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  • "Capitalism: A Love Story"

    Last night, my wife and I saw the opening of Michael Moore's new documentary "Capitalism: A Love Story". It was excellent and I highly recommend it to everyone...especially those who self-identify as conservatives.

    One of the more interesting parts of "Capitalism" was the film of President Roosevelt's State Of The Union Address in 1944, just before the end of WW2, in which he first promoted his "Second Bill of Rights". I found it interesting because I had never heard of his Second Bill of Rights and I've always been a little bit of a history buff. I came home and looked it up. This footage was apparently lost until 2008 when Michael Moore found it in S. Carolina while doing research for the movie.

    In any case, Roosevelt died before WW2 ended and before he could get his Second bill of Rights passed into law but, interestingly enough, we gave many of these rights to Germany, Italy and Japan in the Constitutions and laws we helped them write after WW2...even though we didn't...and don't...have them enshrined in U.S. law ourselves. Today's comparison's of the inadequacies of our Health Care System with much of the rest of the developed worlds Health Care Systems are a direct result of this bit of history.

    Here's the part of Roosevelt's address that's about his Second Bill of Rights. What a different world we'd live in today if he had lived to get this passed into law by Congress.



    President Roosevelt:

    "We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

    This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

    As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

    We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

    In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

    Among these are:

    -The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

    -The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

    -The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

    -The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

    -The right of every family to a decent home;

    -The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

    -The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

    -The right to a good education.

    All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

    America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens."

  • #2
    Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

    Definitely some good ideas in there. I haven't seen the movie, but Michael Moore sure has a way of making us think.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

      Let's see where we stand in FDR's "Second Bill of Rights":

      -The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

      We have the right to try to get a job, not necessarily have one. There is no way to guarantee that every person seeking a job will get one. When it comes to convicted criminals trying to make a living, we have very far to go.

      -The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

      Minimum wage laws are in effect. Can you live off of those wages, however? The fact is the higher the minimum wage goes, the higher everyday costs will go.

      -The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

      Agriculture today is big business. Small farms no longer support communities so this is almost unnecessary.

      -The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

      We generally have this today. This would tend toward capitalism, though. Give the companies a set of rules to work in and leave them alone.

      -The right of every family to a decent home;

      To live in one, not necessarily to own one. Renting is still important.

      -The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

      We have that, too. Of course the freedom from unfair competition would preclude the govt from getting too much involved in health care. No one is turned away from adequate medial care. ERs, as a rule, must serve everyone who comes in their doors.

      -The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

      We have the SSA, but how well it will hold up is in question. In fact, every one of these is in effect. Wasn't this a part of the New Deal?

      -The right to a good education.

      The majority has that. Those schools that are not doing as well must be looked at and tended to. Every president has tried to fix education in their own way to assure everyone has a good education. It is a very difficult proposal.

      Bob S.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

        BobS, Thank you for some sanity in this post.

        Mr. Moore griped the other day about capitolism and how it didnt help him. He had to find money for his first films and blah blah blah, then he became a millionaire. (THAT IS WHAT CAPITOLISM IS, MR. MOORE YOU IDIOT!!)

        Mr. Moore also invests his millions and makes money on these investments. (THAT IS WHAT CAPITOLISM IS, MR. MOORE YOU IDIOT!!) Even though he hates the military contractors, he invests in that area and made a LOTTA money. (THAT IS WHAT CAPITOLISM IS, MR. MOORE YOU IDIOT!!)

        Mr. Moore lives in the finest homes that money can buy, in a nearly all-WHITE area, while preaching to other middle class white people calling them racists if they dont live in a racially integrated area.

        Mr. Moore gets away with these movies because he is not scrutinized by the media because the media spends their efforts skewering conservative writers and putting every aspect under a microscope and the public is constantly fed this on sided news.

        I bet this movie flops.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

          Hi blackrebel, you raise some good points. I have enjoyed the Michael Moore movies I have seen. I have also watched them knowing they are pretty skewed. The one thing they do is provide material for discussion. Some things need to be exposed and discussed, even if skewed. It is when dialogue gets shut down with screams of "anti-American" or "Bush hater" etc, that we are harmed.

          I will probably watch this movie, though only when it is out on DVD. It will be interesting to see what he has to say.

          I like your new avatar.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

            Originally posted by blackrebel View Post

            Mr. Moore gets away with these movies because he is not scrutinized by the media because the media spends their efforts skewering conservative writers and putting every aspect under a microscope and the public is constantly fed this on sided news.
            Not hardly. He gets to do his movie just like anyone else would get to do their movie. The media DOES NOT spend all their efforts "skewering conservative writers...." If they did, FOX news would be in serious trouble. But they aren't and why is that? Because they are free to print and do their news as they see fit, whether truthful or not.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

              Originally posted by blackrebel View Post
              Mr. Moore griped the other day about capitolism and how it didnt help him. He had to find money for his first films and blah blah blah, then he became a millionaire. (THAT IS WHAT CAPITOLISM IS, MR. MOORE YOU IDIOT!!)

