Are only Caucasians nudists? [Archive]

naked bob

03-15-2002, 07:08 PM

SirronD
I have always wondered what the deal is about this. Is it trurely a cultural thing? I have been to most if not all of the nudist venues in southern California, a fairly culturally diverse part of the U.S. In that time I have only seen a few black people and only one black couple. I have seen one or two asian couples and a couple of hispanic ancestry of course I am making assumptions based on my observations, striking up conversations with strangers in the nude is often easily misinterpreted.

I wonder why black families and couples and even black women are so poorly represented? My limited experience with the black friends that I have is that they are very gregarious outgoing friendly and highly social. So what is the deal?

I believe one of the greatest strengths of our country is our diversity. Imagine how much more acceptance we would have with a little more ethnic diversity.

SirronD

03-16-2002, 05:03 AM

I believe that mountian man's hypothysis is correct. It has to do with religious and cultural values.

Many of the Africans who were captured and brought to the Americas (and survived the middle passage) had tribal customs where nudity was the normal practice. However, nudity was absolutely forbidden by the puritan practice of Christianity in the Americas. Slaves who removed their clothing were beaten (and killed). Additionally slaves were forbidden to speak in their native languages. Writing was forbidden. And all religous practices other than this puritanical version of Christianity were forbidden. It only took a single generation for the entire cultural history of the Africans (including customs of dress - or undress) to be completly lost to the slaves. Absent their own culture and customs, there was only the "Puritan" American Christianity to fill the void. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The taboo against nudity is the first lesson taught by Christian and Islamic missionaries to any "Tribal" conquest. Africans, the Indigenous Americans, the Indegenous of the various Pacific Islands all learned this taboo first. And it was taught that nudity equals savagery and ignorance, without exception. The civil and intellegent wear clothes.

I do not speak for all Black Americans, but only for myself. But this is what I believe based on what I have studied and learned.

For me, naturism is a way to connect with my distant ancestors, and my past (past, past) culture.

And I love the feeling of the sun on my skin. It is how it should be. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

David77

03-17-2002, 04:42 AM

SirronD,
Thank you for your great post on 3-16-02.
Some "whites" want a darker tone to their (beige) skin, so they get a deep tan from the sun (or purchase some "tan-in-a-bottle"). Some "blacks" want a lighter tone to their skin, so purchase, at Walgreens Drug Stores, some skin lightener cream - and STAY OUT OF THE SUN. Do you think that this latter has anything to do with keeping African Americans from enjoying the sun at naturist resorts?

On our vacation, a woman friend, who was African American, was in our small group at Acapulco and she was very particular in avoiding the sun as she stated that she was avoiding getting a dark tan.

(Of course, proper sun screan can control, for ALL of us, the amount of tanning and skin cancer).

SirronD

03-17-2002, 06:30 AM

This (staying out of the sun to keep from becomming dark) is not unique to Black Americans. It is such a problem in some African countries that the skin bleach products (the ones available at Walgreens here) have been outlawed (the products are very dangerous with prolonged use). It is also an issue with South Asians (with an entire color based caste system still in place in India!!), people from the Pacific Islands, people from South and Central America... Basically anywhere, where the darker people are marginalized, to the benifit of lighter people.

Watch any typical movie or TV program (worldwide). The handsome guy will 98% of the time be White. The beautiful girl will 98% of the time be White. Only when a program is targeted to an specific audience will there be a non white character that is specifically signified as being handsome or beautiful. (I ABSOLUTELY am NOT saying the Whites are not beautiful, but rather that the rest of us are also beautiful).

So while growing up and watching TV "everybody" beautiful is white. And remember that this was also what your parents and grandparents saw.

Unfortunately, many dark people (of various races) believe that lighter is more appealing. Even worse is that they continue to teach that ligher is more appealing (even to showing favoritism to lighter children).

Old style IQ tests for children previously asked the question: "Which is the most beautiful?" This was a multiple choice question, with two images to select your answer. One image was the face of a thin white woman. The other image was the face of a larger dark woman. The "correct" answer was the thin white woman. Anyone who found the larger dark woman as more beautiful was marked as less intellegent.

Note: there is also size as well as color/race discrimination.

But this issue (not wanting to get dark) does not keep people (in general) from enjoying naturism specifically. But rather from any contact with the sun (including textile beaches). Specifically, they (those who don't want to get dark) don't want their faces and arms (as that is all that is exposed in the clothed world) to get dark.

So indoor activities durring the day become the norm! And you only go out at night.

One thing I appreciate about Naturism is the teaching of body acceptance. Color is a part of my body. When I go into the sun, I get darker. This is natural. This is my body, doing what it was designed to do. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

David77

03-17-2002, 09:53 AM

SirronD,
Thank you for your reply to my question. I was especially moved by your last paragraph about body acceptance in naturism (which, hopefully, we all strive for).

BigTim

04-07-2003, 02:49 PM

I was just looking at some older postings and noticed this topic.

I just thought I'd mention that at Haulover Beach where we frequently go, there are many people of all different colors, which is a good representation of the diversity of South Florida.

Actually, the "mother" of Haulover Beach, in other words the woman who pushed for the creation of the clothing optional section and who continues to lead the movement both locally, statewide, and nationwide is African-American.

florida-david

04-07-2003, 07:16 PM

i think most american nudists are white folk, but than again, it would seem to me that most of the american population looks white. the truth is, its hard to tell who's actually white any more as society is loosing its prejudice and becoming more mixed. my wife is korean, my two boys are 1/8 swiss, 1/4 german, 1/4 other, and 1/2 korean. my daughter (adopted) is 100% korean.

the population of miami is varied. this was not the case when i was growing up in ft. lauderdale. i love the mix, its good for everyone. so come no matter what your mix.

stevenf64

04-07-2003, 08:01 PM

florida david did you know that your boys are over 100% haha /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Scoop

04-07-2003, 08:03 PM

Well I've gone to nude beaches in New Jersey and New York and I definitely saw more minority folk there, but I don't think those people are going to clubs. Maybe some sort of outreach is necessary?

Qwertie

04-08-2003, 12:22 AM

florida david did you know that your boys are over 100% haha /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif [/QUOTE]

Be all that you can be! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sailorman72

04-08-2003, 01:11 AM

A few years ago the wife and I spent a week at a CO resort in the Dominican Republic and met a black couple from Chicago. They were the first black naturists I had ever met. I have seen a few hispanics and asians, but not many. During our recent trip to Australia, the manager of the resort said that he found the number of Japanese naturists was really growing.

