
Pure nonsense. Too bad that you can't see that.

Mechanical problems and what needs to be done about it is at the core of the failure to address infrastructure issues. You have to first identify the nature of the problems and then set priorities based upon how serious they are.

Politicians won't spend money on something unless it is determined that it is something that is critical or something that will improve their likelihood of getting re-elected.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by nudebushwalker:
Need to watch that blood pressure there, Bob - might do yourself a serious injury if you're not too careful...

Your medical assesments are irrational and wrong. Sorry about that.


Trying to defend the indefensible, (i.e. any deceitful and lying, right-wing, war-mongering, anti-environment, pro-oil, politicians ..) with those attacks on anyone you consider to be from a left-leaning perspective. No doubt you could probably also consider most contributors on here to be a bunch of pinko', liberal commies?

Bob is mostly a libertarian. The right wingnuts look about as bad as the leftist wingnuts. Some of the contributors on here probably are, in fact, liberal commies. The do exist, you know.


p.s. I took the position of blaming all those politicians, economic rationalists, and anyone else, who is responsible for any neglect in any country - rather than picking on any one party - when I made earlier comments on this subject. It isn't just roads and bridges, either... All infrastructure - water, energy, waste disposal [e.g. sewerage, garbage, industrial pollution.], public transport, communications - needs urgent attention in most,if not all, developed and developing places - this is a worldwide problem.

Blaming someone for bad roads is a common passtime, and so is blaming the "orange barral" delays when they get out and improve the roads. Overall, roads are immesurably better than a century ago, even 25 years ago. If it weren't for all the illegal immigration our population would be close to stable and our money could be spent doing maintenance instead of always providing for more and more cars and people. One of the huge down sides to unchecked immigration is the overcrowding of all of our infrastructure that isn't sized for so many people.

It might make as much sense to blame the supporters and excusers of unchecked immigration for the lack of adequate maintenance. It is the huge increases in population driving the need for building new faciilites instead of spending the same money fixing the existing infrastructure.



And then there's the problem of what happens when the oil runs out - something else that Bush and his mates [including Howard, Harper, Putin, Brown and Co.] are happy to ignore, as they chase the big dollars with their mates in the oil, mining and energy sectors.

When the oil runs out it seems to me that it would be better to have bought and used up all of THEIRS so that OURS is still left.

I get tired of the disingenuous whining about "big oil" when those who whine about it live in an economy that was created by abundent energy and their standard of living is wholely dependent on it. The ones who whine are often the same ones who insist on drinking water imported from thousands of miles away, eating rare raw fish extracted from oceans at great cost of energy, etc. They are the same ones who have blocked cheap clean nuclear energy in the US for decades while other more rational nations have moved on ahead. They are the same people who supported spending uncounted billions on "The War on Poverty" during the Johnson Administratoin when the faulty I-35 bridge was inadequately built (DEM Congress and President) and still are supporting candidates who promise to "Eliminate Poverty" if they get elected (B. Hussein Obama et. all).

Ipods to bicycle tires to the food we eat are the productes of cheap oil. So is half the human populaton. Instead of the usual political rants, blaming "Big Oil" and industry that provides jobs and products for working people, why not lobby for nuclear energy, populaton control, limited immagration, and do something about it?

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

Yep, right-wing talk radio blatheration is being attempted. It won't work. Not only does that old dog not hunt, the son-of-a-gun won't even leave the porch.

It isn't about Obama, LBJ, Bush, or Chernobyl for that matter. It is not about future articles in engineering trade publications, or studies or memorial services. It is about innocent, homeward bound people dying as the result of a dismal political ideology which thwarts spending on health, eduction, welfare and services including infrastructure inspection, monitoring, upkeep and repair or replacement.

People who support and vote for polticians who pursue those conservative policies are accountable for those deaths. As they are for other deaths from other situtations of neglect and failure to provide basic services and protections.

All the posturings and huffing and puffing wind-bagging does not distract any thinking and caring person from those very simple and extemely clear facts.

[Sanslines]

There are a couple of questions that people engaged in this topic are attempting to understand. You are attempting to combine them into one. I think this is leading to some confusion.

Walter,

You must be reading something entirely different here. I have no issue with your approach to this topic. I think that I have made my positions very clear and we have not discussed anything beyond my two replies to your posts.

In my first reply, I basically agreed with you (however I perhaps could have clarified this much better) and my intention was to clarify how the bridge inspection process works. This was not so much meant as a rebuttal to your post but an elaboration to explain that the technical aspects of this problem are also very important. You agreed with this and so as far as I see things, there is no contradiction between us.

You subsequently repied with a political focus and I replied by refocusing with a technical explanation. Out discussions ended at this point.

I am in no way complaining about your very civil discussion about the political aspects.

I have never referred to anything that you (or anyone else) has stated as obfuscation. Mark initially referred to one of my replies as obfuscation and the other individual continued this trend with vengeance. I have no idea where you get this idea that I referred to other's replies as obfuscation and if you reread some of the above posts you will clearly see this. Your allegation of my accusing others of obfuscation is false.

I have never associated or lumped what you have said with the other three.

I have never complained about your not getting involved with the engineering discussions. I am not complaining that you are discussing anything else.

I do not know why you are associating my statements and replies to Mark are somehow also directed to you when I have not directed any replies to you other then my original two.

This topic has now included many people and Bobx, Moonshadow, MJ, and myself are clearly not the only ones who wish to at least acknowledge the technical aspects of this particular bridge failure and do not wish to make this thread another blanket example of 'we hate this or that political party'.

[walter05]

Bob;

You quoted me "Originally posted by walter05:
Despite agreeing with you, you are still complaining that I am discussing something else. "

You then accused me of "Uh huh. The usual old
Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Blame Conservatives... But it's really not much of a discussion." I was responding to Sanslines. I was not talking about conservatives or Bush.

I never blamed Bush. Your charge is false.

I don't agree with Nacktman, USMC1, or Naturist Mark to the extent that they believe that Bush is responsible. I believe that many politicians share responsibility for this neglect. Since Bush has been president for almost seven years, he is one that shares some responsibility.

I will state again that the proximate cause of the bridge's collapse is unknown. Until the investigation by the engineers and experts is completed, we will not know the exact cause.

However, neglect of maintenance and/or failure to make maintenance a priority appears to be contributing factors. USMC1 said "It is about innocent, homeward bound people dying as the result of a dismal political ideology which thwarts spending on health, eduction, welfare and services including infrastructure inspection, monitoring, upkeep and repair or replacement."

I don't agree with him that ideology is the main cause. I thought the idea posed by Caipora that politicians prefer to take credit for building new than for maintenance to be more likely to be a major factor.

Even though USMC1, Naturist Mark, Nacktman, and I disagree on how we got to this point, we agree on one major point. We want our state and federal governments to make correcting known defects that may affect safety a major priority. We don't want someone else to die.

[Sanslines]

We want our state and federal governments to make correcting known defects that may affect safety a major priority. We don't want someone else to die.


Everyone can agree upon this. However, there are some in this forum (Walter NOT included) who immediately start blaming a certain party for all the ills known to mankind without even understanding the reasons behind (in this particular case) a bridge failure.

We do not know what caused this bridge failure and until we do, we can not blame anyone for neglect. If the problem that caused this bridge failure could not be detected by the present inspection methods, then all of the inspections and maintenance proceedures in the world would not have averted this catastrophy.
Until we know the facts and reasons, we should not use this as another political football to blame politicians of a certain party due to closed minded political bias.

Clarification Note: The above statments are not meant as a complaint or disagreement with Walter's reply. They are meant as an explanation, clarification, and support of his reply.

[nimrod]

Another arguement that both sides have valid points, but the opposing side cannot see it. There are some that acknowledge that we do not know the exact engineering reason as to why the bridge fell, but are trying to make the point that even though they do not know the specific "why" there is also something else going on.

Since people are so offended by calling it a "conservitive" mind set, lets call it by a truer name, selfishness, plain and simple. What will put more money in my pocket? Forget the consequences of my actions as long as I am rich in the end. It is that type of thinking that makes the term "structually deficient" a broad term instead of its true meaning.

[nacktman]

Walter, if you read carefully, I have not blamed anyone or any 'party'.

It is the right-wing apologists who are trying to blame individuals or 'parties', as a matter of fact they have been the only ones to cite any individuals or 'party' on this thread in reference to 'blame'.
None of those from the center to left of the "ideological spectrum" have 'blamed' any single person or 'party' ... laying 'blame' on those that espouse the ideology of neglect and denial is not 'blaming' any particular individual or 'party'.

I lay the 'blame' squarely at the feet of the 'conservatives mentality' that has gutted existing infrastructures and neglected what they have gutted and denied the means to build new, maintain, repair or replace what is still in place ... which is rapidly deteriorating - the collapse is but a symptom of a huge problem with priorities in this nation. 'Conservatives mentality' is a mindset not a 'party' or an individual.

MJ, the mechanical means ARE inconsequential. It was known to be deficient structurally. It was not repaired. It failed. End of story.

Finding out exactly what was the mechanical means of its failure will assist in design of future projects and maybe in some future repairs provided the systemic neglect is not still in place - it will be of no use in the repairs needed on other 'bridges' known or suspected to be structurally deficient now.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by nimrod:

Since people are so offended by calling it a "conservitive" mind set, lets call it by a truer name, selfishness, plain and simple. What will put more money in my pocket? Forget the consequences of my actions as long as I am rich in the end. It is that type of thinking that makes the term "structually deficient" a broad term instead of its true meaning.

Well said nimrod.
I will start using the verbage you suggested.
I was attempting to be polite and not call a spade, a spade and thought 'conservatives mentality' would suffice, but it seems decorum and etiquette are lost on some, so I will begin calling a spade, a spade - so 'Selfishness' it is.

[walter05]

Sanslines;

I believe we have come to a rational point of agreement.

Nacktman;

You blame the conservative mentality. As I understand true conservatism, government should be minimized. Government not maintaining infrastructure so that it will have to spend more to build more does not sound conservative to me.

On August 5, at 8;46 P.M. you posted a cartoon that appears to be a representation of President Bush. I thought that was reflecting your opinion or you would not have posted it.

However, our disagreement is minor. We both agree, regardless of the reasons, politicians of all stripes, including liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and independents share responsibility. We voters share responsibility for putting them in.

Now we voters need to make sure that the elected officials, whether they are liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and independents make maintenance and preventing other tragedies a priority.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We want our state and federal governments to make correcting known defects that may affect safety a major priority. We don't want someone else to die.


Everyone can agree upon this. However, there are some in this forum (Walter NOT included) who immediately start blaming a certain party for all the ills known to mankind without even understanding the reasons behind (in this particular case) a bridge failure.

Ooooh, am I included, am I , huh? Huh? Walter's not, but am I? Dang, it's like being in Junior High all over again. I want to be chosen too.

Blaming a "certain party"? A "certain party", I think you've been reading too much Harry Potter,---You Know Who! Hah, C'mon, let's call him Voldemort and see what happens...or Reagan in this case.

We do not know what caused this bridge failure and until we do, we can not blame anyone for neglect. If the problem that caused this bridge failure could not be detected by the present inspection methods, then all of the inspections and maintenance proceedures in the world would not have averted this catastrophy.
Until we know the facts and reasons, we should not use this as another political football to blame politicians of a certain party due to closed minded political bias.

All of which still evades the real issue. Conservative idealogy and policies resulted in a choking off of funds for infrastructure repair. Those policies have resulted in death of innocents. Thsoe people who support, endorse, and espouse those policies are accountable.

Clarification Note: The above statments are not meant as a complaint or disagreement with Walter's reply. They are meant as an explanation, clarification, and support of his reply.

Oh man Walter, you're over like a fat rat in the cheese factory. Dude you're gonna get picked for the dodge ball team and the dance committee--,Hey, you might have a career in politics..oh wait, well you know what I mean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if this were not about tragedy, neglect, denial and just outright selfishness, it all would be an absolute hoot!

[Sanslines]

Pure nonsense. Too bad that you can't see that.

Yes MJ, it is very sad that some just can not seem to comprehend some very simple concepts such as:

1) Identifying a bridge as 'deficient' covers a very wide spectrum and can mean anything from a pothole in a bridge surface to a bridge in danger of immenent collapse.

2) The reason(s) for this bridge collapse are not yet fully known. It may be determined that the reasons for the collapse of this bridge could not have been detected with present inspection procedures and test equipment. It this is determined to be the real reason for the bridge collapse, then an infinite number of inspections and maintenance repairs would not have prevented this collapse. How can you repair a specific problem if you have never identified that specific problem?

3) Blaming politicians or anyone else for that matter of fact at this time when they might have been guilty of nothing (as far as this bridge is concerned) is just plain wrong, irresponsible, and indicates a complete ignorance of any legitimate legal proceding.
Assigning blame and guilt is based upon proven fact and not on emotional hysteria that plays to media hype. Allegations are unsubstantiated accusations as anyone who is even remotely familiar with our legal system will know and acknowledge.

MJ, You are right in that some will never get it no matter how simple we explain some very basic concepts.

[Sanslines]

All of which still evades the real issue. Conservative idealogy and policies resulted in a choking off of funds for infrastructure repair. Those policies have resulted in death of innocents. Thsoe people who support, endorse, and espouse those policies are accountable.

Your complete hatred of conservatives continues to blind you to the facts that you have no direct proof that the reason that this particular bridge failed was due to lack of funds. You do not know the real reasons as to why this bridge failed and yet you continue to force your unsubstatiated conclusion that more funds yielding more inspections and maintenance would have prevented this trajedy. You don't even know the problem and yet you have convinced yourself of a conclusion without bothering to get the real facts. You speak in simplistic generalities and attempt to associate them with this bridge trajedy so that you can advance your political agenda.

What you say may very well be true in other infrastructure situations. However, we are not talking about just any bridge. We are specifically talking about the I-35W Mpls Bridge and your allegations that lack of funds are to blame for this trajedy remain unsubstantiated until the real facts are in.

The rest of your comments concerning my post need no reply. They demonstrate your continued infantile behavior and lack of ability to engage in mature and intelligent conversation.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
We do not know what caused this bridge failure and until we do, we can not blame anyone for neglect. If the problem that caused this bridge failure could not be detected by the present inspection methods, then all of the inspections and maintenance proceedures in the world would not have averted this catastrophy.
Until we know the facts and reasons, we should not use this as another political football to blame politicians of a certain party due to closed minded political bias.

Some while ago Sanslines someone, perhaps you or perhaps someone else, pointed out that during the 1960s many engineers began using computerized design instead of the old hand calculations and guesses. It may very well be that the failure of this bridge after only 40 years was in some part due to inadequate initial design and construction. Regardless of current failure to adequately detect and fix some flaw or other, it seems probable that some part of the original design did not prepare adequately for a sufficiently long lifespan for the bridge. Whatever the initial assumptions or calculations about the design were, in hindsight they apparently were inadequate to create a bridge that would last 100 years. Part of the "new" (in the 1960s) computer calculations was that they allowed engineers to design lighter and less expensive bridges. The lighter and less expensive bridges that resulted may not have been as robust in the long term as the older and less carefully designed bridges. I'm sure that NTSB analysis will look at some of these questoins.

As for blaming "conservative" or "selfish" people for the bridge problems, it should be noted that Democrats controlled the Congress, the White House, and a good part of the Minnosata government when the (demonstrably inadequate) I-35 bridge was built. The bridge was built during Johnson's "War on Poverty" in additon to his Viet Nam war. There was a ton of budget cutting on Eisenhower's Interstate highway system due to demands by both of those programs. Bridges built during those years were pressured to have costs cut to the bone, and overbuilding for future needs wasn't in the budgets when the computer design said that light weight girders would be adequate. In fact, the Demorcratic Congress passed a law making it illegal for the government to spend any additional cost beyond the minimum adequate for the need identified today (1967 for that bridge). Providing redundancy for future increases in traffic was actually illegal. (Anybody else remember the FAR) Seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the left-right political spectrem.

Blessngs
Bob

[Sanslines]

Seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the left-right political spectrem.

Yes there is and open minded individuals will see this and not use tragic situations such as this bridge collapse for political gain. Most Americans are not interested in the political blame game at this point. The want the end result, which is infrastructure which does not fail in service.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by walter05:
Nacktman;

You blame the conservative mentality. As I understand true conservatism, government should be minimized. Government not maintaining infrastructure so that it will have to spend more to build more does not sound conservative to me.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Unfortunately, walter, conservatism as you understand it is not what we have in this nation. nimrod summed it up best and I will use the verbage he suggested here-out. SELFISHNESS is what we have. Another term is Fascism, but that would ruffle the feathers of the Fascists to call them for what they are.</span>

On August 5, at 8;46 P.M. you posted a cartoon that appears to be a representation of President Bush. I thought that was reflecting your opinion or you would not have posted it.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">The editorial in question did indeed include a depiction of the shrub, but that was the artist's choice. I posted it to illustrate the SELFISHNESS prevailing in this nation, not to 'blame' anyone or any 'party', if you understood it otherwise, it was an erroneous understanding of my intent on your part - an understandable one given the pictorial depiction in the editorial. </span>

However, our disagreement is minor. We both agree, regardless of the reasons, politicians of all stripes, including liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and independents share responsibility. We voters share responsibility for putting them in.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Actually, I do not feel we disagree at all. What you, myself and others have been focused on is the 'larger picture', the one with long term effects not sniping about minor details that are not important to the "clarity" of the 'larger picture' ... to put it in computerese: we are looking at 1650 x 1650 clear pixals and those sniping are trying to see 1 pixal clearly and as anyone who knows the capabilities of the human eye will tell you, no one will ever be able to see 1 pixal clearly it's just too small to see clear and distinct lines about it. But hose of use looking at the 1650 x 1650 pixals can tell when 1 or more are not as clear as they should be, because as they become less clear so does the clarity of the entire pixal field.

Also, if you would note I said "those WE elected" in the first post I made to this thread.</span>

Now we voters need to make sure that the elected officials, whether they are liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and independents make maintenance and preventing other tragedies a priority.

Now if the two Right-Wing Apologist Obfuscators would wake up and smell the coffee and cease making multiple obfuscating posts in a row - there are four immediately prior to this post - maybe the thread will return to topic and remain there as they have tried so hard to divert and hijack it and are increasingly viral and vitrolic with their repeated failure to do so.

[Sanslines]

From the article on MSN "Aging Roads May Lead to Tax Hike - Bridge Collapse":


"..........There’s no evidence to suggest that the Mississippi River disaster was a direct result of federal underspending........"

To clarify, this thread specifically concerns the I-35W bridge collapse in Mpls and not national infrastructure in general. The title of this thread is "The Minnesota Bridge Tragedy" and not "Let's Blame the Conservatives for Everything Wrong In This Nation".

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by nacktman:
MJ, the mechanical means ARE inconsequential. It was known to be deficient structurally. It was not repaired. It failed. End of story.
No, the mechanical means of the failure are central to finding why the collapse occurred and reducing the possibility of this happening to another bridge.

It may not have been due just to the age of the bridge, but could potentially have been triggered by something that wasn't anticipated during the resurfacing work. The exact nature of the failure needs to be known.

It is never the end of the story just because you might want to silence people who think you are wrong on a particular issue.

[Naturist Mark]

If you go back and read the comments you'll note that I did not blame Bush for this bridge failure. I noted that he wasn't even Governor of Texas yet back in 1990 when inspectors first declared the bridge structurally deficient. Bush's only 'blame' is for continuing the policy of neglect that Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton followed before him. A policy that the Democrats in Congress had the ability to prevent during at least half of that period of time. Yes, it is the result of a conservative ideology, but I don't blame the Republicans alone.

Nope.

Yes, I DO understand a little something about engineering. I am not an engineer, but I do have a little bit of training in it (once upon a time I worked for the Army Corps of Engineers). I 'get it' that the exact mechanical cause of the collapse isn't yet known (but it doesn't look like a big mystery either - metal fatigue is a likely culprit - and the reason for the rejected plan to add steel plate reinforcments). BUT THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THE POINT.

I have been talking about the political policies that forces the Minnesota DOT, and every other State, to gamble on what compromised bridges are safe enough to leave alone, and which need to be closed, repaired, or replaced without delay.

I watched that policy as it was being hatched. First as a student of Public Administration getting my degree - as Reagan changed priorities and David Stockman arranged for a permanent underfunding of infrastructure - as a Democratic Congress went along. And later in the government working for a department in charge of part of the public infrastructure.

Short shrifting the infrastructure is nothing new, but it was never a deliberate policy of permanent underfunding until Reagan's crowd of Leo Strauss acolytes took power and convinced BOTH parties that the less government does the better off we are. The truth is that there are some things that ONLY government can do right. Infrastructure is one of them - a solid and reliable infrastructure is essential for commerce to flourish and free markets to succeed. Want to know who is really good at infrastructure? Germany and Japan. Guess why.

[Sanslines]

Walter to further clarify:

You previously made this statement above:

"You (Sanslines) choose to refer to it as obfuscation when we discuss a different question from the one you are asking."

If you read the above posting by a certain individual within your group, you will clearly see who is accusing others of obfuscating. Can you now see that your accusation of me was completely and utterly false?

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:
It is about innocent, homeward bound people dying as the result of a dismal political ideology which thwarts spending on health, eduction, welfare and services including infrastructure inspection, monitoring, upkeep and repair or replacement.

It is not at all clear that those items belong in the same list. This bridge was built during Johnson's "War on Poverty." During those years a lot of money was diverted from infrasturcture to fund health, education, welfare and such. It is very possible, perhaps likely, that this bridge failure was in some large part due to budget cutting during design and construction while money was being diverted by a liberal congress and president over to other welfare issues. Building robust bridges wasn't as important as opening a host of new new ineffective welfare programs. Infrastructure often competes for adequate funding with the other items on your list. Historicaly, it has not been the same political mindset at all. Perhaps a little less money spent on the "War on Poverty" instead of robust bridges would have made a lot of difference a few years down the road.



People who support and vote for polticians who pursue those conservative policies are accountable for those deaths. As they are for other deaths from other situtations of neglect and failure to provide basic services and protections.

That is a huge leap without any historical or factual evidence that I've seen. The bridge was minimally or inadequately built by liberal politicians who spent more money on welfare causes and less on robust bridges. Blame conservatives all you want, but show us the history or demonstrable facts.

[Sanslines]

The exact nature of the failure needs to be known.