              Mr. Moore also invests his millions and makes money on these investments. (THAT IS WHAT CAPITOLISM IS, MR. MOORE YOU IDIOT!!) Even though he hates the military contractors, he invests in that area and made a LOTTA money. (THAT IS WHAT CAPITOLISM IS, MR. MOORE YOU IDIOT!!)

              Mr. Moore lives in the finest homes that money can buy, in a nearly all-WHITE area, while preaching to other middle class white people calling them racists if they dont live in a racially integrated area.

              Mr. Moore gets away with these movies because he is not scrutinized by the media because the media spends their efforts skewering conservative writers and putting every aspect under a microscope and the public is constantly fed this on sided news.

              I bet this movie flops.
              Wow, way to judge without even know all the facts. Isn't that what prejudice is all about?

              Seen a interview with him, he was on Jay Leno's new show, and both he and Jay said this movie is for everyone, conservative or liberal. Mr. Moore even said that he is not against capitalism, he just does not like what it has become and what it is today.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                Originally posted by Bob S. View Post
                -The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

                Agriculture today is big business. Small farms no longer support communities so this is almost unnecessary.
                Bob,

                Just look at the price of milk in a grocery store. Compare what dairy farmers get paid to what the middlemen charge for milk. Someone is making money and it isn't the dairy farmers who do just about all of the work to produce that milk.

                -The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

                We generally have this today. This would tend toward capitalism, though. Give the companies a set of rules to work in and leave them alone.
                Bob,

                Just look at the effect that Wal Mart has had in one town after another all across the USA. WalMart is notorious for using unfair practices to destroy their competition and eliminate competition.


                -The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

                We have that, too. Of course the freedom from unfair competition would preclude the govt from getting too much involved in health care. No one is turned away from adequate medial care. ERs, as a rule, must serve everyone who comes in their doors.
                Bob,

                We have a broken helath care system where millions have no health insurance and have no means of paying for health care. Do we tell people that they can always show up at the ER and then flood ER's across the nation with people who should not be there in the first place. ER doctors are trained to practice emergency medicine. They are not going to practice family or preventative medicine - that is NOT their specilization. In addition, I do not know if you have ever had any experience with showing up at an ER and stating that you have no way to pay for what you recieve, but what you have described is a 'theoretical' way of treating patients. In reality, patients will be hounded by the hospital to recover costs and the patient quite often receives substandard care as compared to those with insurance. This is the reality of the situation, even though hospitals will never admit to this.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                  No one is turned away from adequate medial care. ERs, as a rule, must serve everyone who comes in their doors.
                  ER's turn people away every day. If it isn't an emergency, they won't treat you - even if you have a severe chronic disease or disorder, if you aren't in imminent peril, you don't get "free" care.

                  I have personally experienced being turned away because I had no insurance and couldn't afford to pay any more than I already was.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                    Sans: "Just look at the price of milk in a grocery store. Compare what dairy farmers get paid to what the middlemen charge for milk. Someone is making money and it isn't the dairy farmers who do just about all of the work to produce that milk."

                    Do the dairy farmers get paid enough to make a decent living for his family? That was the point from FDR and what I was responding to. Whether they get paid more or less than the middlemen is irrelevant in FDR's words.

                    Sans: "Just look at the effect that Wal Mart has had in one town after another all across the USA. WalMart is notorious for using unfair practices to destroy their competition and eliminate competition."

                    We have laws that protect monopolistic and unfair practices in business. I am not a fan of Wal-Mart, but if they can compete fairly in the marketplace, then they can be successful. If they are in violation of those laws, the govt should penalize them.

                    I do not want to start yet another topic on health care, so I will reserve my thoughts to the other threads.

                    As for Michael Moore himself, I actually enjoyed his "TV Nation" show, but since then, he has gotten much more sloppy with his film making and a bit too vitriolic. From his confrontation with an Alzheimer's suffering Charleston Heston to his incorrectly reported and staged gun giveaway for opening an account at a bank (he made it look like they were giving a guns that they apparently had in stock on the same day as opening the account when in fact the set-up for the shot took over a month where he filled out all forms and waited for the requisite background check time--not to mention the bank would not have provided the gun and he would have to go get it himself), the "Bowling for Columbine" mockumentary (it sure wasn't a true documentary ) was a joke.

                    I just can't trust him to tell the truth in anything.

                    Bob S.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                      Quote: We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

                      This is where we were as a nation indeed the entire world was and as a result many nations Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain to name a few went down the path of right wing totalitarianism. This benefited the wealthy industrialists especially those with arms or munitions businesses. America and other nations flirted with this as well as communism. It was only through the creative programs FDR instituted that we avoided falling into the same hole.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                        Originally posted by blackrebel View Post

                        I bet this movie flops.
                        Last weekend the movie was a tie for 6th place. Fantastic for a documentary. To bad it was only released to a little over 900 theaters.
                        It could have ranked much higher.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                          Originally posted by Bob S. View Post
                          Sans: "Just look at the price of milk in a grocery store. Compare what dairy farmers get paid to what the middlemen charge for milk. Someone is making money and it isn't the dairy farmers who do just about all of the work to produce that milk."

