Government involvement in 911

[Edmontonnudist]

Just want to see what nudist/naturist opinion is on this subject. I am a canadian residing in Canada

[Boreas]

I do not believe the US government had any involvement in the events of 9/11. Never-the-less, I do believe they used it to their advantage. They never could have invaded Iraq without it for example.

[Naturist Mark]

Yes or No isn't quite descriptive enough.

A lot of us believe that there was ample warning , but for political reasons the administration "stood down" and let it happen in order to have the "second Pearl Harbor" they were looking for.

That does NOT mean that OBL and al Qaeda were not responsible for what happened. Or that any part of the government was actively complicit in the events - although ... I wish I could rule that out.

-Mark

[jon71]

I agree that there should be a greater array of choices. I don't believe that the govt. was behind it per se but the Bush administration had abundant warning that Al-Quida was planning an attack but couldn't be bothered to take it seriously. After it happened they just used it to con the public into going into Iraq under the pretense of fighting terrorism. It's easy to assume that the terrorists waited until a weak president like Bush came along to launch this attack.

[Qikdraw]

I think this is going to be another "Did President Franklin D. Roosevelt allow Pearl Harbor to be attacked?"

There are Stock questions too.

One I would like answered is why the 3rd building collapsed if no planes hit it?

Also what did hit the Pentagon? Many people in the military I have talked to said it was probably a cruise missile and not a plane.

What do I believe? I don't know. Its hard to imagine anyone allowing something like this to happen to further their own cause, but then again history is filled with examples of such. So I don't really know what to think.

Qikdraw

[Edmontonnudist]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the internet about 911 in the last 4 months. BUT,just an hour ago I came across a real good informative site,while searching for the dimensions of a boeing767. It is www.serendipity.

[tinhfwv]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Qikdraw:

One I would like answered is why the 3rd building collapsed if no planes hit it?

Also what did hit the Pentagon? Many people in the military I have talked to said it was probably a cruise missile and not a plane.

/QUOTE]

The third building collapsed because it was severely damaged by the falling towers. And if the Pentagon was not hit by a plane, then what happened to flight 77? I knew two people on that plane and they are definitely gone.

[usmc1]

In those hours and days right after 9/11 it was obvious to any rational observer that National Security Advisor Rice was prevaricating virtually everytime she talked to media. She and this administration knew they had blown it. Were they complicit? Well, I think in a way they were, but so were each of us.

Informed, well-traveled people knew about terrorism. If you'd been to Isreal, or other points in the Middle East and to England, for that matter, you saw the signs and posters and heard the public address announcements. There had already been attempts by foreign and domestic terrorists here in the U.S.A., but there was no campaign of awareness or public education. Even today when you go to the malls or where people gather there are no cautionary signs or notices about "abandoned" packages or sacks and so forth.

It is an inevitability that we will be hit again. Most likely suicide bombers or IEDs. It is not if, but when.

Well the same situation existed before 9/11. Many of us knew it was coming and were not a bit shocked or surprised when it did come. Frankly, I blew a sigh of relief when I saw the hordes of people escaping the buildings--I expected the death toll to be 10 times higher.

The complicity was that we ignored the threat. The governement complicity is that these black-hearted and cynical ba**ards in Washington capitalized on the events to further their fascist agendae. And the gutless, "loyal-oppostion" rolled over (with a couple of very courageous exceptions) and signed off on the deal.

The electronic media became cheer-leaders and house organs for the administration line..and, the masses shouted down anyone who said, "hey wait a minute,,,maybe we need to think this thing through a bit".

As to the conspiracy theories, what a load! Look, eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. When large objects collide at great speed with resulting explosion and severe heat there are always surprising and sometimes unexplainable results.

For a conspiracy to exist it would involve four airplanes, the people on those airplanes, a cruise missle or drones, or maybe even several, and the trained crews to obtain, handle, prep and launch those weapons.

I've just got to tell you any op of that magnitude would have left footprints all over the place, broken down a lot of brush, and run up one hell of a bar tab. You come forward with those footprints and that bar tab and I'll give you a listen.

Until then, I've got a lunch date with Judge Crater.

[missouriboy]

Originally posted by tinhfwv:

quote:

Originally posted by Qikdraw:

One I would like answered is why the 3rd building collapsed if no planes hit it?

The third building collapsed because it was severely damaged by the falling towers.

Where did that explanation come from? There are still questions as to why it collapsed completely into its own footprint, mimicking a controlled demolition. See earlier discussion.
(Scroll up for a couple of posts at the link.)

[usmc1]

Here's one explanation with diagrams.

http://www.answers.com/topic/collaps...d-trade-center

But, that aside, even if there exists no rational explanation for the third tower's collapse it does not follow that angry elves from fairyland brought it down, or that Bush and company brought it down, or that Guiliani brought it down to advance his overweaning political ambitions.