Yes it does so that we can remedy this problem through whatever means necessary to ensure that it never happens again. This sad situation, at the very least, will require engineers to rethink how ever increasing wear and tear on infrastructure may require more frequent or different attention then previously thought.

[Sanslines]

..........show us the history or demonstrable facts........

Yes, let's cut out the hysterics and work with the facts.

[nacktman]

It seems four is the number today! Four more obfuscating posts in a row vainly attempting to tire the reader out so that they will loose focus on the true picture and nature of the systemic neglect that lead directly to the bridge's collapse.

And, no, MJ knowledge of the mechanical means of the bridge's failure are NOT necessary to the repair and/or replacement of other 'bridges' known or suspected structurally deficient(Each case needs to be addressed as a stand alone case ... similarities may and most likely do exist, but they are superficial to the actual repair and/or replacement or lack thereof due to the systemic neglect and denial presently in fore.). Focusing on them is nothing but a distraction being used by those with the "Selfishness" mentality to keep us from focusing on their systemic neglect and denial of the needs of our nation's infrastructure in order to continue the systemic neglect and denial of the needs of the nation's infrastructure.

[usmc1]

<span class="ev_code_red">BLOODY HANDED CONSERVATISM</span>

The right-wing “Heartland Institute” and a Minnesota conservative group calling itself the “Taxpayers League of Minnesota” were recently chortling over this press release they sent out just day's before the bridge collapsed!

"Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) issued 20 full or partial vetoes of tax hikes and spending increases in May, giving taxpayers reason to smile. …

May 1, Pawlenty, in a move that took everyone by surprise, vetoed an entire $334 million “emergency” capital investment bill. Pawlenty said in his veto message the bill authorized “more than four times more spending on projects than I requested and is simply too large.”

Two weeks later Pawlenty announced another important veto, this one to block a transportation bill containing more than $5 billion in tax and fee increases…

“Buying down property taxes through local government aid programs has never proven to be a long-term solution to property tax pressures,” Pawlenty said in a May 30 veto message.

Phil Krinkie, president of the Taxpayers League of Minnesota, agreed.

“Relying on the benevolence of local units of government to restrain their spending and lower property taxes when the state drops sacks of money in their lap is simply foolish,” Krinkie said. “Thankfully, Minnesota has a governor that recognizes this.”

The transportation bill veto is the only one the DFL [the Democratic Farm and Labor party which controls the Minnesota legislature] tried to override. The attempt came with less than 20 minutes remaining in the session and was defeated by House Republicans, led by Minority Leader Marty Seifert (R-Marshall).

“Democrats made too many campaign promises to win their seats and are now learning they can’t pay for them,” Marshall [Seifert] said after the failed override attempt.

Ultimately, it was the DFL’s inability to override any of Pawlenty’s vetoes–particularly of the transportation bill–that resulted in a comparatively small $3 billion increase in state spending with no new taxes.

Said Krinkie of the 2007 session, “Minnesotans really need to thank Gov. Pawlenty and Rep. Seifert’s House Republicans. These guys stood strong in the face of overwhelming pressure and came through for taxpayers when they really needed them.”

Ooops, nevermind that there are now a few less taxpayers to come through for.

Probative evidence that conservatives and conservative fiscal policy are dangerous to living organism!

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by nacktman:
And, no, MJ knowledge of the mechanical means of the bridge's failure are NOT necessary to the repair and/or replacement of other 'bridges' known or suspected structurally deficient. Focusing on them is nothing but a distraction being used by those with the "Selfishness" mentality to keep us from focusing on their systemic neglect and denial of the needs of our nation's infrastructure in order to continue the systemic neglect and denial of the needs of the nation's infrastructure.
How many engineering degrees do you have? How often do you work with or even talk to the people who work on large scale civil engineering projects such as this?

There is a lot more to this than just throwing money at the issue, even though that is one of the major things that is needed. Failure analysis is critical in something like this in order to better understand when large structures are having problems that need to be taken care of.

Analysis of this failure will no doubt be a factor in future civil engineering education and has already had an impact on inspections around the country.

It is not even slightly a distraction, but is central to building better bridges and coming up with better ways to know when a problem is getting to the point where it has to be taken care of right now.

[nacktman]

Two, MJ, and an entire family of engineers and construction industry executives as well as petroleum industry executives and project managers, who BUILD and have BUILT such as the I-35W Bridge (and much larger projects) here and world wide, and I speak with them on a daily basis. Not all of my and my family's wealth came from 'Bathtub Gin' sales during Prohibition.

You have not noted I have never said more money was needed I said it was "the means" (which entails more than just money), that has been denied and that "the means" needed to be provided.

Analysis of this failure will have an impact on future education, true, but in the now, it has no impact. The collapse in and of itself prompted a more acute focus on inspections around the nation ... waiting for analysis is pointless at this point. General inspections will uncover almost all possible deficiencies and as Mark pointed out good ol' metal fatigue is the most likely culprit in the collapse of the I-35W bridge - it is getting the closest attention from the investigators as we speak (and yes, I have spoken to some of them - they're relatives).

Focusing on the mechanics of the collapse IS A MAJOR DISTRACTION to the solving the problem of the systemic neglect and denial that led to the failure in the first place.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by nacktman:
Focusing on the mechanics of the collapse IS A MAJOR DISTRACTION to the solving the problem of the systemic neglect and denial that led to the failure in the first place.

Do you mean focusing on the Democratic cost cutting by a Dem Congress during the Johnson administration that diverted funds to a totally mismanaged "war on poverty" and ended up building a cheap but inadequate bridge?

I'm so glad we cleared that up.

[nacktman]

Bobx, you need to cease attempting to obfuscate.

If you and your fellow apologist would bother reading entire posts others have made AND comprehend what you read in lieu of half-co(ked knee-jerking you would see that no one is 'blaming' either your precious shrub or the political party it belongs to, nor are they claiming those not of that 'political party' are not culpable for the same neglect and denial, neither 'party' has the exclusive ownership of the "Selfishness".

However it is the 'party' on the right that has the more prevalent and more totality of the "Selfishness" among its membership.

Mark and I have pointed out the neglect has been "official government policy" since the worst president until the shrub slithered into town - raygun - squatted in the oval office.
Prior to that is was more or less a lackadaisical effort for twenty odd years by REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRATIC controlled government but not an "official government policy".
Before that it was twenty odd years of intense efforts to construct and improve the infrastructure during the Democratic presidencies of Roosevelt and Truman and continued into the start of Eisenhower's first term but quickly deteriorated.
Before that was about ten years of neglect but not as an official policy and the forty years prior to that were marked by lackluster efforts.
Ten years before those lackluster efforts was a dozen or so years of intense efforts following the War of Northern Aggression.

Do you see a pattern here? The cycles of efforts or lack thereof? As a nation it is our history (remember you asked for historic examples, well there they are), we build up, then move on to other things and forget all we built doesn't last forever as we want it to and needs to be maintained, repaired and/or replaced periodically.

It has only been since 1980 when raygun started spewing that sewage about 'trickle-down economics' that the seeds of outright official systemic neglect was sown, and 1981 when the buds from those bad seeds ripped a nasty gash in Mother Earth to be what has become the insidious leeching vine of "official government policy" that is choking this nation today.

Sniping, harping, parsing, obfuscating all do nothing to change the root cause of the failure of the bridge - the neglect and denial of the "Selfishness".

The mechanics will most likely play out to nothing more than good ol' metal fatigue.

The fact that the bridge was built when a Democrat was in the White House is immaterial just as the fact that it was a republican (it was the feather, the shrub's father), in the White House when the bridge was first declared deficient is immaterial, and even as much as I detest the shrub the fact he is currently hijacking the office has nothing to do with the collapse directly.
What is directly at fault is the official systemic neglect and denial in place since 1981.

Workmanship and/or materials used to construct the bridge may have been deficient or inadequate for the current use of the bridge, maybe not - regular maintenance is designed in the project from the beginning. Whether that maintenance is/was followed is open for question on any project completed since 1776 until 1981. Since then there is no question as to whether maintenance schedules were followed - the answer is NO.

[Naturist Mark]

Do you mean focusing on the Democratic cost cutting by a Dem Congress during the Johnson administration that diverted funds to a totally mismanaged "war on poverty" and ended up building a cheap but inadequate bridge?
Sigh

No, we are talking about the deliberate policy of underfunding unfrastructure since 1981.

Yes, the engineering was undoubtedly faulty when the 1-35W bridge was built - but that wasn't official policy.

No, money wasn't 'diverted' from one project to pay for another under Johnson - he was professing we could afford BOTH "guns and butter", remember? Remember, back then the top marginal income tax rate that millionaires paid was 70%, and capital gains weren't discounted to a mere 15% rate like today. Still, Johnson managed to run deficits in order to keep building highways and feeding the Vietnam war profiteers - which was paid for by the runaway inflation of the 70s.

"The war on poverty" worked pretty well for a over 10 years. The middle class grew and desperate poverty fell steadily through the sixties and even 70's (despite 'stagflation') It took Reaganomics to thoroughly reverse that trend - which Clinton briefly reversed again until Bush the lessor put it back on track so that 19 out of 20 (http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/crosscurrents.htm) Americans are growing poorer each year. Of course the most salient fact about the 'war on poverty' wasn't that it succeeded in reducing poverty - which it did - but that it made poverty less lethal - AFDC and medicaid made living in poverty somewhat less onerous and crushing of the human spirit - thankfully Clinton fixed that by 'ending welfare as we know it'.

Other than those points, good post.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by nacktman:
Mark and I have pointed out the neglect has been "official government policy" since the worst president until the shrub slithered into town - raygun - squatted in the oval office.


Your repetition of that partisan political nonsense doesn't wash. There doesn't appear to be any evidence of a systematic "official" policy of neglect, in fact the opposite seems to be true.

I found the following, "The Minnesota bridge was deemed structurally deficient in 1990, Dorgan said, "due to corrosion of the bearings, so they were not able to move as freely as designed."

Later, inspectors found corrosion of steel around joints in the bridge and fatigue cracks in the approach spans. Those problems were repaired in the 1990s.

"Recent inspections in 2005 and 2006 found no evidence of cracking or growth in the existing cracks in the tab well that have been there since the day the bridge was built," Minnesota Department of Transportation bridge engineer Dan Dorgan. CNN Story here (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/02/bridge.structure/index.html)

There does not seem to be any evidence of any policy of neglect outside of the partisan political minds of a few leftists. Quite the opposite appears to be true. There has been a long term and ongoing policy and practice of identifying whatever defects they could find and fixing them. They even took the additional step of hiring research engineering from a University to analyse and project future structural improvemetns to head off possiblefuture problems before they happened. Mark and you appear to be way out in left field with your assertions of such a policy of neglect.

Can you provide any real evidence that such a policy existed or had anything to do with this bridge colapsing? Is there any documentation for such a policy, memos, directives, budget figures, etc.? Can you refute the MN bridge engineers who say that known small defects over many years have been repaired rapidly and adequately?

Your continued assertions fall flat without any evidence and in the face of a lot of hard evidence to the contrary.

Blessings
Bob

[nacktman]

Bobx you have been provided with the evidence but you refuse to accept it. You and your fellow apologist are the only ones spewing partisan politics on this thread

Mark has worked in government and for government as have I and seen the official policy up close and personal and in my case hit in the family pocket book due to the official neglect and denial.

Yes I CAN refute the engineers who claim the deficiencies of the I-35W bridge were found out and repaired quickly and adequately. You must have missed the post earlier about a lot of my family being engineers and some are inspecting that very same bridge in question right now ... as a matter of fact I just got off the phone with a cousin when I posted that posting and he said that NO previous repairs are evident on the bridge or in the rubble, <span class="ev_code_RED">(Note: I did not say no repairs had been made, only that no repairs were EVIDENT.)</span>, and that Mark's assertion that the most likely cause will be determined to be metal fatigue is correct at this point.

And case in point: I KNOW the I-35W bridge and its engineering intimately, its identical sister bridge built at the same time (and I mean identical - same plans, same specifications, the whole nine yards), is over the Catawba River on Highway 273 not more than 10 miles from my home. It handles 250,000 cars a day and has had regular inspections and repairs (such as possible given the lack of means over the last 27 years), and is in no danger of collapsing at the moment.

Your continued attempts at obfuscation are boring and insensitive to the tragedy that befell families who lost loved ones due to the bridge collapsing, as well as attempting to perpetuate the systemic neglect and denial as it is in place now.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by nacktman:
Bobx you have been provided with the evidence but you refuse to accept it.

Evidence? Your unfounded assertions? Hello?



Mark has worked in government and for government as have I and seen the official policy up close and personal and in my case hit in the family pocket book due to the official neglect and denial.

In fact, the government has been setting spending records for construction of all kinds including repairs. If your family has not been getting construction bids lately it's not because the government isn't spending tons of cash.



Yes I CAN refute the engineers who claim the deficiencies of the I-35W bridge were found out and repaired quickly and adequately. You must have missed the post earlier about a lot of my family being engineers and some are inspecting that very same bridge in question right now ... as a matter of fact I just got off the phone with a cousin when I posted that posting and he said that NO previous repairs are evident on the bridge or in the rubble, <span class="ev_code_RED">(Note: I did not say no repairs had been made, only that no repairs were EVIDENT.)</span>, and that Mark's assertion that the most likely cause will be determined to be metal fatigue is correct at this point.

I don't konw your cousin. I have many years of construction from high steel bridges to nuclear reactor facilities, to roads and lots of other projects. As for your cousin's statement that no previous repairs are "evident" in the rubble that is not surprising. A well done repair leaves little evidence and it could easily be hidden in that rubble pile. I'm sure that the MN Transportation Dept. would not have claimed to have repaired the bridge without a solid paper trail. All of their claims and records will be scrutinized in detail. You can call Mr. Dugan a liar if you like, but his paper trail will speak for itself. The facts are that there has been an ongoing practice of regular repairs and maintenance, and more was ongoing at the time of the colapse.


And case in point: I KNOW the I-35W bridge and its engineering intimately, its identical sister bridge built at the same time (and I mean identical - same plans, same specifications, the whole nine yards), is over the Catawba River on Highway 273 not more than 10 miles from my home. It handles 250,000 cars a day and has had regular inspections and repairs (such as possible given the lack of means over the last 27 years), and is in no danger of collapsing at the moment.

That's what they said about I-35W two weeks ago. Until we learn what actually caused the final crash I would be cautious on that identical bridge. Heck, I'm more cautious on bridges I built or rebuilt, perhaps because I know them too well.



Your continued attempts at obfuscation are boring and insensitive to the tragedy that befell families who lost loved ones due to the bridge collapsing, as well as attempting to perpetuate the systemic neglect and denial as it is in place now.

Your continued attempts at denial, obfuscation, and political blaming have clearly been demonstrated to be naught but political agendas, blaming conservatives for any problem. I grow weary of repeating the obvious.

Blessings
Bob

[Sanslines]

Two, MJ, and an entire family of engineers and construction industry executives as well as petroleum industry executives and project managers, who BUILD and have BUILT such as the I-35W Bridge (and much larger projects) here and world wide, and I speak with them on a daily basis.

Nacktman,

You definitely are absolutely and unequivocable NO engnineer. You may have some people fooled with your lies, but you don't have others. You would have to be over 200 years old to have all of your alleged degrees and experience that you have 'claimed' over the past year. The problem with your continuous lies is that you destroy your credibility and you certainly have ZERO credibility on this forum.

I did, however, do you a big favor and contacted a friend of mine in the North Carolina Department of Human Services, Mental Health Division. After reading a number of your posts, she stated that you are in desperate need of a good psycho analyst. The state of North Carolina can and will help you. Mental illness is a very serious problem - a problem that North Carolina does take very seriously. You most certainly and desperately need help as there definitely is a very serious problem if you continue to come on line and self create a world with lies, fabrications, delusions, and other assorted fantasies.

Please do us all a big favor, get that special help now, and hopefully you will be able to again join the rest of us in the real world shortly. Good luck!

[Sanslines]

Yes, the engineering was undoubtedly faulty when the 1-35W bridge was built - but that wasn't official policy.

Correction, we can NOT say that the engineering was faulty at this point. A truss structure, such as used in this particular bridge, is a very classic design that is widely used and has been studied from an engineering perspective ad infinitum over the years.

At this point, skilled experts are hypothesizing that the failure is dues to excessive vibration fatigue due to overuse of this bridge. According to the basic tenant of the scientific method, a hypothesis or theory is established. This theory then undergoes a process of factual information gathering including observations, test data, computer and analytical analysis, and a peer review by a team of experts before it is accepted as fact.
This process is occuring now and will continue to occur until a viable solution is reached.

To say that the bridge was faulty when it was built implies that those who built the bridge cleary anticipated the enormous increase in use that a bridge such as this would experience up to 40 years later. As I have stated previously, in the old days when bridges such as the Brooklyn Bridge were built, the construction methods used incorporated enormous safety factors that would tolerate an unanticipated enormous increase in wear and tear on the bridge structure. With the advent of computer technology and the associated computer analysis software and other engineering design tools, engineers were much better able to refine their designs with the result that the safety factor decreased substantially.

Engineers always design to a set of engineering design criteria. As far as this bridge is concerned, part of that criteria includes the anticipated vehicle weight and volume data to determine life cycle wear and tear. A bridge is then designed according to this data and other assumptions.

It may very well turn out that engineers need to substantially increase safety factors in anticipation of as yet unknown enormous future increases in vehicular traffic and weight. Only time will tell. To say, however, that the engineering was faulty implies that the engineers should have somehow know how much vehicular wear and tear a bridge will see in 40 years. Engineers do not have crystal balls and their designs are based upon the best and most accurate information that they have at the time.

[usmc1]

Sanslines wrote:
I did, however, do you a big favor and contacted a friend of mine in the North Carolina Department of Human Services, Mental Health Division. After reading a number of your posts, she stated that you are in desperate need of a good psycho analyst.

When facts fail, try personal attack.

The facts are very simple. Innocent people died as the the result of a political ideology resulting in fiscal policies causing the neglect and dangerous disrepair of infrastructure.

That political ideology is conservatism, and the fiscal policy is what has become to be called Reaganomics.

Yesterday I posted probative evidence of that policy at work in Minn, and reported the glee and boasting from the right-wing on that state's governor's veto of funding bills.

Ironically, that press release was issued just days before the bridge collapsed.

The right wingers here are ignoring that. One suspects they can't deal with the facts because those facts reaffirm what I have been writing here; anyone who supports or espouses those conservatives policies are accountable for the deaths from the bridge collapse, and the death of the little boy who died as a lack of proper, affordable dental care, and all the other untold deaths resulting from failure to adequately fund health, education, welfare, and infrastructure and supporting services.

Very simple. And it is sure as hell not about erstwhile friends diagnosing from internet postings.

<span class="ev_code_red">Sanslines, if you're so concerned about mental health, you need to be reminded that during your hiatus your fellow-traveler in this thread called for the "dead or alive" bounty on economic immigrants to this country. Run that by your NC mental health "friend" and see how comfortable you are with he whom you attract to your side.</span>

[Sanslines]

There does not seem to be any evidence of any policy of neglect outside of the partisan political minds of a few leftists. Quite the opposite appears to be true. There has been a long term and ongoing policy and practice of identifying whatever defects they could find and fixing them. They even took the additional step of hiring research engineering from a University to analyse and project future structural improvemetns to head off possiblefuture problems before they happened. Mark and you appear to be way out in left field with your assertions of such a policy of neglect.

All of this follows and makes sense and follows from the official statement from MSN:

"..........There’s no evidence to suggest that the Mississippi River disaster was a direct result of federal underspending........"

[nacktman]

Some minds are like concrete, all mixed up and permanently set!

The very ones spewing partisan political rhetoric on this thread and attempting to obfuscate are the very ones accusing others of political posturing and obfuscating - but are too blinded to see it.

Though as always reality eludes their grasp, it does not matter what the subject is about. Their continued trolling is irksome to those trying to have a legitimate discussion but not surprising.

It however is highly offensive and downright mean-spirited to the families of those who suffered personal loss due to the bridge collapse.

So to the obfuscators take some advice: Tirez avec les deux mains et sursant votre coq jusqu'A ce que vous s'evanouir. Vous necessite le.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines, if you're so concerned about mental health,......


Is there an echo in here? Thought I clearly addressed your buddy but you obviously have to bud into this too. Perhaps this hit a nerve with you. Well, don't worry, there is help for you in Texas too! Please get the help that you need for your out of control emotional rants and rages. Good luck to you too and I sincerely hope that the treatments work for you.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sanslines, if you're so concerned about mental health,......


Is there an echo in here? Thought I clearly addressed your buddy but you obviously have to bud into this too. Perhaps this hit a nerve with you. Well, don't worry, there is help for you in Texas too! Please get the help that you need for your out of control emotional rants and rages. Good luck to you too and I sincerely hope that the treatments work for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When facts fail, try personal attack.

Conservative underfunding of important and vital services and projects is not limited to Federal spending. In Minn, for example;

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) issued 20 full or partial vetoes of tax hikes and spending increases in May, giving taxpayers reason to smile. …

May 1, Pawlenty, in a move that took everyone by surprise, vetoed an entire $334 million “emergency” capital investment bill. Pawlenty said in his veto message the bill authorized “more than four times more spending on projects than I requested and is simply too large.”

Two weeks later Pawlenty announced another important veto, this one to block a transportation bill containing more than $5 billion in tax and fee increases…

[Sanslines]

When facts fail, try personal attack.

Yes, you guys are such experts on personal attacks and then blame others for your own personal shortcomings. If you are capable of thinking cleary and can put the hysterics and emotional tantrums aside for a minute, you will understand that your buddy has some rather serious problems and does need help. Any rational person can understand that mental health issues are to be taken very seriously and are NOT personal attacks. If you want to associate yourself with mental illness, hide it, or cover up for it, then you too have a serious problem. Mental illness is to be treated and conquered. No one should associate with it, ignore it, make excuses for it, or encourage it as you are clearly doing. If only you could think and act clearly and rational you would see this. If only.........

[Sanslines]

Tirez avec les deux mains et sursant votre coq jusqu'A ce que vous s'evanouir. Vous necessite le.


What's this, a degree or degrees in French now? Degrees on demand I see. Will the delusions never stop! BTW, its lousy French, better seek an expert in French next time.

I have the North Carolina Department of Human Services, Mental Health Divison phone number for you: Office of Citizen Services
1-919-855-4401

Please phone and make an appointment today!

