What is freedom worth to you?

[Sanslines]

Gloria, Tiff owes you nothing more than she produces from day to day and you have long stated that you owe your people nothing more than a day's pay in exchange. Why do you suddenly expect her to have any loyalty to you or the company at all?

You are further proving my point that employees can not easily improve their situation in the manners you discussed. You see loyalty as a one-way street. You demand that Tiff be loyal to you, in that she should be improving her education for your benefit, while giving her not an ounce of loyalty in return. If she only owes you a day's work than why can't you ask that she work out her workload with her time schedule and other employees? Perhaps she can work a few 10hr days and slide some simple tasks for other employees? Perhaps she can do some of the work at home or remotely in order to get the work done? Any way you look at it, if Tiff is a good employee than you have no idea how long she will last anyway. Why not support her desire to make a better life for herself while you get a good worker? You can be very clear with her that if her school starts to have an adverse effect on her job that she will need to leave.


Too many employers, like you, expect any educational improvements to benefit the company to show how the employee is loyal to the company and easily dismiss the employee if the person has decided that a long term career change is in order because loyalty is a one-way street. Employees MUST be loyal to the company, not the other way around.

Some companies still have tuition assistant programs. I worked for one company that did and they used that benefit to attract younger workers. When some younger workers actually enrolled in a local university and accessed that tuition assistant program, the company turned around and played all sorts of games to discourage those employees from continuing their studies. Suddenly the supervisiors started to micro manage and the students work loads increased. In the end one of two things happened - the rare one or two students who decided to continue their graduate studies quit work and went to school full time and worked part time elsewhere to support their studies. Those students who did not quit would up getting C's and Incompletes for their course work.

It is no mystery that young people will move from one job to another regardless of whether they use company benefits such as tuition assistant programs. It is also no mystery that older workers are more settled, stable, reliable, and can be trained but companies still cling to old steretypes of older workers and discriminate against them.

In today's world there is absolutely no loyalty from either company or worker. Anyone who is loyal is a fool! I just had two young female workers tell me that they work for money - nothing more. They will come to work on time, do exactly what they have to do, and then go home on time. They will not volunteer to do anything or contribute if they do not get paid for it. The worker-employee situation has changed and is now clearly a kind of dance where one person tries to exploit the other person.

[Yogi Bare]

I just had two young female workers tell me that they work for money - nothing more. They will come to work on time, do exactly what they have to do, and then go home on time. They will not volunteer to do anything or contribute if they do not get paid for it. The worker-employee situation has changed and is now clearly a kind of dance where one person tries to exploit the other person.

I dunno know, Sans. It seems to me that exploitation is basically a one-way street in which it is the employer exploiting the employee, like when the employer cuts jobs and puts more of a workload on the remaining employees, rather than it being the other way around. For instance, I don't see where the two employees you talk of are in any position to exploit the company who hired them.

[Boreas]

I dunno know, Sans. It seems to me that exploitation is basically a one-way street in which it is the employer exploiting the employee, like when the employer cuts jobs and puts more of a workload on the remaining employees, rather than it being the other way around. For instance, I don't see where the two employees you talk of are in any position to exploit the company who hired them.

The employees in question cannot exploit the company. Exploitation happens when there is power. The employer generally has the power. The employees are merely working for money.....arguably working to rule, for lack of a better word. Employees will give more if there is reason to do so. A good employer will be able to show that the workers will benefit from doing extra. If that is even appropriate.

[barelynude]

In today's world there is absolutely no loyalty from either company or worker. Anyone who is loyal is a fool!

Well count me as a fool! A half hour after getting home from work I got a call from my supervisor while I was in the shower. My wife answered and handed me the phone. Seems there was a problem with a machine and he wanted to know if he could find info on my computer at work. I told him I'd make some calls and let him know when and where parts were available. After about 1/2 hour making some calls I had arraigned to have part available middle of the morning next day. Called and told him, he said thanks. I will do this for him because if I have dentist appointment or such and need say an hour off during the morning he says, "Don't put that on your time sheet". Those a level or two above him I might not do it for but this is what I do for him.

[Kouak]

The employees in question cannot exploit the company. Exploitation happens when there is power. The employer generally has the power. The employees are merely working for money.....arguably working to rule, for lack of a better word. Employees will give more if there is reason to do so. A good employer will be able to show that the workers will benefit from doing extra. If that is even appropriate.

