Riots in Paris

[zuma]

It's sad to hear about the violence and killings every day, I hope all our friends in Paris are safe, and the authorities can round up these animals responsible for turning a great city a violent cesspool.

It's truly a shame to see a culture of violence decsend upon a great, historic city. I'm reminded of my own great state's decent into anarchy aboug 15 years ago, with the LA riots.

[zuma]

It's sad to hear about the violence and killings every day, I hope all our friends in Paris are safe, and the authorities can round up these animals responsible for turning a great city a violent cesspool.

It's truly a shame to see a culture of violence decsend upon a great, historic city. I'm reminded of my own great state's decent into anarchy aboug 15 years ago, with the LA riots.

[krcNY]

I hate watching the news, it is so depressing.

People being destructive towards historical buildings, businesses and people.....why? It takes them only seconds to ruin peoples lives for years or even forever, and they don't even care. Hopefully the police can control things quickly in Paris and all the other cities with big issues too.

[zuma]

Looks like things are going from bad to worse... The violence is spareading. Jesus... France has an unemployment rate of 25% for people under 25, and 10% overall.

Combine that with a downtrodden underclass, and you have a recipe for disaster. I had no idea they were in so bad a shape. That's not condoning the killing and violence going on there, of course. I just hope things work out for them. It's very scary.

[NudeAl]

It wouldn't be the first time the under privileged classes have raised a little hell over there. Good thing no one is suggesting, let them eat cake! I thought France was a socialist based government? Surely they are taking care of the proletariat?

[hm0504]

quote:

Originally posted by NudeAl:
It wouldn't be the first time the under privileged classes have raised a little hell over there. Good thing no one is suggesting, let them eat cake! I thought France was a socialist based government? Surely they are taking care of the proletariat?

A lot of the uprest is from the immigrant, largely Muslim, community. Muslims now make up close to 15% of the French population and, because of their high birth rate and the low birth rate of non-immigrant France, also make up a very large percentage of the youth.

Frankly, when a country has a large immigrant population that is not adequately integrating with the traditional society, one is going to see a cultural clash. In France, we see it as riots; in Britain last summer, we saw it as terror attacks, by immigrant Britons not foreigners, on the transit system.

A few years ago, France started taking tough measures such as banning religious dress at public schools and censoring religious hate speech. However, unless France can make real progress on integration, the stats suggest it will be very much a strict, Muslim country in a number of decades.

For Canada and the U.S., we need to start asking ourselves what kind of policies are needed to ensure sufficient integration so that our freedoms are not in danger from imported religious fundamentalism.

[Revolutionary]

What if people in "the religion of peace" refuse to integrate?

[hm0504]

quote:

Originally posted by Revolutionary:
What if people in "the religion of peace" refuse to integrate?

I think that is the billion dollar question. Unfortunately, the term "integration" is necessarily very subjective and so, much as I hate to do it, one has to bring in certain requirements that make it difficult not to be integrated. I think France's dress code for public schools is a very sensible example of this.

I think countries have to make strong integration requirements regarding the upbringing of immigrant children (e.g. they must attend public schools). I also think, as much as I despise censorship, religious hatred must be banned. Many European countries and Canada, as well, have some limits in this regard. As much as I cringe at limits to speech, if the choice is between banning hate speech or having my local buses blown up, I'll go for banning hate speech.

[NudeAl]

I think we are already seeing something to this effect here in the states.

We have a number of immigrant populations who refuse to even learn to speak English. I have nothing against holding on to your heritage but you must realize when you move to another country you should be prepared to try to assimilate into their culture. By the way my father immigrated to this country from Denmark in the 1960's and my cousin immigrated to Australia. Both have become naturalized citizens of their respective countries and both speak the language of their new countries, albeit with a bit of an accent.

Immigrants used to seem to try harder to become a part of their new nation, many even going to far as to change their names. I wonder why this is no longer the case?

[hm0504]

quote:

Originally posted by NudeAl:
I think we are already seeing something to this effect here in the states.