[Sanslines]

anyone who supports or espouses those conservatives policies are accountable for the deaths from the bridge collapse, and the death of the little boy who died as a lack of proper, affordable dental care, and all the other untold deaths resulting from failure to adequately fund health, education, welfare, and infrastructure and supporting services.

No one wants innocent people to die so please do us all a favor and stop using this trajedy to further your own political purposes. It is a cheap attempt that many can clearly see right through. Jeez, how low will you go to use the deaths of innocent people to advance your causes. How utterly dispicable. Shame on you!

[nacktman]

No engineer, huh, I guess that P.E. license hanging on the on the wall and all those classes I took and Board Tests I passed were for nothing then. Geez, I'm glad that's cleared up. So, I guess I can forgo carrying that liability insurance for the unlikelihood any designs or construction I had a part in failed due to those designs or construction, good that stuff is expensive. Besides any Archeologist is an engineer as well (some of us actually are certified and licensed).

As to mental health issues ... having just retired from that very system you cite as one of its directors and still a licensed and working Psychologist, I most likely know your 'friend' and a clerk in the file room is not a mental health worker they are a file clerk.

As ever when reason and facts are in opposition to their preconceived notions and ideology they resort to personal attacks and accusing others of their actions claiming innocence all the while crying they are the victims of those actions, so tis par for the course for the apologists and obfuscators. Are we surprised?!

We are however beginning to feel the anger rise at their utterly callous disregard for the loss suffered by those personally impacted by the tragedy of the bridge collapse.

Oops, almost forgot the obfuscating post count - they're slipping today only two or three in a row after a high of four in a row yesterday.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:
Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) issued 20 full or partial vetoes of tax hikes and spending increases in May, giving taxpayers reason to smile. …

May 1, Pawlenty, in a move that took everyone by surprise, vetoed an entire $334 million “emergency” capital investment bill. Pawlenty said in his veto message the bill authorized “more than four times more spending on projects than I requested and is simply too large.”

Two weeks later Pawlenty announced another important veto, this one to block a transportation bill containing more than $5 billion in tax and fee increases…


When logic fails, toss out some irrelevant obfusscation and liberal twaddle.

The history of maintenance and repair for this bridge clearly shows that the policy and practice was to be aggressive in maintenance and upgrades even to anticipate possible future problems. Partisan disagreement between the legislature and the Governor over the most effective ways to run government is irrelevant to a discussion of the factual history and ongoing policy and practice of maintenance on this bridge.

You can save your irrelevant political twaddle for your leftist nomind buddies.

Blessings
Bob

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
To say that the bridge was faulty when it was built implies that those who built the bridge cleary anticipated the enormous increase in use that a bridge such as this would experience up to 40 years later. As I have stated previously, in the old days when bridges such as the Brooklyn Bridge were built, the construction methods used incorporated enormous safety factors that would tolerate an unanticipated enormous increase in wear and tear on the bridge structure. With the advent of computer technology and the associated computer analysis software and other engineering design tools, engineers were much better able to refine their designs with the result that the safety factor decreased substantially.

I think I said that it turned out not to have been robust enough to survive future unanticipated conditions, a problem that some might think of as an the failure of an engineering and fiscal practice of designing only the minimum needed for today's conditions. It was obviously sufficient for the day it was built.

I'm no longer sure that I really trust some of the design calculations and software currently in use by engineers. When my son was taking his ME degree a couple of years ago he used the software to evaluate the differential gears on his Toyota. All of the best engineering calculations and theory available clearly "proved" that the Toyota differential could not possibly survive and function under the everyday stress of doing its function. He questioned his results and they were reviewed by his professor with the same conclusion. Meanwhile the gears in the Toyota had been ignoring its calculated designed inadequacy for over a quarter million miles.

Conclusions:

1) There seems to be a lot of safety factor built into standard engineering design theory and reflected in calculation software.

2) Real life designers at Toyota use experience rather than generally accepted theory and do what works.

3) Engineering is still an art rather than a completely understood science. There is a lot that isn't known about how robust a part or a bridge actually needs to be. Experience is still the best teacher.

4) when a design fails unexpectedly it is an opportunity to find out why it failed and give all engineers a lesson in what works and what doesn't. It is important to do careful analysis of the I-35 bridge failure and find out exactly what failed and what didn't.

Knee jerk blaming of conservatives or other poltiical agendas solves nothing.

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by usmc1:
Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) issued 20 full or partial vetoes of tax hikes and spending increases in May, giving taxpayers reason to smile. …

May 1, Pawlenty, in a move that took everyone by surprise, vetoed an entire $334 million “emergency” capital investment bill. Pawlenty said in his veto message the bill authorized “more than four times more spending on projects than I requested and is simply too large.”

Two weeks later Pawlenty announced another important veto, this one to block a transportation bill containing more than $5 billion in tax and fee increases…


When logic fails, toss out some irrelevant obfusscation and liberal twaddle.

Nope, doesn't work. You asked for facts related to conservatism choking off funds and now you've got them in a very specific way. Name-calling and demonizing doesn't work. The facts are there.

The history of maintenance and repair for this bridge clearly shows that the policy and practice was to be aggressive in maintenance and upgrades even to anticipate possible future problems.

Oh? And all that aggressive maintenance and repair accomplished what. Whistling through the graveyard doesn't work either.

And today's news utterly refutes your baseless assertion:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/08/bridge.investigation/index.html

MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (CNN) -- State engineers recommended in 2000 that the Interstate 35W bridge that collapsed last week be replaced or redecked, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported Wednesday. That 2000 recommendation followed reports beginning four years earlier that raised concerns about the bridge, Star Tribune reporter Pat Doyle said Wednesday on CNN's "American Morning."
Engineers were so concerned, "They ended some reports with exclamation points," Doyle said.


Partisan disagreement between the legislature and the Governor over the most effective ways to run government is irrelevant to a discussion of the factual history and ongoing policy and practice of maintenance on this bridge.

No, it is not irrelevant, it is very specifically to the point. The CONSERVATIVE Republican governor and lick-spittle lackies in the legislature, at the behest of millionaires, billionaires and corporations now have blood on their hands through veto and underfunding

You can save your irrelevant political twaddle for your leftist nomind buddies.

No, not buying this crap either. You and your ilk are accountable for those deaths and all the other untold deaths of innocents resulting from Reaganomics and fiscal conservatism's putting tax breaks for the wealthy few above funding helath, education and well being of human beings---All your blatheriations, blustering and huffing and puffing to the contrary.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sanslines]

Conclusions:

1) There seems to be a lot of safety factor built into standard engineering design theory and reflected in calculation software.

2) Real life designers at Toyota use experience rather than generally accepted theory and do what works.

3) Engineering is still an art rather than a completely understood science. There is a lot that isn't known about how robust a part or a bridge actually needs to be. Experience is still the best teacher.

4) when a design fails unexpectedly it is an opportunity to find out why it failed and give all engineers a lesson in what works and what doesn't. It is important to do careful analysis of the I-35 bridge failure and find out exactly what failed and what didn't.

Knee jerk blaming of conservatives or other poltiical agendas solves nothing.

I can generally agree with this but with a few additional comments and observations based upon my experiences.

1) There are safety factors built into everything. However, the engineer may not always know what an appropriate safety factor is. In the case of a bridge, it is very difficult to anticipate how much use a bridge will see over it's lifetime. We have an exponentially increasing population (our population will increase by 25 percent from now to 2030) and this takes us into a new design realm of designing and constructing bridges for this enormous use.

2) Experience is always very valuable but in so many cases today experience is a rarity. Many companies want to get rid of the older workers for PERCEIVED increased costs of salary and benefits such as health care and replace them with younger workers with little or no experience. This is another MAJOR problem in our society today.

3) True, engineering is still very much an art that is very dynamic as technology changes.

4) Very true and an absolute necessity. The general public may not know or care about the specific details of bridge design and construction. All that they need to know are that there are trusted experts who can design, construct, inspect, and maintain bridges and other infrastructure which does not fail. They want infrastructure that does not fail and want their tax dollars to accomplish this without playing the political blame game and throwing enormous money at incompetence. The public will support taxes that are appropriately used for their intended purposes and are entitled to checks and balances that ensure this. They are not entitled to writing a blank tax check because some hysterical and neurotic media or individuals demand that they should.

[Sanslines]

No engineer, huh, I guess that P.E. license hanging on the on the wall and all those classes I took and Board Tests I passed were for nothing then......

Will the lies, delusions, and fabrications ever cease! Please phone the number listed above to make an appointment to see a trained specialist as soon as possible. Thank you for your cooperation and good luck.

[walter05]

Sanslines;

On August 06, 2007 01:51 PM August 06, 2007 10:51 AM, you accused Naturist Mark of: “Rather then post hysterical and emotionally driven hogwash, I refer to (Engineering) Design News concerning the application of a disciplined and rational engineering approach to identifying the specific problems and resolving them.”

On August 06, 2007 08:52 PM August 06, 2007 05:52 PM, you posted: “C'mon Mark, you continue to attempt to play upon people's ignorance here.”

On August 07, 2007 07:00 PM August 07, 2007 04:00 PM, you posted: “Yes, let's cut out the hysterics and work with the facts.”

It is true you were not referring to people obfuscating. However, your tone was insulting and degrading. Since, you have ranted about Nacktman needing mental treatment. Referring to your accusations as obfuscating was kind, although admittedly inaccurate. We all need to be able to civilly argue.

USMC1;

My preferred status was for a short time.

Nacktman;

As I have stated before, I have a pet peeve. Rush Limbaugh is the darling of the conservatives who claims to represent conservative family values. I am a long time liberal Democrat who has been married for fifteen years and am raising six wonderful children. Yet Rush Limbaugh, twice divorced, and recently caught bringing too much viagra back from the Bahamas claims he is for family values and I am not.

When I listen to Rush Limbaugh, he rants about liberals. I am a liberal who is proud to be an American, practices real family values, and supports the wise use of government to improve lives of people.

Back in the seventies, we understood what Liberals and Conservatives stood for. Rush Limbaugh and his imitators have redefined both. Just as I reject his definition of liberalism, I reject his definition of conservatism. We had reasoned debates and usually came to a concensus that took into account the valid points made by both sides. I will not allow Rush Limbaugh's definitions of liberalism or conservatism prevent me from continuing to have that civil debate.

In an earlier post you agreed to accept the title "selfishness" for description instead of conservatism, and I agree with that.

It is not that you and I agree on how we got here. We do disagree on some details. However we are able to agree on attempting to focus attention on the need to make sure that maintenance is adequately funded.

Sanslines, you, nor me is opposed to the engineers studying and finding out the proximate cause of the bridge collapse. We all agree this is important and must proceed. In the meantime, we also all agree that our state and federal governments must make it a priority to make sure that any other bridges are inspected and maintained to be safe.

[MoonShadow]

This thread certainly has taken a different direction with heated posts. Walter, I find that the ones you are supporting are guilty too of name calling and talking about other posters obsfucating and name calling.

The thread was quite interesting with different postings on what will or will not be the cause and effect and then the posts turned ugly.

This posting floored me: "You and your ilk are accountable for those deaths and all the other untold deaths of innocents..." where a poster actually says other posters here are accountable for the bridge deaths!

Think it might be a good idea if everyone of late not post on this thread for a while until they calm down.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by MoonShadow:
This thread certainly has taken a different direction with heated posts. Walter, I find that the ones you are supporting are guilty too of name calling and talking about other posters obsfucating and name calling.

The thread was quite interesting with different postings on what will or will not be the cause and effect and then the posts turned ugly.

This posting floored me: "You and your ilk are accountable for those deaths and all the other untold deaths of innocents..." where a poster actually says other posters here are accountable for the bridge deaths!

Think it might be a good idea if everyone of late not post on this thread for a while until they calm down.

Well pick yourself up off the floor and dust yourself off. Because that is how it is!

There are consequences to votes resulting in specific policy decisions. In this case those who voted for, supported and espoused the ideologies of those "Conservatives" who choked off funding for health, education, welfare and the common good (including infrastructure repair, upkeep and/or replacement) created the fiscal reality in this country where people die as the result of those actions.

There is an easily discernible and well-documented historic path to this dreadful event.

So, hell yes they are accountable. And, you and anyone else who cares to make like Queen Gruoch willing the spot away are out of luck!

<span class="ev_code_blue">I am adding this edited comment, since Sanslines chose to misconstrue what i wrote, and since my typo (I typed Grouch instead of Gruoch) did leave my remark vulnerable for that sort of behavior.

Queen Gruoch was the person upon whom Lady MacBeth was drawn. It was she who is famous for the line, "Out. Out. Damned spot", in reference to her bloodstained hand. My point was that there are those who do have bloodstained hands and no lamentations, verbal gymnastics or other rhetorical shenanigans will blot away the blood.

If someone chooses to identify with that lot, so be it. If Moonbeam chooses to take the reference as being directed to her, it is only if she is of that ilk to which I refer. Otherwise I meant her no distress other than to disagree with her that my remarks are over the top, ugly or emotional in any way.

Sometimes the truth is harsh and very offensive. More people should try it, we'd be in better shape.</span>

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by MoonShadow:
This posting floored me: "You and your ilk are accountable for those deaths and all the other untold deaths of innocents..." where a poster actually says other posters here are accountable for the bridge deaths!

Think it might be a good idea if everyone of late not post on this thread for a while until they calm down.

Yes, that is pretty insulting. It seems that according to at least one correspondent here, the bridge in Minnisota collapsed because of me and perhaps Sanslines and a few others who disagree with the left wingnut position. It's just as I pointed out a couple of days ago. There is no point in trying to debate with a leftist or a pig. It only makes them angry and wastes your time.

Oink!...Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... OINK OINK....Blame Bush... Oink....Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Oink Oink...Blame Conservatives...

Blesings
Bob

[walter05]

MoonShadow;

It is not that I support Nacktman, Mark, and USMC1. We disagree on many fine points. However, we are able to focus on what we agree on for this topic. I believe that Sanslines and I have attempted to do the same also. Therefore, I don't totally agree or disagree with anyone above.

The quote that you site is reprehensible. I disagree with whoever made it.

I have attempted to show that Sanslines, Naturist Mark, Nacktman, USMC1, and I all agree on the basic points. We need to allow the engineering studies to find the proximate cause of the failure to avoid a similar failure elsewhere. We also agree that our state and federal governments should take immediate steps to make sure that all known steps to inspect and maintain our bridges are taken. There is no need for any of us to engage in uncivil language.

We disagree as to the extent that neglect of placing emphasis on maintenance by state and federal governments may have made this tragedy more likely and may be contributing to similar failures in the future.

I have disagreed with Nacktman, USMC1, and Naturist Mark that Conservatives, Republicans, Reagan, and Bush are the primary causes.

I don't argue with people being civil when they have a long history of not being so. I also don't argue with people who site reasons that they are experts on everything. I also don't argue with people who take a position and then make the facts fit their positions. I accept that as their personality.

That being said, USMC1 has made some good points on this topic. He has sited some open sources that can be validated. Some of his posts have been very emotional, but I am not dismissing any validity to his posts.

Sanslines has a long history of being civil. Therefore, it is possible to point out to Sanslines when I think he has gone too far. In this case I think Sanslines has. I expect better from Sanslines.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobx23456:
The history of maintenance and repair for this bridge clearly shows that the policy and practice was to be aggressive in maintenance and upgrades even to anticipate possible future problems.

Oh? And all that aggressive maintenance and repair accomplished what. Whistling through the graveyard doesn't work either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, a history of continual and ongoing maintenance and repair, detailed inspections and consulting University engineering analysis did not prevent the bridge from colapsing, yet you also blame the colapse on a recent lack of funding for maintenance and repair. There is some real serious problems with the concept of logical thought there.


And today's news utterly refutes your baseless assertion:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/08/bridge.investigation/index.html

MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (CNN) -- State engineers recommended in 2000 that the Interstate 35W bridge that collapsed last week be replaced or redecked, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported Wednesday. That 2000 recommendation followed reports beginning four years earlier that raised concerns about the bridge, Star Tribune reporter Pat Doyle said Wednesday on CNN's "American Morning."
Engineers were so concerned, "They ended some reports with exclamation points," Doyle said.
[/b]


More irrelevant obfuscation doesn't change the cause of the bridge collapse. The scheduled replacement of this bridge has been common knowledge for several days, it's not "news."

The current bridge had an ongoing policy and practice of inspection, analysis, repair and maintenance, all of which facts have been denied by those who blame the colapse on a Republican Governor's budget balancing.

Blessings
Bob

[Sanslines]

Walter,

I do think that you need to go back and open your eyes this time to see who really is insulting and degrading. It is obvious that Nacktman and the others are in your camp and so it is natural for you to try and defend their actions, and be kind and gentle to them -which you very much are. However, you obviously overlook the insults of your comrades and specifically call me out which is so completely biased.
You initially wrongly accused me of accusing others of obfuscating and now you are trying to mitigate that wrongful accusation by leveling other accusations against me. This is wrong. You don't excuse one wrongful accusation by completely ignoring this fact and trying to mitigate it by attempting new accusations.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to start being unbiased and fair to all. You mention that we all need to be civil and this civility needs to extend to all - including your comrades that you so openly support and so completely ignore their abuse and insults towards myself and others in this thread. It is wrong to remain silent when such abuses occur and it is also wrong to overlook outrageous insults, abuses, and atrocities and nit pick on others.

You also do not know the very long history among the four or five of us that has occured through many threads.

[Sanslines]

MoonShadow;

It is not that I support Nacktman, Mark, and USMC1. We disagree on many fine points. However, we are able to focus on what we agree on for this topic. I believe that Sanslines and I have attempted to do the same also. Therefore, I don't totally agree or disagree with anyone above.

The quote that you site is reprehensible. I disagree with whoever made it.

You certainly do not call them out on their insults but you certainly nit pick the rest of us. This is patently unfair and completely biased. Others see it and so should you.

[Sanslines]

Sanslines has a long history of being civil. Therefore, it is possible to point out to Sanslines when I think he has gone too far. In this case I think Sanslines has. I expect better from Sanslines.

Sanslines has a long history with the other three individuals that may give him reasons to do what he needs to do at times. You do not know this history, for if you did, you would think that I have not gone far enough.

[Sanslines]

Since, you have ranted about Nacktman needing mental treatment.

I explained my situation very well concerning his need for treatment. He does need treatment very badly and urgently. I have seen far too many people in life either ignore, make excuses for, use, or encourage those who are in need of mental treatment. Mental health is NO joke and I certainly was not joing about it. I made very clear in one of my postings above that this is NOT a personal attack but you chose to see it differently.

[usmc1]

No! you may not divert this thread with personal attack and other diversionary tactics.

It is not about personalities. It is about the unnecessary confirmed deaths of five innocent people and the missing eight people who are suspected to be dead.

It is not about arcane facts of engineering.

It is about the well subtantiated, fact supported history of infrastructure neglect in this country in the name of Reaganomics, ie fiscal conservatism.

There are consequences to such. One of those consequences is the collapsed bridge which was known to be dangerous and which was not dealt with due to fiscal conservatism.

Those facts are very simple and very clear. What is also equally simple and clear is that those who support, and espouse this derelict political and economic model share accountability for those deaths.

There is no wiggle room. None of your huffing and puffing, name-calling, villifcations, and ponderously inane postings will distract from those truths.

"Out! Out! damned spot" did not work for Queen Gruoch and there is no detergent available to remove the blood stains from the hands of conservatives who vote for and support such fiscal policies.

Rant and prance as you will, that fact remains!

[Sanslines]

"Out! Out! damned spot" did not work for Queen Gruoch and there is no detergent available to remove the blood stains from the hands of conservatives who vote for and support such fiscal policies.

Why are you insulting and abusing Moonshadow by calling her "Queen Grouch"? Have you no sense of decency left? You are such a drama queen.

[Sanslines]

I don't argue with people being civil when they have a long history of not being so. I also don't argue with people who site reasons that they are experts on everything. I also don't argue with people who take a position and then make the facts fit their positions. I accept that as their personality.

I don't agree when a person ignores abusive and uncivil behavior and instead engages in polite conversation with those who openly and continuously abuse others. This is like saying that a person won't disagree, object, or say anything to a husband who openly berates, belittles, and abuses his wife and instead ignore all of this and acts as if nothing has even happened.

Perhaps why you are specifically calling me out is that you feel that there is no hope or standards for the other three who have continuously abused others and yet you hold me to a much higher standard based upon demonstrated civility. Thanks for the backhanded compliment!

[Sanslines]

No! you may not divert this thread with personal attack and other diversionary tactics.

Keep up your out-of-control, testosterone induced, and hysterically enraged rants and abusive sermons and this thread will be closed. You will have no one else to blame but yourself.

Stop accusing those in this forum who disagree with you of complicity and having blood on their hands as accomplices to this trajedy! This is an outrageous allegation!!!

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Out! Out! damned spot" did not work for Queen Gruoch and there is no detergent available to remove the blood stains from the hands of conservatives who vote for and support such fiscal policies.

Why are you insulting and abusing Moonshadow by calling her "Queen Grouch"? Have you no sense of decency left? You are such a drama queen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you, as is your usual M.O. distort what I wrote and respond to that instead of what was actually written.

Here's what I wrote in response to Moonshadow who felt my post was "ugly", "And, you and anyone else who cares to make like Queen Gruoch willing the spot away are out of luck!"...which, pretty much leaves the choice up to her and anyone else as to how they might act.

I see there was a typo which might have thrown you off. The reference is not to Queen Grouch, but rather to Queen Gruoch, who was the Scottish Queen upon whom Lady MacBeth was modeled. You know, of "Out, Out Damned spot", fame.

But, again, it's not about me. It is about a political ideology and fiscal policy leading to the deaths of many, many innocents in this country.

Conservatives pursue those polcies, and boast and chortle when they are enacted, but are running like rats from a terrier when the consequences come calling.

And I wouldn't suspect you'd like having it called to your attention. Too bad!

Now excuse me, I really must go study my lines.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:
It is not about personalities. It is about the unnecessary confirmed deaths of five innocent people and the missing eight people who are suspected to be dead.

An emotional appeal is not a rational argument. You do seem to have some real serious problems with the concept of logical thought. Nobody favors dead people. Everyone tries to prevent it. Tossing in the death count is an emotional appeal without logical basis in support of your other arguments.


It is not about arcane facts of engineering.

Whoop de do. So let's all circle round and cry big salty tears for the dead. Boo Hoo! Boo Hoo! Boo Hoo! There, now do you feel better?

