Influential Evangelist Resigns

[NudistGuy47]

From Yahoo News and the AP
Evangelist Resigns (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations;_ylt=ArwDkaIckVnmKiQNwnTHe mCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-)

What are your thoughts on this revelation in Colorado?

Methinks, those who do protest too much and urge the voters to vote a cerain way from the pulpit, just might have something to hide.

Just my thoughts! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/eusa_dance.gif

[NudistGuy47]

From Yahoo News and the AP
Evangelist Resigns (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations;_ylt=ArwDkaIckVnmKiQNwnTHe mCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-)

What are your thoughts on this revelation in Colorado?

Methinks, those who do protest too much and urge the voters to vote a cerain way from the pulpit, just might have something to hide.

Just my thoughts! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/eusa_dance.gif

[Journeyman]

Oops, Nudistguy -- I posted a similar thread with the whole story cut & pasted, not noticing you had posted almost the same.

"Great minds think alike", eh? :-)

[Naturist Mark]

Rev. Haggard is well known for his extreme anti-homosexual views.

It has been noted before that what people hate the most is that which they most fear in themselves.

-Mark

[kphoger]

am i a bad christian because i'd never heard of the guy before? well, i've probably heard his name in conversation, it sure didn't ring any bells.

my thoughts:
he must have been living in torment -- constantly battling conflicting emotions. i mean, if you were in his position, you'd be terrified to come forward, wouldn't you?
it doesn't surprise me too much, though, because focusing on a sin too much just makes you want to commit it even more (paul wrote about this in the new testament).
i wonder if the media are making a huge deal out of this. i know they enjoy ripping on the catholic church, but i don't see them doing it too much to the protestant side.

[Journeyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kphoger:
...i wonder if the media are making a huge deal out of this. i know they enjoy ripping on the catholic church, but i don't see them doing it too much to the protestant side. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the media are overblowing this at all. The guy apparently has had the ear of your president, along with influential Evangelical Christian leaders like Falwell and Robertson. Your country is on the verge of an election. Bush and this Haggard guy are well known for their anti-gay marriage and homosexual stance.

Since the Republicans made such a big deal out of Clinton's sexual indiscretions a few years ago, why shouldn't 'all the president's men' be also exposed today for the hypocrites they are?

I find it rather funny and sad, though, that Haggard seems to be denying his gay past more vehemently than his (much more damaging) drug-taking.

You're right about his obvious torment - but it doesn't excuse his anti-gay fear mongering among his Evangelical followers.

[Fuzzy Nuts]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
Rev. Haggard is well known for his extreme anti-homosexual views.

It has been noted before that what people hate the most is that which they most fear in themselves.

Mark, The report I heard on Canadian TV was that Haggart was accused of having sex with Jones. Haggart denied the allegation and Jones comment was something like if he thought it was a massage and then he laughed.
-Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Eric6420]

As a gay man myself, I must admit that the life of a homosexual is often not an easy one.

Where I live in rural Quebec, there are still people who think that gays are perverts or sick, even if gay marriage is legal here and that the leader of Parti Québécois is also an openly gay man.

I think that people who are at war against homosexuals have probably problems with their own desires.

[usmc1]

Eric, I got to agree with you pal.

As a stone-cold breeder boy, I can tell you that the guys I know who come off as the most homophobic also come across as over compnesating, self-loathing little boys caught at about the eight grade level of gender identity.

I just think that guys that are comfortable with their male heterolsexual selves don't get caught up in all this gay bashing and gay-hate. One always wonders about the latency issues of these professional gay bashers from the pulpit and seats of government. They yell so loudly, taht you just have to wonder what they're concealing or hiding from themselves.

We keep seeing this over and over, with Foley and Haggard the most recent examples.

But, men such as Foley and Haggard who obviously are so conflicted about their sexuality are in many ways more deserving of pity than censure, despite the harm they cause.

It would be tough enough, I should think, to be gay, but to be gay and closeted and part of a religious or political group that despises gays would be especially debilitating.

[hm0504]

I strongly agree with Rick Mercer that those who are obsessed with banning things gay undoubtedly spend much more time every day thinking about gay sex than gay people do.

[nakedjohn]

We can read the article even in the Belgian newspapers.

[Sauna]

I have to explain that our church name is Evangelical Lutheran of Finland, but this evangelical does not mean same as it means in US. It means here gospel. It is wrong translated.

[Naturist Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have to explain that our church name is Evangelical Lutheran of Finland, but this evangelical does not mean same as it means in US. It means here gospel. It is wrong translated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a wrong translation. Evangelical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism) has both meanings here.

The evangelical religious movement in the US is seen as a primary part of the political religious right - and counts President Bush as a member. But many mainstream protestant churches call themselves "evangelical" in the older more traditional sense.

-Mark

[nimrod]

I will say this on both post. I have seen a clip of an interview with Haggard before this event, and his views on homosexuality were more liberal than most of his ilk, even saying that god made everyone even homosexuals(para phrased). I think that it is being blown out of proportion as the media as a habbit of doing. I am not defending him or his actions though.

[l2ltlarry]

FWIW --
"The word evangelist comes from the Koine Greek word ?????????? (transcribed as "euangelion") via Latin "Evangelium", as used in the canonic titles of the four Gospels, and thus The Evangelists are the authors of the four Gospels -- traditionally known as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (also known as the Four Evangelists). The Greek word ?????????? originally meant a reward for good news given to the messenger (?? = "good", ??????? = "I bring a message"; the word angel is of the same root) and later "good news". The latter term gives rise to the word "Gospel"."

