Making naturism more acceptable

[Sanslines]

I think we should be clear about what we mean when we say that naturism should be more acceptable.

Naturism should be entirely acceptable - and naturists as a groupo should have opportunities to practise and should not be discriminated against in employment or other areas of life.

Public nudity, on the other hand, should be restricted so that it does not annoy or offend people.

Stu

Let's talk about a real world situation. Mr Jones goes to a secluded beach where nudity is not legal. He is sunbathing nude and laying face down on the beach. Later in the day, he sees a family - man, woman, and young child walking down the beach. He throws a towel over his bare bum to cover it so that the family would not be offended as they walk by. Even later in the day, a policeman comes down to the beach, walks up to the man, states that there has been a complaint, and writes a court appearance ticket for the man. The man eventually appears in court, pleads his case in front of a judge, loses the case, is heavliy fined, and is registered as a sex offender. The judge, as part of his ruling, states that he does not understand why anyone would want to sunbathe naked and espresses other personal opinions that make it clear that the judge is very anti-nudity. The man is subsequently forced to attempt to clear his name by hiring an attorney who spends many hours attempting to appeal the court decision and prevent the man from being registered as a sex offender. In the process of all of this, the man spends all of his money and eventually must declare bankruptcy.

Does this sound like real justice to you? Why is it that the real intentions of the nude sunbather were never taken into account? This particular nude sunbather had absolutely no intention of offending anyone - unlike a person who might deliberately walk up to people and expose himself - yet this person received a ruling that basically ruined his life.

The bottom line here is that there are two sides to every coin. Nude people may offend textiles AND textiles may offend nude people with their deliberate attempts to be offended at the slightest opportunity. There really are degrees of offense ranging from the more or less benign (person) who might nude sunbathe and has made efforts to prevent offense all the way to the person who knowingly and deliberately uses nudity to offend others.

[Stu2630]

Sanslines

Does this sound like real justice to you?

Absolutely not. Had i seen a man cover himself up like that, I would have smiled at him and said "thank you!" If what you described is a real case, rather than just hypothetical, then it certainly isn't justice.

However, if a man were to go to a non-nudist, non C/O beach and strip off in the presence of textiles and run around naked, that would be a different matter altogether.

So we have to draw a line in the sand somewhere between the two.

Stu

[Sanslines]

Sanslines



Absolutely not. Had i seen a man cover himself up like that, I would have smiled at him and said "thank you!" If what you described is a real case, rather than just hypothetical, then it certainly isn't justice.

However, if a man were to go to a non-nudist, non C/O beach and strip off in the presence of textiles and run around naked, that would be a different matter altogether.

So we have to draw a line in the sand somewhere between the two.

Stu

We have to look beyond the actions of an individual and closely look at intentions. The story that I had mentioned above is true and indicative of what occurs here.

If a person is laying in their private, fenced back yard (garden) nude and doing nothing more than enjoying the sun but someone is standing on their second floor house next door and deliberately looking out to get at glance at the naked person and then screams "I am offended" then who is really at fault here? Is it the person is has no intention to offend anyone and is laying out in his yard in what he perceives to be a protected spot or is it the next door neighbour who seeks out a spot in their house in an attempt to get some sight of the naked person so that they can scream how offended they are? We all know whose side the law is on and it is not going to be on the nude person's side regadless of intentions because of the way that laws are written.

[Stu2630]

I'm sorry Sanslines, but I can not really disagree with your arguments.

I know I am supposed to disagree with you, but I don't.

(Who says you and I can't get on )

Stu

[NudonyII]

Here's a more recent case:

http://www.wate.com/story/19009880/k...type=printable

Of course, we don't know the details: did he have a fence, was he visible from the street, etc...
But still typical of legal bias.

[Stu2630]

Here's a more recent case:

http://www.wate.com/story/19009880/k...type=printable

Of course, we don't know the details: did he have a fence, was he visible from the street, etc...
But still typical of legal bias.

It depends on the circumstances, as you say, but if he was clearly and openly visible from a neighbour's property, then he is culpable.

It could have perhaps been avoided if he had visited the neighbour first and explained what he intended to do.

Stu

[Sanslines]

It depends on the circumstances, as you say, but if he was clearly and openly visible from a neighbour's property, then he is culpable.

It could have perhaps been avoided if he had visited the neighbour first and explained what he intended to do.

Stu

Or if he erected a temporary barrier in an effort to shield the view of him...............

I know a woman who used to nude sunbathe on her second floor apartment balcony. She would prepare the balcony before sunbathing by wrapping the railings with sheets to shield any view of her. One day she was laying out on the balcony and decided to come inside for a drink of water. She stood up, came indoors, got her drink, then went back out to continue her sunbathing. A short while later, her landlady phoned and told her that a 26 year old woman with a young child and who lives a distance away and diagonally to her caught a glimpse of her from the waist up (as her bottom was still shielded as she stood up so she only saw a topless woman) and phoned the landlady threatening to phone the police. The landlady talked her out of it but admonished her tennant that if she ever received another complaint about her nude sunbathing, she would start eviction preceedings against her. A short while later, a group of Mexican landscapers for the property came by and were peering upwards towards her balcony trying to get a glimpse of the "naked lady". No doubt that they heard of this incident from the landlady.

Tell me who is really at fault here??? This is the reaction that many considerate nudists get here from the textile world and we all know which side that the laws are on.

[usuallylurk]

The key phrase here is, "if you can afford it." Many of us if not most, can't. We neither have the time nor the money to travel long distances to nudist friendly places, nor can our budgets include cruises resorts, and the ability to live in a nudist community. Clubs are hundreds of miles away, and membership fees can be prohibitive. So our options are to chance places that may be secluded enough to not be caught, or to stay indoors. Just the building permit required for my privacy fence is out of the question right now not to mention the cost of the fence.

Or, you can do what many have done. Form a non-landed group, go knocking on facilities' doors, and see if you can find a place to gather at modest cost.

Been there, done that. How do you think the various non-landed groups started? They're social clubs, run by volunteers. Can't you do the same?

[Agde]

... I know a woman who used to nude sunbathe on her second floor apartment balcony... her landlady phoned and told her that a 26 year old woman with a young child and who lives a distance away and diagonally to her caught a glimpse of her from the waist up (as her bottom was still shielded as she stood up so she only saw a topless woman) and phoned the landlady threatening to phone the police...

Of course, Sanslines, if this incident happened in your state (New York), the woman was completely within her rights to be sunbathing topfree. One response might be to bake up a batch of child-friendly cookies and go have a chat with the neighbor...

[Sanslines]

Of course, Sanslines, if this incident happened in your state (New York), the woman was completely within her rights to be sunbathing topfree. One response might be to bake up a batch of child-friendly cookies and go have a chat with the neighbor...

Except this incident happened in naturist "friendly" California where topfreedom is not legal and many people still seem to think that topfreedom is the same thing as nudity. I don't think that cookies and a chat would have helped for the 26 year old woman was very angry and outraged that another person would expose themselves and corrupt her innocent child.