We have a number of immigrant populations who refuse to even learn to speak English. I have nothing against holding on to your heritage but you must realize when you move to another country you should be prepared to try to assimilate into their culture. By the way my father immigrated to this country from Denmark in the 1960's and my cousin immigrated to Australia. Both have become naturalized citizens of their respective countries and both speak the language of their new countries, albeit with a bit of an accent.

Immigrants used to seem to try harder to become a part of their new nation, many even going to far as to change their names. I wonder why this is no longer the case?

The issue of African/Middle-Eastern Muslim integration is particularly problematic because one is dealing with a culture with a very strict religious view that opposes so much of what we regard as basic rights and freedoms. If I had to move to, say, Brazil, I think I could do it because even though the culture and language are different, there is still a reasonably acceptable equivalence of freedoms and rights there. But if I had to move to say an English-speaking country with a culture similar to the U.S.'s or Canada's, except that it required women to wear burkhas, where most art and speech was banned, as was political thought, etc, I wouldn't like it a bit.

Let me emphasize that there are African/Middle-Eastern Muslims who do integrate reasonably well. My problem is with the rather large segment that does not. That, to me, is just a recipe for disaster.

[Trailscout]

The Amish are equally separatist from mainstream American society and we celebrate their distinctiveness. By contrast, there are colonies of radical Islamists in Canada, UK and France that are in conflict rather than coexistence with society at large.

In Atlanta I see better integration of Muslims into the working world than elsewhere.

There are some more recent immigrants who are a bit more clannish, but I see no immediate worry about riots.

[hm0504]

quote:

Originally posted by Trailscout:
The Amish are equally separatist from mainstream American society and we celebrate their distinctiveness. By contrast, there are colonies of radical Islamists in Canada, UK and France that are in conflict rather than coexistence with society at large.

In Atlanta I see better integration of Muslims into the working world than elsewhere.

There are some more recent immigrants who are a bit more clannish, but I see no immediate worry about riots.

Hey, watch out for those Amish!

I have no problems with religious sects that want to be their own little distinct group as long they respect basic human rights and are peaceful. However, a religious sect, large or small, that does not respect basic human rights and is prone to violent behaviour is something altogether different.

In the U.S., the number of Muslims is probably about 1% of the population; in Canada, it is about 3% so, yes, there are more Muslims per capita here. I would also agree that of those there may be a higher percentage of radical Muslims in Canada too.

[Revolutionary]

Nude Al, at least most immigrants to the USA are from Hispanic nations and so we share the same religion -- and in the case of Mestizos (mixed European and Indian blood) some of the same ties to western civilization.

Islam and Christianity share many beliefs but Islam is far less tolerant of divergence of opinion (Muslims can seek converts in all Christian nations but few Islamic nations tolderate any Muslims converting and some families will kill a member that leaves Islam in nations like Pakistan).

If a Methodist church suddenly could be beamed into many Muslim nations -- right into the capital city -- how long would it last? However, would Christians destroy a mosque if it suddenly appeared in their city?

[hm0504]

quote:

Originally posted by Revolutionary:
Nude Al, at least most immigrants to the USA are from Hispanic nations and so we share the same religion -- and in the case of Mestizos (mixed European and Indian blood) some of the same ties to western civilization.

Islam and Christianity share many beliefs but Islam is far less tolerant of divergence of opinion (Muslims can seek converts in all Christian nations but few Islamic nations tolderate any Muslims converting and some families will kill a member that leaves Islam in nations like Pakistan).

If a Methodist church suddenly could be beamed into many Muslim nations -- right into the capital city -- how long would it last? However, would Christians destroy a mosque if it suddenly appeared in their city?

Actually, in many Muslim countries, there are Christian churches: Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq to name some. Indeed, Iraq's former deputy prime minister under Saddam Hussein was a Chaldean Christian. Of course, in Iraq now, Christians are particular targets in the current civil war.

[KirkOntario]

quote:

Originally posted by hm0504:Actually, in many Muslim countries, there are Christian churches: Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq to name some. Indeed, Iraq's former deputy prime minister under Saddam Hussein was a Chaldean Christian. Of course, in Iraq now, Christians are particular targets in the current civil war.

Sadly Christians and Jews have abandoned much of the middle east due to persecution. There used to be both Christians and Jews in Iraq but most have left due to intolerance of Muslim extremism.