We live in Singapore for the time being and we see as much skin whitening cream as we do suntan lotion. I just wish there was a naturist venue in Singapore.

eric731

04-08-2003, 03:50 AM

This is issue I find very important! This issue, I believe, is the greatest hinderance to more of the general population accepting this lifestyle...that is there are too many "white boys". If the national organizations, could steer away from advertising the lifestyle with just "white" models and get a more diverse model base, more people in general would accept this lifestyle. Not all the pictures have to be shot in the sun, some could be shot indoors enjoying the lifestyle. Maybe a "before" and "after" shot would be good, so the general public can see the different importance nudity makes when clothes are taken off when it comes to sex, race, religion, creed, and socioeconomic stature. People will see that we are alike when we are nude. People will see that no matter the color, sex, or money in their pocket that they can enjoy the lifestyle as well. With more diverse pictures, more acceptance of the lifestyle will come.

Croydon

04-08-2003, 05:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eric731:
If the national organizations, could steer away from advertising the lifestyle with just "white" models and get a more diverse model base, more people in general would accept this lifestyle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Although, your comment means well but it is quite false. One cannot change an ingrained cultural value/practice by simply advertising naturism showing more minorities. In the case of African Americans, there are too many issues that deters African Americans away from naturism. That being said, advertisement is almost useless. For example, many African Americans have battles between light skin and dark skin. As one member stated, light skin is something that is preferred by many. This issue alone does not make naturism. As a black male, I do not stay in the sun when I go to nude beaches. I stay in the shade to avoid darkening my skin. If you attend beaches/clubs and see a black person, most likely they stay away from the sun.

These days, many African Americans and other minorities, especially women, are going through hauls to make themselves look more white. Society, especially the media, makes it clear that white is beautiful and anything else isn't. I can recall when I was younger begging my mom to help me lighten my skin and make my hair silky soft like white people. Today, plastic surgery among African Americans is on the rise; small more narrow nose, small lips, lighter skin. I have traveled extensively throughout Europe and I must say, in many western european nations, things tend to be different. Many Europeans find non-white people beautiful. In France, Germany, Italy for example, black is beautiful. Many Europeans find their beauty quite exotic. I am not sure why there is such difference b/w U.S. and Europe.

missouriboy

04-08-2003, 06:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eric731:
...If the national organizations, could steer away from advertising the lifestyle with just "white" models and get a more diverse model base, more people in general would accept this lifestyle... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What "organizations" are you referring to? The only ones I'm familiar with seem to use no models, just nudists, whatever color they may be. The fact that most of them are white only reflects reality, which was the original subject of this thread.

nudeM

04-08-2003, 06:13 AM

I can't, for the life of me, think of the web site, that was solely devoted to the miniority population. It was a great site, that if I remember right, was headquarted in Texas. Anybody out there know of the site. I searched it, but it was some time ago, and as I remember, it was great site with plenty of information. I'll try to find it again and get back with the info, unless someone else finds it before me. Thanks

Gary Naturist

04-08-2003, 08:38 AM

Consistent with what BigTim said, when I was at Haulover recently, there were some blacks and latinos enjoying the beach and the sun in a clothesfree state.

Also, there is quite a racial mix at Little Beach in Hawaii, which corresponds nicely to the diverse racial mix of the residents of the state.

However, based on my experience, these locations are exceptions.

Gary

Croydon

04-08-2003, 08:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nudeM:
I can't, for the life of me, think of the web site, that was solely devoted to the miniority population. It was a great site, that if I remember right, was headquarted in Texas. Anybody out there know of the site. I searched it, but it was some time ago, and as I remember, it was great site with plenty of information. I'll try to find it again and get back with the info, unless someone else finds it before me. Thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NudeM, you are referring to the Bare Souls Nudist group in Ft. Worth TX. There website is http://www.baresoulnudist.com/

eric731

04-08-2003, 10:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croydon:
Although, your comment means well but it is quite false. One cannot change an ingrained cultural value/practice by simply advertising naturism showing more minorities. [/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I beg to differ. Why do you like Coke or Pepsi rather than RC Cola? Why do you like GAP, rather than Kmart clothes? It is all because of superior marketing that allowed for more people to like one thing rather than another. Advertising doesn't guarantee success. But no advertising will guarantee failure. And since this string started with the assumption that the man only sees "White People" advertised on nudist media, that simply means that this lifestyle will appeal to white people better. And since there is no or very little advertising for minorities than just like i said there should be no wonder why there is failure in the interest of minorities to join this lifestyle. Minorities do not see anyone else enjoying this lifestyle. So why should they join in? How many people do you know will stand up and be an individual? Not many! Many just go with the flow! No marketing means failure.

Oh and kudos to the writer that posted that website for the club in TX that caters to all races and advertises other races as nudists!! That is what I am talking about...if one advertises more diversity in race, color, sex, and socioeconomic level, than the lifestyle will appeal to more people and more will enjoy this lifestyle. More appeal, means it will be better for all!

gamblefish

04-08-2003, 11:12 AM

Yeah, I think eric is right. No matter how independent we may think we are, there is strength in numbers. I can connect with the pictures of white folks in the photos of freedom more than with the black folks. Doesn't mean I don't like the pics of black folks, I just don't connect as much with them. So, more pics of black folks would be beneficial to other black folks wanting to know that there are alot of other black folks who are nudists.

Does any of that make sense to anybody?

FishNude

04-08-2003, 01:39 PM

Let me begin by saying, I am a minority. I have been going to public nude beaches for 20 yrs now. And from what I have read here so far, I only add coal to the fire. I see Blacks, Mexicans and Asians at the public nude beaches, and still VERY FEW at that. Yet, at a private resort you see NONE. I am the only one 100% of the times. I have never beem discriminated against, I made the reservations on the phone. Upon arrival all was good everytime. Nudists are good people, they will welcome all.

Bert

AussieBeachBoy

04-08-2003, 05:02 PM

Many of the nude beaches around Sydney are almost exclusively white, but there are a couple where you see a few asian and middle-eastern people.

Nate Dekan

04-08-2003, 06:28 PM

Unfortunately besides the issues correctly and excellently addressed by SirronD and others, I think there is another reason more minorities (by birth) aren't nudists that I haven't seen addressed here yet.

Nudists are themselves a minority (but one of a chosen lifestyle, not birth) and like other minorities we are often joked about, some have lost jobs, "friends", been disfellowshipped by churches, had problems with family (been there done that), etc. simply because they are nudists. How many nudists openly and enthusiastically talk about this lifestyle, say like people talk about playing in a local baseball or bowling league, acting in a local theater, or being vegetarian? (Also chosen lifestyles) Be honest most nudists aren't very open about it around others who aren't nudists, why? Because of how they feel others regard nudity and what others may say about it. (One BIG advantage of a lifestyle minority over a birth minority is it's easy to hide.)