Nobody wants anyone dead. Ignoring the engineering causes and diverting the discussion to partisan politics only exacerbates the probability that more people will die, and is very disrespectful of those who died. Turning their deaths into a partisan political "blame conservatives" agenda is arrogant, deceitful, and shamelessly insensitive.


It is about the well subtantiated, fact supported history of infrastructure neglect in this country in the name of Reaganomics, ie fiscal conservatism.

That red herring is another sidetrack. There has been no cause and effect showing of your red herring causing the bridge collapse. You do seem to have some real serious problems with the concept of logical thought.


There are consequences to such. One of those consequences is the collapsed bridge which was known to be dangerous and which was not dealt with due to fiscal conservatism.

There has been no cause and effect showing of your red herring causing the bridge collapse. The facts show that the bridge had ongoing and continual inspection and maintenance and had never been subjected to a lack of maintenance. Your ongoing problems with logical cause and effect reasoning are plainly demonstrated again.


Those facts are very simple and very clear. What is also equally simple and clear is that those who support, and espouse this derelict political and economic model share accountability for those deaths.

Oink!...Blame Bush! .... Blame conservatives... OINK OINK....Blame Bush... Oink....Blame Conservatives... Blame Bush... Oink Oink...Blame Conservatives...

Blessings

Bob

[walter05]

Sanslines;

I said, "I have disagreed with Nacktman, USMC1, and Naturist Mark that Conservatives, Republicans, Reagan, and Bush are the primary causes.

I don't argue with people being civil when they have a long history of not being so. I also don't argue with people who site reasons that they are experts on everything. I also don't argue with people who take a position and then make the facts fit their positions. I accept that as their personality."

That does not mean that I agree with Nacktman and USMC1 or believe that their posts are polite and appropriate. I believe I will never be able to convince them to maintain a level of civility that I prefer.

I also said, "Sanslines has a long history of being civil. Therefore, it is possible to point out to Sanslines when I think he has gone too far. In this case I think Sanslines has. I expect better from Sanslines."

When I was a young boy, I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right. No one else's rantings excuse yours.

You complain that Nacktman is not an expert on everything. It is possible that he has a sense of humor that is different from yours. He could also possibly be rude. Being rude with an odd sense of humor does not constitute a mental illness. I find it hard to believe that a proper diagnosis of a mental disorder can be diagnosed from these forums.

You have also threatened to close this thread. You are not the original poster of the thread and you are not a moderator. This threat seems to be questionable. Making grandiose threats could also be interpreted as a sign of mental illness.

I agree that people who need help should get it. I am certain that non-professionals making unqualified diagnoses via the internet will only make it harder for really ill people to seek and get the help they need.

I agree with you and the others on the main points. I object to the personal attacks from everyone.

In my original post on this topic, on August 06, 2007 12:47 PM, I addressed the other side. I did not address any engineering topics. I believed, and still do, that blaming particular politicians or parties is wrong and counter productive.

On August 06, 2007 02:37 PM, you responded to my post with an engineering explanation. It had nothing to do with anything that I said.
August 06, 2007 04:40 PM, you posted: "My approach is beyond politics. " You then went on to say that you wanted others aware of something by responding to my unrelated post.

On August 07, 2007 3:37 P.M. you said, "however I perhaps could have clarified this much better". I accepted that explanation.

When Nacktman responded to my post and I thought he was wrong, I responded to correct the record. We both used some humor in responding to each other.

Those who I hope will listen will hear me state those concerns that they be civl. Those that I believe will not listen will not hear them. You are usually very civil. I may not expect that of everyone, but I do of you because you are usually better.

[nimrod]

I do not feel like being a referee for this thread, but I am sitting back as a third party reading all this and thinking you all have gone insane. All right not all, but some are a little too emotionally involved.

Sanslines, you said on Aug. 8, 2007 08:00 am;
2) Experience is always very valuable but in so many cases today experience is a rarity. Many companies want to get rid of the older workers for PERCEIVED increased costs of salary and benefits such as health care and replace them with younger workers with little or no experience. This is another MAJOR problem in our society today.

Looking at this from the outside, the above statement can be seen as a contradiction of every thing else you have said about "waiting for the official report". As I see it, your statement supports the opposing arguement. It shows that the selfishness is in private contractors as well as government officials.

[Sanslines]

You have also threatened to close this thread. You are not the original poster of the thread and you are not a moderator. This threat seems to be questionable. Making grandiose threats could also be interpreted as a sign of mental illness.

Walter,

You are again confused and resorting to false statements.

I clearly said this to USMC: "Keep up your out-of-control, testosterone induced, and hysterically enraged rants and abusive sermons and this thread will be closed. You will have no one else to blame but yourself."

I cleary said THIS THREAD WILL BE CLOSED. I did not say who will close it. I obviously am not a moderator and can not close threads. Anyone can can understand this so you again are making misinterpretations and false accusations. Why would anyone even think that anyone other then a moderator can close threads. You know better then this so please stop misinterpreting what I have said. Stop extrapolating from your false allegations by making other demeaning comments.

You are not the judge of when I have gone too far anymore then I am the judge of when you have gone too far.

The best way to stop this nit piking pissing contest and false and misleading accusations on your part is for me to stop replying to your posts. It is pointless as you continue to pick and chose minor details that you wish to dwell upon and ignore the real problems here. You continue to misinterpret and make false statements against me with no apologies for ever doing so. I expect better from you. Enuf said!

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by nimrod:
I do not feel like being a referee for this thread, but I am sitting back as a third party reading all this and thinking you all have gone insane. All right not all, but some are a little too emotionally involved.

Sanslines, you said on Aug. 8, 2007 08:00 am;
2) Experience is always very valuable but in so many cases today experience is a rarity. Many companies want to get rid of the older workers for PERCEIVED increased costs of salary and benefits such as health care and replace them with younger workers with little or no experience. This is another MAJOR problem in our society today.

Looking at this from the outside, the above statement can be seen as a contradiction of every thing else you have said about "waiting for the official report". As I see it, your statement supports the opposing arguement. It shows that the selfishness is in private contractors as well as government officials.

I am not quite sure how you are interpreting this or how this statement supports the opposing side. I most probably need to elaborate a bit more.

Bobx statement:

2) Real life designers at Toyota use experience rather than generally accepted theory and do what works.

My reply:

2) Experience is always very valuable but in so many cases today experience is a rarity. Many companies want to get rid of the older workers for PERCEIVED increased costs of salary and benefits such as health care and replace them with younger workers with little or no experience. This is another MAJOR problem in our society today.

Bobx was talking specifically about Toyota, which is a for profit, commercial company and I was responding directly to his statement about Toyota. In many commercial companies (such as Toyota) today, older workers are let go and valuable experience is subsequently lost. I did not address the bridge situation directly or connect my reply to it and this may have lead to some confusion.

It actually is a whole new and different topic to discuss the differences between a private firm which performs bridge construction, inspections, maintenance, and repairs and the state supervision of the performance of these private firms versus state workers who do not work for a 'for profit' private firm and may or may not have to suffer the effects of premature layoffs due to older age.

How would 'waiting for the official report for this bridge' have anything to do with the experience level of workers for a private firm such as Toyota?

Come to think of it, this could lead to a rather interesting discussion concerning experience versus theory. Thanks for bringing it up.

[walter05]

Sanslines;

On August 08, 2007 01:43 PM August 08, 2007 10:43 AM, you said: “I do think that you need to go back and open your eyes this time to see who really is insulting and degrading. It is obvious that Nacktman and the others are in your camp and so it is natural for you to try and defend their actions, and be kind and gentle to them -which you very much are. However, you obviously overlook the insults of your comrades and specifically call me out which is so completely biased.
You initially wrongly accused me of accusing others of obfuscating and now you are trying to mitigate that wrongful accusation by leveling other accusations against me. This is wrong. You don't excuse one wrongful accusation by completely ignoring this fact and trying to mitigate it by attempting new accusations.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to start being unbiased and fair to all. You mention that we all need to be civil and this civility needs to extend to all - including your comrades that you so openly support and so completely ignore their abuse and insults towards myself and others in this thread. It is wrong to remain silent when such abuses occur and it is also wrong to overlook outrageous insults, abuses, and atrocities and nit pick on others.

You also do not know the very long history among the four or five of us that has occurred through many threads.”

On another thread, I thought that Nacktman had been very abusive of someone else and a few other people joined him. He used the same line about the very long history. I agree that I lack that history. However, I can read the current thread and make up my mind based on the current thread.

I was accused of overlooking the insults of my comrades and being kinder and gentler to them.

In my last post, I pointed out that we are not comrades. I also was explaining why I was objecting to your post and not theirs. As I said, my supposed comrades will not change so there is no point in asking them to. That does not mean I don’t object to much of what they have said. Particularly the attacks and tone have been very rude but the way they usually contribute to other topics. That is them; I don't expect them to change. Therefore bringing it to their attention is pointless.

When I complained that Nacktman had pointed a finger at President Bush in a cartoon, he responded that was not his intent and I misinterpreted what seemed obvious. I did not respond because there was no point to it. I thought, and think that the cartoon was quite clear.

I agree that neither of us are the judges of when someone has gone too far.

You said, “It is pointless as you continue to pick and chose minor details that you wish to dwell upon and ignore the real problems here.” Those may seem like minor details to you. However, they are important if I want to illustrate a point.

I want to make this clear. I believe that the vast majority of your posts have been very civil and proper.

I believe that there are those who want to focus on the engineering questions and those are important.

I also believe that there are those who also want to focus on the political process that may have contributed to this process and that is also important. We need to focus on all contributing factors to this tragedy.

I have attempted to be open minded to the points from all sides. This includes you. However, unless I am in full agreement with you, I find myself under attack. I have never considered Nacktman and USMC1 my comrades and never defended them on this topic. However, when there have been interesting points amongst their rantings, I have read them and considered them.

I have admitted that I said obfuscating because I was trying to be more polite than blunt. I now apologize for that. In my attempt to be more polite, I was less than accurate and that did lead to a false accusation. I apologize for that.

Once again, please understand me. You have made some excellent points. You are usually well thought out and I enjoy reading your posts. I also believe that my supposed comrades have often been rude and obnoxious in their posts. However, they have often been rude and obnoxious on a lot of topics. You have usually been polite and civil. That is why I have felt pointing out what may be an objectionable post from you to potentially beneficial when I don’t feel the same about doing so for my supposed comrades.

[nacktman]

Sadly I see this thread has so thoroughly degenerated into the morass of lies and accusations those that wanted it to in order to divert attention from the topic.

Rudeness and obnoxiousness has been the Hallmark of some posters (past and present) on this thread (and on these forum), and it is NOT the ones being accused of such. The truth is a harsh mistress at times and some can not handle it. It is at such times they resort to attack and revile, obfuscation and outright lies.

Inability to distinguish between and term for a mindset and a term for a particular group, albeit a group that embraces that mindset more fully, is a clear sign of a weak position and uncertainty of purpose. An inability those who have striven so hard to divert this thread have demonstrated with such stark clarity.
*****

Walter on a note to you, I have been civil in my posts and have answered your questions completely ... you have responded to some, some you have not.
The incivility on these forums comes from one source and always has from the beginning ... the political/religious right ...and they do not like it that they are called to task for it. So they howl and bray and attack and accuse.
For a time the 'left' remained silent just to see how idiotic they would become - it went off the scale.
Then the 'left', 'center' and 'just right of center' began to speak up and call them to task and they have howled even louder and more insanely since.
Some have left, some have been sent away, but there always seems to be an endless supply of them, which is in reality not the case as they are the small minority they have always been.

You have said you are a Liberal and proud to be one, that is great. However being such does make you and usmc1 comrades as he is a Liberal as well ... it doesn't make you kissing cousins, but it does make you comrades. I believe Mark is more in the Center and maybe a Free-Thinker which sort of makes him a comrade as well ... after all true Liberalism is the embracing of "free thought and differences". As for myself, despite the protestations to the contrary from the apologists of the right, I am very much in the Center and a Free-Thinker who calls'em like they is! Idiocy is idiocy ... makes no never mind if it's right or left. It is just that now the idiocy (well 99.999999% of it anyway) is coming from the right, so I am calling them on it, along with a whole lot of others.
*****

Condolences and sympathies for the victims families are what the focus of the topic was about.
However, legitimate questioning of the fiscal policy of systemic neglect and denial that led to the failure to maintain the bridge which in turn led to its failure was met with obfuscations, lies, attacks and accusations from those of the mindset of "Selfishness", who as ever, were trying to divert attention away from their bankrupt ideology and the tragedies it has caused and is causing in this nation as well as the world.

[MoonShadow]

Nacktman, with all due respect, I do not see anything in this thread of any right-winged or religous right ideologies being posted. What I see are posters making interesting points of views until the latter posts when a few of you starting slinging mud at each other.

I do not see who has been attacking you or telling lies. Apparently, there is a lot of history between you and a couple of posters but being new I don't know what this history is. I don't see posters here with the "Selfishness" mindset you are referring to. I think you and usmc's posts about conservatives being the Selfish who have blood on their hands for this disaster a rather radical proclamation and not at all in the center or liberal.

Your latest posting baffles me in that I cannot see how any right wingers have been called to task. Rather, I see you and usmc have issues with some posters.

In looking over the posts in this thread again, I do not see any "idiocy" being posted but then to say that conservatives/the selfish have blood on their hands for this bridge disaster might fall into that category and do not understand why you and usmc can in any intelligent matter make this claim.

If you think I am of the right, you are sadly mistaken. I am more left leaning and at times can be extremely left leaning. I am not in the center by any stretch of the imagination but do try to see both sides of an argument or opinion. In doing so, I may learn or may not change my thinking but at least have exercised the thought process by opening up to new thoughts and points of view.

This statement of yours is interesting to note: "after all true Liberalism is the embracing of "free thought and differences" which is true and that is how I viewed what was occurring in this thread. Then flit hit the shan with all the insults flying.

This thread was most enjoyable to read with different views being presented. Hopefully, tempers will calm and the thread will get back to that exchange.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by MoonShadow:
Nacktman, with all due respect, I do not see anything in this thread of any right-winged or religous right ideologies being posted. What I see are posters making interesting points of views until the latter posts when a few of you starting slinging mud at each other.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Moonshadow, first off I have never said right-winged or religious ideologies were being posted . What I said was those that WERE obfuscating and attempting to divert this thread were of that persuasion.

The discussion of the systemic neglect of our nation's infrastructure was not about any particular individual or group until those howling from the right began ranting.
In fact all prior and since have pointed out that the neglect was universal, though more so during republican control of government (all the way back to the years following the War of Northern Aggression). It however was not an official systemic policy until the raygun insanity. At which point the howls began in earnest.</span>

I do not see who has been attacking you or telling lies. Apparently, there is a lot of history between you and a couple of posters but being new I don't know what this history is. I don't see posters here with the "Selfishness" mindset you are referring to. I think you and usmc's posts about conservatives being the Selfish who have blood on their hands for this disaster a rather radical proclamation and not at all in the center or liberal.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I never said they were attacking me, although a couple of posts do. The lies are in almost every post, especially when they are attempting to revile another. The history you speak of is not a history between myself and anyone else, It is the history of the forums from the beginning - any that have stood up to the right-wing are attacked and reviled and derided.

You need not look further than the posts doing so to walter05 to see them in action .. he got the first treatment, it WILL get more uncivil and rabid the more he stands up for himself and speaks out.

Just to point out I have never said the conservatives are "selfish" I was agreeing to a term for a mindset I called 'conservatives mentality' which another said he thought "Selfishness" was a better term. I have not made any reference or inference to 'conservatives' being selfish. I spoke of the mindset and pointedly stated that it was somewhat universal - a point that has been conveniently ignored because it didn't fit the agenda of some.</span>

Your latest posting baffles me in that I cannot see how any right wingers have been called to task. Rather, I see you and usmc have issues with some posters.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I was referring to the entirety of the postings on these forums not just this thread.
It is some posters have issues with usmc1 and myself not the other way around. If you look at the thread from the beginning you will see who and when "had issues" and with whom.</span>

In looking over the posts in this thread again, I do not see any "idiocy" being posted but then to say that conservatives/the selfish have blood on their hands for this bridge disaster might fall into that category and do not understand why you and usmc can in any intelligent matter make this claim.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Moonshadow, I have never claimed anyone "had blood on their hands". Point of fact I stated that no matter how much I despise the shrub he was not responsible for the collapse of the bridge. It has been the ones from the right that have made such claims when accusing others of such - as ever is their pattern. The responsibility lays squarely at the feet of the systemic policy of neglect.
The 'idiocy' is also referring to the entirety of the bankrupt ideology of the right-wing, not in this thread in particular.</span>

If you think I am of the right, you are sadly mistaken. I am more left leaning and at times can be extremely left leaning. I am not in the center by any stretch of the imagination but do try to see both sides of an argument or opinion. In doing so, I may learn or may not change my thinking but at least have exercised the thought process by opening up to new thoughts and points of view.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I didn't think of you left - right - center. I haven't seen your posts saying you were either until now. </span>

This statement of yours is interesting to note: "after all true Liberalism is the embracing of "free thought and differences" which is true and that is how I viewed what was occurring in this thread. Then flit hit the shan with all the insults flying.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">That is what Liberalism is and what was occurring on this thread until two particular posters began spewing as they do on any thread they post on ... and both are right-winged apologists</span>

This thread was most enjoyable to read with different views being presented. Hopefully, tempers will calm and the thread will get back to that exchange.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Tempers are calm from the center and left as they normally are. The hostility and anger as ever comes from the right. I have wondered many a time why they are so angry all the time. If I were you I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to 'calm down'.</span>

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Nacktman,

You definitely are absolutely and unequivocable NO engnineer. You may have some people fooled with your lies, but you don't have others. You would have to be over 200 years old to have all of your alleged degrees and experience that you have 'claimed' over the past year. The problem with your continuous lies is that you destroy your credibility and you certainly have ZERO credibility on this forum.

I was kind of thinking the same thing. There is no realistic way to verify what he claims. He still has some credibility with me, but it is slipping.

I do mainly have a problem with his dismissive attitude when someone has the audacity to disagree with him. He approaches this from the point of view that the other person must not be too bright if they do not agree with 100% of what he says.

[nacktman]

I had so hoped you would have learned something during your self imposed permanent exile from these forums. I see that was a hope in vain and that it was not so 'permanent' after all.

As to all your fretting and worrying about my accomplishments, tough, they are my accomplishments and there will be more just as there have been a whole lot more than I have stated herein already.

Case in point just the other week I was chatting with someone in Norway who by some quirk of fate has almost the same education and degrees as I, as well as similar interests, so I guess he hasn't accomplished his achievements either. He is younger than I am, which means according to you, he couldn't have done the things he has done because he is not over two hundred years old.

Face it, there are quite a few people like the two of us who have accomplished very many things and become experts at them.

As to my credibility, well it is as it is ... to some it is extremely high, others not so high. The boils down to who has accomplished something in their lives and who hasn't. Guess where the "high" credibility lays? Can you guess whether I care or not what those who haven't accomplished anything think of my credibility?

Just so you'll know I will add another accomplishment to my already extensive list this Friday when I pass the Realtor Brokers exam and receive my Brokers license.

You may continue sniping now.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Sorry for the late response to the remarks folks, but I had forgotten about them until MJ's post above prompted my memory.
Maybe now we can return to the topic?</span>

[EricNY]

It is a shame that this topic has gone south with bickering and nonsense. There is some good points here and I would hate to close it due to a few that can not control themselves.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by MJ_KC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sanslines:
Nacktman,

You definitely are absolutely and unequivocable NO engineer. You may have some people fooled with your lies, but you don't have others. You would have to be over 200 years old to have all of your alleged degrees and experience that you have 'claimed' over the past year. The problem with your continuous lies is that you destroy your credibility and you certainly have ZERO credibility on this forum.

I was kind of thinking the same thing. There is no realistic way to verify what he claims. He still has some credibility with me, but it is slipping.

I do mainly have a problem with his dismissive attitude when someone has the audacity to disagree with him. He approaches this from the point of view that the other person must not be too bright if they do not agree with 100% of what he says. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you may recall, back in the not so old days, we had a nice variety of people with different viewpoints on different topics. The debates and discussions would become heated at times, but they always remained more or less civil. Then, over the course of the past year. one after another started to leave this forum and the interesting discussions started to dry up. During the course of the past year, I have received pm's stating the reasons why and I am sure that you have observed some of the reasons.

I have been constanly accused of being some kind of right wing apologist, which could not be further from the truth. I have always insisted that all sides of an issue be heard and have always stood up against a certain group within this forum who always abuse, insult, and shout down the opposition. My objections to this thread are that it not become another Bush bashing thread where either Bush, Repubs, or Conservatives are automatically blamed for this bridge tragedy. A fair and honest individual will hold those who are found responsible accountable (if any are) regardless of which party they represent. A hateful, closed minded, and politically biased individual will use this tragic event as another opportunity to play the usual political blame games. Don't the victims of this event deserve better then that?

True Liberals are open minded individuals who will listen to all and think about issues and will not automatically shout down and abuse those that they disagree with. What we have been experiencing in topic after topic are a few individuals who behave worse then the so called neo cons that they seem to despise the most. This behavior has absolutely nothing to do with being Liberal (or conservative for that matter of fact) and is just plain rude, intolerant, closed minded, and abusive behavior. This behavior is exactly why so many have left this forum and the forum suffers for lack of a richness of variety of opinions and thoughts.

One very important observation needs to be shared at this point. Compassionate people behave and act in a compassionate manner. Are those who are claiming to be compassionate and open minded actually behaving in that manner or are they attacking and insulting others who express ideas or thoughts outside of their mindset? The answer to this is simple. Not too long ago I had mentioned that I volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. The response that I received from one so called open minded and compassionate individual was that he 'spat on my compassion' and referred to habitat as an organization that promotes 'cruelty'. Is this how a so called compassionate person behaves? Not in my book and hopefully not in yours.

It really is not too complicated to understand or witness that compassionate people act and behave in a compassionate manner. Real engineers behave in a certain manner that other real engineers can pick up upon. Angry and abusive people (well they) continue to behave in an abusive, angry, and uncivil manner and unfortunately so many have left this forum because of this behavior. Sadly, it appears that nothing can be done about this problem so I anticipate more contributors will leave this forum. This is a real tragedy and it continues to hang over this forum like a dark and dreary cloud on a frigid December day that just won't go away.

[usmc1]

No! It is not about whether or not Nacktman's credentials or claims are valid or not and pages of run on sentences and paragraphs about who is civil and who is rude.