I was going to say that the word comes from 2 Greek words meaning "good" + "angel", which equals "message", then I found this on Wikipedia.

My dad was one of the biggest hypocrites I've every experienced, and I consequently hate hypocrisy. Maybe not very Christian, but I'm being honest. Hypocrite means you're keeping what's real under wraps. I've always hated hiding things or having to hide things. This is one reason I'm a big fan of nudism. No hiding. But nude of mind as well as body. I've learned, though, that trying to live nude of mind can get you more trouble than you can handle, so I've learned to hide like everyone else.

Jesus of Nazareth, who is called the Christ, made this statement over and over again, "Woe unto you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites." Seems he didn't like them any better than we do. "Scribes" are the small-minded people who feel compelled to make rules and laws for the rest of us to live by, and "Pharisees" are the Ted Haggards, the Jimmy Swaggarts, and the great and small of their kind. These folks also are hypocrites and rule-makers.

[hm0504]

I agree that the term "evangelical" is not the best; I think a better term would be "religious extremist" or maybe "religious xenophobe".

I also don't want to be too hard on Haggard the man -- while obviously he was an apostle of religious xenophobia, he was also a victim of it.

Though I'm not quite on the same page with all their positions, I like the faith-based response of Geez magazine to the upcoming Franklin Graham crusade in Winnipeg -- a good example of authentic Christianity in action against religious extremism -- more here:
http://geezmagazine.org/blessourenemies.

[NudistGuy47]

It seems the story is more "true" than not.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061106/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

[Baron Lake]

Heard on the Stephanie Miller show that Haggard is (was?) a "meth"odist.
b.l.

[Journeyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hm0504:
I also don't want to be too hard on Haggard the man -- while obviously he was an apostle of religious xenophobia, he was also a victim of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, he was, and I'm trying to have charitable (Christian!) thoughts towards him.

But I find it dispicable that for so many years, he would have been preaching against the "evils of homosexuality" to young people of his congregation, some of who would have been inherently gay. They would be made to feel even worse about their natural orientation, having to listen to his rot.

I think Someone Up There might be just letting him know that he was made OK in the first place, and the spreading of lies and deception -- all around -- have been his ruin.

[hm0504]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baron Lake:
Heard on the Stephanie Miller show that Haggard is (was?) a "meth"odist.
b.l. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good one!

[Bob S.]

kphoger:"i wonder if the media are making a huge deal out of this."

kp, according to the yahoo story that NudistGuy supplide, Haggard was a founder of New Life Church, which has 14,000 members. He was also president of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million evangelical Christians. I would not exactly call him a small player.

He also was a friend of Bush. Of course they are making a huge deal out of this. It is a huge deal. Especially when you add to the fact that Haggard was working to forward an anti-gay marriage amendment in Colorado, his homestate.

When big people fall, they cause bigger craters and it is felt by more people.

Bob S.

[NudistGuy47]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Journeyman:
Oops, Nudistguy -- I posted a similar thread with the whole story cut & pasted, not noticing you had posted almost the same.

"Great minds think alike", eh? :-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We certainly do! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[nimrod]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob S.:
kphoger:"i wonder if the media are making a huge deal out of this."

kp, according to the yahoo story that NudistGuy supplide, Haggard was a founder of New Life Church, which has 14,000 members. He was also president of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million evangelical Christians. I would not exactly call him a small player.

He also was a friend of Bush. Of course they are making a huge deal out of this. It is a huge deal. Especially when you add to the fact that Haggard was working to forward an anti-gay marriage amendment in Colorado, his homestate.

When big people fall, they cause bigger craters and it is felt by more people.

Bob S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you Bob, it is a big deal, and it hurts a lot of people, but that does not mean that the media will not either blow it way out of porportion or go the other way and down play it.

I think that my earlier assuption is wrong though, I think even though it is recieving media coverage they are making it seem that it is not as bad as it really is. The reports that I have seen so far focus on the people that are forgiving him for what he has done, and not the ones he has harmed. Unfortunatly some of those that he as harmed will feel the psycological affects for a long time, without knowing why they are acting in a self destructive manner.

[oldbob]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sauna:
I have to explain that our church name is Evangelical Lutheran of Finland, but this evangelical does not mean same as it means in US. It means here gospel. It is wrong translated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually evangelical is used in more than one way here. The largest national body is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Another national body is Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. They, like the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, incorporate the word evangelical in their names because that was the name given to the church that split from the Roman Catholic Church at the beginning of the Reformation. In fact, the Lutheran church in Germany, as you probably know, is called simply the Evangelical Church.

There are also people in the United States and elsewhere in the world that refer to themselves as evangelicals. They are not likely to be Lutherans. They are highly motivated to "save" the unsaved by bringing them to Christ. Lutherans and other denominations from the reformed tradition, on the other hand, reach out by letting people know that Christ has saved them.

Sorry if I'm offering too much information.

Bob

[kphoger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> kp, according to the yahoo story that NudistGuy supplide, Haggard was a founder of New Life Church, which has 14,000 members. He was also president of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million evangelical Christians. I would not exactly call him a small player.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh, you misunderstood my question. i was simply asking if this incident is "all over the news" the way problems in the catholic church always seem to end up. i don't hear a lot in the news about protestant (evangelical) problems, so i was wondering if this is a small story or a big story for the reporters.

having grown up lutheran, and having lived in wheaton (billy graham, ken taylor, et al.), i can definitely say that "evangelical" is not used in conversation the way it is used in writing. in writing, and in titles, it simply means protestant; in conversation, though, it typically refers to the billy graham & george bush branch of the church. i simply don't use the term at all, and nobody complains.