NOW, I'm in NO WAY saying that any "prejudice" we experience as nudists is in ANY WAY comparable to the totally unjust, sick, and wrong prejudice people who are minorities by birth experience. While I don't like or agree with it I can understand someone ill treating others bacause of differences in morality, but because of difference in skin color? NO WAY, that's just flat out wrong and evil!

Think about it, some minorities by birth do choose other minority lifestyles but those usually involve very deeply held personal faith, values, morals, or convictions, face it, for most nudists it is a "recreational" lifestyle and not much more. So, how many people who are minorities by birth are going to choose a minority "recreational" lifestyle that is not accepted by the majority, is openly condemned as wrong by many, and where they may encounter yet more ill treatment, including from those in their own minority community? Would you in their place?

Part of the problem I see in nudism is that most people see it as just a recreational lifestyle and not as something about deeper issues of faith, values, morals, or convictions (such as the harm body shame causes and the importance how people feel about the human body which is so very basic to all of us) I think that most nudists not treating it as something more important than recreation is why people aren't more open about it and why it isn't accepted more, but that's another subject.

Nate

nudeM

04-08-2003, 07:54 PM

Thanks Croydon, that is the site I was referring to. It was mentioned by zebracpl (user name?) some time back. The issue came up about the same subject also, so this web site was mentioned. What is particular interesting is that this group caters to the minority, but it is open to all.

Naturist Mark

04-08-2003, 08:09 PM

Why the under-representation of minorities in nudism? I'll take the word of the previous posters in this list that there really is an under-representation, even though I've met many black, hispanic and asian nudists.

Many people work, learn and even live in integrated environs, yet their social circles tend to be made of people of backgrounds similar to their own. Your closest social encounters are with family, who are just like you. Next is your extended community, which is often composed of more distant relations and their co-relations, and those with religious and cultural connections to you. Even when you move far away you tend to gravitate towards the familiar. It isn't surprising that even the most open and unbiased people have social networks that are composed largely of people with similar backgrounds.

As nudists we are a minority, and as such we tend to hang with other nudists. We are socially attracted to people like ourselves.

Minority nudists may not see people like themselves when they look at organized nudism, so they may tend to look elsewhere.

While that may be true, I think it is rapidly becoming less so. I have yet to be in any nudist crowd that wasn't ethnically diverse.

The old saw about nudists shedding their class distinctions with their clothes is certainly overstated, but it does have its element of truth. Similarly, even though being nude doesn't disguise race, it makes it less important.

-Mark

Gary Naturist

04-09-2003, 03:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nate Dekan:
... One BIG advantage of a lifestyle minority over a birth minority is it's easy to hide.

Nate <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But Nate, we are easy to identify because we are nude!

I describe nudists as being a visible minority.

Gary

florida-david

04-09-2003, 05:43 AM

aussie boy - are you saying they exclude non-whites when you mention the beaches where you are, or that non-whites just don't go?

the website for the black/hispanic group in texas has some beautiful photography -way to go. i hope they don't exclude the other minorities to their gatherings. i would assume they are tolerant of all minorities.

also, sorry about my calculations, i messed up somewhere in there, but you get the idea. it is hard to tell now-a-days exactly what a person is based on skin tone. MANY hispanics look white, but would still be considered hispanic. also, its a shame that other cultures are trying to look white. this is happening in the asian community as well as in the african american community. if anything, i like the diversity of "black" skin color. was it not true that in the past the darker the "black" skin tone, the better? there is a similar mis-conception that the darker asian skin tones are from the working class in the field, hence not desirable for an asian to be dark. advertisement caters to certain markets at the expense of others; wether we know it or not, we are affected by the b.s. shoved down our throat by marketing (white smooth tan people with 6-pack abs are "in" right now). we should all only get a little sun as it causes skin cancer. maybe we should not worry about skin color and concentrate on health instead.

AussieBeachBoy

04-13-2003, 08:23 PM

David - I'm saying that very few non-caucasians go there. There is certainly no rule keeping such people away.

If anything, nudity is less taboo in many asian cultures than Australian/US culture. A couple of examples: There is a Korean bathhouse here in Sydney that requires people to be naked. There was also a story in our newspaper at the weekend that mentioned a local market in a village in China, where the people were so poor they only had one set of clothes. Anyone at the market doing things in and around the water would take off all their clothes, to avoid having to wear wet clothes for the rest of the day. These are just minor examples but I'm sure there are many more.

florida-david

04-13-2003, 08:48 PM

agreed that asian culture seems to make less of an issue of clothing in bath-houses. though i have never left the u.s., i did a little research into asian bathhouses when i was designing something several years ago. unfortunately, most are horribly ugly and lacked architectural design inspiration, but they all seemed to be mandatory nude. i'm not sure how this translates when they are built for asians in other countries. intersting thought.

Croydon

04-15-2003, 04:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by florida-david:
agreed that asian culture seems to make less of an issue of clothing in bath-houses. though i have never left the u.s., i did a little research into asian bathhouses when i was designing something several years ago. unfortunately, most are horribly ugly and lacked architectural design inspiration, but they all seemed to be mandatory nude. i'm not sure how this translates when they are built for asians in other countries. intersting thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, asian culture is VERY VERY strict regarding nudity especially among women. It is believed to be socially immoral to be showing a lot of skin in public. In one asian country, China or Singapore (not sure which), it is illegal for a man to be shirtless in public. In Japan, women being naked is horrible. In fact, a man is to never ever walk into the bathroom when his wife or any woman is bathing and vice versa. Proctor and Gamble found that out the hard way when they were selling a brand of soap. In their commercial, P&G had a woman bathing and the husband came into the bathroom to ask her how she is enjoying the soap. Needless to say, P&G received very little revenues for that brand of soap.

In Nigeria, female nakedness is considered to be unaccepted. The most daunting thing a Nigerian woman can do is bare her breast in public. In fact, not too long ago, Nigerian women came together to protest against Shell, the oil company. Shell was taking advantage of the Ogani tribe by having them work in horrible and dangerous working conditions and given them VERY little compensation in return. Nigerian women banded together to protest by baring the breast in public.

SoulNudist

04-15-2003, 02:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gamblefish:
Yeah, I think eric is right. No matter how independent we may think we are, there is strength in numbers. I can connect with the pictures of white folks in the photos of freedom more than with the black folks. Doesn't mean I don't like the pics of black folks, I just don't connect as much with them. So, more pics of black folks would be beneficial to other black folks wanting to know that there are alot of other black folks who are nudists.

