Why I AM WHAT I AM!

R.M. Greenman · #1 08-27-2003, 10:58 PM

I am Pagan! I easily could have been an atheist.(HI PROMETHEUS) But many a times I have seen, in nature, what seems to be something planned. It went beyond a protective camoflage(sp?) of a common moth, but the beautiful feathers of a South Asian pheasent. I forget the breed but I could not see the reason they were there. It seemed to be more than just attracting a mate. Besides, aren't birds color blind?
I was raised primarily Christian. I went to a Methodist church and sunday school.(HI NUDIST IN TN) I learned that God/Jesus was love. Basically all the positives. I learned that God/Jesus was everwhere and everything. They knew all, loved all, incapable of hate.
The Reverend was to me a good man. Never had a problem answering the silliest questions a child could ask about God. Christianity was all fine and dandy until "THEY" came.
As a teenager I was quite content with my religion. But that is when I came across "THEM"!
The born agains! They told me that I was doomed to Hell unless I was "BORN AGAIN"! Wait! I'm a good person! I sin! I ask for forgiveness and fight against temptation!
"But, have you been born again?"
"What for?"
"Because you are born of original sin and are condemned to Hell unless you are born again!"
"So if a baby is born and dies of complications it is going to hell?"
"Yes!"
"What?!?"
" To enter the kingdom of God, you must accept Christ as your personal savior, the person you are will die and you will be born again to serve God......"
Well you all get the point! They went on to tell me that if a child was born into a Buddist family, grew up buddist, entered a Buddist Monastery and lived out his life, never actully hearing the word of Christ is going straight to hell. The Jews, because they don't accept Christ as the true Messiah, same thing.
This alone did not turn me away from Christianity. As a matter of fact, I still hold on to the values I learned from my youth.
I did though come to the conclusion that something was amiss. If God was know all/ see all, why didn't he see Eve eat the fruit? Why didn't he know that mankind would become corupt? Why did he ask Caine where he was? Why did he flood the world to rid it of wickedness and then feel bad about it? WHY did he answer a question with a question? "Where were thou when....." But wait....God cannot and has not been heard by anyone(John 5:37) except that He speaks to Moses (Exodus 33:11).
I am not going to say Jesus never exsisted, but I will say I believe alot of what was said has been corrupted through thousands of years of writing and rewriting, translations and the simple fact that much of the populas in the last nearly 2000yrs have been illiterate and read to by those who were educated and sought to control the population by fear of God.
I'll stop here for the moment otherwise I'll go on forever and I need to work in the morning. I do welcome a debate on this as I'm sure some will, and I'll leave you with this thought...If God is omnipotent, why do I need a book or a preacher to tell me what I need to know?

R.M. Greenman · #2 08-27-2003, 10:58 PM

I am Pagan! I easily could have been an atheist.(HI PROMETHEUS) But many a times I have seen, in nature, what seems to be something planned. It went beyond a protective camoflage(sp?) of a common moth, but the beautiful feathers of a South Asian pheasent. I forget the breed but I could not see the reason they were there. It seemed to be more than just attracting a mate. Besides, aren't birds color blind?
I was raised primarily Christian. I went to a Methodist church and sunday school.(HI NUDIST IN TN) I learned that God/Jesus was love. Basically all the positives. I learned that God/Jesus was everwhere and everything. They knew all, loved all, incapable of hate.
The Reverend was to me a good man. Never had a problem answering the silliest questions a child could ask about God. Christianity was all fine and dandy until "THEY" came.
As a teenager I was quite content with my religion. But that is when I came across "THEM"!
The born agains! They told me that I was doomed to Hell unless I was "BORN AGAIN"! Wait! I'm a good person! I sin! I ask for forgiveness and fight against temptation!
"But, have you been born again?"
"What for?"
"Because you are born of original sin and are condemned to Hell unless you are born again!"
"So if a baby is born and dies of complications it is going to hell?"
"Yes!"
"What?!?"
" To enter the kingdom of God, you must accept Christ as your personal savior, the person you are will die and you will be born again to serve God......"
Well you all get the point! They went on to tell me that if a child was born into a Buddist family, grew up buddist, entered a Buddist Monastery and lived out his life, never actully hearing the word of Christ is going straight to hell. The Jews, because they don't accept Christ as the true Messiah, same thing.
This alone did not turn me away from Christianity. As a matter of fact, I still hold on to the values I learned from my youth.
I did though come to the conclusion that something was amiss. If God was know all/ see all, why didn't he see Eve eat the fruit? Why didn't he know that mankind would become corupt? Why did he ask Caine where he was? Why did he flood the world to rid it of wickedness and then feel bad about it? WHY did he answer a question with a question? "Where were thou when....." But wait....God cannot and has not been heard by anyone(John 5:37) except that He speaks to Moses (Exodus 33:11).
I am not going to say Jesus never exsisted, but I will say I believe alot of what was said has been corrupted through thousands of years of writing and rewriting, translations and the simple fact that much of the populas in the last nearly 2000yrs have been illiterate and read to by those who were educated and sought to control the population by fear of God.
I'll stop here for the moment otherwise I'll go on forever and I need to work in the morning. I do welcome a debate on this as I'm sure some will, and I'll leave you with this thought...If God is omnipotent, why do I need a book or a preacher to tell me what I need to know?

