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  • Abortion, Contraception, & Family Planning

    Please discuss those topics here.

  • #2
    I think contraception is a good thing.

    I think abortion is a bad thing. When arguing for choice, people have to degrade the fetus by comparing it to cancer or another type of tumor or unwanted growth. I'm not entirely sure what I feel about rape or the mother's health being in jeopardy.

    I recognize that abortion won't be leaving society anytime soon, but I do feel that Roe V. Wade and other federal laws on the subject are wrong because I personally think the decision should be in the hands of the states. With that being said, I do have suggestions as to how we could have a more effective system and prevent the senseless death of unborn children:

    1. Encourage and fund education on all levels. A woman should know exactly what happens to the fetus before she is even pregnant because in order to really make an informed decision on how you feel about a topic, you need to know everything about it.

    2. Set up an educational system (once again on all levels from family to TV ads, etc) that promotes the acceptance of pregnancy regardless of marital status. We also need more opportunities and support systems for the single mothers in our country.

    3. I think we should consider forcing the woman to talk it though with at least 3 other people who's hormone level are more stable. This is because the female body releases a plethora of hormones into the fetus and female's bodies which impairs judgment and could influence the mother to make a decision that they may not have made without the hormones.

    Family planning... you're going to have to be a little more specific here... are you talking about test tube or designer babies? Fundamentally, family planning could be as simple as having a certain number of children in mind as an ideal family size.

    I really do wish conservatives and liberals would enact some of the suggestions I have made. I view them as a win for both sides. Nobody really wants to see abortions continue at high rates. These suggestions would ultimately bring the number of abortions down.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by nakedstudent View Post
      I think contraception is a good thing.
      I agree, that's why I take issue with religious people who are against abortion but also against contraception and sex education. If you are really serious about reducing the number of abortions than the easiest thing to do is to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by nakedstudent View Post
        I think contraception is a good thing.

        I think abortion is a bad thing. When arguing for choice, people have to degrade the fetus by comparing it to cancer or another type of tumor or unwanted growth. I'm not entirely sure what I feel about rape or the mother's health being in jeopardy.

        I recognize that abortion won't be leaving society anytime soon, but I do feel that Roe V. Wade and other federal laws on the subject are wrong because I personally think the decision should be in the hands of the states. With that being said, I do have suggestions as to how we could have a more effective system and prevent the senseless death of unborn children:

        1. Encourage and fund education on all levels. A woman should know exactly what happens to the fetus before she is even pregnant because in order to really make an informed decision on how you feel about a topic, you need to know everything about it.

        2. Set up an educational system (once again on all levels from family to TV ads, etc) that promotes the acceptance of pregnancy regardless of marital status. We also need more opportunities and support systems for the single mothers in our country.

        3. I think we should consider forcing the woman to talk it though with at least 3 other people who's hormone level are more stable. This is because the female body releases a plethora of hormones into the fetus and female's bodies which impairs judgment and could influence the mother to make a decision that they may not have made without the hormones.

        Family planning... you're going to have to be a little more specific here... are you talking about test tube or designer babies? Fundamentally, family planning could be as simple as having a certain number of children in mind as an ideal family size.

        I really do wish conservatives and liberals would enact some of the suggestions I have made. I view them as a win for both sides. Nobody really wants to see abortions continue at high rates. These suggestions would ultimately bring the number of abortions down.


        Number one is a good idea but I doubt you'll like the results. Over the past 20 years from time to time conservatives push for "informed consent" laws in various states. It's never once had anything to do with informed consent (which is the law for every medical procedure without exception) but it's about pushing their propaganda and opinions on women to convince them not to have abortions. That's not going to happen nor should it be. Real info is already available but it doesn't support the anit-choice agenda.
        Number two is a very good idea. I agree completely. Something to that affect was in the Democratic platform this year.
        Number three is both absurd and insulting to women. Basically you're saying that pregnant women can't be trusted to make decisions because they're hormonal and they have to have other people "help them" decide things. I haven't heard anything more looney tunes or more offensive in a very long time. Hormones should not be equated with brian damage. Puh-lease.

        Getting back the original topic let me add some more.