It is about the fact that innocent people died during their daily, evening commute as a bridge known to be in dangerous disrepair finally collapsed.

It is about the fact that the bridge could have been repaired, reinforced or replaced if the priority had been high enough and funding been made available for that project.

It is about the fact that funding was not available and it was not a priority due to a political ideology which places tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations above services and programs for the health, education and welfare of We The People.

Now, in this thread I have been accused of being ugly, mentally disturbed, ranting, hysterical, emotional, drama queen, and a slew of other pejoratives because I believe that those who support, aid and abet that ideology are culpable in those deaths. That's fine, I do not require anyone to defend me against such. It is what it is.

But, a couple of vividly clear and very simple truths remain. Those deaths were unnecessary. And those who support the policies which contributed to that bridge's collapse are accountable.

I have not suggested or inferred that this outcome was intended and certainly do not think that conservatives ever stop to think of the ultimate and inevitable consequences of their beliefs. In truth, it is their beliefs which are emotional and illogical and poorly thought out.

If you do not fund repair or replacement, infrastructure decays and collapses. If you do not fund education, you wind up with uneducated, under-employed, unproductive people. If you fund prisons instead of libraries, you wind up with more people going to prison than to libraries. If you do not support the basic human right to quality, affordable, cradle-to-grave health care for all, you have a nation where the well-to-do get taken care of, and the middle-class and poor get taken!

There is a history in this nation of a time when we took care of our people and funded (yes, through taxes) the programs and services which made us the envy of the world; and our middle-class thrived; and we were tackling the problems of poverty; and the wealthy and corporations paid their fair share of the tax burden.

There is now a history in which those programs have been choked off and dismantled or made impotent by under-funding or lack of funding. There is now a history of unsafe bridges and roadways, and railroad crossings and levees and community water supplies. Of entire generations of poor young men without education or opportunity beridden by drugs, alcohol and crime spending the best parts of their lives warehoused in prisons.

We have a history now of 47-million people without health care insurance of which nine-million are kids.

You're a conservative and do not want to fund those things? Fine! But, understand the consequences of your failure to do so. There will be consequences and you will be accountable.

We now have a history of at least thirteen innocent people heading for home on their evening commute dropping into the water below and drowning or being crushed to death as that bridge collapsed because tax breaks were more important than upkeep.

These things are documentable fact. They do not rely on attempted distraction through obfuscation, name-calling, arcane academic debate about cement or steel, appeals to moderators, personal attack, or challenges to anyone's credentials to speak on the issues, or self-anointed presumption of authority to determine the standards of discourse.

There are consequences to our actions and beliefs and we are accountable for those actions. Particularly when those actions or beliefs contribute to the harm or death of others. Sometimes the truth is searing and people become uncomfortable with and want to deny what they have wrought.

That is what we're witnessing in this thread!

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by usmc1:
No! It is not about whether or not Nacktman's credentials or claims are valid or not and pages of run on sentences and paragraphs about who is civil and who is rude.

Another thread that has spun out of control.

The simple fact is that we have been underfunding a lot of things in this country. It is much easier if things are taken care of and paid for all along, instead of delaying facing these critical issues until there are too many to deal with in a timely manner.

Democrats are routinely accused of being tax and spend and I would have to say that that is exactly right. We recognize and respond to issues instead of pretending that they do not exist. We have also been more willing to collect the funds needed instead of making it some future generation's problem.

[nacktman]

The simple fact is WE have been underfunding a lot of things in this country.

Whoa, MJ, that is the very point several of us have made and you see where that has led us.
Instead of discussion on that point and how to alter that, some have, as they ever have done, attacked those making that point and ridiculed and reviled all who agreed with it fully or in part.

The progression of that simple fact is with underfunding or lack of funding in some cases some programs and projects are postponed or abandoned. Following the progression to the next step one finds deterioration of varying degrees in those programs and projects due to the postponement or abandonment. The next step of the progression is the failure of those programs and projects that have been postponed or abandoned.

At this point in the progression comes the questioning as to why the failure happened. One only has to look at the progression to see the answer to that. Some here have and have been attacked for it.

On a historical note:

It has been the republicans who have forced through the largest TAX INCREASES in history.
The largest of which was just a couple of years ago - so why no funds for the repair of the I-35W bridge?

Each time a new 'record high' increase has happened it has been under their "watch" of our government and each time those increased taxes are used to fund low priority projects and diverted to a few individuals in lieu of high priority projects or any type of social or infrastructural project.
The Democrats have funded those high priority, social and infrastructural projects and that is what the republicans refer to when they howl the 'tax and spend' scare-phrase counting on you to see where the Democrats are spending your taxes and you continuing to NOT see where they are spending your INCREASED taxes they are spending.

[MoonShadow]

Underfunding and any abandonment of any repairs is to be determined among other aspects of the bridge failure.

No one has been attacked for stating underfunding and abandonment is the cause but that it may be one of the causes among many. What resulted in the bridge collapse no matter what will be made available and hopefully to prevent any future bridge collapses. Time, of course, will determine this but already the states are upping their bridge inspections and here where I live, they are going to reinspect bridges.

[Sanslines]

This topic is about the Minnesota Bridge tragedy. There is no direct evidence (yet) that this bridge was ever underfunded, that there was maintenance neglect that caused this tragedy, or that even with more frequent inspections and maintenance, that the specific problems could have been detected and elimintated. "Structually defective" also seems to be an abused phrase that is being manipulated by the media to sensationalize this tragedy. As the informed will know, structually defective covers an entire spectrum of defects, and some of those defects require immediate attention and others do not. There also seems to be some confusion about an overall lack of funding of all infrastructure and this particular problem. Until there are concrete answers as to why this bridge collapsed and what, if anything, could have been done to prevent this, any forced conclusions about a lack of funding or an insistence about additional inspections and maintenance that may (or may not) have prevented this are unwarranted and premature.

The entire infrastructure process is a highly complex problem and making blanket statements about throwing more money at this is a huge oversimplification that is spoon fed to people by the media. Sure it is easy to say "raise taxes to pay for infrastructure improvements" but who will pay these taxes?

There are people out there who can pay $5 per gallon of gasoline with ease and then there are those who are seriously struggling with $3 per gallon. If we raise the gasoline tax, as some proposed doing, then we clearly further burden and penalize those with lower incomes. Do we really want to do this? If we levey or raise taxes against the petroleum companies, then those companies will turn right around, raise their prices (for the petroleum industry is not regulated), and again we are back to burdening those least able to afford it.

We also have many documented situations of present fantastic waste and inefficiencies built into the infrastructure maintenance system. I spoke with a paving road crew manager a couple of weeks ago. Roads are normally built with several layers of different consistencies and grades of 'asphalt'. I asked this crew manager why he was not going to use a fine grade of asphalt to seal the road and extend it's lifespan before paving is required again. He replied that the state union will not allow this out of fear of job loss. In short, if the road crew were to seal this road with the appropriate final grade of asphalt, then this road would last five years. By not sealing it, the sublayer would start to deteriorate and crack after only one year. Then, the state road crews could return and apply an oil and stone treatment which last 6 months before deterioration. Yes, it is true that this way of doing things does create a steady stream of work but the rest of us suffer with constantly deteriorating roads and costs that are 5 (or more) times what a proper job would cost in the long run. (Is this really the best use of road monies?) This is just one example of the innefficiencies of present road construction.

As a person can see, it is easy to scream 'raise taxes to fund infrastructure' but the situation becomes very complicated very quickly when all of the competing interests surface and questions as to who will actually pay these taxes (without further punishing those who can least afford those tax increases ie the poor) and also says nothing about the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the present system.

Some people won't follow the politically correct slogan of 'throw more money at a problem until it goes away' unless they can be assured that the problems are all clearly identified and addressed and that all ramifications of actions are clearly understood.

In conclusion, and specifically to this Minnesota bridge, how can any rational person claim that more money could have prevented this particular problem when the problem is not yet completely understood and all of the factual evidence is in?

[Sanslines]

At this point in the progression comes the questioning as to why the failure happened.



MJ, the mechanical means ARE inconsequential. It was known to be deficient structurally. It was not repaired. It failed. End of story.

Finding out exactly what was the mechanical means of its failure will assist in design of future projects and maybe in some future repairs provided the systemic neglect is not still in place - it will be of no use in the repairs needed on other 'bridges' known or suspected to be structurally deficient now.

[MoonShadow]

That is very true, Sanslines.

The answer is not more taxes. The answer is not to keep throwing money at "something". Like education .... we have thrown more money into that system than any other system in this country and what has changed regarding the level of education? From what I hear around me by parents and what I have seen, not much. The system is broken and it needs to be fixed. To up the amount of money going into it will not change the broken system. But I digress to another whole topic.

Raising taxes is NOT the answer. People are burden with taxes as it is now and the poor struggle with what we have on them now. How our current tax dollars are use needs to be looked at. And I digress again .... we should not be spending the trillions of dollars of taxpayers money in a war that is none of our business, wasn't any of our business, and now here we sit with a gaping hole in Iraq....talk about throwing money in!!!

I believe this bridge tragedy will bring many issues to the forefront and a terrible way to banner our own infrastructure. But then it always takes a tragedy to wake people up...sadly.

[MoonShadow]

There are consequences to our actions and beliefs and we are accountable for those actions. Particularly when those actions or beliefs contribute to the harm or death of others. Sometimes the truth is searing and people become uncomfortable with and want to deny what they have wrought.

That is what we're witnessing in this thread!


You are right, usmc, we are accountable as a society...not just government, not just agencies, not just businesses, but all of us. People make up all of these entities so we are accountable.

No one in this thread is denying any truths. This thread is about different possible reasons for the bridge failure. There is NO one set of reasons as to why it failed. The whys and hows are yet to be determined.

[nacktman]

Moonshadow, I am afraid you are mistaken about no one being attacked for stating the fact that underfunding is the root cause of the bridges collapse.
*****

The funding is there in the hands of the government so the diverting tactics of casting aspersion on those who call for it to be used properly and the use of phrases like 'throwing more money at ...' and other scare-phrases, parsing and deliberate misquoting and quoting out of context are just that ... attempts to divert attention from the facts - something that unfortunately you and others have allowed.

The previous congress (republican controlled, if you remember), INCREASED our taxes to a record high, but no extra revenues generated by that increase where put toward projects such as the the repair of the I-35W bridge or providing for any type of 'hard' or 'soft' infrastructure ... care to hazard a guess where the extra funds where placed?

No sane person can deny the progression of the simple fact of what happens when something is underfunded.
Any business owner can tell you if you do not fund your business properly soon you won't have a business.
Any farmer can tell you when you do not use enough of or the right type of fertilizer you will not have a good harvest if a harvest at all.
The same principle applies to government, which is something conservatives do not understand. Proper government is not "big" government and assuredly not the "in your business boogie-man' conservatives use as a scare-phrase, in fact it is they who are "in your business' more than Liberals, one just has to open their eyes to see that, nor is it "small" government where all things are hidden from the masses by the few such as we have today and have since the raygun lunacy first infected this nation. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and the rest of our "Founding Fathers" are spinning in their graves!

[usmc1]

Bridges do not just drop out from under us. This bridge had a history of known problems which have been documented here several times by several persons citing different sources.

All this other stuff merely serves to obscure that fact. The bridge fell because it was going to, what ever structural stresses,faults, disrepair, problems, or precise reasons for its failure is utterly and totally irrelevant except as a mental exercise for those who wish to eschew the deaths.

The simple clear fact remains. Whatever structural, material or design failure that caused that bridge to collaps could have been identified and repaired, retrofitted, or replaced had the funding been there. The funding was not there as a matter of conservative fiscal policy. People died as a result of that policy.

Those who support those conservatives policies are now dancing around the issue like spit on a hot griddle trying to find a way out of accepting that they are, in some degree, accountable for those deaths.

[Sanslines]

Originally posted by usmc1:
Bridges do not just drop out from under us. This bridge had a history of known problems which have been documented here several times by several persons citing different sources.



All this other stuff merely serves to obscure that fact. The bridge fell because it was going to, what ever structural stresses,faults, disrepair, problems, or precise reasons for its failure is utterly and totally irrelevant except as a mental exercise for those who wish to eschew the deaths.

The simple clear fact remains. Whatever structural, material or design failure that caused that bridge to collaps could have been identified and repaired, retrofitted, or replaced had the funding been there. The funding was not there as a matter of conservative fiscal policy. People died as a result of that policy.

Those who support those conservatives policies are now dancing around the issue like spit on a hot griddle trying to find a way out of accepting that they are, in some degree, accountable for those deaths.

lol......lol The bridge fell because it was going to??? What a wonderful answer. Next time I am asked for a specific reasons why something either failed or didn't perform up to requirements, I will just tell the other scientists and engineers that 'it happened just because it was going to happen'. I guess we don't need scientists, engineers, or others to determine any reasons for why something happens. It all just happens because it is going to happen. lol......lol

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:
The simple clear fact remains. Whatever structural, material or design failure that caused that bridge to collaps could have been identified and repaired, retrofitted, or replaced had the funding been there. The funding was not there as a matter of conservative fiscal policy. People died as a result of that policy.


Utter nonsense! You continueally ignore the plalin facts, burry your head in the sand, and keep repeating the same old tired partisan political fiction even when the facts have been posted several times.

The MN Dept. of Transportion inspected the bridge regularly looking for structural faults which they repaired when any were found. They even took the extrordinary step of hiring a university research team at considerable extra expense to look for possible problems and suggest improvements well beyond ordinary due care. Whatever structural defects could have been identified and repaired even at significant extraordinary expense and by extraordiary extra investigation had been done and was being done. Yet you keep repeating that bold face lie that it was lack of funding for repair which caused the colapse.

Maintenance and repair of all identified defects had been continual and was ongoing. But don't let mere facts get in the waay of your insane repetition of your blame conservatiges political mantra.

How many times to you have to repeat the same lie before it becomes true?

Blessings
Bob

[nacktman]

Well, that's two obfuscating posts in a row totally ignoring the central fact and attacking another poster. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sad3.gif

And these two claim to be the victims here? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

How much starker must the clarity be as to who are trolling and attempting to divert this topic (unfortunately succeeding), and who is attacking whom? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/disappointed.gif

[MoonShadow]

Dear Heavens!!! I am surprised at you, Nacktman. Why are you calling the above posters trolls? And they are not diverting the topic anymore than the rest of us.

This is what I was saying in my earlier post. You have something against the two posters above you. I don't see how they are attacking you. I see where they disagree. Calling them trolls is certainly an insult.

I am beginning to sound like the grandmother I am....dear, dear.

Why can't we just enjoy exchanging thoughts here?

[usmc1]

Enjoy? I'm enjoying myself as it is watching the conservatives hop-scotching around the real issue.

And, Moon-shadow, I'm starting to get a hoot out of watching Nacktman being thread stalked by a self-identified granny.

Now, to a lazy old lay-about cowboy like me that is purdee danged enjoyment. Obviously, it don't take all that much to amuse me.

[nimrod]

Once again playing ref.

MoonShadow, explain to me how calling a poster insane is not a personal attack. Sanslines devoted a whole post to Nacktmans "appearent" insanity. And a Bobx23456 post refered to ucmc1's posts as insane repetition. Not that they are not guilty themselves; troll, blathering, ninnering, etc.

Back to the subject, whatever is found out about the bridge, it does not change the fact that neglect is todays standard. New projects rarely think of the future use, the attitude is wait until it fails then see what went wrong. Instead of making things to last generations, the attitude is to spend as little money as possible and see what happens.

[MoonShadow]

Yes, I am a grannie and love every minute of it! Many of us are fortunate to be grandparents and it is enjoyable to be one.

[walter05]

I said in my post on August 8, at 5:37 P.M. "When I complained that Nacktman had pointed a finger at President Bush in a cartoon, he responded that was not his intent and I misinterpreted what seemed obvious. I did not respond because there was no point to it. I thought, and think that the cartoon was quite clear. "

I later added the following:

"Particularly the attacks and tone have been very rude but the way they usually contribute to other topics."

I have a chance now to illustrate how I think these exchanges should have gone. In reference to Sanslines criticisms of me for not calling others to task for rudeness, I explained why I had not called them out.

In Nactman's Post of August 08, 2007 08:57 PM he said: "Walter on a note to you, I have been civil in my posts and have answered your questions completely ... you have responded to some, some you have not."

When it was clear to me that there was a difference of opinion that would not be resolved, I did not respond. I let it go.

In my last e-mail I was more candid about why I did not respond to USMC1 and Nactman. Both of them had a right to attack back. Neither one did. Instead they chose to respond to the charges. In fact between us, I was the one out of line.

USMC1 responded by restating his positions in a clear but emotional way. Of the three of us, I was the worst offender, Nactman okay, and USMC1 the most adult in his approach.

No one called anyone names. No one attempted to get psychological help for anyone. No one challenged each other’s credentials. This was the way to handle an emotional outburst.

It is possible for Nactman, USMC1, and I to now resume a calm conversation.

It is true that for other topics, Nactman, USMC1, and I have argued quite strongly. However, those were different topics. I believe that the three of us are treating this topic as a stand-alone topic. This is what all should do.

Moonshadow;

There have been numerous attacks from the right and left in this thread. They have all been wrong. I will choose not to site them so that we don’t cause further flare-ups.

I have attempted to defend myself and now have reread that and realized that in the heat of emotion, I succumbed also. I should not have pointed any fingers. I am embarrassed and sorry.

To all;

I will say it again.

There is the issue of the political environment and how it contributed to the failure.

I have been tracking down information on money in federal highways funds not spent for years. It helped hide the deficit. My sources show that it has gone on for at least the last fourteen years. I suspect it for longer.

If State and Federal Highways departments were cut short in this manner, they may have been forced to be more frugal. This may have cut the margin of safety. If so, politicians of both parties as well as independents share some of the blame for the bridge's failure.

The second question is the engineering question. We do need to know the proximate cause of the failure. Otherwise we will waist our money and efforts to prevent similar tragedies.

If we can agree that both questions are valid and deserve attention, then we will find that Naturist Mark, USMC1, Nactman, Sanslines, and Bob have all added to this discussion. Instead of tearing each other down, we can build a consensus so that we can encourage a proper solution.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by nimrod:
Once again playing ref.

MoonShadow, explain to me how calling a poster insane is not a personal attack. Sanslines devoted a whole post to Nacktmans "appearent" insanity. And a Bobx23456 post refered to ucmc1's posts as insane repetition. Not that they are not guilty themselves; troll, blathering, ninnering, etc.

Back to the subject, whatever is found out about the bridge, it does not change the fact that neglect is todays standard. New projects rarely think of the future use, the attitude is wait until it fails then see what went wrong. Instead of making things to last generations, the attitude is to spend as little money as possible and see what happens.

Nattering, Nimrod, nattering damn it! Not ninnering, but it sounds pretty neat.

Seems there was a post here, that vanished suddenly, which was taking me to task for initiating all the hurdy gurdy by picking on poor ole Bob.

Well, I went back and looked and this is what I wrote;

"No, it has nothing at all to do with any of that. And you will not obfuscate the truth without reply.

The truth is very simple: that bridge fell because of neglect and failure to spend the money to repair or replace due to decades of fiscal conservatism and pandering cowardice.

No more, no less.

Conservatives don't want to pay taxes to provide for the health, education and welfare of our people or to provide for infrastructure repairs, upgrades or replacements, or for the services required to support those things.

Fine, they've sown, now they're reaping!

But, nattering about about design, materials, state versus federal spending and all the other merde that has been flung around in this thread this afternoon just does not get it. That bridge was built about 39 years ago and academic questions about what happened to it through the years are utterly irrelevant and callous.

The issue is very simple and very clear. Innocent people died in a horrible, avoidable tragedy because money was not spent to properly inspect and repair or replace that bridge. It had to do with conservative spending priorities that put people last.

Academic questions about angles, type of concrete, weight loads and other BS are insulting, obfuscative, callous and meaningless.

People died because of wrongful priorities. And the people who espouse those priorities and vote for and support politicians who act on those priorities are accountable for those deaths."

That has been my position all along. I fail to see anything in my words, though strong, forceful,unequivocating and pointed, which justifies anyone calling me mentally ill, hysterical, ranting or emotional. Or any of the other pejoratives that has been strewn in my direction.

In fact, those words of mine were directed specifically at an individual who has come before us calling for the "dead or alive" bounties on undocumented workers. This person has no legitimate basis from which to criticize anyone or to question their mental health.

Anyone who can't make the distinction between strong,forceful arguement and calling for the murder of innocents in a forum such as this is utterly beyond my scope of understanding.

And, I will reiterate and not retreat from this. I do regard it as obfuscative, callous and meaningless to engage in academic debate about the mechanics of the bridge's collapse when it is obvious that had the money been spent to keep that bridge in repair or else replaced it would not have fallen killing innocent people.

I repeat, there are consequences to policy decisions!

[usmc1]

And here is what I have been writing about at work...

President Bush on Thursday dismissed raising the federal gasoline tax to repair the nation's bridges, though - as proposed Wednesday by House Transportation Committee Chairman Jim Oberstar, D-Minn. - at least until Congress changes the way it spends highway money.

"The way it seems to have worked is that each member on that (Transportation) committee gets to set his or her own priorities first," Bush said. "That's not the right way to prioritize the people's money. Before we raise taxes, which could affect economic growth, I would strongly urge the Congress to examine how they set priorities."

This has been going on since the 80s and Reagan's voodoo economics. There are consequences!

[walter05]

USMC1;

President Bush does have a point.

Senators and Representatives of both parties have used transportation funding to help with re-election campaigns. The infamous bridge to no where in Alaska comes to mind.

We may indeed need to raise taxes and/or fees for bridges, etc. However, first we need to make sure that money raised in taxes for that purpose is authorized, appropriated and spent for that purpose. We also need to make sure that the most important safety related projects are done first.

Once the priorities are taken care of, then if needed, raising fees and/or taxes will make sense.

[MoonShadow]

Walter, what fees and taxes would make sense to raise?

[Sanslines]

MoonShadow, explain to me how calling a poster insane is not a personal attack. Sanslines devoted a whole post to Nacktmans "appearent" insanity.