#3 08-28-2003, 08:47 AM

Great beginning!

Please post more when you get in from work. I'd love to take this deeper.

Tenchi · #4 08-28-2003, 01:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by R.M. Greenman:
[qb] I am Pagan! I easily could have been an atheist.(HI PROMETHEUS) But many a times I have seen, in nature, what seems to be something planned. It went beyond a protective camoflage(sp?) of a common moth, but the beautiful feathers of a South Asian pheasent. I forget the breed but I could not see the reason they were there. It seemed to be more than just attracting a mate. Besides, aren't birds color blind?
I was raised primarily Christian. I went to a Methodist church and sunday school.(HI NUDIST IN TN) I learned that God/Jesus was love. Basically all the positives. I learned that God/Jesus was everwhere and everything. They knew all, loved all, incapable of hate.
The Reverend was to me a good man. Never had a problem answering the silliest questions a child could ask about God. Christianity was all fine and dandy until "THEY" came.
As a teenager I was quite content with my religion. But that is when I came across "THEM"!
The born agains! They told me that I was doomed to Hell unless I was "BORN AGAIN"! Wait! I'm a good person! I sin! I ask for forgiveness and fight against temptation!
"But, have you been born again?"
"What for?"
"Because you are born of original sin and are condemned to Hell unless you are born again!"
"So if a baby is born and dies of complications it is going to hell?"
"Yes!"
"What?!?"
" To enter the kingdom of God, you must accept Christ as your personal savior, the person you are will die and you will be born again to serve God......"
Well you all get the point! They went on to tell me that if a child was born into a Buddist family, grew up buddist, entered a Buddist Monastery and lived out his life, never actully hearing the word of Christ is going straight to hell. The Jews, because they don't accept Christ as the true Messiah, same thing.
This alone did not turn me away from Christianity. As a matter of fact, I still hold on to the values I learned from my youth.
I did though come to the conclusion that something was amiss. If God was know all/ see all, why didn't he see Eve eat the fruit? Why didn't he know that mankind would become corupt? Why did he ask Caine where he was? Why did he flood the world to rid it of wickedness and then feel bad about it? WHY did he answer a question with a question? "Where were thou when....." But wait....God cannot and has not been heard by anyone(John 5:37) except that He speaks to Moses (Exodus 33:11).
I am not going to say Jesus never exsisted, but I will say I believe alot of what was said has been corrupted through thousands of years of writing and rewriting, translations and the simple fact that much of the populas in the last nearly 2000yrs have been illiterate and read to by those who were educated and sought to control the population by fear of God.
I'll stop here for the moment otherwise I'll go on forever and I need to work in the morning. I do welcome a debate on this as I'm sure some will, and I'll leave you with this thought...If God is omnipotent, why do I need a book or a preacher to tell me what I need to know? [/qb]

R.M. Greenman, I do not know how tom reply to all of your posts, nor do I know how to answer your Bible questions, however I will speak from my heart. Not all Christians believe children that die are going to hell. My roommate who is non-denominatiol Christian doesn't believe that, my Catholic teacher doesn't believe that, and I certainly don't believe that. In fact I believe that Jesus loves the little children and because of this, all little children go to Heaven. After all it was the Savior in the Bible that said 'in order to make it into Heaven, one must be like a little child.' As you can plainly see not all Christians believe that children that are not baptised go to hell. In fact the majority that i have met, even believe unbaptised children don't go to hell.