        4. Comprehensive sex education. Abstinence should be mentioned but it been shown that abstinence only education is a disaster. First of all, kids in abstinence only classes have sex just as much as everybody else, it fails to actually promote abstinence. Second they're the least likely to practice safe sex, use birth control, or use it correctly when it is used. We need real and complete sex education.

        5. Increased availability of birth control. Years ago I worked at Winn-Dixie and a woman, a tourist from Germany, asked where the birth control pills were. She expected them in with the asprin and band-aids. She was very surprised when I said you had to have a prescription. Birth control pills as well as "Plan B" need to be available over the counter, no questions asked. Also it should be law nationwide (it already is a few places) that pharmacists can't deny anyone birth control. There have been a few cases where some nut-job fundy won't fill prescriptions "because it offends his/her religion". If that's the case they should resign immediately and get a different job. That's like someone joining the army but saying they'll never shoot anybody because they're a pacifist. If you want to be a pacifist, fine and dandy, but get a job that doesn't involve guns. If someone doesn't believe in birth control, fine and dandy, but get a job that doesn't involve filling prescriptions for birth control.

        It would be good to see more political teamwork, I agree. The Obama campaign did reach out to religious conservatives this year. The few anti-abortion people who even part way accepted the olive branch were heavily criticized by others on the right though. I don't think a lot of common ground will be found until the anti-choice crowd will admit they lost the battle for the hearts and minds of the American people and look for ways to address the issue that doesn't attack the legality of abortion. Sadly I don't expect that soon.

        Comment


        • #5
          Freedom to choose abortion

          If females do not have the right to choose not to reproduce themselves -- even after becoming pregnant -- then they have no freedom at all.

          If a woman, under penalty of law, is compelled to reproduce herself -- even after getting pregnant -- then she has no freedom at all.

          Pres. George W. Bush has spoken approvingly of freedom many times. And I agree. Women ought to be free too. They must not be compelled to do something that men are not compelled to do.

          Women and girls -- and men and boys -- have sex because it is a biological and psychological need. And without intending to, women and girls do get pregnant -- a dilemma that men and boys escape.

          The anti-abortion segment of society believes in punishing the part of humanity that is vulnerable to pregnancy by forcing them to continue unintended pregnancies to term. Women and girls are usually willing accomplices of the men and boys half of the human sexuality transaction.

          Men and boys pay no penalty for pregnancies.

          Why should women?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by l2ltlarry View Post

            Men and boys pay no penalty for pregnancies.
            They do and they should. It's called (court ordered in some cases) child support.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by l2ltlarry View Post

              Men and boys pay no penalty for pregnancies.

              Why should women?
              I've got to agree with Sanslines on that one. Men have a penalty and even less freedom than women do on that issue. If a woman lies to a man about being on the birth control pill and he gets her pregnant, she can make the decision to abort or not a decision that he has no say in, if she chooses to keep the baby she's legally got him on the hook for the next 18 years. I've even heard of cases where a 30ish year old woman was impregnated by a teenage boy and the courts still ordered him to pay child support. According to the law their sexual encounter was statutory rape, a sexual assault but she still got child support from her victim. If the genders were reversed they would have buried a 30 year old man who had sex with a teenage girl under the jail.

              NOTE: I'm not proposing any solutions here because I don't have any. It's not right when a woman secretly stops talking birth control because she thinks it will save a dying relationship or cause an immature boyfriend to grow up and get serious if they have a kid together. But it's also not right for a man to father a child (even accidentally or even as a result of deceit) and than not take care of his kid. Actually I rather liked when I read that some pharmaceutical company was looking into making a male birth control pill. It's been pretty slow going because unlike the female reproductive system, that's made to go into standby mode when they are already pregnant or nursing, the male reproductive system is made to to on and producing at all times. Also there's not a big outcry of men wanting such a pill so there's not that much money being put towards it. I remember when I read an article about it several women left comments that they were against it because it would just be a reason that men could go out and be promiscuous without risking a pregnancy. Perhaps, but right now women can trap a guy by lying about being on the pill and that's not fair. Plus the birth control pill is less than 100% effective, meaning that there's still a chance of a pregnancy if you are taking it. If both the woman and the man in a relationship were taking pills that were each 95% effective than the odds of an unplanned pregnancy would be effectively 0%.