Does any of that make sense to anybody? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SoulNudist

04-15-2003, 02:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoulNudist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gamblefish:
Yeah, I think eric is right. No matter how independent we may think we are, there is strength in numbers. I can connect with the pictures of white folks in the photos of freedom more than with the black folks. Doesn't mean I don't like the pics of black folks, I just don't connect as much with them. So, more pics of black folks would be beneficial to other black folks wanting to know that there are alot of other black folks who are nudists.

Does any of that make sense to anybody? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QUOT

This topic is great!! I also agree with Eric, Advertising is everything! I am SoulNudist the owner/moderator of www.baresoulnudist.com (http://www.baresoulnudist.com)

I started the group in 11/15/99 and we are still growing. There is alittle bit of truth in what all of you say, but the most truth is not seeing others like ourselves involved so we feel like an outsider.

I personally know thats not the case but it does take time to pursuede others.

SoulNudist

Croydon

04-15-2003, 02:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoulNudist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gamblefish:
Yeah, I think eric is right. No matter how independent we may think we are, there is strength in numbers. I can connect with the pictures of white folks in the photos of freedom more than with the black folks. Doesn't mean I don't like the pics of black folks, I just don't connect as much with them. So, more pics of black folks would be beneficial to other black folks wanting to know that there are alot of other black folks who are nudists.

Does any of that make sense to anybody? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No it doesnt make sense to me ata all, hence why I didn't bother replying to it. I think I know what the original user meant but it didn't come out the right way, poor word usage

turkishnudes

04-19-2003, 12:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Watch any typical movie or TV program (worldwide). The handsome guy will 98% of the time be White. The beautiful girl will 98% of the time be White. Only when a program is targeted to an specific audience will there be a non white character that is specifically signified as being handsome or beautiful. (I ABSOLUTELY am NOT saying the Whites are not beautiful, but rather that the rest of us are also beautiful). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Funny you should say that - the last two films I have watched on television have had totally coloured/mixed race casts (save the white wife of one coloured man):

Bones and Unwanted Guest.

The actors and actresses in the films were all beautiful - stunningly so!

gamblefish

04-19-2003, 02:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croydon:
No it doesnt make sense to me ata all, hence why I didn't bother replying to it. I think I know what the original user meant but it didn't come out the right way, poor word usage[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What I mean is, maybe more African Americans would try nudism if they though that a larger number of African Americans were enjoying nudism. Of the 6000+ photos on clothesfree's site, maybe 100 or so are of African Americans (I don't think there is that many, but I am guessing). Thats .016% . There is comfort in numbers. Maybe if there were more photos of African Americans then more would try it out. I am sure there are other websites (like the one Soulnudist mentioned) that have more photos of African Americans. I am saying that this would be beneficial, more photos can't hurt.

Bartamus

04-19-2003, 02:59 PM

Gamblefish: Nice responce! Thanks for staying on topic. Well reasoned and thoughtful

Bob S.

04-19-2003, 10:17 PM

Today, at the nudist park, I actually saw an African-American family (two parents, one young, probably 4-year-old boy). That was the first such family I had seen. Of course, very few people were naked today. Highs in the upper 50s, north wind, cloudy skies. Perfect hot-tub weather.

Since I started going, I have seen a lot more "minorities" there.

Bob S.

Croydon

04-19-2003, 11:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gamblefish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croydon:
No it doesnt make sense to me ata all, hence why I didn't bother replying to it. I think I know what the original user meant but it didn't come out the right way, poor word usage <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What I mean is, maybe more African Americans would try nudism if they though that a larger number of African Americans were enjoying nudism. Of the 6000+ photos on clothesfree's site, maybe 100 or so are of African Americans (I don't think there is that many, but I am guessing). Thats .016% . There is comfort in numbers. Maybe if there were more photos of African Americans then more would try it out. I am sure there are other websites (like the one Soulnudist mentioned) that have more photos of African Americans. I am saying that this would be beneficial, more photos can't hurt.[/QB] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I may have misinterpreted the statement. From the original statement, it appeared that you couldn't "connect" with the pictures of the black nudist b/c they are black. You should be able to connect with the black nudist b/c they share a common interest with you, nudism...The fact that they are black is irrelvent

Suntied

04-20-2003, 08:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croydon:
...The fact that they are black is irrelvent <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I live in Columbus, Ohio. The high school I graduated from was 75% black or African American. I do not know what the ratio of black vs. white is in this city, but there are many. I say hello to them as if they were humans, not black. OK, sometimes I'll say "What sup" to them depending on how they were dressed.

My point is: In all of my dealings with the black/African Americans throughout my life, they seam to find it more relevant than I do. I have seen a black couple at a nude swim once, but it was irrelevant to them and to all of us caucasians as far as I could tell. The black community probably thinks of nudity as "A white thing" and stays away from it because of that. I have know idea how to change that (society).

Nudity Rules!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Suntied /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Jochanaan

04-20-2003, 08:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoulNudist:
This topic is great!! I also agree with Eric, Advertising is everything! I am SoulNudist the owner/moderator of www.baresoulnudist.com (http://www.baresoulnudist.com)

I started the group in 11/15/99 and we are still growing. There is alittle bit of truth in what all of you say, but the most truth is not seeing others like ourselves involved so we feel like an outsider.

I personally know thats not the case but it does take time to pursuede others.

SoulNudist <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Welcome! I have enjoyed your web site since I discovered it a while back. I am white and value diversity. I especially appreciate that you have all body types in your pictures. No site does a better job than yours at dispelling the myth that nudism is about showing off a "perfect" body but about being free from clothes that "so easily beset us."

I have seen some coffee-table photo books of Africans, many of whom are naked or nearly so. I cannot remember the titles, but these books had pictures of beautiful, very very dark people. If they were better known, they would go far to restore pride in being not just African or "African-American," but BLACK.

nudeM

04-21-2003, 08:09 AM

hw and myself went over to the coast this past weekend (Easter), and attend the nude beach (Pirates' Cove). It was a very nice get-away-for-the-day type atmosphere. There weren't that many people, but that didn't change the desire to be nude. Any way, to get back to the subject, there were several African-Americans who were in attendance, and enjoying the atmosphere just like everyone else. There were also a lot of Hispanics as well, also enjoying the sun. And, yes, there sere several gawkers as well (stuck out like sore thumbs).

Point being made is, all types of nationalities were well represented and getting along just great. True, the number of caucasions far outnumbered the minorities, but it was nice to see other races being represented. Hope it stays that way, for we are all together on this.