Jochanaan · #5 08-28-2003, 02:31 PM

I too am saddened, Mr Greenman, by the uncharitable assumptions of the "born-agains" that you met and were forced to interact with. It is true that Jesus speaks of being born again; but I firmly believe that any who truly believe in Jesus and try to follow His example are born again. The God I know and love is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Whether we agree with the born-agains' language is merely a matter of semantics.

R.M. Greenman · #6 08-28-2003, 02:52 PM

Jochanaan, I am glad that you didn't jump on me about this post that I'm writing. Everything I have and will post on this thread are just things that have turned myself and others I know away from the church. Born agains are a small part but they were the first to scare me away from Christianity. I'll have more to come and questions that hopefully you can answer.

I have an Uncle who is a die hard Babtist, and he even rolls his eyes when "Born agains" are mentioned.

Believe me when I say that I am not anti-christian. Just a little flustered about one sect bashing the other.

Falcon46 · #7 08-28-2003, 02:53 PM

Interesting post R.M.

In fact, while I tend to agree with you on most points... it raised many more questions of my own! In regard to the retorical questions, I think it's safe to say you'll get as many different answers as there are denominations. The very fact that there ARE so many denominations leads to the obvious question: Which one represents the truth? Some tend to have similar foundations as the one closest to it, but NONE of them agree 100%, and some of the biggest are at such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I agree that the years have played havoc with the truth, and mostly to justify some person/group with the power of persuasion that they can get away with this or that, or just simply that they feel others should believe as they do, or else. And people being so gullible, so in need of something, latch onto it.

There was a post made here about a month ago by someone else (since deleted I think), that made the statement something like, "Thank God mankind will destroy itself over religion". This may not be an exact quote, but it's close and struck me very profoundly. I'm not about to attempt to go into all the connotations it brought about, but it did help me to see more clearly the shear stupidity of condemning others solely on their religious beliefs and living their lives accordingly. No one on this earth has that authority.

R.M. Greenman · #8 08-28-2003, 03:01 PM

Falcon46, I hope no one thinks I am condeming any one. I'm giving an inside on my point of view as to why.

florida-david · #9 08-28-2003, 05:46 PM

well since i and other jews do not believe in hell, i will not be going there for not believing the born-agains or those who hold similar beliefs. why is it that some religions assume that they have found "THE ANSWER" and that everyone should agree with them or go to a place that is not to nice upon death (anyone remember Dante's inferno)? a non-believer has to first believe the born agains are right to believe that your life will turn out as they predicted. i had this discussion with a good friend many years ago and we agreed to not discuss it anymore as neither could prove they were correct (but i was sure he was not going to hell as i did not believe in hell). if anyone is dead and can tell us the truth (since they are dead and know), please speak up, i think we could all use to be enlightened....

R.M. Greenman · #10 08-28-2003, 06:04 PM

O.K. Tenchi has written in her post topic that Jesus loves me and I am sure he does. My problem is not with him but with those who say they speak for him. Christians are incapable of coming together and becoming one denomination. Why in N.Ireland are the Catholics so hateful of the Protestants that they are willing to kill them, and vice versa?
Pagans are a diverse group also. But we do not shun eachother nor are we making war with eachother. I myself do not agree with many Dianics. But I will have dinner with them. I like pagan hollidays such as Sam Hain (pronounced sow-wen) Beltane,Lammas,and Imbolic. Others like the Solstices and equnoxs' and moon phases. I still love them.
Christians sometimes remind me of an old Emo skit,"I'm a Baptist!"
"So am I! Are you a liberal Baptist or a conservative?"
"Conservative!"
"So am I! Are you a Northern Conservative Babtist or a Southern Conservative Baptist?"
"Northern!"
"So am I! Are you a Northern Conservative Baptist Salt Lake region or a Northern Conservative Baptist Mid West region?"
"Salt Lake!"
"So am I! Are you a Northern Conservative Baptist Salt Lake Region council of 1889 or a Northern Conservative Baptist Salt Lake Region council of 1927?"
"Council of 1927!"
"DIE HERITIC!!!!"
I'll be back later. Something more important just came up. My children!