              Comment


              • #8
                Perhaps, but right now women can trap a guy by lying about being on the pill and that's not fair.
                Women can also trap a guy by purposely stating falsely to the states attorney, merely to protect her boyfriend, that another man got her pregnant.

                In another situation, which I do not know as fact, but I have heard of a group of teen-agers going to the maternity ward window to see which one of them the child looks like.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by David77 View Post
                  Women can also trap a guy by purposely stating falsely to the states attorney, merely to protect her boyfriend, that another man got her pregnant.

                  In another situation, which I do not know as fact, but I have heard of a group of teen-agers going to the maternity ward window to see which one of them the child looks like.
                  Such has happened. So, why weren't the men using condoms???

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MoonShadow View Post
                    Such has happened. So, why weren't the men using condoms???
                    Isn't this a two way street, a woman has to take some responsibility for the pregnancy too, after all, it takes two to tango!

                    I don't see why men and their nasty aggressive sperm have to take the rap for pregnancy, a woman has a choice, say no or use a femidom.

                    Pete Knight

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by l2ltlarry View Post
                      If females do not have the right to choose not to reproduce themselves -- even after becoming pregnant -- then they have no freedom at all.

                      If a woman, under penalty of law, is compelled to reproduce herself -- even after getting pregnant -- then she has no freedom at all.

                      Pres. George W. Bush has spoken approvingly of freedom many times. And I agree. Women ought to be free too. They must not be compelled to do something that men are not compelled to do.

                      Women and girls -- and men and boys -- have sex because it is a biological and psychological need. And without intending to, women and girls do get pregnant -- a dilemma that men and boys escape.

                      The anti-abortion segment of society believes in punishing the part of humanity that is vulnerable to pregnancy by forcing them to continue unintended pregnancies to term. Women and girls are usually willing accomplices of the men and boys half of the human sexuality transaction.

                      Men and boys pay no penalty for pregnancies.

                      Why should women?
                      I agree with others here.

                      Also, You can't invoke "biological and psychological need" to excuse having sex for men and not for women. I found that statement very sexist and demeaning of women.

                      And then you all of a sudden throw out biology in your next statement. Last I checked, (obviously without modern techniques) sex is the only way you can get pregnant, making pregnancy a biological phenomenon, not some "inconvenience" that can be "forced" even when "unintended".

                      Furthermore, this attitude that sex is some sort of "transaction" or other business deal is absurd and is exactly what is wrong with society today. Kids need to be taught that sexuality is a precious gift and that it is something to be cherished and treated like it's part of your body. This isn't to say abstinence but a respect for yourself and a respect for other people that is transcendent of sexual activity needs to be invoked during the process.

                      Sadly, most American kids these days throw it around like it's some dirty rag, breaking off relationships because "she didn't put out enough" or "this guy I cheated on my boyfriend with was much better."

                      I think the need for a discussion about abortion in the first place is a direct result of the degradation of parent/child communication and a lack of societal acceptance of premarital motherhood.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, Pete, it is a two-way street, but it seems the emphasis on birth control is always thrown on the woman when men can use condoms. It is better if both birth control pills and condoms are used. But if you are a man and you are going to have intercourse with a woman whether on or not on the pill, wear the condom. The point is to be safe period.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MoonShadow View Post
                          Yes, Pete, it is a two-way street, but it seems the emphasis on birth control is always thrown on the woman when men can use condoms. It is better if both birth control pills and condoms are used. But if you are a man and you are going to have intercourse with a woman whether on or not on the pill, wear the condom. The point is to be safe period.
                          I don't disagree with anything you wrote, apart from the suggestion, or emphasis that it's always the mans fault. Many women carry condoms these days, and many men go out for an evening not expecting or intending to have sex, so why would they want to carry a condom?

                          If neither the man nor the woman have any form of contraception its so easy for either of them to say no, so why does it become the man's responsibility? If a man ignores a woman's refusal it is then rape, and no sane man would commit rape.