Of course they can exploit the company. The company pays them to work hard a full day. They can take excessive breaks and not work as hard as they can, i.e., work 90% effort. But they get paid for 100% effort. Whatever you call it, it is the employee ___ing (fill in the blank) the company.

[Boreas]

Of course they can exploit the company. The company pays them to work hard a full day. They can take excessive breaks and not work as hard as they can, i.e., work 90% effort. But they get paid for 100% effort. Whatever you call it, it is the employee ___ing (fill in the blank) the company.

And if they do that enough, they will be fired.....the company will fire them.

[Kouak]

And if they do that enough, they will be fired.....the company will fire them.

It is so hard to prove unless they are on an assembly line or out in the open where everyone can see them. In many jobs, there are tons of ways to slack off a little, and no one will know.

[Gloria]

Gloria, Tiff owes you nothing more than she produces from day to day and you have long stated that you owe your people nothing more than a day's pay in exchange. Why do you suddenly expect her to have any loyalty to you or the company at all?

You are further proving my point that employees can not easily improve their situation in the manners you discussed.

You are right, Bin. I agree with you.

But this was not the original point. We got sidetracked. I originally stated that people (includes employees) can better themselves. Employees can, and many do, do it on their own time and expense.

If little Tiffany came to me and said: "Guess what Gloria....I just finished my MBA. I've been going to USC (Go Trojans) at night and weekends." I would be so pleased for her and proud. I would consider her for the next management position that opened up or maybe even create a new position just to move her up and keep her happy.

As it is I respect her for being up front with me with her request for time off....but this is a favor without any return. Oh, you know I'll help her out. I'm a softie. But I would hold her in higher esteem if she did it on her own.

A better example would be my Union "thugs".

There is an excellent training program available for my union members that actually makes union guys valuable employees. (If they stay awake during the classes).
The training takes place at nights and some weekends. No lost time for the employer (that's good) The union member (if accepted) has to pay for the course but the union "encourages" the employer to pay for half the training. (hmmm so what's in it for me?) Well a lot really. Every union guy who goes to that training is able to do a lot more technical work that can be charged at a higher rate. That means more $$$ for Gloria's off shore accounts. I don't have to pay them anymore after the training. (Union rules...raises are based on time in grade, not skills..."equal compensation" don't-cha-know) At one of our quarterly kerfuffles, I told the weasel union steward that I should pay the guys who took the training a little extra. He freaked. No way!! If I did that the union guys down the street would quit and want to work here. Can't have that. I told him that I had a guy who is useless making more than the guys who took the training...just because he has been here longer. Don't matter..that's union rules. I stormed out of that meeting very angry. But then I heard that little Gordon Gecko voice saying....leave it alone Gloria...you're making more $$$.

[barelynude]

I think I find someway to let the guys who took the training and are better workers know the union is preventing you from paying them what you think they are worth to you. Maybe if enough of them put the lean on this weasel they could get the rules changed. Or maybe they could get him a room next to Jimmy H.!

Unions have done good things for workers but they tend to loose their way and at times hold workers back. The only thing worse than a scumbag employer is the scumbag union weasel. NO I'm not calling Gloria a scumbag! But some employers are so bad they give scumbags a bad name.

(Union rules...raises are based on time in grade, not skills..."equal compensation" don't-cha-know) At one of our quarterly kerfuffles, I told the weasel union steward that I should pay the guys who took the training a little extra. He freaked. No way!! If I did that the union guys down the street would quit and want to work here. Can't have that. I told him that I had a guy who is useless making more than the guys who took the training...just because he has been here longer. Don't matter..that's union rules. I stormed out of that meeting very angry.

[Kouak]

I think I find someway to let the guys who took the training and are better workers know the union is preventing you from paying them what you think they are worth to you. Maybe if enough of them put the lean on this weasel they could get the rules changed. Or maybe they could get him a room next to Jimmy H.!

Many in the unions join the union just because they know they can work as little as possible and get away with it.

Unions have done good things for workers but they tend to loose their way and at times hold workers back. The only thing worse than a scumbag employer is the scumbag union weasel. NO I'm not calling Gloria a scumbag! But some employers are so bad they give scumbags a bad name.

I so agree with you. There are still some needs for unions even today. But unions, after having accomplished their goals, have a big bureaucracy establish with a lot of power. Those with the power want to keep it so they overreach their need and "create" issues.