                          Do the dairy farmers get paid enough to make a decent living for his family? That was the point from FDR and what I was responding to. Whether they get paid more or less than the middlemen is irrelevant in FDR's words.
                          Do dairy farmers get paid enough to make a decent living? Nope as many are living in poverty. This is just a typical example of what dairy farmers are going through:

                          Dairy Cows Head for Slaughter as Milk Prices Sour

                          Prices for milk now are about half what it costs farmers to produce the staple, and consumer prices are falling. Unless the market can be bolstered, industry officials project that more than 1.5 million of the nation's 9.3 million milking cows could be slaughtered this year as dairy operators look to cut costs and generate cash.

                          As of Feb. 2, the price farmers receive for a gallon of milk has been 80 cents a gallon, less than half the $1.65 a gallon the California Department of Food and Agriculture estimates it costs to produce.

                          http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/16-11

                          "Just look at the effect that Wal Mart has had in one town after another all across the USA. WalMart is notorious for using unfair practices to destroy their competition and eliminate competition."

                          We have laws that protect monopolistic and unfair practices in business. I am not a fan of Wal-Mart, but if they can compete fairly in the marketplace, then they can be successful. If they are in violation of those laws, the govt should penalize them.
                          Walmart routinely and openly practices monopolistic and unfair trade practices in spite of laws which prohibit it.

                          Wal-Mart's "Project Impact": Retailer's New To Crush The Competition

                          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_280831.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                            Micheal Moore has been proven to be a liar about many things. Most people have not seen that he is being sued for editing one of his 911 movie, turning a war vet's words around and making it appear that he was against the war. The vet asked for a public apology, and Moore refused to simply apologize , so the vet sued. Since the media gave Moore raving reviews, they didnt follow up on the suit so the public has no idea that Moore lied. he then did it again in the movie Sicko. Where is the media coverage on his deception? .

                            The farmers are being screwed 24/7 and they are the backbone of society. In fact when we go to the back wood cottage, we buy directly from them instead of packing food and taking it with us. This screwing has gone on no matter what party is in office and needs to end. Also keep in mind that prices of food are increasing due to food corn crops being decreased for the ethanol corn crops.

                            We ARE a capitolistic country, and it has flaws. It is not pure capitolism, which is for a reason. We have a RIGHT to pursue, but it is not guaranteed. That is where many people get off track. Perceived rights. As people try to make their hopes and wishes 'rights', they are going to be challenged. At that point they have 2 choices. Fight or leave the US. If they leave, fine. If they stay, fine. But, the issue is this ... if they want to impose these wants as 'rights', they will be challenged and these people need to have to understand that they will be challenged and stopped in most cases. Theiy society that they are searching for exists ... ELSEWHERE. They have no right to demand changes without being challenged. What makes THEIR views and wants more important than the rest of the country? I dont want what is not mine if I didnt earn it. It is not my concern to screw the wealthy. It is not my need to take others down for living their dreams. We would not punish LeBron, or Madonna, or Brad Pitt or his wife, or Tiger, or Favre, for thier bloated bonuses, but we want to punish an executive for making just a fraction. Even those execs are punished selectively, based up on who they are friends with. Fannie Mae is worse than Enron and others, yet Fannie Mae leaders are where now? Advising the president. WTA?

                            Some people DO have advantages. That is called LIFE. I also see that many who are dis-advantaged are ABLE but dont know how improve. Many are dis-advantaged and are held down by family, friends and worse of all, but SELF. Ther library is full of books of those who started in the worst poverty and are now running major companies. THESE books and stories are shunned by the dis-advantaged who opt instead to listen to music, playing sports, learning the new dance, and having babies. I know because I live in this quagmire. I see it daily. I see it walk by my house daily and destroy the neighborhood. These dis-advantaged dont know better and giving them money and freebies does not help, only hinders their growth. GIVING them 'hope' does nothing if 'hope' is simply giving them more. Giving them jobs does nothing if they dont know what to do with their money.

                            I have seen too many people raise up from poverty from taking positive steps. Too bad that these positive steps does not register with so many.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "Capitalism: A Love Story"

                              Originally posted by blackrebel View Post
                              Micheal Moore has been proven to be a liar about many things. Most people have not seen that he is being sued for editing one of his 911 movie, turning a war vet's words around and making it appear that he was against the war. The vet asked for a public apology, and Moore refused to simply apologize , so the vet sued. Since the media gave Moore raving reviews, they didnt follow up on the suit so the public has no idea that Moore lied. he then did it again in the movie Sicko. Where is the media coverage on his deception? .
                              Here's the mainstream media ignoring the controversy and not reporting on the suit from that Iraqi war veteran.

                              http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/



                              http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm

                              http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...koch_6_28.html

                              http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/01/fahrenheit.suit/

                              http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movi...ref=newssearch

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