It merely means that some things just can't be fully explained to everyone's satisfaction. For example, no one has ever explained to me why some working class guy, living from paycheck-to-paycheck driving a beat to hell 12-year old compact pickup truck and living in a single-wide in the middle of East Cupcake would drive around sporting a Bush sticker.

But back to the WTC and 9/11, all us folks on this wing of the institution are satisfied that most of the relevant facts are known.

Those of you over in the rubber sheet, electro-shock treatment wing have different notions? Cool, ponder it between your next thorozine cocktail.

[MoonShadow]

Those of you over in the rubber sheet, electro-shock treatment wing have different notions? Cool, ponder it between your next thorozine cocktail.

Hilarious! Good description of some.

[Naturist Mark]

And if the Pentagon was not hit by a plane, then what happened to flight 77? I knew two people on that plane and they are definitely gone.

The problem is that the plane which hit the Pentagon had to do some things that a crashing plane has never ever done before - to wit: hit the lawn, but not leave any ruts, scars or bent blades of grass, and fold itself up into a compact mass without expelling any parts outside the building - including both wings and tail and engines - that compact mass then punches a hole in the building smaller than the plane's width - still without ejecting debris outside the impact circle, and then penetrate several rings of the structure while annihilating its own mass. And all this without causing a great flash of heat (the first photos showed offices with unburnt papers strewn about through the open side of the building - yet still hot enough to have consumed almost the entire identifiable mass of a passenger airplane, including large quantities of aluminum and steel.

I'm not saying it is impossible. Just that it has never happened before or since.

There are a lot of things about 9/11 that have never happened before or since - like skyscrapers falling into their own footprints due to fire.

I think it is forgivable for some skeptics to think the universe didn't have different rules on that one day. They are probably wrong, but they aren't kooks.

After years of skeptics complaining there were no photographs of plane debris anywhere on the Pentagon lawn, two photos become available showing just that - aircraft debris on the Pentagon lawn.





Can anyone spot the puzzling aspects of these two photos?

-Mark

[nacktman]

Well for starters both are pictures of the same piece of twisted metal, but at different locations (not just different angles).

The shadow cast by the twisted pieces of metal is different than the shadow cast by the building ... a different time of day under the sun in the same photograph, Hummm?

Also, there is no evidence of an explosive force contained within a fireball ... no scorching.

Could be they are
faked?!?

[Naturist Mark]

Actually I'm pretty sure both pictures were taken at almost precisely the same location. The first one was made with a telephoto lens causing the distances to be seriously foreshortened.

You may have a point about the shadows. And about the lack of charing.

Now .. if this is from an American Airlines 757, the rounded lettering could only be from just above the windows mid fuselage. Not from the bottom of the plane - so this must have been ripped free prior to the 'explosive impact' inside the building. Perhaps torn free when a wing (and huge heavy engine) sheared off just prior to disappearing without a trace. Only ... American Airlines usually does not paint their Boeing jets - yet this one appears to have light blue paint rather than a reflective bare aluminum surface like most other AA passenger jets, or the stark white that a few have (but not this one - there is a white stroke around the lettering, but the hull is blue). That particular plane must have been the exception.

Boy, there sure were a lot of exceptions on that one day.

-Mark

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:

quote:

And if the Pentagon was not hit by a plane, then what happened to flight 77? I knew two people on that plane and they are definitely gone.

The problem is that the plane which hit the Pentagon had to do some things that a crashing plane has never ever done before - to wit: hit the lawn, but not leave any ruts, scars or bent blades of grass, and fold itself up into a compact mass without expelling any parts outside the building - including both wings and tail and engines - that compact mass then punches a hole in the building smaller than the plane's width - still without ejecting debris outside the impact circle, and then penetrate several rings of the structure while annihilating its own mass. And all this without causing a great flash of heat (the first photos showed offices with unburnt papers strewn about through the open side of the building - yet still hot enough to have consumed almost the entire identifiable mass of a passenger airplane, including large quantities of aluminum and steel.

I'm not saying it is impossible. Just that it has never happened before or since.
-Mark

Nonsense. Planes that hit the ground, or buildings at over 400 mph generally convert almost all of their kenetic energy into heat. The heat of kenetic energy vaporizes the aluminum, which becomes a flamible or explosive mixture of aluminum vapor and air. Bodies become finely ground meat, or mostly flash in flames from the kenitic energy. In short, most of the airplane and all its contents vanishes into a large fireball when it hits a stationary object at high speed. We are used to seeing the results of low speed crashes, lots of bent metal. But when the speed gets high enough, and kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the speed, then the plane vanishes. There wasn't anything much left of the plane that landed in the field in Pennsylvania either. Or the Value Jet that crashed in the swamp a few years ago. Or any of several other high speed air crashes. There just isn't anything much left. Even the "black boxes" designed to survive the most sever crash, don't always make it. Just last week a private plane did about the same thing in someone's back yard in Portland OR. Not much left but a scorched area and a few wing tips. The whole plane just goes into the fury and comes out as a flaming fireball of smoke. Only a few small parts are left. That's how the physics comes out at high speed.

Blessings

Bob