Nope,

Sanslines did NOT call Nacktman insane. Not sure why you not seeing what really happened in this forum. Perhaps you need to go back and review the posts. Yes one post after another where your comrade Nacktman constantly harassed and insulted Bobx. You know the history. Time to be fair and honest. When you start being fair and honest about the constant abuses that have occured over the long haul by your comrades, then the rest of us will take your posts seriously. Just curious why you are not calling out Nacktman's history of constant abuses? Are you afraid of him? It is all so very interesting how Nacktman is free to run around this forum and call people 'troll', 'obfuscating', etc etc and yet no one ever does anything about it. I suppose that it is ok for Nacktman to constantly continue his abuses but it is not ok for others to defend themselves.

Can you really not see how Nackman is continuing to harass us with his constant provocations? Can you really not understand that he is allowed to do this with pure impunity in thread after thread and yet no one ever calls him to task on it? Can you really not see how Bobx was treated like sh*t by Nacktman in thread after thread? Can you not see how they have attempted to hammer me repeatedly and yet you only seem to notice when I fight back? Can you not understand how this is their standard operating procedure to attempt to wear someone down until they say'scr*w this forum' and then leave? How can you sit there and remain so silent when all of this is going on in thread after thread and yet you notice first when Bobx or Sanslines fights back?

[nimrod]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Nacktman,

I did, however, do you a big favor and contacted a friend of mine in the North Carolina Department of Human Services, Mental Health Division. After reading a number of your posts, she stated that you are in desperate need of a good psycho analyst. The state of North Carolina can and will help you. Mental illness is a very serious problem - a problem that North Carolina does take very seriously. You most certainly and desperately need help as there definitely is a very serious problem if you continue to come on line and self create a world with lies, fabrications, delusions, and other assorted fantasies.

Please do us all a big favor, get that special help now, and hopefully you will be able to again join the rest of us in the real world shortly. Good luck!

You may not have actually used the word insane, but the statement above is a clear indication of what you ment. Stop spliting hairs. It was still a personal attack. And if you re-read my posts you might see that I actually agree with you that it is too early to tell what exactly caused the bridge too fall. But I also agree with your opponents that there is something wrong in the good ol' U.S. of A. because of the selfish mentality that makes people act in a way to line their pockets instead of making sure that our highways are safe.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by walter05:
To all;

I will say it again.

There is the issue of the political environment and how it contributed to the failure.

I have been tracking down information on money in federal highways funds not spent for years. It helped hide the deficit. My sources show that it has gone on for at least the last fourteen years. I suspect it for longer.

If State and Federal Highways departments were cut short in this manner, they may have been forced to be more frugal. This may have cut the margin of safety. If so, politicians of both parties as well as independents share some of the blame for the bridge's failure.

"IF" you say. That's a pretty big IF There has been no showing of any cause and effect relationship between supposed budget disputes and any lack of inspection, maintenance, and repair of this particular bridge. Facts concerning inspection and maintenance of this particular bridge over many years and ongoing up until the time of its colapse have been posted several times. Whatever the budget arguments in Washington they have not been shown to have had any effects on the mainteanance of this particular bridge. Until some relationship of cause and effect are shown, how did budgets diminish or prevent adequate repair of this bridge, then all of that is irrelevant obfuscation and political posturing unrealted to the cause of this bridge colapsing. Please show us some facts about cause and effect on this bridge, or stop blowning political smoke.


The second question is the engineering question. We do need to know the proximate cause of the failure. Otherwise we will waist our money and efforts to prevent similar tragedies.

If we can agree that both questions are valid and deserve attention, then we will find that Naturist Mark, USMC1, Nactman, Sanslines, and Bob have all added to this discussion. Instead of tearing each other down, we can build a consensus so that we can encourage a proper solution.

Nope, *both* questions are NOT valid, only one has been shown to be valid. There is no agreement. Unless and until someone provides some evidence of reduced budgets having a cause and effect relationship with lack of maintenance, repair, or other factors on this bridge, there won't be agreement that budget decisions had any effect on it whatsoever. To date all we have seen is a lot of political smoke.

Blessings
Bob

[Sanslines]

You may not have actually used the word insane, but the statement above is a clear indication of what you ment.

Now what do you have to say about the continuous nasty and abusive remarks that Nacktman has and continues to make against those that disagree with him?

Do you think that his behavior is normal and would you treat others as he is treating people in this forum?

[Sanslines]

It was still a personal attack.

If you honestly believe that his behavior is normal and that others are wrong to object to and defend themselves, then you will see anything that anyone says against Nacktman as a personal attack. Yes, I have also noticed that you don't seem to care to discuss or elaborate upon Nacktman's or USMC's abuses other then as a secondary reference after initially pointing out Bobx and Sanslines 'abuses'. If you want to 'play ref', you then need to be fair and unbiased towards all.

[Sanslines]

What allows us, as human beings, to psychologically survive life on earth, with all of its pain, drama, and challenges, is a sense of purpose and meaning.


No! What allows human beings to survive all the tragedies of this world is HUMOR - of which you are contributing to greatly in this thread.

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by MoonShadow:
what fees and taxes would make sense to raise?

By law fuel taxes go into the transportation trust fund and cannot be used for any other purpose.

Problem - fuel taxes are levied by volume, not price -it is NOT a sales tax, so no extra revenue is brought in as prices rise. Thus inflation each year decreases the effective 'pie' of funding available for highway infrastructure investments and maintenance. That means that even to meet minimal needs each year ever increasing supplementals must be added to the infrastructure budget (actually transportation apportionments are typically multi-year bills, plus each year's 'markups' like Senator's Stephens bridge to nowhere.) The last transportation bill was underfunded by 89 billion dollars - all that money has to be not spent somewhere.

[Sanslines]

In addition to Federal Fuel Tax, there are a whole bunch of additional taxes that states and localities levy against gasoline.

From Taxfoundation:

New York's gasoline tax stands at 39 cents per gallon, which is the highest gas tax in the nation. Additionally, New York levies state and county sales and use taxes, which can range from 7.25%-9.75%.

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
Additionally, New York levies state and county sales and use taxes, which can range from 7.25%-9.75%. Yep, except those taxes are not levied as percentages, they are per gallon. That range of 7.25%-9.75% is due to fluctuating fuel prices, not fluctuating tax rates per gallon.

Understand the point that fuel taxes are an ever decreasing source of revenue, so just to stay even they must be regularly increased. And of course they are periodically increased, but not in proportion. Thus today's 47 cent per gallon tax in Ohio is a small fraction of the price of a gallon of gas, but 1990's 41 cent tax (these aren't the exact numbers) was nearly half the price of a gallon of gas just before Saddam invaded Kuwait. I'm not saying that fuel taxes should be 300% higher because gasoline is, but it should probably be at least 50% higher just to keep up with infrastructure needs - and that assumes that we fully met our infrastructure needs in 1990 - which we did not.

[Sanslines]

Yep, except those taxes are not levied as percentages, they are per gallon. That range of 7.25%-9.75% is due to fluctuating fuel prices, not fluctuating tax rates per gallon.


Sales and Use tax in New York State is not fixed but consists of a flat 4 percent state portion across the entire state plus an additional amount that varies from county to county. The county portion of sales tax varies from 3.25 percent to 5.75 percent. I think that this is why this range is given.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by MoonShadow:
Walter, what fees and taxes would make sense to raise?

If raising taxes is the answer, why didn't it resolve the problem the last several times that taxes were raised?

We are always promised that our problems will be solved if taxes are raised, and we buy their bologna, and two years later they make the same promises that problems will be solved if they raise our taxes. Raising taxes has never worked before. I see little probability that raising taxes will solve anything now.

Blessings
Bob

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by Sanslines:


This is a bit confusing but I the range includes both sales tax and use tax.

Sales tax in New York State is not fixed but consists of a flat 4 percent all across the state plus an additional amount that varies from county to county. The county portion of sales tax varies from 3 percent to 5 percent. I think that this is why a range is given.

That certainly is confusing. In most states there is no sales tax on fuel.

Question: is the 4% sales tax on fuel purposes dedicated to transportation infrastructure like the fuel excise taxes are? Or do they go to general revenue?

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
If raising taxes is the answer, why didn't it resolve the problem the last several times that taxes were raised?

Raising taxes alone doesn't achieve much. You have to spend it, and do so wisely.

When you don't have enough to even meet urgent needs, you have to gamble on what projects can be delayed without disaster. Sometimes we lose those bets.

The point is that most fuel excise taxes go into a transportation trust fund that is not allowed to be spent on other purposes. Because the tax levels continuously fall in real dollars, the fund is not adequate to continue to meet future infrastructure needs. And it has been underfunded so long into the past, that it is inadequate to meet current needs. The difference must be made up from supplementals from general revenue, plus the occasional adjustment in excise tax rates - which never quite restore the status quo. The last go round in 2005 left the fund underfunded by 89 billion dollars. Therefore we need to delay 89 billion dollars worth of projects, and hope we make the right bets.

[Ken Palmer]

Hey NakedGary, I am sorry that I placed this thread in the miscellaneous category. I either didn't realize that this category is nudist and/or naturist subject,or I knew and simply forgot. Once again, my deepest apologies for the mistake. I will be more careful in choosing my topics for this category.

Ken Palmer




Originally posted by NakedGary:
Miscellaeous category is a naturist and nudist related forum. This thread is being moved to "Open Conversation"

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MoonShadow:
[Walter, what fees and taxes would make sense to raise?
If raising taxes is the answer, why didn't it resolve the problem the last several times that taxes were raised?

We are always promised that our problems will be solved if taxes are raised, and we buy their bologna, and two years later they make the same promises that problems will be solved if they raise our taxes. Raising taxes has never worked before. I see little probability that raising taxes will solve anything now.

Blessings
Bob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With apologies to those who find this redundant or repetitious, here's the answer to the question of what happens when the very wealthy and corporations pay their fair share of the tax burden. And with perfect hindsight, I think the original post really belonged in this thread.

Bob, herein is the answer to your question of what happens when the wealthy, and corporations pay their fair share of taxes. For your edification, I've highlighted those positive results.

"Some people do not remember, or else have chosen to forget that after the Republican Great Depression FDR put this country on the road to recovery and back to work,<span class="ev_code_red"> partly by raising taxes on income above $3 - $4-million to 91 percent and corporate taxes to over 50% of profits. Those funds built dams, roads, bridges, sewers, water system, schools, hospitals, an interstate highway system and airports. Those funds educated a generation of valiant men returning home from war.</span>

During the Eisenhower years of the 50s loophole after loophole for the rich were snaked into the tax codes. <span class="ev_code_red">John Kennedy, debating that perfidious b*st*rd, Richard Nixon, said that dropping the tax rate on top incomes to 70% while closing the loopholes would actually result in a increase in tax revenues. Once elected, he pushed through that tax increase and America resumed its ascendancy and we once again went to work building infrastructure. We met the challenge and put a man on the moon.</span>

<span class="ev_code_red">Workers raised their families and planned for a safe and secure old-age and enjoyed affordable health care and college tuitions. For each billion dollars invested in infrastructure 47,000 jobs were created as Americans built America. Many of those same workers have now, as the direct result of Reganomics and corporate greed, lost their health-care and pensions and grapple with survival.</span>

Things changed drastically for the worse with the Conservative Mandate and Reagan’s infliction of voodoo economics on the country. Taxes on the very rich were cut to 27% from 70%, and corporate taxes were cut so severely that they fell from 33% of total tax revenues in the 50s to less than 9% in the 80s. They remain among the lowest of all industrialized nations.

Aside from the massive debt and borrowing of Reagan’s voodoo economics those tax cuts have devastated investments in infrastructure resulting in crumbling bridges, overpasses, roadways, levees, hospitals, and all the other infrastructure built by our parents and grandparents during the Golden Age of the American Middle Class during the four decades of the 40s to the 80s. Then, a youngster could work his/her way through college with some aid and a part-time job. Now, it requires life-altering loans.

Now as the result of these “conservative” policies and economics our infrastructure is crumbling and disintegrating. Hospitals and Highways and power and water systems are being privatized into the hands of multi-national corporations. And, the middle-class is becoming the “working poor”.

And, Oh Yeah! Mr. Bush has continued the assault on working America:

•Over 5-million people have slipped into poverty.
•Nearly 7-million more Americans have lost their health insurance
•Median household income has declined by nearly $1,300
•3-Million manufacturing jobs have been lost
•3-Million older Americans have lost their pensions.
•Home-foreclosures are now the highest on record
•The personal savings rate is below zero for the first time since the great Depression
•The real earnings of college graduates have gone down by about 5% over the past few years
•Entry level wages for male and female high school graduates have dropped by over 3%
•Wages and salaries are now at the lowest share of GDP since 1929

These are the results of Conservatism, when all legal and social restraint to unlimited selfishness is removed compared to what occurs when the wealthy and corporations contribute their fair share to the tax responsibility and workers thrive and the middle class propels the economy.

Credit and acknowledgment is hereby rendered to Thom Hartman and his newly released book; “Screwed: The Undeclared War on the Middle Class and What We Can Do About It”, and to U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders.

[Sanslines]

Question: is the 4% sales tax on fuel purposes dedicated to transportation infrastructure like the fuel excise taxes are? Or do they go to general revenue?

That certainly is confusing. In most states there is no sales tax on fuel.

New York State has very complicated tax codes and a myriad of taxes levied against gasoline. You pose an interesting question and I will attempt to find the complete variety of taxes levied against gasoline and also their intended use. From what I understand, sales tax is placed into the general fund and used for whatever purposes the state legislature deems necessary.

Concerning general gasoline tax information:

From Wiki:

United States of America

The first U.S. state tax on fuel was introduced in February 1919 in Oregon. It was a 1 cent per U.S. gallon (0.3¢/L) tax. In the following decade, all of the U.S. states (48 at the time), along with the District of Columbia, introduced a gasoline tax. By 1939, an average tax of 3.8¢/gal (1¢/L) of fuel was levied by the individual states. The fuel tax in Texas is currently set at 20¢/gal since being raised to that amount in 1991. In May of 2007, the Texas House of representatives unanimously voted to pass a 'gas-tax relief' period for the 2007 summer driving period. The measure was not passed by the state Senate.

While state fuel taxes had been around for more than a decade, the first federal gasoline tax in the United States was created on June 6, 1932 with the enactment of the Revenue Act of 1932 with a tax of 1 cent/gal (0.3¢/L). The U.S. federal gasoline tax as of 2005 was 18.4¢/gal (4.86¢/L), and the gasoline taxes in the various states range from 10 cents to 33 cents, with an average about 22 cents per U.S. gallon (5.8¢/L), making the average combined tax on gasoline 42¢/gal. Unlike most goods in the U.S., the price displayed includes all taxes, rather than being calculated at the point of purchase.

One reason why we all seem to have such strong differences of opinions concerning taxes is that we all live in different states with widely varying tax rates. New York State is consistently considered one of the most (if not the most) heavily taxed state in this country.

Specifically concerning Texas:

Texas Gas Tax Relief

The Price at the pump is surging again and gasoline prices may hit $3 this summer. Amendment (Senate Bill 1886) submitted by Rep. Trey Martinez Fischer, D-San Antonio was approved by a wide margin in the Texas House; you could refer to it as "tax-free gas" for the summer 2007 driving season. The tentatively adopted measure approved on May 8, 2007 would temporarily suspend the state's 20-cent gas tax during the 2007 summer months.

The summer months are typically a time of increased gasoline purchases due to family vacations and road trips. Should this amendment pass the Senate, it would mean an immediate 20-cent drop in the price per gallon tax which has been in place since 1991. According to Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst, the suspension of the gasoline tax will be difficult to pass, "particularly at a time when we're trying to find more resources to build highways and reduce congestion."

State Representative Fischer remains optimistic that the Senate will bow to increasingly weary Texans when it comes to higher gas prices. "My constituents are saying, 'Gas is too high,' and I imagine the Senate is hearing from the same constituents".

Fischer’s amendment to a gas-tax collection bill would repeal the state's gasoline tax for 90 days. This is estimated to cost the state an estimated $500 million to $700 million dollars toward highway construction and public education. The estimated cost would be absorbed by the current $8 billion budget surplus; funds which are currently split almost evenly between money set aside for future school property tax cuts and the state's Rainy Day fund. "That fund goes to times when we are in crisis and, right now, with gas prices through the roof, there is a crisis," Martinez Fischer said. "The last time I checked, that money belongs to the people of Texas."

The Texas House of Representatives approved Senate Bill 1886 by a 118-16 vote; the Senate is expected to vote on the measure in the near future. Should the Senate agree with the changes, the amended bill, including the gas tax suspension, will go to the governor's desk where it could be signed into law. If the Senate does not pass the bill, members of each chamber would be appointed to a special conference committee to negotiate a compromise.
Property Tax Relief

Senate Finance Chairman Steve Ogden, R-Bryan, called the proposal to the omnibus tax collection bill "very creative" adding a prediction the tax holiday would not survive the Texas Senate. "The surplus needs to be used to pay for property tax relief, and that's what we're going to do." Texas is sitting on a record surplus budget, and state leaders have suggested saving that money in order to give property tax relief in two years. Again, this suggested property tax relief would come in two years, as opposed to saving money this year, right now.

Representative Fischer said that the average homeowner in his district would only save $79 in school property tax cuts which is less than what a two-car family could save under a 90-day gasoline tax freeze would provide.
Representative Fischer also noted that airlines don't pay any state tax on jet fuel they buy in Texas; If it's good enough for them, then it's good enough for the average working family.

"The more cars you have, the more relief you get.”. "We're sitting here on record savings. We used to say around here it's the people's money. We ought to give it back." If Perry signs the amended bill, the gasoline tax relief would take immediate effect and be good for 90 days. This will cover most of the typically high-priced summer driving period and allow most travelers to do more things with their vacation dollars.

According to Gov. Rick Perry, the tax reprieve goes far enough and has called for lawmakers to deliver $2.5 billion in tax relief this session. According Perry spokesman Ted Royer, the Governor applauds lawmakers for looking at ways to reduce the Texas Tax Burden, yet he believes taxpayers deserve more than $500 million in relief when the state has a record budget surplus.

Note: Mr Fischer, who introduced this legislation is NOT a Conservative Republican. We need to look beyond the political party and at the legislation and intended ramifications of passing such legislation.

In New York State, we have the exact opposite situation. One of the taxes levied against gasoline is increased on a yearly basis as this is required by state law.

The obvious solution to those who are living in a low cost tax state, such as Texas, would be to move to a much higher tax state, such as New York where they would be much happier paying the enormous taxes that we have here. Living in Texas and experiencing the continuous and strong demand for tax relief must be pure torture for someone who wishes to live in a state where the exact opposite policies are promoted. The simple answer: Move to New York and be happy.

[Sanslines]

The Failed Attempt to Roll Back the New York State Gas Tax:

http://www.nysenatedems.com/pressreleases/SenateDemocratsApproveGasTaxCuts


Article entitled "New York State Senate Democrats Approve Gas Tax Cuts - Call For State Government to Lead Energy Conservation"

The purpose of this article is to demonstrate that members from both political parties have called for a temporary elimination of their state portion of gasoline tax. To continuously lay any and all blame squarely on the shoulders of Conservative Republicans is wrong as the facts demonstrate. The problem of tax revenues goes well beyond partisan party politics.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by usmc1:

"Some people do not remember, or else have chosen to forget that after the Republican Great Depression FDR put this country on the road to recovery and back to work,<span class="ev_code_red"> partly by raising taxes on income above $3 - $4-million to 91 percent and corporate taxes to over 50% of profits. Those funds built dams, roads, bridges, sewers, water system, schools, hospitals, an interstate highway system and airports. Those funds educated a generation of valiant men returning home from war.</span>


Indeed, between drastically cutting back the money supply to strangle business and taxing investment to death Roosevelt extended the great depression from a minor glitch into a decade long disaster. The poor and hard working men and their families who know little of basic economics suffered most. Of course Roosevelt and his cronies blamed "the ritch" and converted the gullible to his political party all the while screwing them every way but up.

High taxes destroy the economy and hurt the ignorant working class most. It has always been that way, but the working class never learns.

Currently, unemployment is at a record low, but the wages of the working class are being hugely depressed by a massive supply of cheap illegal immagrant labor -- supported and protected by the "liberals" who always claim to be helping those whom they are screwing. Basic economics never goes away.

Blessings
Bob

[Sanslines]

Currently, unemployment is at a record low, but the wages of the working class are being hugely depressed by a massive supply of cheap illegal immagrant labor -- supported and protected by the "liberals" who always claim to be helping those whom they are screwing. Basic economics never goes away.


The sad thing in upstate New York is that the economic decay has gone on for over 30 years and through both Democrat and Republican State administrations. Both parties are to be blamed as neither party seems willing or able to do what is necessary to create meaningful job growth. The high paying jobs and industries have all left the state (upstate region and not NYC) and the only jobs that are being created are part time minimum wage jobs with no benefits. Since the skilled and higher paying jobs are no longer here, the educated workforce has left and young people continue to leave for better opportunities in other states - including Texas. The problem goes byond that for as jobs have evaporated, so have the skilled and young people, and with the loss of such people so have the leisure activities and other incentives for the young and the skilled to relocate to upstate. This problem has gone on for so long that there really is not much hope left for any improvement no matter who is elected to office. This is direct observation and fact!

In New Jersey, however, the main source of tax revenue are property taxes which are sky high. The wage structure is vastly different in New Jersey as high paying skilled jobs are availible. People who make the fantastic salaries that are availible in New Jersey (as well as the NYC area) can afford to pay the sky high taxes whereas any call for more taxes in New York State only drives the working poor and middle class (what's left of it) further into poverty.

Back to fuel tax (Wiki):

...........Gas stations on Interstates in New Jersey (and Pennsylvania) close to the New York border typically witness large volumes of sales from drivers taking advantage of the double cuts of less expensive fuel blend and lower fuel sales tax resulting in a significant savings over New York.......

[usmc1]

Sanslines....Conservatives, regardless which party's label they choose, are conservatives. However, it is a fair and easily demonstrable fact that the majority of those identifying with "conservatism" are Republicans. Are you suggesting otherwise.

Bob...huffing and puffing opinion without citing specifics really deserves no response other than to suggest Denial is not a river in Egypt. But, hell, why not!

Under Roosevelt, Truman, JFK, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, and Clinton the Middle Class thrived and we were tackling the problems of poverty and providing for the health, education, and welfare of our people.

Jobs were created, infrastructure was built, and goals were met. And the wealthy and corporations paid their fair share of taxes without loop holes.

Under Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush quite the opposite has happened. And now a bridge drops out from under innocent people during their evening commute. Now, a little boy dies because the dental and health care to keep in alive was not available, now indigents, some mentally ill, some physically disabled, are "dumped" on the streets by privatized, for profit, corporate hospitals.