                          What I dislike is this assumption that it's automatically the mans fault, and as a man can't cause an unwanted pregnancy without a woman, the fault is therefore equally divided.

                          Or are men guilty, because they're men!

                          Pete Knight

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pete Knight View Post
                            I
                            What I dislike is this assumption that it's automatically the mans fault, and as a man can't cause an unwanted pregnancy without a woman, the fault is therefore equally divided.

                            Or are men guilty, because they're men!

                            Pete Knight

                            Pete, I am making no assumption whatsoever. If I appeared to, my apologies. It is the responsibility of both the man and the woman regardless of whether birth control pills are used only or condoms used only.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jon71 View Post
                              Number one is a good idea but I doubt you'll like the results. Over the past 20 years from time to time conservatives push for "informed consent" laws in various states. It's never once had anything to do with informed consent (which is the law for every medical procedure without exception) but it's about pushing their propaganda and opinions on women to convince them not to have abortions. That's not going to happen nor should it be. Real info is already available but it doesn't support the anit-choice agenda.
                              Number two is a very good idea. I agree completely. Something to that affect was in the Democratic platform this year.
                              Number three is both absurd and insulting to women. Basically you're saying that pregnant women can't be trusted to make decisions because they're hormonal and they have to have other people "help them" decide things. I haven't heard anything more looney tunes or more offensive in a very long time. Hormones should not be equated with brian damage. Puh-lease.

                              Getting back the original topic let me add some more.

                              4. Comprehensive sex education. Abstinence should be mentioned but it been shown that abstinence only education is a disaster. First of all, kids in abstinence only classes have sex just as much as everybody else, it fails to actually promote abstinence. Second they're the least likely to practice safe sex, use birth control, or use it correctly when it is used. We need real and complete sex education.

                              5. Increased availability of birth control. Years ago I worked at Winn-Dixie and a woman, a tourist from Germany, asked where the birth control pills were. She expected them in with the asprin and band-aids. She was very surprised when I said you had to have a prescription. Birth control pills as well as "Plan B" need to be available over the counter, no questions asked. Also it should be law nationwide (it already is a few places) that pharmacists can't deny anyone birth control. There have been a few cases where some nut-job fundy won't fill prescriptions "because it offends his/her religion". If that's the case they should resign immediately and get a different job. That's like someone joining the army but saying they'll never shoot anybody because they're a pacifist. If you want to be a pacifist, fine and dandy, but get a job that doesn't involve guns. If someone doesn't believe in birth control, fine and dandy, but get a job that doesn't involve filling prescriptions for birth control.

                              It would be good to see more political teamwork, I agree. The Obama campaign did reach out to religious conservatives this year. The few anti-abortion people who even part way accepted the olive branch were heavily criticized by others on the right though. I don't think a lot of common ground will be found until the anti-choice crowd will admit they lost the battle for the hearts and minds of the American people and look for ways to address the issue that doesn't attack the legality of abortion. Sadly I don't expect that soon.
                              I didn't mean that that woman would be legally required to follow advice from people. I was simply stating that in the hormonal stage of pregnancy, a woman might be compelled to make a decision in EITHER way that she may not have been predisposed to without being pregnant. It comes down to living with yourself afterward and setting up a support structure to deal with the decision whatever it is.

                              1. I don't view knowing what happens to a potential human life as being propaganda. It is truth and if the woman is going to make a decision, she should know exactly what that decision means.

                              2. It is impossible to disagree with either 4 or 5 above, but I stand by my words that people still need to be more open on the other end to pregnancy. We're trying to set up all these barricades for kids to not disappoint us or let us down and tell them "If you do all of this, you won't disappoint me." Part of the problem is that attitude that we send kids what to them appears to be one of nonacceptance. This tends to perpetuate the cycle because today's kids are much more rebellious by nature and sometimes do things just to tick off authority.

                              Trust me! I'm one of them!!! I know how my generation operates because I've lived it and I see it everyday in my classroom. If we were more accepting in the first place, the likelihood of them making decisions without involving their parents would shrink. If parents actually did their jobs when it comes to education and being a parent instead of a friend, the likelihood of them making wrong decisions would shrink.

                              Comment

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