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Comparison:30YW in Germany to modern War on Terror

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  • Comparison:30YW in Germany to modern War on Terror

    Seeing how the War on Terror could easily become bogged down by the mere nature and recalcitrance of the enemy, I remembered a quote from "The Thirty Years' War" by Geoffrey Parker. This war took place in Germany from 1618 to 1648 and eventually involved all of Central and most of Western Europe.

    This quote is "As long as an almost landless ruler like Amalia of Hesse could maintain 10,000 and more men in arms, despite 25 years of continous hostility on the part of the Holy Roman Emperor, the war in Germany might indeed last forever."

    Terrorist groups, by combining judicious use of modern weapons techonology with an alarming lack of personal conscience, do damage to materiel and morale in a volume vastly disproportionate to their actual numbers. This makes it extremely difficult to erode the resource base required for a terrorist group to wage its war, because it doesn't need a large base of resources to begin with. To keep it's war going, all a terrorist group really needs to do is keep inflicting damage, have a great deal of faith in its cause, and an incredible amount of patience. That doesn't mean that they will win, but it does mean that they can delay final defeat seemingly indefinitely.

    In fact to make another allusion to the 30YW above, it is rather significant that that peace finally happened after most if not all of the most recalcitrant personalities (Emperor Ferdinand II, Count von Tilly, Duke Albrecht von Wallenstein, King Gustavus Adolphus, Count Frederick V of the Palatinate all come to mind very quickly) were dead. Given the natures of Osama bin Laden, Cleric al-Sadr, and others running similar gangs of thugs, it may come down to killing every single one of them because they would literally rather die than admit defeat they can't win.

    Doesn't bode well, does it?

    Doug H.

  • #2
    Seeing how the War on Terror could easily become bogged down by the mere nature and recalcitrance of the enemy, I remembered a quote from "The Thirty Years' War" by Geoffrey Parker. This war took place in Germany from 1618 to 1648 and eventually involved all of Central and most of Western Europe.

    This quote is "As long as an almost landless ruler like Amalia of Hesse could maintain 10,000 and more men in arms, despite 25 years of continous hostility on the part of the Holy Roman Emperor, the war in Germany might indeed last forever."

    Terrorist groups, by combining judicious use of modern weapons techonology with an alarming lack of personal conscience, do damage to materiel and morale in a volume vastly disproportionate to their actual numbers. This makes it extremely difficult to erode the resource base required for a terrorist group to wage its war, because it doesn't need a large base of resources to begin with. To keep it's war going, all a terrorist group really needs to do is keep inflicting damage, have a great deal of faith in its cause, and an incredible amount of patience. That doesn't mean that they will win, but it does mean that they can delay final defeat seemingly indefinitely.

    In fact to make another allusion to the 30YW above, it is rather significant that that peace finally happened after most if not all of the most recalcitrant personalities (Emperor Ferdinand II, Count von Tilly, Duke Albrecht von Wallenstein, King Gustavus Adolphus, Count Frederick V of the Palatinate all come to mind very quickly) were dead. Given the natures of Osama bin Laden, Cleric al-Sadr, and others running similar gangs of thugs, it may come down to killing every single one of them because they would literally rather die than admit defeat they can't win.

    Doesn't bode well, does it?

    Doug H.

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    • #3
      Doug,
      I really cringed while reading your posting. I diden't much like what you had to say, but had to recognized the sad truth of it. It seems that for ever snake we kill in that that "garden" called the middle east, two more slitther in to take its place. It is costing so many lives, innocent and combatant, on both sides. I feeds on hate, greed and intolarance. Unfortunately it will most likely not resolve anything. We are dealing with a culture totally unlike our own in values and beliefs who want modern things in the world but also want to keep all the ways of their culture long past. We as a country can not make them change. The only change that will accomplish anything of lasting value will have to come from within their society. As their society is currently structured though, I really doubt that will happen any time soon. Sad but true! Sawdust

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      • #4
        That doesn't mean that they will win, but it does mean that they can delay final defeat seemingly indefinitely.

        I think the terroists are basically always winning on a small level and will never lose, because there will always be terrorists. But keep in mind, when I say they are always winning, I don't mean I think your society is ever going to be in serious danger from them, just a little bit of paranioa, that's all.

        Namedun [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

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        • #5
          Very scary and I'm afraid probably very true.

          Those who fail to learn from history...

          Thanks for posting this Doug.
          NuTex

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          • #6
            Doug,
            Like me you're obviously a student of history. I was wondering what your opinion was on something.

            Many are comparing Iraq to Vietnam but wouldn't you say it bares a closer resemblance to the French failure in Algiers?