Captain Zen

07-26-2005, 08:01 PM

I live 15+ years here in Sint Maarten, Caribbean Dutch West Indies, where the population is 70% black, 10% Indian, 15%white and 5% Chinese. I am white, but did not know that really. I arrived with my Israeli Sabra [chocolate with milk color] ex and after she left I was devastated for a year and a half. Then came Linda, who is an African Caribbean young woman from Dominica. She comforted me with a love she gave me that was the deepest most intense love I have ever known. We went to getthos and shanty towns and discos where I was the only white. Where the kids came to touch me to see if I was real. And here we have Nudist Club Orient. Most American white tourists come there, but now and again a local will walk the beach to look at the whities. But in general the dark skin people do not easily go nude. I speak from experience when I say that young black women can be the most emotionally lovely beautiful creatures in the universe... Needless to say that all my [girl] friends are black, they have something so amazingly feminine, so natural, that I am sometimes almost sorry to be white

DeathKnight

07-27-2005, 07:10 PM

It is God who determines our skin color when He creates us.

Captain Zen

07-27-2005, 07:20 PM

As a believer in reincarnation, BTW it was part of the scriptures, untill censored out in the year 553 by Justinianus at the Council of Constantinopel, it is I who determine where i get born and in what skin color. God is [in] me, we decide together.

Buzzer

08-06-2005, 12:57 PM

http://clothesfreeforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifHell, no!!!

Captain Zen

08-06-2005, 01:16 PM

What do you mean, are you in hell?
And what no, Did the Roman Caaaaatholic Council not scrap the reincarnation from the Bible? See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_Reincarnation
http://www.adishakti.org/_/roman_emperor_responsible_fo...rebirth_doctrine.ht m (http://www.adishakti.org/_/roman_emperor_responsible_for_ban_on_rebirth_doctr ine.htm)
During the past the "Holy Fathers" made many changes in what they call the "Holy Book".
How could you be living only one life time, while Gods creation is eternal.........

fredm74

08-06-2005, 04:16 PM

I'm also a black american naturist. I have to say that there is still a stigma in the black community regarding nudity in general. I found a naturist group with a sizable amount of black members about a year and a half ago and it has been a wonderful experience and it's growing everyday.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blksunclub/

Stay nude, Fred

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Zen:
What do you mean, are you in hell?
And what no, Did the Roman Caaaaatholic Council not scrap the reincarnation from the Bible? See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_Reincarnation
http://www.adishakti.org/_/roman_emperor_responsible_fo...rebirth_doctrine.ht m (http://www.adishakti.org/_/roman_emperor_responsible_for_ban_on_rebirth_doctr ine.htm)
During the past the "Holy Fathers" made many changes in what they call the "Holy Book".
How could you be living only one life time, while Gods creation is eternal......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NudeAl

08-06-2005, 04:22 PM

Good for you Fred! I hope your group can turn around some of the social stigma attached to nudity in the black community. I wonder why do you think it is this way? I suppose it's the same everywhere it is associated with sex and promiscuity one big orgie blah, blah, blah. Anyway good luck.

fredm74

08-06-2005, 06:50 PM

Thanks NudeAl!

I believe that culture and religion plays a part in the mindset of the black community when it comes to nudity. Most feel nudity equates with sex. I was very blessed to have parents that didn't shy away from nudity. I saw my mother nude almost on a daily basis when I was a kid. My parents are from the caribbean islands and nudity isn't really that big of an issue. Here in the states the black community thinks nudity is something to be ashamed of, something to hide and keep private. Churches teach that the body is something to cover up until you are married.

But hopefully the group that I belong to can really start opening up minds and making a difference.........

Stay nude, Fred

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NudeAl:
Good for you Fred! I hope your group can turn around some of the social stigma attached to nudity in the black community. I wonder why do you think it is this way? I suppose it's the same everywhere it is associated with sex and promiscuity one big orgie blah, blah, blah. Anyway good luck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JohnFourtyTwo

08-19-2006, 06:44 AM

In America it may have something to do with the racial demographics as the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-186/tab1ic.html) describes.

nudetech

08-20-2006, 01:53 PM

Couple of other things that I think add to the lack of minorities (or at least blacks, which is what I can speak best about being half black).

1) Most blacks can't swim, which is a major part of naturism for most (volleyball is not big in the black comunity either)

2)Within North America and Europe, most live in inner cities or the bible belt, neither of them places with a lot of naturist clubs.

3) Socio-economic. Naturism is a preominantly middle class recreation, even among whites, and, sadly, there is still an economic and eduactional devide between the races.

I agree with others though, that critical mass is the main problem though. My mother being white, if I go to a family gathering I am often the only non-white, unless by brother is there. I also grew up in a predominantly white area (there was me and a Korean kid in my class, the rest was white) so am used to being the only minority and don't even notice it now (I am often surprised that poeple remember me out of a group of 100+, then remeber that I was the only minority). Speaking to others though I know it can be a big deal. For those of you who think this odd, imagine being the only white persom amongst over 100 blacks or other minorities and think how you would feel.

There is also word of mouth (or lack of it). OK, naturist tend not to talk about it, but still some do, and some convert others. Fewer black members means fewer black converts.

You can see the numbers thing other places as well. Look at football (soccer) in the US. Again, predominantly white. Why? Football is massivly popular in Africa, and among blacks in Europe, so why not in the US? Again, few black kids are involved, so few want to join, so few are involved, so...

How do you increas the numbers? Well I agree that advertising is a good start, but remember that generally to see naturist ads you need to be looking for them in the first place. Other than that, time, social and political change, continuing (since in my experience this is already the case) to be welcoming, and greater overall tolerence of naturism throughout all of society.

Naturist Mark

08-20-2006, 02:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nudetech:
Couple of other things that I think add to the lack of minorities (or at least blacks, which is what I can speak best about being half black).

1) Most blacks can't swim, which is a major part of naturism for most (volleyball is not big in the black comunity either)

</div></BLOCKQUOTE> Who says most blacks can't swim? Swimming may not be as popular among black people, but blacks are just as capable of swimming. Besides, there isn't really much "swimming" going on, just lots of wading.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
3) Socio-economic. Naturism is a preominantly middle class recreation, even among whites, and, sadly, there is still an economic and eduactional devide between the races. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> In America, most blacks are middle class. Sure the ranks of blacks, and hispanics, and other historically disadvantaged groups are over-represented among the poor, but MOST blacks are not poor. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I agree with others though, that critical mass is the main problem though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly. Nudism is seen as a "white" thing by many people - so others don't feel it should be "their" thing. But I have yet to be in a club, resort, or sizable group that wasn't mixed. All kinds of people are nudists. So what if the numbers don't match the demographics of the general population - don't let that stop you, plenty of people are breaking the trend.