Oh the list goes on. And, yes, it is the selfishness of conservatism that is at the root of these problems.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Sanslines:The sad thing in upstate New York is that the economic decay has gone on for over 30 years and through both Democrat and Republican State administrations. Both parties are to be blamed as neither party seems willing or able to do what is necessary to create meaningful job growth. The high paying jobs and industries have all left the state (upstate region and not NYC) and the only jobs that are being created are part time minimum wage jobs with no benefits. Since the skilled and higher paying jobs are no longer here, the educated workforce has left and young people continue to leave for better opportunities in other states - including Texas. The problem goes byond that for as jobs have evaporated, so have the skilled and young people, and with the loss of such people so have the leisure activities and other incentives for the young and the skilled to relocate to upstate. This problem has gone on for so long that there really is not much hope left for any improvement no matter who is elected to office. This is direct observation and fact!

In New Jersey, however, the main source of tax revenue are property taxes which are sky high. The wage structure is vastly different in New Jersey as high paying skilled jobs are availible. People who make the fantastic salaries that are availible in New Jersey (as well as the NYC area) can afford to pay the sky high taxes whereas any call for more taxes in New York State only drives the working poor and middle class (what's left of it) further into poverty.


Exactly, the government is almost never the solution to the problem, it is the problem. NY is a classic example of overly fat government destroying the hands that feed it.

The hard working people would be a lot better off if the government got off our backs and out of our pockets.

Blessings
Bob

[Sanslines]

Are you suggesting otherwise.

No I am not suggesting this at all. I have never suggested or discussed which party has the greater number of Conservatives. The point that I am really making that there is enormous diversity in both parties including the Democratic Party and there are many within the Democratic Party who wish to put partisan party bickering aside and attempt to assist those that they feel need assistance. It appears that the Texas Democratic Rep who introduced legislation to repeal the state gasoline tax in Texas for this Summer was motivated, in part, by the fact that those affected the most by higher gasoline taxes are least able to pay it.

[walter05]

Moonshadow;

Naturist Mark provided the outlines of the answer. If taxes and fees have to be raised, that should be for use of the highways. User fees would be the fairest taxes. Those who use the roads would pay and those who don't would not.

Licensees, tag fees, etc. for truckers, particularly for the large fleets and the newer trucks pulling additional trailers may need to be adjusted. In addition, motor fuel taxes may need to be raised.

However, I agree with Bob that is only a big "IF". I want the government to make sure that the taxes and fees already paid are wisely used first. Raising any taxes and fees should only be a last resort and not a first option.

It is not uncommon for the Federal government to have dedicated funds such as from air transport taxes, motor fuel taxes, etc. and to not spend the money. Those funds run a nice surplus that minimizes the deficits. This has been done by both Republican and Democratic administrations. This process may have also contributed to the problems.

Bob;

With all due respects, both problems are relevant.

How often are the bridges inspected? How thorough are the inspections? Etc.

If there is a shortage of funds, maintenance and inspections may have been reduced. This may have been a part of the circumstances that led to the bridge failing.

If the engineers determine that metal fatigue or some other cause at some point on the bridge caused the failure that will be important to know. However, the engineers can't say if there had been more frequent and better inspections whether or not it was more likely that the failure could have been prevented. This is why both questions are important. We need to have both questions addressed if we want to prevent future tragedies.

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What allows us, as human beings, to psychologically survive life on earth, with all of its pain, drama, and challenges, is a sense of purpose and meaning.


No! What allows human beings to survive all the tragedies of this world is HUMOR - of which you are contributing to greatly in this thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that answers my question of why you would align yourself with a man who calls for "dead or alive" bounties on undocumented workers. You find humor in a thread which is essentially about the deaths of innocent men, women and children whose bridge fell out from under them during their evening commute.

I find neither humorous. I do wonder, though, about the emotional and psychological equilibrium of a person who would find humor in such, algin themselves with a person advocating murder, and go to the extent of reviewing another's posting with some unidentified "mental health professional" in order to render some sort of instant diagnosis or analysis of that person's mental state.

You persistantly marginalize yourself with this sort of bizarre behavior. Really, I stopped taking your seriously long ago.

But, please try to restrain yourself and focus on what this thread is about: the deaths of innocents because a bridge fell out from under them. A bridge that they had every right to believe was safe.

I along with others really wish you would stop with the snide comments and personal agenda and focus! My signature line has nothing to do with you, this thread, or anything else. And it certainly is not deserving of some cheap-shot sarcasm on your part! Grow up!

[Sanslines]

You find humor in a thread which is essentially about the deaths of innocent men, women and children whose bridge fell out from under them during their evening commute.

C'mon, USMC, you know better then this. You continue to accuse those of us who do not agree with you 100 percent as somehow either unsympathetic to the deaths, or guilty of complicity and complacency in this tragedy. You keep trying to smear blood on our hands but it just isn't working. I suggest that before you accuse others of wrongful statements, that you look at your own nasty, insensitive, and abusive statements towards others.

What I honestly find sad are your constant up and down emotional outbursts. In one posting you seem rather calm (ie this morning) and indicate the possibility of a normal conversation, then in another, you succumb to your emotions and destroy any possibility of a normal conversation (ie this thread).

What I do find humorous is your statement yesterday about giving a reason for this bridge to fall down "it fell down just because it was supposed to fall down". This statement has to be taken as humorous as no sensible person would ever even consider such a statement as anything even remotely rational, logical, or reasonable. You certainly could not ever be taken seriously when making such a statement and so one of the options is to assume that you are using humor.

Are you going to continue to go back into past old postings to search for statements and other assorted out of context tidbits of information that you will attempt to throw back on me in some cheap sort of attack or will you get a attempt to get a grip on your emotions and at least try to focus on some kind of remotely intelligent conversation (as you were attempting to do earlier this morning)?

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by walter05:
Bob;

With all due respects, both problems are relevant.

How often are the bridges inspected? How thorough are the inspections? Etc.

Bridge inspections are supposed to be routinely done every two to four years. Normal inspections are done according to widely recognized standards for such work. THIS bridge was being inspected annually. The NM Dept. of Transportation had even taken the ESTRA COST step of hiring the University Engineering Dept. to do a complete analysis ABOVE AND BEYOND NORMAL INSPECITONS.



If there is a shortage of funds, maintenance and inspections may have been reduced. This may have been a part of the circumstances that led to the bridge failing.

There was NO shortage of funds. The MN Dept of Tranportation had no history of failing to do all the identified maintenance and repair on THIS bridge. They had even spent MORE than what would normally be needed for extra research to identify EXTRAORDIANARY improvements that might be made. At the time of the colapse work to repair identified wear and tear was funded and ongoing. There is NO evidence that this bridge had any shortage of maintenance funding. In fact the reverse is true, as has been posted here SEVERAL TIMES already.


If the engineers determine that metal fatigue or some other cause at some point on the bridge caused the failure that will be important to know. However, the engineers can't say if there had been more frequent and better inspections whether or not it was more likely that the failure could have been prevented. This is why both questions are important. We need to have both questions addressed if we want to prevent future tragedies.

Wrong! There was NO lack of funding repair and maintenance for THIS bridge. It is disingenuous and shall we say, deliberatly false, to keep repeating that political nonsense about this bridge.

It may turn out that generally accepted inspections normally done to every bridge are not adequate in some manner, and it may turn out that even the EXTRA COST university research project was not adequate to identify hidden flaws in the structure. But those are technical questions about the adequacy of current engineering and inspection methods. They are NOT indicative that the best commonly available methods were avoided because of political funding agendas. The claim of "conservative funding shortages" being a contributing factor is demonstrablely false by the history of inspection and maintenance on THIS bridge. The MN Dept. of Transportation did all normal inspections and went beyond them at extra cost. They repaired all known past maintenance items, and were in process of doing current maintence. IT WAS FULLY FUNDED!

It will be important to find out why the bridge collapsed even with all the normal recommended best practices of inspection and maintenance being done, and even with the additonal cost engineering anaysis beyond normal insptection. It may be that new engineering and inspection techniques need to be developed and deployed across all similar bridges. That is a technical and engineering problem, not a political budget problem.

My current guess, as someone who has built and repaired similar bridges, including replacement of the whole roadway across the top, is that the [FULLY FUNDED] repair project screwed up somehow and caused the collapse. In some of the photos the new roadway concrete is almost completely separated from rebar, while the ajacent old lanes are still stuck together. I don't have access to any of the detail information other than news photos, but it looks mighty suspicious to me. We shall have to wait for the NTSB and others to do their investigation. Then the cause of failure can be published and lessons learned can perhaps be used to prevent similar failure of other bridges.

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You find humor in a thread which is essentially about the deaths of innocent men, women and children whose bridge fell out from under them during their evening commute.

C'mon, USMC, you know better then this. You continue to accuse those of us who do not agree with you 100 percent as somehow either unsympathetic to the deaths, or guilty of complicity and complacency in this tragedy. You keep trying to smear blood on our hands but it just isn't working. I suggest that before you accuse others of wrongful statements, that you look at your own nasty, insensitive, and abusive statements towards others.

What I honestly find sad are your constant up and down emotional outbursts. In one posting you seem rather calm (ie this morning) and indicate the possibility of a normal conversation, then in another, you succumb to your emotions and destroy any possibility of a normal conversation (ie this thread).

What I do find humorous is your statement yesterday about giving a reason for this bridge to fall down "it fell down just because it was supposed to fall down". This statement has to be taken as humorous as no sensible person would ever even consider such a statement as anything even remotely rational, logical, or reasonable. You certainly could not ever be taken seriously when making such a statement and so one of the options is to assume that you are using humor.

Are you going to continue to go back into past old postings to search for statements and other assorted out of context tidbits of information that you will attempt to throw back on me in some cheap sort of attack or will you get a attempt to get a grip on your emotions and at least try to focus on some kind of remotely intelligent conversation (as you were attempting to do earlier this morning)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I won't be "continually" going into the past. Only sufficiently to expose your carelessness with fact.

The words I wrote that you find funny are not the words you closed in quotes here and elsewhere.

What I wrote, in full context,

"Bridges do not just drop out from under us. This bridge had a history of known problems which have been documented here several times by several persons citing different sources.

All this other stuff merely serves to obscure that fact. The bridge fell because it was going to, what ever structural stresses,faults, disrepair, problems, or precise reasons for its failure is utterly and totally irrelevant except as a mental exercise for those who wish to eschew the deaths."

Yep, a real belly laugher that one.

[walter05]

Bob;

On August 10, 2007 11:31 AM, I said:

"It is not uncommon for the Federal government to have dedicated funds such as from air transport taxes, motor fuel taxes, etc. and to not spend the money. Those funds run a nice surplus that minimizes the deficits. This has been done by both Republican and Democratic administrations. This process may have also contributed to the problems."

I have never supported the idea that the failure was a conservative failure. I have repeatedly disagreed with that conclusion. When you said: "The claim of "conservative funding shortages" being a contributing factor is demonstrably false by the history of inspection and maintenance on THIS bridge." I never claimed that “conservative funding shortages” are a contributing factor.

You site figures on inspection dollars and tasks by the Minnesota Department of Transportation. I would like to read more on that and do some analysis. Would you please provide a link to a source for those figures? I would like to review them and understand them better.

I will point out that when Jesse Ventura was governor of Minnesota, there were major problems. One house of the Minnesota legislature was controlled by Republicans and one by Democrats. With an independent governor, there was very little consensus on anything. I know that budget battles were constant.

Your statement "It may turn out that generally accepted inspections normally done to every bridge are not adequate in some manner". It may also be true that due to budget constraints, political appointees at the state and federal levels have influenced the standards adversely. Therefore, the generally accepted inspections may be less than needed. If this is due to political pressure, then we the people should help to correct that problem.

Your statement: "It is disingenuous and shall we say, deliberatly false, to keep repeating that political nonsense about this bridge." Accuses me of being dishonest and lying because you disagree with my view. You may be right that I am incorrect. However, I honestly believe what I am saying. It is not a lie. To call me a liar is libelous.

I agree with you that it is important to focus on the engineering studies.

I also agree with you that it is incorrect to accuse the Republicans or the conservatives as responsible.

However, just as there must be an engineering forensic investigation, there must be a political one. We need to know the decision making process, how it affected funding and priorities, and how this may have contributed to the tragedy.

It sounds like USMC1 is convinced that conservatives are to blame. You are convinced that conservatives are innocent and it is an engineering issue. I am convinced that there are political and engineering factors that may have led to the failure of the bridge. I want us to look at all possible causes.

While USMC1 is convinced that he knows the political factors and I disagree and want an investigation. He has not called me a liar because we disagree. In fact, due to his lack of challenge of my approach, I believe he is willing to accept it as valid. He is convinced about the answers that we will find out and I am not.

[walter05]

Bob;

The link http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_222084723.html will take you to a story on Minnesota's transportation funding. It is from Pat kessler of WCCO Channel 4 in the twin cities.

He says at the end of the article: "It's still not enough and HERE'S WHY. The state's at least $1.5 billion short of what it needs for transportation projects. It's partly because the gas tax hasn't gone up and partly because we borrowed money for roads, and now we're paying it back, with interest.

Construction costs have also skyrocketed.

That's Reality Check."

I have now sited a source that says that the state of Minnesota is 1.5 BILLION dollars short of what it needs. There is no accusation that conservatives are at fault.

Here is a reasonable question to ask: "Is the State of Minnesota was 1.5 billion dollars shortage for funding of transportation a factor in the I-35 West bridge's collapse?"

I am not saying it is. However, I want to find out.

[walter05]

Bob;

The link http://kstp.com/article/stories/S162684.shtml?cat=206 is for a story on two bridges in St. Paul, Minnesota that need replacing.

Mayor Coleman said, "The Cayuga bridge, that was supposed to be replaced starting in 2004 and now isn't on the schedule. This isn't acceptable."

Therefore, I will now state that I have spent a little time checking with public media sources. I have found that the state of Minnesota has a 1.5 Billion dollar shortfall on what is needed for transportation. I have also found two other bridges needing replacement, one that should have been replaced three years ago.

I have found no source to say that neglect was a factor in the I35 W tragedy. However, I believe I have refuted the conclusion that money and neglect were not.

The evidence appears to be clear that the state of Minnesota has a major shortfall in funds for transportation. If you click play and watch the news report, you will find that the Mayor of St. Paul is very concerned about those two bridges.

Now, I will state that WCC0, Channel 4 in the twin cities says the state is 1.5 billion dollars short of funds. KSTP, Channel 5 is reporting on two other major Minnesota bridges in need of repair suffering from neglect.

I would believe that the funding short falls now appear to be major factors in the bridge collapse. This is not a conclusion yet. However, there is enough evidence from credible public sources to ask the question.

[usmc1]

Walter, just let me say these few words. It is not disagreement that I object to. Not at all.

As to what I believe, and what I know, and what conclusions I come to...well, yes there are those who, for whatever reason, require investigations and studies and testimonies in order to reach their conclusions. That's fair.

But, some of us just do not require that process and understand the factors other than the specifics of just how a bridge fell.

That bridge fell. That bridge did not have to fall. There was not enough money to go around. It is a conservative ideology to reduce taxes thereby eliminating or cutting "entitlements", "services", "regulatory" staffings, and so forth. That is a fact.

I do not need to know what specifica piece of that bridge failed to know that had it been properly inspected, repaired or replaced those poor people would not have died.

Our nation's infrastructure is in trouble because the money has not been spent on its upkeep or replacement. The money is not available due to a political motivated fiscal policy--conservatism. Not because we're a poor, fiscally-strapped emerging nation that can't afford ito take care of things.

Some of us decided that tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations were more important. Yes, that is politics and yes, from politics comes policy.

That fiscal policy has had consequences. Those who espouse or support that ideology share responsibility in those consequences.

Seems rather simple.

[walter05]

USMC1;

I am not yet ready to say that it was conservatism at fault. Money may have been diverted for a lot of less needed projects. In much of the country, convention centers, stadiums with new expensive suites, etc. have been built or expanded. If some of the money for those came at the expense of transportation that may prove to be a factor.

Since the Federal government over the last thirty years has been led by Democrats and Republicans. Since Democrats, Republicans, and a professional wrestler have led the State of Minnesota, all share in the responsibility.

In the instance of this topic, we disagree on the cause. However, I believe we enjoy the exchange of ideas. I have no complaint with you. You have not falsely accused me of anything.

I still believe we need to know more about the factors that led to that bridge falling. We need to know that to understand how to fix similar bridges. I also believe that understanding how the politicians created the environment that led to the failure is important also.

[nacktman]

True conservatism is not what we have in this nation.

Conservatism as it is in this nation IS the primary root cause of the event of the bridge collapse - No parsing, denying, obfuscating, outright lies, or shrill howls and caterwauling will change that.

It has been pointed out numerous times that it is a 'mindset' not a 'party' thing, however one particular 'party' is raising a hew and cry, bellowing that it is and it the 'other party' that is responsible not theirs, conveniently glazing over the fact that is not the case in order to accuse all others of their actions and to attempt to divert attention away from them and their ideology.

Walter, you say you are not ready to 'blame' conservatives and that is quite right, they are not to blame, the 'conservatives mindset' or 'selfishness mindset' and its resultant consequences are.

True conservatives are a dying breed, or maybe more accurately - becoming Liberals and this is due to the Fascists (aka: neo-cons/theo-cons), co-opting the 'conservative' label ... much like the Porn industry did when it began using the "X" rating for its films when at the time the "X" rating only meant that the film was for mature audiences not that it depicted any actual sexual acts ... so that 'conservatism' is now and forever linked to the misshapen and perverted hideousness we have today, just as the "X" rating is forever linked to films showing the 'horizontal mambo' in up close and graphic detail.

[Sanslines]

I do not need to know what specifica piece of that bridge failed to know that had it been properly inspected, repaired or replaced those poor people would not have died.


This kind of thinking is totally illogical. How do you know, based upon the best current proceedues and techniques, that this bridge was not inspected properly, and that those identified structural deficiencies were not clearly considered and used to establish a proper maintenance schedule for this bridge? In hindsight, we can say many things about this bridge but hindsight is not foresight. We now obviously know that something different should have been done for this bridge but since we do not yet know the specific technical reasons as to why it collapsed, we can not yet conclude that any additional inspections or more frequent maintenance schedule could have prevented this. A very simple question to ask yourself is this: How on earth can anyone prevent a problem if they don't even know that a problem exists or that the problem will cause failure? You continue to stubbornly insist that more inspections could have discovered this problem and more maintenance could have resolved this problem and you will not consider the fact that no one can as of yet conclude this.

The issues about lack of monies for other infrastructure may or may not apply to this bridge. I have pointed out some of the issues and ramifications about raising taxes and yet you continue to avoid addressing those issues other then to blame Conservative ideologies for all of the ills of this nation.

I also do not think that you have read or understood a word of what I had written concerning the tax policy differences between the states - specifically Texas and New York. What happens in your neck of the woods may or may not apply to other parts of this country. Some states take better care of their infrastructure then others and that is fact.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by nacktman:
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">This need not have happened and would not have happened had it not been for the idiocy that has plagued this nation since 1981.

I mean, come on, saying ketchup is a vegetable - how stupid are you?! The really sad part is a number of people actually believe that horsesh*t and similar fallacies.

Almost all of the ones WE elected to office (and those recently NOT elected), from then to now have chosen to ignore the infrastructure of this nation either completely as in raygun, the feather and the shrub or have it very low on the to do list as in Clinton - to name the 'nominal' "big names".

Not that it was very high the list of many previous generations either.

We have ever allowed the neglect and abuse of our nation's infrastructure until the point something akin the the collapse of the 35W bridge awakens us from our stupor, then we get off our collective arses and fix them ... and it need not be a "large" event ... the collapse of the bridge while a tragedy is not a "large" scale event but it has made us open our eyes for the moment - now if we can keep them open and focus them long enough to raise ourselves out of our funk then maybe those that lost their most precious thing ... their lives, will not be just statistics on an obscure ledger sheet in the archives tomorrow.</span>

Just a reminder of my initial post on this thread (unaltered save for colorization for emphasis), before the apologists began howling and claiming I said things I didn't say in their attempts to divert this thread and to attack any who do not follow their dogma to the letter, as they do on each and every thread they post on, and are quite uncivil about it too, all the while yelling it is the ones they attack that are the 'attackers' and they are the victims of the incivility.

Time to get real and raise ourselves out of that funk I spoke of as several here have done and will not let the apologists howl us into submission and let the status quo remain or let those who died become nothing more than an obscure entry on a obscure page in an obscure ledger lost in the bowels of some archive somewhere - reduced to a mere spot of black ink in the form of a set of numerals.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by walter05:
He says at the end of the article: "It's still not enough and HERE'S WHY. The state's at least $1.5 billion short of what it needs for transportation projects. It's partly because the gas tax hasn't gone up and partly because we borrowed money for roads, and now we're paying it back, with interest.

Construction costs have also skyrocketed.

That's Reality Check."

No, that's political opinion.

The facts are

a) the transportation budget of MN was in excess of 1 billion per year (according even to your article). That does not include federal highway funding.

b) The MN Dept of Transportatoin paid for ongoing inspection and maintenance for the I-35 and was still doing so.

Whatever "short" they were is subject of much conjecture and opinion. Usually those budget requests include a ton of new construction that they would LIKE to build. It DID NOT prevent continual and ongoing inspection and maintenance of THIS bridge.

There probably is other needed repair somewhere in MN that was postponed or delayed or could have been done sooner if they had more funding. Some other highway is probably in urgent need of repair or repaving. However there has been NO CAUSE AND EFFECT evidence that any of the budget problems, whatever they were, had any effect on THIS bridge maintenance. THIS BRIDGE was getting maintenance and repair up till the day it fell.

That is the reality check.

It is even possilbe that THIS BRIDGE got TOO MUCH maintenance and repair and if left well enough alone would be still standing. We don't know yet if the ongoing maintenance and repair caused or contributed to the failure.

Blessings

Bob

[nacktman]

Don't you just love it when those out of touch with reality howl about reality?!
Parsification (to coin a new term meaning to Parse, aka: lie by omission), obfuscation and all the other feeble and failed 'weapons' in the Ideologues arsenal are just sad.
http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rofl5.gif

[nimrod]

Originally posted by Sanslines:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was still a personal attack.