            It looks more like it to me.
            NuTex

            Comment


            • #7
              Here's an interesting link on the subject of Algeria. Algerian War of Independence

              The part titled "Beginning of Hostilies" is haunting in it's similarities to Iraq right now.
              NuTex

              Comment


              • #8
                I guess I'm most tempted to compare present-day Iraq to 1920's Iraq after the British liberated Iraq from the Ottoman Empire. Within years, not months, eventually the Iraqis united against the British and drove them out despite the Brits need for oil.

                namedun (of Canada) wrote:
                quote:
                I don't mean I think your society is ever going to be in serious danger from them, just a little bit of paranioa, that's all.
                I have to nitpick on this statement. Islamic extremists pose a grave threat to everyone in any country. In particular, all Western countries, not just the United States, are targets. Canada (my country too!), being the major Western military presence in Afghanistan now, is certainly in the scopes of Al Quaida and we have to assume it is only a matter of time before a major terrorist attack happens here.

                Finally, though terrorists may be small in number, it is becoming easier for a few of them to kill thousands of people. And then once countries like Iran get nuclear weapons...

                In the 80's, the U.S. inflicted the final blow on the Soviet Union by massively funding Islamic fundamentalists in their takeover of once, relatively secular Afghanistan. Now in Iraq, the secular Baathists are being eliminated and Islamic extremists are rising to fill the power vacuum. Indeed, we do live in interesting times.

                I've said it before and I'll say it again: America has got to start (re-start) using its brains more than its brawn or else we're all in deep doo-doo.

                Comment


                • #9
                  hm0504 wrote,
                  quote:
                  In the 80's, the U.S. inflicted the final blow on the Soviet Union by massively funding Islamic fundamentalists in their takeover of once, relatively secular Afghanistan. Now in Iraq, the secular Baathists are being eliminated and Islamic extremists are rising to fill the power vacuum. Indeed, we do live in interesting times.
                  Very good point. I fear the possibility of an Islamic Republic of Iraq allied with Iran.

                  quote:
                  I've said it before and I'll say it again: America has got to start (re-start) using its brains more than its brawn or else we're all in deep doo-doo.
                  Right on target.
                  NuTex

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    namedun wrote,
                    quote:
                    But keep in mind, when I say they are always winning, I don't mean I think your society is ever going to be in serious danger from them, just a little bit of paranioa, that's all.

                    I certainly don't think one day an Islamic terrorist will be setting up shop in the Oval Office, if that's your point. If I understood you correctly then we agree on that.

                    But there's a quality of life issue, IMHO. One, no people can allow the threat of a terroism to regulate their policy, foreign or domestic. Second, there is some truth that since they hit us before we are indeed now targets and action has to be taken to stop terrorism.

                    The issue is what's the best policy. I don't believe Iraq was truly part of the war on terror. In fact I think it's going to empower terrorists. Without rehashing the issue I still stand by my view the war was about oil.
                    NuTex

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      NuTex,
                      You may be right that it is all about oil, but it certainly is not about getting cheeper oil. The price here in So. Cal. is on average $2.13 per gal at the cheeper stations. You can add on another seven or more cents for the brand name stuff. The justification I hear for the higher US prices is that in Europe they are paying $3.00 per gal or more. Since when has that become a ligimitate argument? They have a totally different society and inferstructure. Americans are dispersed to the outsides of cities. Most of Europes populations live close to or within their cities. They are not as extensively geared to being a society on wheels as we in the US are.
                      Sawdust

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Right, but this is only speculation unless you know the budget figures for shipping and producing oil. I mean, yeah Europeans might not drive as much, but they have fewer gas stations, that are centralized in cities, so wouldn't it make sense that it would be cheaper to refeul these stations? For the same reasons, it would be more costly to ship oil all the way to remote ares inside souch a large country as the US. (That's speculation too)....One thing is for sure, people will complain about gas prices rising, but we are going to be running out of it sometime within my generation.

                        Namedun [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

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                        • #13
                          Before you can make conclusions about gas price differences in different countries, you have to know the amount of tax per gallon. I think it's more in Europe than USA. Anybody know?

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                          • #14
                            The primary thing about oil is not the price or how much the US gets from the Middle East, rather it is who controls oil. He who contols oil, controls much of what makes the world tick -- the rest (eg. price) follows.

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                            • #15
                              All very good comments above. Terrorism is hard to deal with but not impossible.
                              As far as oil goes, I think it is about profit. The man in the white house has ties to big oil and favors big business. Why keep the price down when there is more profit to be made by raising it? As far as running out of the supply goes, we have been making synthetic oil for anumber of years and there is no reason that a man made substitute for gasoline cannot be developed.

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