-Mark

nudetech

08-20-2006, 03:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Who says most blacks can't swim? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Statistics. Yes, of course blacks are just as capable of learning to swim as whites, but most havn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In America, most blacks are middle class. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on how you define middle class. By the standard US definition that covers about 90% of people, not really useful. Most blacks are what in England would be defined as working class (the largest group for all races in most countries).

to make it a bit clearer, from the US census bureau:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Black households had the lowest median income in 2004 ($30,134) among race groups... The median income for non-Hispanic white households was $48,977 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

blackrebel

08-21-2006, 08:05 PM

WOW this thread goes back to 2003.

Lets kill it !!!

NakedGary

08-21-2006, 08:23 PM

With 10 posts this month it will probably stay open.

Kill it? Maybe close or lock it for further posts, but available for read only access.

Many topic/threads go back to early 2002 and still active.

nacktman

08-22-2006, 06:19 AM

You know, somehow I don't think only those people residing in the Caucus Mountains are nudists.

Could be just me, but I don't think so.

tinner666

08-22-2006, 08:42 AM

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif Good Answer Nach! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Liam

08-30-2006, 09:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
You know, somehow I don't think only those people residing in the Caucus Mountains are nudists.

Could be just me, but I don't think so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand your statement, but it could be just me. Even as old as this topic is, I would like to address it. It is my experience in the nude beaches and nudist resorts in Southern California, African-Americans have always been well represented according to expected population ratios.

The use of "Caucasian" raises the problem of race. Most people do not understand what "race" means. Caucasians are found not only in Europian cultures, but they also include most Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs, and are even found as nomads in Central Asia.

In the most simple manner one can state it, there are 4 races: Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid, and Melanesian. Some scientists add races or add sub-races; examples are Polonesian, Micronesian, amd Bushmen (and even pigmy melanesians). These refinements are on very shaky ground. Genetically all assumptions of "race" are on shaky ground. Race is primarily a cultural thing that is risky to use if one is not familiar with the subject.

In the U.S. many people from Mexico, Central America, and South America get into trouble by crying "racisism" when they are talking about culture and not "race". There are no races named Latino, Hispanic, or Chicano. Most of the peoples from Mexico to Argentina and Chile are either caucasian, mongoloid, or a blend of caucasian and mongoloid.

It is all culture. Race is a taxinomically useful tag for some scientists. For everyone else it is genetically unimportant. It is all cultural.

Even the term African-American is fraught with perils. One could go into deep waters with Americans of African descent. Most of the "black" people in the U.S. are also, genetically caucasian as well as negroid. Blasted race thing again. Useless. It is all cultural. I have no problem with African-American. I have no problem with Italian-American (except you get such things as: "but my maternal father was a Scot.")

To make it personal, I am Irish AND American by citizenship as my mother was Irish and my father was American. It is simple right? Not quite, one of my great-great grandmothers was a Souix. There now is a bit of the mongoloid. I am fortunate, depending on how you look at it, in that my ancestry both maternally and paternally (except for the Soux grandmother) has an unbroken list going back just over 1000 years. That is unusual. But it really doesn't help much. Before that time who knows what happened genetically except that we are all related quite closely no matter the color of our skin or facial shape. It is all cultural.

It is a fact that in the U.S. "people of color" are underrepresented in organized nudism. Still, I have shared nudist experiences with people from almost every culture. The low number of "people of color" or "non-Europeans" is at least partially due to the genesis of the modern Naturist movement happening in Germany. We must also not forget that many cultures around the world were taught by European Christian missionaries that nudity, even breast feeding children, was sinful. Many happy and innocent cultures were taught that they were inferior and must cover their sinful bodies.

It is our fault if we don't invite and encourage people from other cultures to consider the nudist way of life. I have shared spas and played water volley ball with people from many cultures: Europeans, Mexicans, South Americans, Filipinos, Thais, Indians, Japanese, South Africans, Ethiopians, Somalis, Malayans and African-Americans. I said it at the beginning of this paragraph: it is OUR fault if we do not encourage people from other cultures (or if you prefer "people of color") to join us. Oh! I forgot the guy from Nigeria who kept us all in stiches for two days in Palm Springs!

GK in Kailua

08-31-2006, 12:23 PM

Aloha! I just found this thread and found it so interesting. I'm a Japanese American from Hawaii and didn't see any Asian responses. Even here in our so-called melting pot, at naturist gatherings I've been to, the mix is heavily skewed to Caucasian. Of course this is fine with me, altough I have found it amusing. I believe that we are products of our upbringing, and "shame" was a strong factor in mine and in others I've grown up around. A strong factor in our behavior is not to do anything to "shame the family". And even in this climate, enjoying the weather nude with or without others has always been just plain weird. A different way might be to use "guilt", or right or wrong to guide behavior. Of course, right and wrong are just a matter of thinking, but finding "wrong" with the body is pretty silly. Personally, my wife (also JA) and I are trying to raise our young daughter using more guilt than shame. Our family and non-nudist friends are clueless of our lifestyle and my wife and I find it difficult to break the shackles of our shame-guided upbring.

Just my .02

Liam

09-03-2006, 01:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GK in Kailua:
Aloha! I just found this thread and found it so interesting. I'm a Japanese American from Hawaii and didn't see any Asian responses. Even here in our so-called melting pot, at naturist gatherings I've been to, the mix is heavily skewed to Caucasian. Just my .02 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've stared at this for a couple of days now and didn't comment, but I cannot stand it. I gotta get picky. You are being, unintentionally of course, racist. The use of "Caucasian" in this context is incorrect. You could have said "white" (not quite correct) or European ethnic. Asians are often Caucasian. Most of West Asia, Central Asia (extending into Mongolia), and South Central Asia are Caucasian. Though in the case of Central Asia it is often a mixture. Your use of Asian is incorrect in this case. If you had contrasted Caucasian with Mongoloid you would have been right but it is not a good solution. You would have been better off by saying "East Asian" and/or "Southeast Asian". Just a picky point.

Bob S.

09-03-2006, 02:41 PM

I agree with Liam's message. I abhor the term "race". Humans are a single race. The color of the skin does not designate any race. I much prefer to use the terms ethicity or descent (eg. he is of African descent).

Bob S.

GK in Kailua

09-04-2006, 12:56 AM

How am I being racist? I checked the word in the dictionary and I really don't understand your post. I may have misused a couple of words -Asian and Caucasian - but racist??
Liam, please look up "racist" or "racism" and explain how that applies to me. Do you think that perhaps you were being so "picky" that you failed to see my message?
Your thoughts?

hootowl

09-04-2006, 05:20 AM

I agree with you GK. Way to picky on details here, and most of the pickiness isnt even that correct!!

