What is freedom worth to you?

[OZJames]

The more a country moves away from total freedom of speech the more oppression and death - the more a country moves away from freedom of gun ownership the less death

[Skinview]

I think you guys are missing the point. He is comparing guns to speech.

I.E. the proposition that gun rights are so fundamental that that the deaths caused by accidental, irresponsible and evil use are irrelevant - the cost in liberty of restricting gun rights in any way is almost always morally greater than the cost in lives.

And that is a very reasonable viewpoint if you agree that gun rights are fully comparable to freedom of speech. Most of us gladly choose to live in a more disorderly society, full of people with views we don't agree with, saying things we don't like, because we value the freedom to do that more than imposed tranquility. The question is do we feel the same about guns?

It is a gun rights inspired question. I think the question is interesting all by itself, but I am inspired by anti gun people who think that freedom should be abridged or abolished to save lives. I heard Sen. Howard Metzenbaum say once that some anti gun law would be worth it "if it saved just one life". It makes me wonder what they would think about applying the same logic to other freedoms. The US lost 416,000 people in WW II defending liberty, or so we were told that was what the fight was over. And then we turn around and toss out liberty to save one life? Do we really value liberty? Perhaps we don't. Do we just value the liberties that we actually use, and someone elses's liberty be damned?

So far, I've got one for tossing out the liberty to save 43 lives, and one for letting everyone die before we let go of liberty.

[Skinview]

The difference of course is that the constitution doesn't provide an individual right to own guns at all.

Forget about the Constitution. The American creed is that rights don't come from pieces of paper. The question is "How much do you value liberty?" The question applies to anyone, in any country, with or without a constitution.

[Sanslines]

Screaming "Liberty" and "Freedom' sounds wonderful but what do these words really mean?? They, of course mean different things to different people. To some, with 'freedom' and 'liberty' come 'responsibility' and 'respect'. The words 'freedom' and 'liberty' do not mean that anyone can do anything under the alleged umbrella definition of these words.

[Gloria]

The more a country moves away from total freedom of speech the more oppression and death - the more a country moves away from freedom of gun ownership the less death

They who beat their swords into a plowshares...will plow for those who don't.

[Gloria]

The difference of course is that the constitution doesn't provide an individual right to own guns at all.

Jon, remember I have pointed out many times, the Constitution does not PROVIDE rights. It protects existing rights from government infringement.

[Yogi Bare]

Forget about the Constitution. The American creed is that rights don't come from pieces of paper.

the Constitution does not PROVIDE rights.

Really??

The Constitution was written on paper. Amendments to the Constitution, which are now considered to be part of the Constitution, have ESTABLISHED (or provided) rights that did not exist previously, such as women and blacks having the right to vote. All of the amendments, which includes the Bill of Rights, are certainly written on pieces of paper.

Forget the Constitution? OK. If that's the way you feel, then don't use it to try and back up any position that you want to take.

[Skinview]

Really??

The Constitution was written on paper. Amendments to the Constitution, which are now considered to be part of the Constitution, have ESTABLISHED (or provided) rights that did not exist previously, such as women and blacks having the right to vote. All of the amendments, which includes the Bill of Rights, are certainly written on pieces of paper.

You are correct. My statement was a little too generalized. There are a few rights, like your example, that are called "synthetic rights", that have been created. But our "natural rights", as described by John Locke, are infinite in extent. James Madison, for a time, argued against having a Bill of Rights, because he thought it would imply that we had no other rights. So he came up with the Ninth Amendment to correct that problem. That plan seems to have been a failure...

Forget the Constitution? OK. If that's the way you feel, then don't use it to try and back up any position that you want to take.

Forget it for this thread.

[Skinview]

Screaming "Liberty" and "Freedom' sounds wonderful but what do these words really mean?? They, of course mean different things to different people. To some, with 'freedom' and 'liberty' come 'responsibility' and 'respect'. The words 'freedom' and 'liberty' do not mean that anyone can do anything under the alleged umbrella definition of these words.

Liberty means that, so long as harm no one, and violate no one else's rights, yu can do WHATEVER you want, without anyone else's premission.

[Sanslines]

Liberty means that, so long as harm no one, and violate no one else's rights, yu can do WHATEVER you want, without anyone else's premission.

You definition requires an explanation of what it means to 'harm' someone. You definition also does not take into consideration 'harming' the environment or plants or animals. For example, cutting down all of the giant redwood trees in California technically harms no one person, but it does destroy the environment and therefore there is no such 'liberty' to cut down the redwoods.

Given that human population is constantly increasing and less and less free and isolated space is availible, what was considered harmless in the past is definitely not harmless today. It is therefore a natural consequence to have ever decreasing 'liberty' as a direct result of ever increasing human population growth.

Also, given that just about everything that a person does today harms someone or something, true 'liberty' is really a thing of the past.