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The Long War (Iraq)

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  • The Long War (Iraq)


  • #2
    Which reasons though? The reasons given have changed so many times after their previous reasons were proven false.

    Saddam is a complete jerk, of this everyone agrees. But should we have invaded Iraq? No.

    Qikdraw

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    • #3
      I voted NO.

      The reasons we were given for starting the war, turned out to be bogus. We had another terrorist to take care of first, before we went after Sadamm (without the UN's blessing).

      Now that the war has been started, it would be wrong to pull out now. We need to support our Troops and pray they finish the job quickly and get home safely.

      Comment


      • #4
        Take a look at your atlas or globe. Then find out how many permanenet air bases we're building in Iraq.

        Ok, got it?

        The war was never about WMDs, bringing democracy to the middle east, rididng the world of a cruel dictator, protecting American citizens from terrorist, restoring the Marsh Arabs environment or any other nonsense.

        Look at your globe and ponder those permanent air bases and you'll catch a glimmering of why the wealthy elites have our kids fighting in Iraq.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by krcNY:
          I voted NO.

          The reasons we were given for starting the war, turned out to be bogus. We had another terrorist to take care of first, before we went after Sadamm (with the UN's blessing).

          Now that the war has been started, it would be wrong to pull out now. We need to support our Troops and pray they finish the job quickly and get home safely.
          To my recollection, the UN did NOT support the current Iraq war.

          The U.S. is in far less control of Iraq now than it was in April 2003; either the U.S. has lost in Iraq already or it has a long way to go before it can "finish the job".

          Comment


          • #6
            An interesting point was made by Thom Hartmann the other day ... We shouldn't be calling the Iraq mess a "War" any longer. The war ended when Saddam's government fell. What we have now is an occupation - and all that comes with an occupation - insurgency, resistance, civil unrest.

            Soon enough we can call it a war again when we decide to recognize the civil war that has aleady begun between the Sunni's and Shiite's. Of course our troops are perfectly able to end THAT war too - just as soon as someone tells them what side we are on.

            -Mark

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            • #7
              An interesting point was made by Thom Hartmann the other day ... We shouldn't be calling the Iraq mess a "War" any longer. The war ended when Saddam's government fell. What we have now is an occupation - and all that comes with an occupation - insurgency, resistance, civil unrest.

              Soon enough we can call it a war again when we decide to recognize the civil war that has already begun between the Sunni's and the Shiite's. Of course our troops are perfectly able to end THAT war too - just as soon as someone tells them what side we are on.
              Touche, Mark.

              It's like Deja Vu all over again ... Yogi Berra

              (note to self: Always remember to use two "I's" when spelling SHIITE'S, lest the censor nazi software ensnare one's post. )

              Comment


              • #8
                gotta go with krcNY,i was there the day the war started(on my 38th birthday)i would have rather been in afganistan looking for bin laden.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hm0504:
                  quote:
                  Originally posted by krcNY:
                  I voted NO.

                  The reasons we were given for starting the war, turned out to be bogus. We had another terrorist to take care of first, before we went after Sadamm (with the UN's blessing).

                  Now that the war has been started, it would be wrong to pull out now. We need to support our Troops and pray they finish the job quickly and get home safely.
                  To my recollection, the UN did NOT support the current Iraq war.

                  The U.S. is in far less control of Iraq now than it was in April 2003; either the U.S. has lost in Iraq already or it has a long way to go before it can "finish the job".


                  My apologies....typo.....I meant that we went to war with a big NO from the UN. Bush had is own agenda and did not care what they said. (I fixed the typo on my post, sorry about that)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here's what the Isreali intelligence (Mossad) front site (Debka File) has to say about the civil war currently raging in Iraq.

                    Iraq’s Civil War Spins out of US and Iraqi Government Control

                    July 11, 2006, 7:39 PM (GMT+02:00)

                    Four essential factors underlie the deadly upsurge of Shiite-Sunni sectarian savagery in Baghdad this week:

                    1. No one, including US forces, has stepped in to halt the sectarian cleansing operation engulfing Baghdad in the last six months, the largest of its kind the world has seen in recent years.