Croydon

09-04-2006, 06:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hootowl:
I agree with you GK. Way to picky on details here, and most of the pickiness isnt even that correct!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I second that

Liam

09-05-2006, 04:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GK in Kailua:
How am I being racist? I checked the word in the dictionary and I really don't understand your post. I may have misused a couple of words -Asian and Caucasian - but racist??
Liam, please look up "racist" or "racism" and explain how that applies to me. Do you think that perhaps you were being so "picky" that you failed to see my message?
Your thoughts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not intend to say you are being racist. However your use of the term "Caucasian" could be interpreted that way. Why? Because "Caucasian" is a racial category. As you used no other racial category in your post it might look like you are singling out one particular "race".

Race is a taxonimical nomenclature only of use to certain scientists. It is not of amy use to anyone else really. Ethnicty is almost as bad, but not quite. People differ mostly because of their culture. There are 4 races: Mongoloid, Negroid, Melanesian and Caucasian. You contrasted a racial term "Caucasian" with a geographical term "Asian". As I pointed out, the geographical term "Asian" encompases more than one race.

My other point was that it is best to avoid race altogether. Genetically, all of us are very much the same. The only real difference between us is our cultures. That is the meaning of my response.

I have no need to look these words up in the dictionary. I have degrees in both Archaeology and Anthropology (medical forensics). I have had a close working knowledge with the terms of "race". I can tell you that scientists like to categorize things. For anyone else it just gets in the way.....or worse, is misunderstood. Also, I did understand your post and thought it a quite good one.

Liam

09-05-2006, 04:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Croydon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hootowl:
I agree with you GK. Way to picky on details here, and most of the pickiness isnt even that correct!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I second that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hootowl and Croydon, I did say it was being picky....twice actually. I would be interested in how my pickiness wasn't even that correct. Please comment on my error or errors. I have no wish to get off on the wrong foot here.

missouriboy

09-07-2006, 06:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
I agree with Liam's message. I abhor the term "race". Humans are a single race. The color of the skin does not designate any race. I much prefer to use the terms ethicity or descent (eg. he is of African descent).

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>First you say you agree with Liam, who says:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are 4 races: Mongoloid, Negroid, Melanesian and Caucasian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>and then you disagree with Liam, saying "humans are a single race."

I agree with Liam's statement too. Humans are a single SPECIES, not a single race. Do you also believe the species dog does not have different breeds?

I think you are just kow-towing to Political Correctness, which dictates that race is to be ignored. I call this just one more example demonstrating that PC is nothing more than Denial of Truth.

nacktman

09-07-2006, 06:29 AM

Again, I don't think only those people residing in the Caucus Mountains are nudists.

I could be wrong though!

Naturist Mark

09-07-2006, 04:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are only Caucasians nudists? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No

... next question?

Liam

09-07-2006, 04:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Again, I don't think only those people residing in the Caucus Mountains are nudists.

I could be wrong though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! I got it finally! Too funny! Thanks for the laugh! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

Ken Palmer

09-07-2006, 10:13 PM

Hello everyone. Well, it looks like this has turned out to be quite a touchy topic here. I just would like to make one comment here. I am of African Descent and am a nudist. As has been mentioned throughout the scope of the discussion on this topic, there are not too many African-American people interested in partaking of either nudism or naturism. A lot of it stems from their upbringing and culture as was I. To further elaborate, I originally grew up in a very strict Christian environment where the simple mentioning of nudity in itself was not discussed unless it was for a darn good reason. When you talk to the average person of African-American descent about nudism/naturism, they most likely will look at you like you are crazy! I don't mean to be blunt here. I am just stating simple fact. It was said in some previous posts that culture has a lot to do with it. I think to a certain degree that is correct. For example, many Europeans will tell you that they have seen nude sunbathers on many of their beaches and it was no big deal because it is part of their culture. England and Germany are two of the biggest examples on that. Are you getting the picture? How you were raised and brought up around is and can be a major factor in determining if a particular ethnicity or minority will partake in certain activities or hobbies. I hope this next example will not come off as stereotypical. If a group of minorities are raised in an area in which nudism is not emphasized or encouraged and is also shamed, then they are most likely not going to partake of that activity because of it. That is how it pretty much was with me as a youngster. But as I attended college and began to interact and mingle with a crowd with more broader interests and hobbies and open minds, my views and attitudes toward life began to change. I guess it's like having the blinders taken off of your eyes! This is not to say that I regret the way I was raised, but I now obviously have a different viewpoint towards my beloved hobby of nudism.I am also not implying that all minorities or ethnicities were raise with closed minds. Anyhow, this is just one perspective I wanted to add to this sensitive discussion. I certainly hope this will not spark further arguments or fights. Just my two cents worth! Thanks!

Ken Palmer

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Liam:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nacktman:
Again, I don't think only those people residing in the Caucus Mountains are nudists.

I could be wrong though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! I got it finally! Too funny! Thanks for the laugh! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

alfredr

09-08-2006, 03:52 AM

Hey Liam. You have to tell people sooner when you are using scientific terms in their scientific meanings. Those of us who aren't thinking of them in their scientific sense and are using words in their common usage will be confused and may cause some misunderstanding.

Race, for instance: Who would put any of those terms on a form where it asks for your race? Mongoloid? That used to mean Downs Syndrome in the un-scientific usage. I always put "human" for "race."

I thought ethnicity was a better term to use for asking about one's background. I think it gives them the freedom to answer any way they want. I asked a woman her ethnicity a couple of weeks ago and she said she was half Korean and I forget what she said about the other half. White, I think.

And then, a couple of years ago when I took my son to college, in Florida, and there was a car with a Montana or Wyoming license plate in the dorm parking lot, I commented that there might be an ethnic cowboy living in the dorm.

By the way, what is the problem with "ethnicity?"

Always open to learning somethig new, such as:

Why is there a TV in front of my typewriter and where do I put the paper? Or change the channel?

Liam

09-08-2006, 05:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alfredr:
Hey Liam. You have to tell people sooner when you are using scientific terms in their scientific meanings. Those of us who aren't thinking of them in their scientific sense and are using words in their common usage will be confused and may cause some misunderstanding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I handled this problem as well as I could. The original post was fine but mis-used a scientific term. Caucasian is not properly used if it is not pertaining to the term "race".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Race, for instance: Who would put any of those terms on a form where it asks for your race? Mongoloid? That used to mean Downs Syndrome in the un-scientific usage. I always put "human" for "race."
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you that the use of "race" in this forum is not a good thing. That is why I first posted by picky note. Mongoloidism is another term for Down's Syndrome. The term was taken from the scientific taxonomy of race by using Mongoloid as a discriptive definition of the deformity. See how nasty the use of race and racial terms by the layman can be? Our ancestors thougt it was a correct way to look at our physical and cultural differences. We know better nowadays I hope.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I thought ethnicity was a better term to use for asking about one's background. I think it gives them the freedom to answer any way they want. I asked a woman her ethnicity a couple of weeks ago and she said she was half Korean and I forget what she said about the other half. White, I think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ethnicity is fine. It has the problem of having a very wide-range of definitions. For many people it is very much akin to race. Even using dictionary or scientific definition is of less importance to most people than their own or perceived understanding. Still, it is much better than the devisive "race".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And then, a couple of years ago when I took my son to college, in Florida, and there was a car with a Montana or Wyoming license plate in the dorm parking lot, I commented that there might be an ethnic cowboy living in the dorm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ethnic cowboy? Someone from the cowboy culture perhaps? As with your half Korean, many people use the term "ethnic" as a means to break-down race into sub-races which seems kinder. The only thing that makes any difference is culture.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By the way, what is the problem with "ethnicity?"

