What is freedom worth to you?

[Navigator]

...there are a relatively small number of accidental shootings......

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/was-ny...shot-yesterday

[Gloria]

And I remember spelling out to you that your position is make believe. Despite the ludicrious arguments you and Skinview wish to make the Constitution is the highest law in America. All state constitutions and state laws are subordinate to that. We have freedom of religion because our constitution gives us freedom of religion. If you doubt this look at other countries (start with the middle-east) where they don't guarantee freedom of religion in their constitution and see how religious minorities are treated there. It's an extreme contrast between them and America.

No Jon. the Constitution does not give us freedom of religion. God gave us freedom of religion. When you ever do sit down and read the Constitution you will see that the First Amendment prevents congress from establishing a religion and prohibiting the free exercise of religion. It doesn't "give" us anything.....it just protects rights and freedoms that we already had.

The governments in the mid east don't guarantee freedom of religion because they don't have a constitution that protects that freedom.

[Kari P]

No, Gloria. A non-existent God did give us no freedoms.

[Kouak]

No Jon. the Constitution does not give us freedom of religion. God gave us freedom of religion. When you ever do sit down and read the Constitution you will see that the First Amendment prevents congress from establishing a religion and prohibiting the free exercise of religion. It doesn't "give" us anything.....it just protects rights and freedoms that we already had.

The Constitution gave us the FREEDOM of religion. God did not even give us religion. Humans created religion to establish how to worship their god. The Constitution just requires that the government not dictate the rules nor say which god is right. ...in theory.

In practice, many politicians have put in place a de facto christian religion.

[Yogi Bare]

The Constitution gave us the FREEDOM of religion. God did not even give us religion. Humans created religion to establish how to worship their god. The Constitution just requires that the government not dictate the rules nor say which god is right. ...in theory.

In practice, many politicians have put in place a de facto christian religion.

We've seen that, especially from the evangelical Christian right politicians, who seem to believe that Muslims are not on equal footing with them when it comes to freedom of religion. It's fine for these so-called "Christians" to be involved in our government, but heaven forbid if a Muslim might be involved, as so recently demonstrated by one village idiot evangelical Christian right politician. It seems that the Tea Party people are the most intolerant of Muslims being in our society.

[nimrod]

It seems that the Tea Party people are the most intolerant of Muslims being in our society.

Because they confuse Islam with terrorism.

[Skinview]

No, Gloria. A non-existent God did give us no freedoms.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to use the term "rights" here. Rights are permanent, while freedom comes and goes. The US Declaration of Independence says:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

This was written by a deist, writing to an audience of theists. I am an atheist, but I agree with the main point that most rights are not something governments can grant or abolish. Rights preexist any government. If there are two people on Mars, it would be morally repugnant for one to kill the other. With or without a government, that will always be the case. Everyone has a right to life. A theist might say that this is because God made it so, but an atheist might say that we have a right to life because we have evolved to desire life and freedom. If ants evolved intelligence, they might have a different nature, and a more authoritarian outlook. But I am a man, and any government that tries to slay its people, or take their freedom, has my contempt, and rightly should be overthrown.

[Yogi Bare]

We've seen that, especially from the evangelical Christian right politicians, who seem to believe that Muslims are not on equal footing with them when it comes to freedom of religion. It's fine for these so-called "Christians" to be involved in our government, but heaven forbid if a Muslim might be involved, as so recently demonstrated by one village idiot evangelical Christian right politician. It seems that the Tea Party people are the most intolerant of Muslims being in our society.

Because they confuse Islam with terrorism.

Just because the Tea Partiers are not smart enough to be able to tell the difference between religion and terrorism, that doesn't give them a license to promote a new brand of McCarthyism, which amounts to a religious witch hunt.

The Tea Partiers are confused, period. Islam just happens to be one thing. Remember all the racist Obama signs they held up at their rallies?

[Sanslines]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to use the term "rights" here. Rights are permanent, while freedom comes and goes. The US Declaration of Independence says:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

This was written by a deist, writing to an audience of theists. I am an atheist, but I agree with the main point that most rights are not something governments can grant or abolish. Rights preexist any government. If there are two people on Mars, it would be morally repugnant for one to kill the other. With or without a government, that will always be the case. Everyone has a right to life. A theist might say that this is because God made it so, but an atheist might say that we have a right to life because we have evolved to desire life and freedom. If ants evolved intelligence, they might have a different nature, and a more authoritarian outlook. But I am a man, and any government that tries to slay its people, or take their freedom, has my contempt, and rightly should be overthrown.

Unless government decides that you are not a man as was the case with black men. If this becomes the case, then such rights no longer apply to you. You are very confused about what exactly is the 'government'. The govenment is nothing more that a collection of people, therefore when you claim that you will overthrow the government, what you are really saying is that you are intolerant of another group of people who adhere to rules that you do not want to wish to follow.

Society without rules leads to anarchy and I bet that you would not be too happy living in anarchy.

[Skinview]

Unless government decides that you are not a man as was the case with black men. If this becomes the case, then such rights no longer apply to you.

Black people have rights, no matter what the government thinks or does.

You are very confused about what exactly is the 'government'. The govenment is nothing more that a collection of people, therefore when you claim that you will overthrow the government, what you are really saying is that you are intolerant of another group of people who adhere to rules that you do not want to wish to follow.

Society without rules leads to anarchy and I bet that you would not be too happy living in anarchy.

The 'government' can be a monarchy, a communist dictatorship, a military dictatorship, a theocratic dictatorship, or someone who was elected and then seizes dictatorial powers. I think the latter was what the founders were most concerned about. Yes, I am intolerant of any of those groups of people. Perhaps you are not, but I would hope that Americans would overthrow any of them if they came to power. I have never advocated overthrowing an elected government that preserves our republican form of government. Try to imagine a future that is different than the present that you are used to, if you can.