                    Shiite fighters, many in the uniforms of the new Iraqi national army or Iraqi security forces, are battling Sunni gunmen, in defiance of their duties to - and the authority of – the Nouri al-Maliki government. This conflict is nothing but outright civil war.

                    First the two hostile camps fought one another for Baghdad suburbs. In early June, they clashed over the control of streets. Now they are dueling for single buildings that overlook strategic sections or installations in the capital. Some streets are consequently ruled half and half, and any Sunni or Shiite venturing into the wrong end of the street takes his life in his hands.

                    2. The most powerful military force in Baghdad today is the radical Shiite cleric Moqatada Sadr’s Mehdi Army militia. With an estimated 15,000-20,000 men under arms, the Mehdi Army outnumbers the government’s military and security forces’ strength in the capital.

                    3. In contrast, the Sunni’s command only a few thousand fighting men. Most belong to the various insurgent groups and Islamist terrorist organizations linked to al Qaeda, which are also responsible for attacks on the American Army and Iraqi officials and institutions.

                    The Sunni groups seek to compensate for their numerical inferiority in three ways:

                    First, they are drawing Sunni fighters from all over Iraq - albeit with small and variable results.

                    Second, they are perpetrating large-scale massacres of Shiites as a deterrent to their militias spreading out to more sectors of the capital.

                    Third, they have enlisted prominent Sunni clerics for decrees ordering all Sunnis to rally for the war on their Shiite compatriots.

                    Last week, they persuaded Sheikh Yusuf Qardawi, the most prominent Sunni Muslim religious authority today, who is obeyed even by al Qaeda, to publish a dispensation permitting all Sunni guerrilla fighters to join the ranks of Iraqi security forces and police for the sake of saving Sunni positions in Baghdad. Incredibly, notorious al Qaeda and Sunni insurgents are ready to join the forces pledged to hunt them down, on the authority of an imam of high repute, because they are convinced that the last Sunni stand in the heart of Baghdad is impending.

                    Fourth, the fortified Green Zone, nerve center of the Iraqi government and high command, and seat of the US embassy and military headquarters, goes on functioning calmly in the eye of the storm of civil warfare and apparently divorced from its violent currents. However, intelligence sources estimate that, after the bloody struggle is decided, the Green Zone will find itself held to siege by the winning side.

                    The descent of Sunni-Shiite duel in Baghdad into sheer brutality was highlighted on Sunday, July 9. Shiite gunmen in Iraqi police uniforms put up fake roadblocks, stopped cars for inspection and pulled the passengers out. When the names on their identity cards proved the terrified passengers to be Sunnis, they were shot dead on the spot. Altogether 41 Shiites, including women and children, were mercilessly murdered in this way.

                    DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources report that Shiite militiamen committed this slaughter in revenge for the killing of Abu Dar’a by the Sunni commandos of the 37th Battalion of the Iraqi government’s special operations force a few days earlier.

                    Abu Dar’a was condemned to death during Saddam Hussein’s rule as a murderous robber chief. He was awaiting sentence in March 2003, when the US-led invasion of Iraq began. Saddam then opened the prison doors and let hundreds of hardened criminals loose on the streets. Abu Dar’a, given a new lease of life, took up residence in Baghdad’s Sadr City, joined Muqtada Sadr’s militia and embarked on a career as terminator of Sunni Muslims in the area north of Baghdad. His savagery earned him the soubriquet of the “Shiite Zarqawi.”

                    The Medhi Army, burning to avenge his death, was responsible for the furious Shiite rampage against Sunnis of the last few days.

                    This fresh crisis sent prime minister Maliki speeding to Irbil, the Kurdistan capital Monday, July 10, for what was officially designated as a visit to the Kurdish parliament. Maliki went there to plead urgently with Iraq’s Kurdish president Jalal Talibani and the Kudistani prime minister Masoud Barzani, for several thousand Kurdish peshmerga commandos, as the only force capable of saving Baghdad. He appears to have given up on an American forces coming to the rescue.

                    DEBKAfile’s Iraq sources reveal that the two Kurdish leaders were in no hurry to respond to the Iraqi prime minister’s appeal. They see no profit in intervening in a Shiite-Sunni civil conflict, especially when the Kurdish community is itself split into Shiite and Sunni Muslims. Furthermore, whereas they are not keen on seeing central government in Baghdad collapse, neither are they willing to fight for its survival. And lastly, Maliki offered the Kurdish no real incentives for sending their best troops to fight in Baghdad.