If you honestly believe that his behavior is normal and that others are wrong to object to and defend themselves, then you will see anything that anyone says against Nacktman as a personal attack. Yes, I have also noticed that you don't seem to care to discuss or elaborate upon Nacktman's or USMC's abuses other then as a secondary reference after initially pointing out Bobx and Sanslines 'abuses'. If you want to 'play ref', you then need to be fair and unbiased towards all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you feel better if I used Nacktman's and usmc1's names first? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/annoyed.gif If you care to notice in the post I specifically mentioned some of the words that they have used as personal attacks, usmc1 even corrected me on one in a post. If that is not elaborate enough for you I could go over every post of theirs on this thread and point out every personal attack word for word, I will not, but I could. In my original post I used one instance for each of the four that I either named or refered to, I thought that was enough to demenstrate my point. If it were not for your denials I would not have had to elaborate on your personal attack on Nacktman. I was just pointing out that they are not the only ones who have used personal attacks on this thread. It is good to defend yourself against such attacks, but launching into your own personal attacks is not defending yourself.

I do not care to read anyone attacking anyone else on this forum, and there are times I wonder why I bothered to come back to them at all. I did because I enjoy the discourse and the exchange of ideas, but there are times I question my own sanity. I should not feel the need to go off topic to discus who called who what and how their feelings were hurt and that is why they lashed back so that the person who hurt their feelings would be hurt too. This is the behaviour of 5 year olds not grown adults. If anyone thinks that is a personal attack, sorry, but it is meant as a broad statement to all who engage in that behaviour.

[nacktman]

nimrod, thanks for your efforts, though I do not feel it will do much good.

If you would reference my post I posted at 7:13pm, above where I reiterated my original post on this thread verbatim you will see nothing that was an 'attack' on anyone or any group save an indictment of WE AMERICANS as a whole yet immediately the howling began.

It is simply the case of a few Ideologues not wanting any differing from their dogma and since a certain lady was ousted from these forums they have focused on myself and a few others - attacking us and reviling us on any thread we post on. It does not matter what we post they begin with the attacks ad nauseum.
If we say the sky is blue they yell that it is green and accuse us of 'attacking' them. It is a tiresome pattern. They divert too many topics doing this and have some innocent new posters fooled into believing they are the 'victims' of incivility, accusations, distortions, denigrations, out right lies and worse when the exact opposite is true. Also, they do not like it when we stand up to them they just get worse - this thread is a case in point.

[Sanslines]

Nimrod,

Both you and another poster have focused primarily on Bobx and myself, with a secondary and passing comment about Nacktman et al to cover the base.

You said:

"MoonShadow, explain to me how calling a poster insane is not a personal attack. Sanslines devoted a whole post to Nacktmans "appearent" insanity. And a Bobx23456 post refered to ucmc1's posts as insane repetition. Not that they are not guilty themselves; troll, blathering, ninnering, etc."

Since day one, why have you and the other poster remained silent when Nacktman continues to abuse other posters? Why have you remained silent when other posters who poster differing opinions were driven off this forum?

We obviously have a very different opinion of how to handle this situation. I have not remained silent this time around and I do think that this is what bothers you and the other poster. I also do not know why you have not answered any of the questions that I have posted to you concerning Nacktman's behavior. I also do not know why you have remained so silent from thread to thread after witnessing Nacktman et al continue to abuse others.

Here is a simple analogy to clearly explain this situation:

Your next door neighbor is blasting loud music night after night at 2:00 AM and is doing this just to annoy the other neighbors. During the course of two weeks, you and other neighbors remain silent about this behavior. Then your next door neighbor on the other side of you speaks out and takes the loud neighbor to task for his noise abuses. At this point, you then take the complaining neighbor to task for his approach to dealing with the noise problem. The neighbor that you are now complaining about asks you why you have remained silent when the noise generating neighbor was abusing others with his noise. Your only answer is a comment in passing 'well that noisy neighbor is guilty of making some noise'.

If you wish to continue to remain silent while Nacktman abuses any poster that does not agree with him 100 percent to the point that they say "scr*w this lousy forum" and then quit, then that is your choice. You mention something about enjoying the discourse and exchange of ideas. Well guess what, as one poster after another is driven from this forum, this forum will no longer have any exchange of ideas. This forum continues to become a Nacktman dominated blog where only his ideas will be expressed. If this is what you want, then continue to remain silent when Nacktman abuses others and point out when other speak out against this.

I do not know your reasons for remaining silent for so long about Nacktman and then now, all of a sudden, taking others to task for their comments. However, I have said it before and I will say it again now : If you really want to play ref then you MUST be fair and objective to all. Ignoring a long list of abuses by the wolf pack and selecting Bobx and Sanslines to criticize is hardly being fair and objective.

You and I may never see eye to eye on this issue. When I receive emails and witness posters leave this forum due to a plan of continued abuse by the wolfpack, I finally decided to say enough is enough and to speak out. Up until this point, you chose to remain silent and then decided to focus upon Bobx and Sanslines as your primary topics of discussion. The wolfpack has now received a small taste of their own medicine and they certainly do not like it. The amazing thing is that you notice this medicine but have ignored the long history of Nacktman's et al abuses. You don't agree with the way that I reply to the wolfpack- fine, that is your choice. However, I do not agree with your long and continued silence during the reign of Nacktman's abuses. We also clearly do not agree on what is considered a personal attack on my behalf. You absolutely do not have the history, understanding and background facts between Nacktman and myself to make such allegations with such certainty. In a nutshell, this is where it all stands and there is really nothing more to discuss about it.

P.S. To a certain lady, and she knows who she is, I am sorry to see you leave this forum now, but I certainly do understand the reasons behind it. Congrads on driving another woman off the forum, Nacktman. You can go out and celebrate now.

[Sanslines]

The facts are

a) the transportation budget of MN was in excess of 1 billion per year (according even to your article). That does not include federal highway funding.

b) The MN Dept of Transportation paid for ongoing inspection and maintenance for the I-35 and was still doing so.

Whatever "short" they were is subject of much conjecture and opinion. Usually those budget requests include a ton of new construction that they would LIKE to build. It DID NOT prevent continual and ongoing inspection and maintenance of THIS bridge.

There probably is other needed repair somewhere in MN that was postponed or delayed or could have been done sooner if they had more funding. Some other highway is probably in urgent need of repair or repaving. However there has been NO CAUSE AND EFFECT evidence that any of the budget problems, whatever they were, had any effect on THIS bridge maintenance. THIS BRIDGE was getting maintenance and repair up till the day it fell.

That is the reality check.

It is even possilbe that THIS BRIDGE got TOO MUCH maintenance and repair and if left well enough alone would be still standing. We don't know yet if the ongoing maintenance and repair caused or contributed to the failure


Yes, these are the facts as we know them today.

[usmc1]

Well there are facts and then there are facts:

Fact: The I-35W bridge was classified as "structurally deficient" by state bridge inspectors for at least 17 years.

Fact: The conservative Republican Governor of Minnesota vetoed money which would have gone into the funds which could have been used to render that bridge safe or else replace it.

Fact: A couple of days worth of the billions being sunk into Occupation of Iraq would have been more than sufficient to cover the cost.

Fact: Had that, known to be dangerous, bridge been made safe, or closed, or repaired this sweet baby girl and her five-month pregnant mother would not have died along with the others when the bridge dropped out from under them.

I guess conservatives would count that as three deaths, since they regard 5-month fetuses as babies!

[Sanslines]

Fact: No one in this forum has said that this is not a tragedy or that innocent people did not die in a very sad event. Disagreements in this thread do not mean that anyone does not understand that innocent people were killed and for anyone to state that, just because they offer differing opinions, they have the 'blood of complaciency and complicity on their hands' is wrong.

Fact: To state that a bridge is structually deficient does not mean much, as it has been said over and over again that there is a very wide range of classifications of structural deficiencies.

Fact: To conclude at this point in time that this bridge was knowingly negelected to the point where individuals knew that this bridge would collapse and kill innocent people is wrong. This has yet to be proven and it is wrong to accuse individuals of the deaths of those people based upon assumptions and hypotheses.

Fact: It has not been finally concluded what the actual technical reasons for why this bridge collapsed. Until this is finalized, no one can state that the collapse of this bridge could have been prevented. It is also being assumed that the identified structural deficiencies caused this collapse and could therefore have been prevented with more inspections and maintenance. Until this is proven by the facts, this will remain a hypothesis.

We have beaten this thread to death many times over and have constantly repeated the same points over and over again.

[Naturist Mark]

12 pages of obfuscation.

It has been known that the bridge in question was a problem since 1990.

Other projects always seemed more urgent than that bridge. It only received the same surface repaving that all roadways get, no money for structural remediation was ever approved.

It was left in service because of a bet that it wouldn't present an undue danger to the public until they got around to repair or replacement.

They lost the bet.

Good public servants had a job to do but not the resources to do it - so they had to make bets on what was most urgent. They bet wrong. People died. That is the tragedy.

Claiming that we can come to no useful conclusions about the event until we know the exact mechanical mode of the structural failure is like saying we can't mourn the innocent victims until we know whether their death was due to crushing or drowning.

[Sanslines]

It has been known that the bridge in question was a problem since 1990.

What were the exact and specific problems with this bridge? Which of these problems were clearly understood a priori to cause the collapse of this bridge?

You are continuing to imply that this bridge would collapse due to clearly identified problems, and that these identified problems were of such a magnitude that it was clearly understood that it was only a matter of time before this particular bridge would collapse, and that bridge inspectors and bridge maintenance personal were all aware of this but were victims of a deliberate lack of government funding to repair the specific (bridge collapse causing) problems. None of this has been proven and all of this is pure conjecture at this time. How can you even conclude that the bridge inspectors and maintenance personel were 'good public servants'? Do you have any factual information to prove or to disprove this? Do any of us even know these 'good public servants' personally and what their backgrounds are and if they really are good or not?

Do you have any specific factual information from verified sources that either the bridge inspections were shoddy or that the maintenance was shoddy or inadequate due to a specific lack of government funds? Do you have an specific factual information that state inspection engineers and maintenance personel knew up front that certain clearly identified problems would cause this particular collapse?

I do think that you may be trying to apply from a global perspective certain problems that may or may not be applicable to this problem. It is like saying that a certain specific bridge collapsed in Iowa due to a known problem that was clearly identified by inspections or could have been identified by inspections and the clearly needed and identified maintenance was deferred due to lack of government funds and that this particular collapse is applicable to all bridges in the USA.


......is like saying we can't mourn the innocent victims until we know whether their death was due to crushing or drowning.

We all are mourning the victims for we know that they are deceased regardless of the specific causes of bridge collapse. However, determining the exact causes of this bridge collapse is an entirely separate thing. We can not bring the deceased back with this knowledge but we can make sure that such a tragedy never happens again and prevent future deaths. These are two very distinct and separate issues.

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
12 pages of obfuscation.

It has been known that the bridge in question was a problem since 1990.

Other projects always seemed more urgent than that bridge. It only received the same surface repaving that all roadways get, no money for structural remediation was ever approved.

It was left in service because of a bet that it wouldn't present an undue danger to the public until they got around to repair or replacement.

They lost the bet.

Good public servants had a job to do but not the resources to do it - so they had to make bets on what was most urgent. They bet wrong. People died. That is the tragedy.

Claiming that we can come to no useful conclusions about the event until we know the exact mechanical mode of the structural failure is like saying we can't mourn the innocent victims until we know whether their death was due to crushing or drowning.

[nacktman]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
12 pages of obfuscation.

It has been known that the bridge in question was a problem since 1990.

Other projects always seemed more urgent than that bridge. It only received the same surface repaving that all roadways get, no money for structural remediation was ever approved.

It was left in service because of a bet that it wouldn't present an undue danger to the public until they got around to repair or replacement.

They lost the bet.

Good public servants had a job to do but not the resources to do it - so they had to make bets on what was most urgent. They bet wrong. People died. That is the tragedy.

Claiming that we can come to no useful conclusions about the event until we know the exact mechanical mode of the structural failure is like saying we can't mourn the innocent victims until we know whether their death was due to crushing or drowning.

Hear, hear! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[nacktman]

Originally posted by nacktman:

If you would reference my post I posted at 7:13pm, yesterday, where I reiterated my original post on this thread verbatim you will see nothing that was an 'attack' on anyone or any group save an indictment of WE AMERICANS as a whole - yet immediately the howling began.

It is simply the case of a few Ideologues not wanting any differing from their dogma and since a certain lady was ousted from these forums they have focused on myself and a few others - attacking us and reviling us on any thread we post on. It does not matter what we post they begin with the attacks ad nauseum.
If we say the sky is blue they yell that it is green and accuse us of 'attacking' them. It is a tiresome pattern. They divert too many topics doing this and have some innocent new posters fooled into believing they are the 'victims' of incivility, accusations, distortions, denigrations, out right lies and worse when the exact opposite is true. Also, they do not like it when we stand up to them they just get worse - this thread is a case in point.

This thread was about expressing condolences and sympathies for the families of those who lost their loved ones in the collapse of the I-35W bridge.

It has been perverted into a series of shrill rantings and ravings from two "conservative" posters who have successfully diverted it into a morass of offal they seem to thrive in and want all to suffer with them.

Ignoring reality has ever been their strongest suit and here it is shown stark against the glaring light of the truth and the callousness in which they disregard the loss of life to parse and obfuscate all to further their agenda is abominable.
Making something political when it was not and accusing all others of making it political - they should be ashamed, however shame is evidently not something they comprehend.
They are still trying to claim they are the "victims" here when all can see otherwise ... especially those who are actually true conservatives, if the e-mails and PM's I have received are correct.

The FACT is this thread has been 'hijacked' by those Ideologue Apologists as they have 'hijacked' so many others, particularly if the topic and/or direction of discussion points the spotlight on their ideology - and when it does it isn't pretty.

My condolences and sympathy go to the families who lost their loved ones.

I do not want to extend my condolences and sympathies to other families, but let the Ideologues have their way and the status quo remains, I will have to.

[walter05]

Sanslines;

You said, "Do you have any specific factual information from verified sources that either the bridge inspections were shoddy or that the maintenance was shoddy or inadequate due to a specific lack of government funds?"

I agree that evidence presented should be from verified sources. I also believe that links to those sources should be provided so readers of this topic can review the evidence presented.

On August 10, 2007 at 03:25 PM, I asked Bob, "You site figures on inspection dollars and tasks by the Minnesota Department of Transportation. I would like to read more on that and do some analysis. Would you please provide a link to a source for those figures? I would like to review them and understand them better."

At this time he is quoting figures. On August 11, 2007, 08:00 AM you quoted Bob's figures.

Neither of you have provided any external sources that can be reviewed and verified.

I have provided reports from two twin cities television stations. I have provided links so anyone can see the stories for themselves and make up their minds.

I would ask both of you to please provide, as Sanslines stated the standard, verified sources. Until you have provided verified sources, there is no verified evidence that the money was adequate and that the maintenance was adequate.

I have provided verified external sources, including the mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota who provided evidence to support the possibility that the money and maintenance of transportation infrastructure in Minnesota is under funded and projects and not being done. This raises the possibility that if this is a systemic failure, it could have been a factor in the I-35 W bridge failure.

Sanslines;

Also as the other poster as you put it, I want to make a point. I am learning that unless I agree with you, I have to be on the other side in your mind.

In this case, and for this topic, I have disagreed with you and Nacktman. However, I am finding the insolence and abuse from you towards me to be annoying. I am not experiencing anything more than argument from Nacktman.

Nacktman;

Even if the funding was not adequate, I am not ready to blame conservatism. I am not ready to blame the new conservatism. There may be other reasons why state and federal governments did not correctly fund transportation in Minnesota.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by walter05:
On August 10, 2007 at 03:25 PM, I asked Bob, "You site figures on inspection dollars and tasks by the Minnesota Department of Transportation. I would like to read more on that and do some analysis. Would you please provide a link to a source for those figures? I would like to review them and understand them better."

No, walter, Bob hasn't alleged any particular spending amounts. One time Bob commented on your figutres. Neither of us has any way of knowing whether some particular dollar amount or budget amount for the MN Dept. of Transportaiton is low, high, or just right.

What Bob has focused on, which you have deliberatly ignored, is the actual inspections, reported deficiencies and repair work that had been done on this bridge. Whether it cost $10 or $10 million is not known and irrelevent. What is releveant is whether or not all known structural defects were quickly repaired for whatever reasonable cost. Your deliberate and continual diverstion to irrelevant statewide budget numbers is disingenuous at best.

The facts (citing references previously) show that identified structural defects in the 1990s WERE REPAIRED in the 1990s. knockmen's stupid repetition that the bridge was declared "structuraly deficient" in 1990 deliberatly ignores that the identified defects were rapidly repaired when they were found.

You have never provided a shred of logic that shows how your mythical budget politics at the state government had any negative outcome on maintenance of this bridge. You have cited news stories about budget disagreements between the Governor and the legislature over how much money to spend STATEWIDE on all transportation, but you have provide NO, NONE, NADA references about THIS BRIDGE.

It is a demonstratable fact that identified repairs were being done, and had been done, when inspections and even extra cost engineering analysis identified needed repair on THIS bridge. Other than "stonewall" obfuscation you and your friend knockmen do nothing but repeat irrelevant twaddle unrelated to the conditoin of THIS bridge. We are having no discussion. A "stonewall" is not a discussion.

Until you, walter, are willing to discuss something, anything, relevant to THIS bridge instead of irrelevant political posturing we are having no conversation.

Blessings

Bob

[walter05]

Bob;

I will make this short and clear. Please provide a link to a verified public source that can be used to validate your assertions about the maintenance history on the I-35 W bridge.

If you will do so, then I, as well as anyone else seeing the link can review the information. Once validated, your argument could prove quite strong.

I have searched through 13 pages of posts. I have not found one link to an external source that I can review for any of the figures that you site. Please provide at least one.

Sanslines made a good point about the need for verified external sources. Whether you, Nactman, USMC1, or anyone else, we should all be able to provide those sources. This enables others to review the source material.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by walter05:
Bob;

I will make this short and clear. Please provide a link to a verified public source that can be used to validate your assertions about the maintenance history on the I-35 W bridge.

If you will do so, then I, as well as anyone else seeing the link can review the information. Once validated, your argument could prove quite strong.

I have searched through 13 pages of posts. I have not found one link to an external source that I can review for any of the figures that you site. Please provide at least one.

Sanslines made a good point about the need for verified external sources. Whether you, Nactman, USMC1, or anyone else, we should all be able to provide those sources. This enables others to review the source material.


Walter, I looked up and posted links days ago. If you weren't so busy kissing nactman's rear and repeatating, repeating, repeating, nonsense about left vs. right disagreements about next year's state wide maintenance budgets you would have read them. I'm not going to look up and post all that again. Go read the previous posts.

And BTW, counting blades of grass in left field may keep you happy, but it has very little bearing on the play at first. Your blathering about state budget numbers is as relevnat as the number of blades of grass in left field.

Extensive bridge maintenace was being done and ongoing during the colapse as anyone who read the news articles ought to be aware. Deal with it.

Blessings
Bob

[usmc1]

Walter, it is unlikely in the extreme that your challenge will be met. Simply because that "verifiable" data is non-existent.

But, since you seem to very serious and quite earnest in your quest, heres an excellent link, with footnotes and sources listed, which affirms what I and others here have asserted and have actually proven several times over, funding for infrastructure and services started to decline with Reagan, picked up a bit with Clinton, and have gone into a tailspin under Bush II.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corporations/Parasitic_War_Profiteering.html

If this site is too leftish for you, go to the OMB and do your own research on the history of non-military vs military spending as a percentage of the GNP. That would affirm what i have written earlier and assert once again.

Regardless, the history and truth is that funding for infrastructure and tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations began under Reagan and have been supercharged under Bush.

I do not believe it will take a hours of research to come to the very reasonable conclusion that falling bridges, and a child dying from lack of available dental care, are consequences of those policies. It is conservatives that espouse those polices, not literals.

So, intended or not, conservatives share the responsibility and are accountable for the consequences of their beliefs and votes.

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
Extensive bridge maintenace was being done and ongoing during the colapse as anyone who read the news articles ought to be aware. Deal with it.
The people studying this collapse will need to determine if the methods they use for inspection are adequate and whether anything was done wrong during the work that was in progress. They also need to decide if the frequency of inspections is adequate.

These things are needed in order to determine if inspection procedures need to be modified and whether there were any issues due to the repairs.

Government allocation of funds to properly maintain things should be a priority. The disruption that occurs when a major bridge is lost has to be costing the area a lot of money and time. Failure to do the right kind of maintenance or replacement costs more money than if it was done when it is first needed.

The families in this tragedy are also going to suffer emotionally and financially from this. We may argue about the specifics of this situation, but the key thing to me is that everything possible should be done to reduce the chances of this happening again somewhere else.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by MJ_KC:
The families in this tragedy are also going to suffer emotionally and financially from this. We may argue about the specifics of this situation, but the key thing to me is that everything possible should be done to reduce the chances of this happening again somewhere else.

Yes, everyone agrees that it was a tragedy for those who lost their lives and for their families. We all probably agree that sufficient steps should be done to prevent similar bridge failures in future.

The real problem comes with trying to figure out what needs to be done. The I-35W bridge had a history of maintenance done and ongoing repairs which those responsible for the bridge believed was everything possible to prevent disaster. They went the unusual extra step to hire a university study of the bridge, and were engaged in addressing all identified needed maintenance when it collapsed.

It calls into question all the current inspection and maintenance practices world wide. Until we learn what caused this particular failure we don't know what else can be done or should be done to prevent future similar failures. We agree that something should have been done, but we have no clue what it might have been.

Blessings
Bob

[Naturist Mark]

The people studying this collapse will need to determine if the methods they use for inspection are adequate and whether anything was done wrong during the work that was in progress. They also need to decide if the frequency of inspections is adequate.
They had already identified problems, and since they couldn't push the priority high enough to fix the problems they doubled the inspections. They could have tripled or quadrupled the inspections, but that wouldn't have amounted to anything if no action resulted.

Their response to finding problems during inspections was to inspect more often and to cross their fingers.

People who fault the inspections for not accurately predicting the manner and time of failure are being unreasonable. The inspectors KNEW there were problems, they REPORTED those problems. But the people who have to decide how to act on those reports were in an untenable position. They didn't have the resources to respond properly to all the demands on their system, So they had to place bets on what problems were most serious and which could be put off. In the main they were excellent gamblers, but they couldn't win every bet.