CIA and Torture part Deux

[nacktman]

Read a report the other day that John McCain and his "Liberal" cronies have forced Herr bushie to accept the ban on torture.

A victory for the good guys.

Now, with the mounting evidence of, corruption, criminality, mental defectiveness, decitfulness, (I could go on, but no need to) etc., in this administration, we may be able put this country back on the correct path by placing more honest and capable people in office.

[Naturist Mark]

Actually McCain had to negotiate a compromise. Fortunately the administration had to accept most of the compromise.

Anybody else old enough to be astonished that in the United States of America we had to negotiate a compromise about torture? This is proof positive that America is NOT a Christian nation.

-Mark

[nacktman]

Right there with you Mark.

Compromise on the Ban for now, in full measure when enlightened souls ascend and the benighted fall.

[sw1sweendog]

sure,and the terrorist get away with murder....again.

[Naturist Mark]

quote:

Originally posted by sw1sweendog:
sure,and the terrorist get away with murder....again.

Name one case where torture has made the difference. The problem with torture is that it is only effective at extracting what the torturer wants to hear - not the truth.

We now know that one of the major 'nuggets' of intelligence used to justify the Iraq war was false testimony about al-qaeda/Iraq links extracted by torture (which the CIA discounted at the time as untrue, but was not reported as such to US Congressmen).

Torture doesn't improve the information received from prisoners - it does the opposite

Torture puts the US at odds with international law, domestic law, and tarnishes what is left of our former moral stature.

Torture makes our troops less secure.

Torture is an affront to the conscience of any moral person. If you torture, or support torture DO NOT EVER claim to be a good Christian, Jew, Moslem, Pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, or any other faithfull member of a religion of good will.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5197853/site/newsweek/
http://www.robertscheer.com/
http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/13299850.htm
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

[usmc1]

quote:

Originally posted by sw1sweendog:
sure,and the terrorist get away with murder....again.

Hey listen up a minute, will you? The smoking lamp is lit and I need your complete attention so settle in and open your ear-holes.

I understand clearly what you mean and where you're coming from. I've been there and done that, etc. A little det cord wrapped around the neck or a forty-five jammed down a throat will generally loosen a tongue damned quick.

But, as 2-Section type working first at company then the regimental level then as a civilian "contractor", I can assure you with complete confidence that torture is the least effective way to extract information--even down at the field level.

The "information" gotten by torture is rarely, if ever, reliable. It just isn't, it can't be trusted without using other data to test it. It can be satisfying to the gizzard, but the data ain't helpful.

There are more reliable and effective methods of extracting, gathering and processing information than torture. And, as to the ticking bomb scenario, two points: One, if we've gotten to the point that we know of a ticking bomb we will know the who, how and when--otherwise it is disinformation. Two, if we know of a ticking bomb and don't know the rest then we have effectively blown it anyway.

Finally, yes when I started out in a line company and even while at the battalion level, I did bend some rules--broke them little suckers actually--but the end result was squat.

I thought I was doing great stuff but I wasn't. Now that I am older and wiser and more experienced, I want to assure you, and others, that the moral and human principles behind our country's position on torture trump all the arguments for it.

We do not conquer dictators by becoming a dictatorship ourselves and we do not rid our house of roaches by becoming roaches ourselves and we do not spread freedom and democracy by becoming torturers, and launching Stalinistic domestic spy programs and secret "black" prisons....

[MJ_KC]

Bush and company have gone way over the line in what they have approved in their belief that they were protecting us.

They are doing major harm to the country when they support torture of prisoners and domestic spying on anti-war protestors. I voted for Bush twice, but there is no way that I would vote for him a third time if it was possible for him to run again.

These policies are damaging to the reputation of the United States and play right into the hands of the terrorists. They seek to damage or destroy the United States and we do not need to have our government assisting them in this.

[sw1sweendog]

im not saying tourture them ,but a good interrogation would be nice.wich might include different methods.water,cold music.darkness solotude.what are we supposed to do with the top people of these terrorist groups when we catch them.ask them nicley,"who you gonna bomb next"no answer."ok you can go now"

[Guest]

The problem in the recent past has been that these techniques have been used on people who can't tell us anything.

[True Brit]

During the morning of 9/11, 3000+ people were brutally slaughtered. The people of London and Madrid targeted and also murdered in an act of sheer barbarity with countless attacks on western people and interests around the world.

We entrust our goverments to do whatever means possible to ensure the safety of us and our loved ones and if this means that it pushes the boundries of human decency then so be it.

[nimrod]

quote:

Originally posted by True Brit:
We entrust our goverments to do whatever means possible to ensure the safety of us and our loved ones and if this means that it pushes the boundries of human decency then so be it.

First, SCARY.
Second, when we become them, who stops us?

[BeachBum]

Interesting thread -- I would really be interested in hearing the opinions of our fellow nudists in Iraq, Iran, other areas of the middle east, the former Soviet Union, China, etc, etc, etc..... OH, thats right. They don't have the freedom to *****, complain, second guess their elected officials.... OH, I guess I slipped there too.. they don't have elected officials.

Quit your complaining, get naked, and relax!

BB

[MJ_KC]

quote:

Originally posted by True Brit:
During the morning of 9/11, 3000+ people were brutally slaughtered. The people of London and Madrid targeted and also murdered in an act of sheer barbarity with countless attacks on western people and interests around the world.

We entrust our goverments to do whatever means possible to ensure the safety of us and our loved ones and if this means that it pushes the boundries of human decency then so be it.

We don't want to turn it into a situation where the terrorists can get us to drastically change or destroy our way of life in order to stop all attacks from ever happening.

If we do that, the terrorists have succeeded and we have already lost.

[Pieguy]

Shhh! *claps hand over collective mouth* Don't talk about the CIA. The walls have ears.... *karate-chops a hidden camera*

[Naturist Mark]

quote:

During the morning of 9/11, 3000+ people were brutally slaughtered. The people of London and Madrid targeted and also murdered in an act of sheer barbarity with countless attacks on western people and interests around the world.

We entrust our goverments to do whatever means possible to ensure the safety of us and our loved ones and if this means that it pushes the boundries of human decency then so be it.

I had this dream, nay, a nightmare ... where we were beset by terrorists, so we set to protect ourselves from them by becoming terrorists. We were beset by arsonists, so we went about setting fires. We were beset by high drug costs for our seniors, which we attacked by making their drugs more costly and making it illegal to buy them where they are cheaper. We were beset by budget deficits, which we attacked by cutting taxes and increasing spending. Then the dream got really interesting when we decided to tackle the problem of teen promiscuity ...

-Mark