                    In the absence of a competent army available to stem the bloody spiral of death gripping the heart of the Iraqi capital, Shiite-Sunni violence will probably intensify in the days to come and threaten to spill out into the rest of Iraq.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The American Occupation is almost over.

                      In failure. Lay the blame not on the troops or the Generals - they remain the world's premiere fighting force. They can defeat any opposing force composed of people. Just don't expect them to defeat a noun.

                      Lay the blame on the incompetence, greed, and willful ignorance of GWB, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the neocon cabal who raped Iraq and the US Treasury in their fairy tale quest to establish the New American Century.

                      By ignoring the experience and advice of State Department and Defense Department professionals they threw out the roadmap for occupation and rehabilitation that forsaw and countered the politics, the insurgency and the drift towards civil war that has now become inevitable.

                      The brand new "Unity Government" has already recognized the facts. They give lip service to the notion of a United Iraq because the occupation requires it, but behind the scenes they are desperately making deals to carve Iraq into separate states, including the division of Baghdad itself.
                      • Iraq is engaged in a full-fledged civil war. For those remaining defenders of the U.S. occupation of Iraq, who argue that the United States needs to stay put in order to prevent civil war, it’s too late. It’s here, in all of its brutality and ugliness.

                      • The blame for this carnage must be laid squarely at the feet of George W. Bush. The U.S. invasion of Iraq was ordered against the advice of the CIA, the State Department and most U.S. military officers, and in defiance of the United Nations, America’s allies, and the Arab world. The United States attacked and destroyed a nation that had never attacked the United States, which had no weapons of mass destruction and which had no connection to al-Qaida.
                        http://www.tompaine.com/articles/200...loody_july.php[/list]

                        • Iraqi leaders have all but given up on holding the country together and, just two months after forming a national unity government, talk in private of "black days" of civil war ahead.

                          Signalling a dramatic abandonment of the U.S.-backed project for Iraq, there is even talk among them of pre-empting the worst bloodshed by agreeing to an east-west division of Baghdad into Shi'ite and Sunni Muslim zones, senior officials told Reuters.

                          Tens of thousands have already fled homes on either side.
                        • In private, however, one of his top officials confided earnestly: "To be honest, it's all over. I'm just still doing this job because it's the only way to fight my depression."
                          http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21908240.htm[/list]

                          So what does Bush do now? Pick a side? Let them fight and reconquer the winners? Pour 2 million US troops into Iraq to put the lid back on?

                          Bush has painted us into a corner where there is no right answer, no honorable choice. For that history will hold him accountable. Or The Hague.

                          -Mark

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yep, Mark that about sums it up. On a personal note, I remember the grief and vileness taht came my way when I was among the few who suggested that the dry-drunk sociopath was fixing to cut a fat hog in the *** when he launched us into Iraq.

                        The only bright spot in the whole thing is that Saddam or his people never got up the gumption to blow the dams to the two rivers, then you'd have more than a metaphorical quagmire.

                        Now, according to this week's Newsweek's cover story, Bush, and his pet rats have utterly mishandled the latest outbreak between Israel, Hizbollah, and Lebanon.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As I see the posts, most people seem to believe that the war in Irak was a mistake.

                          In that case, why Americans are not asking for a big independent investigation about the events of 9/11 that bring the support for such a war in the first place?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Eric6420:
                            why Americans are not asking for a big independent investigation about the events of 9/11 that bring the support for such a war in the first place?
                            We did. It was a whitewash. That's the problem with one party government - checks and balances go out the window, gavels are pounded and microphones turned off when difficult questions are asked. Witnesses don't get invited. Hearings are cancelled.

                            The so-called intelligence commission failed to address the easily verifiable PUBLIC evidence that intelligence estimates about Iraq were extremely accurate before the build-up to the Iraq invasion, but went grievously wrong as soon as the administration determined to " fix facts to the policy".

                            -Mark

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                            • #15
                              If you are interested, Meria Heller has a free show this week about 9/11. You can hear her and see her website at www.Meria.net

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