Always open to learning somethig new, such as:

Why is there a TV in front of my typewriter and where do I put the paper? Or change the channel? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As to the ethnicity question, I tried to explain the situation, but I have no problem with it's use. As to your second set of problems I haven't a clue.

Liam

09-08-2006, 05:48 PM

Excellent post Ken! Right on track and an very good reply to the original question!

Bob S.

09-08-2006, 08:09 PM

Moboy:"First you say you agree with Liam...and then you disagree with Liam, saying "humans are a single race.""

You know, I've looked at that again and again and I think I may have either misread Liam or was agreeing with only part of his message.

Moboy:"Humans are a single SPECIES, not a single race."

To me, race and species are the same thing. There is always talk about the Human Race and that is the definition I prefer when talking about race.

There are different ethnicities who share commonalities such as skin and hair color, facial features, height at maturity, etc. But I do not consider those differences to be representative of different races.

Moboy:"Do you also believe the species dog does not have different breeds?"

There is no species dog. There is a species Canis lupis familiaris, but no taxonomic nomenclature called dog. Now as for dogs, yes they have different breeds. But I would not consider there to be a poodle race or the Great Dane race.

Moboy:"I think you are just kow-towing to Political Correctness, which dictates that race is to be ignored."

I hate PC just as much as I hate the term race. As I mentioned, it is just a difference of opinion about which term should be used. I feel ethicity, you say race.

Bob S.

missouriboy

09-09-2006, 02:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Moboy:"Humans are a single SPECIES, not a single race."

To me, race and species are the same thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>And why, then, do we have the two different words? They represent two different levels of differentiation, and are not synonymous.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Moboy:"Do you also believe the species dog does not have different breeds?"

There is no species dog. There is a species Canis lupis familiaris... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I know that, but that isn't the point. The point is that breed is to Canis lupis familiaris as race is to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Yet, you believe species and race are the same thing, but species and breed are not the same thing. Impossibly illogical.

Without agreement on the simple definitions of ordinary words, communication breaks down and further development of understanding is stymied.

missouriboy

09-09-2006, 02:33 AM

Bob S., here is one more fact that tends to cement the point I'm trying to make: different races and different breeds may successfully interbreed within their own species and produce offspring, while different species may not.

And if that allows species and race to be the same thing, then I'm a 500-pound canary! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

hootowl

09-09-2006, 07:23 AM

One poster said that he thought that "of african descent" was a good way to put it, I ask, what about the family Debeers, they are of African descent arent they?? As they have lived in Africa for about 8 generations! Or do we go back longer than that? If so , how long? And if so, we are all decendants of Africa, according to the anthropoligists!!

hootowl

09-09-2006, 07:24 AM

Anybody wanta go to chattroom with this one??

Naturist Mark

09-09-2006, 08:51 AM

Race is not a meaningful biological term.

It is a social construct - having to do with social (ethnic) proximity, but has no genetic distinction.

What do I mean by that?

Simply - there is as much genetic diversity between individuals of the same perceived "race" as between individuals of different races. The average differences between races is much less than the differences within the races.

People tend to zero in on a few superficial characteristics, and say that they define "race" - things like skin color, eyelid shape - but ignore all the other variety in human shape in form and function. Truth is, when you consider your entire genome, you are as likely to be like a stranger of a different race from the opposite end of the world as you are of an unrelated stranger next door.

Humans are amazingly close to nearly identical genetically - more so than almost any other successful species.

Someone compared human "races" to dog "breeds". This comparison is actually useful. All domestic dogs are a single species. There is a very wide level of genetic variation between members of the species - yet they are still a single interfertile species. If humans were domestic dogs, our races wouldn't be different breeds, we are so much alike that we would all be poodles.

Wikipedia on Race. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race)

An earlier and more direct discussion on race from these boards: What race or nationality are we? (http://clothesfreeforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3400016152/m/4230019152?r=5430019152#5430019152)

What DNA Says About Human Ancestry?and Bigotry (http://web.mit.edu/racescience/in_media/what_dna_says_about_human/)
Do Races Differ? Not Really, DNA Shows (http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/082200sci-genetics-race.html)

-Mark

Bob S.

09-09-2006, 08:04 PM

MoBoy:"Without agreement on the simple definitions of ordinary words, communication breaks down and further development of understanding is stymied."

I understand the use of the terminology and accept that it means what it means, but I also disagree with its usage as well.

Ultimately, it is not "racism" that we are dealing with. The hatreds, misunderstandings, and everything else are ethnic and cultural constructs. They look different, they act different, they worship different gods. They are bad. We must change them.

The underpinnings of racism are not "racial" by your definition. They are ethnic and cultural and that is where I have the biggest problem with the term racism, especially when combined with the fact that I feel the ethnicities are all a part of a single race.

There have been other Homo Sapiens such as Homo sapiens idaltu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens_idaltu) as described in Wikipedia. They would represent another race of Humans. When it gets down to the subspecies, all are definitely in the same race.

Bob S.

missouriboy

09-11-2006, 05:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I understand the use of the terminology and accept that it means what it means, but I also disagree with its usage as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>From Merriam-Webster:

species
Function: noun
(1) : a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name

race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
1 : a breeding stock of animals ((and humans ARE animals - moboy))
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

There, even the dictionary states that race is a category within species and is equivalent to breed. If your personal politics prevent you from agreeing with that, then as I said before, futher communication is stymied. According to your beliefs, the title of this thread might well have been "Are only Homo Sapiens sapiens nudists?" And who could usefully respond to an oxymoron like that one?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ultimately, it is not "racism" that we are dealing with. The hatreds, misunderstandings, and everything else are ethnic and cultural constructs. They look different, they act different, they worship different gods. They are bad. We must change them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Holy mackerel! Who introduced racism into this discussion?? Certainly not I!