Gender Imbalance -Quotas at Nudist Reports

[Elendil]

Gender Imbalance has been an issue in nudism for awhile now. Sometimes when I go to a nude beach, there will be thirty males on the beach and maybe two females. I've been a member of a nudist club where the club resembled a men's locker room. The club had an open membership policy. See my article here:

Quotas

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Elendil:
Gender Imbalance has been an issue in nudism for awhile now. [/single-male-quotas-at-resorts.html]Quotas[/URL]

Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

I belong to many different type of organizations from my car club to academic clubs. In some there are more guys and in some there are more girls. It just goes with the territory of the club. Nobody would dare suggest that to join an academic club there has to be an acceptable female:male ratio - that is absolutely absurd!

Also, what about non-heterosexuals. How would the requirement adversely effect either lesbian or gays in either couplehood or as singles? It would be discriminatory; just as it would be discriminatory against single heterosexuals.

Honestly, I wonder about the real agenda of those who want either couples only or gender "balancing".

[Naturist Mark]

Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

That may seem the case, but the real problem is that on the whole women are more reluctant to participate in nude recreation than men. If you don't believe me go to your nearest nude beach and take a survey. Many avid female nudists had to be persuaded and cajoled by a friend, husband or boyfriend the first time. Almost universally women say they are even more uncomfortable if they feel 'on display' as one of the very few women in a place full of men.

That is the main reason most nudist clubs and resorts have a gender balancing policy on the books to be used if it gets out of hand. We have noted in other threads that most DO NOT find it necessary to implement those policies, there are very few clubs that exclude single men from visiting as a matter of course.

-Mark

[chuckincville]

Haven't we seen enough quotas?
Why deny this freedom to anyone???
If nudism is a predomininately male activity -- so be it. I would have been an active participant years ago but I couldn't find a club in my area that would accept singles. There are a lot of activities that are male dominated -- hunting, fishing, in fact most sports -- should we put quotas on them? If nudism is of interest to more men than women-- what's wrong with that?
I just recently enjoyed my first experience of social nudism (with my wifes' reluctant permission). My dream is for us to be able to share this freedom together - but until I can convince her to try it my participation will be extremely limited if not curtailed altogether. I'm not ready to throw a 42 year relationship out the window. So in my situation it would be easier to be active in an all male club - if such a thing existed.
And what's wrong with mens locker rooms? I remember when the atmosphere there was relaxed and open and nudity was totally natural. Not today --- we have a membership in a local health club where swimming suits are required in the whirlpool and sauna -- some guys even shower in there underwear!!! Homophobia Rules!??
Are singles a threat? Are couples relationships so tenuous that they have to fear singles? - when we're exposed to singles everyday at work and most all social situations.
Does nudity really equal sex? - as my wife insists and a quota seems to suggest.
Educate me -- what's the problem?

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:

quote:

Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

That may seem the case, but the real problem is that on the whole women are more reluctant to participate in nude recreation than men. If you don't believe me go to your nearest nude beach and take a survey. Many avid female nudists had to be persuaded and cajoled by a friend, husband or boyfriend the first time. Almost universally women say they are even more uncomfortable if they feel 'on display' as one of the very few women in a place full of men.

That is the main reason most nudist clubs and resorts have a gender balancing policy on the books to be used if it gets out of hand. We have noted in other threads that most DO NOT find it necessary to implement those policies, there are very few clubs that exclude single men from visiting as a matter of course.

-Mark

I was discriminated against by a club that advertises that it is "singles friendly." I called up to ask if I could visit, stated that I am an AANR member, was told "we have had enough singles this season, try us again next summer." Do the really think that I would ever call them back or want to spend any money there?

So far I have visited three nude beaches one small one (Smith Point) and two larger ones (Lighthouse Beach & Sandy Hook/Gunnison). Are there more males at these nude beaches? Yup? Is there a greater percentage of women at the textile beaches nearby? Nope

Following the (il)logic of "gender balancing" I would now expect that there will be a call for less guys to go to the textile beaches so that the females there are in a more equal number. The same may be applied to sports stadiums, horse and car tracks, and a host of other activities.

[chuckincville]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:

quote:

Requiring M/F couples is only necessary if the club is promoting either sexual activity or breeding!

Almost universally women say they are even more uncomfortable if they feel 'on display' as one of the very few women in a place full of men.

That is the main reason most nudist clubs and resorts have a gender balancing policy on the books to be used if it gets out of hand. We have noted in other threads that most DO NOT find it necessary to implement those policies, there are very few clubs that exclude single men from visiting as a matter of course.

-Mark

My education continues -- point well taken.

As to enforcement of quotas -- we have two landed facilities in reasonable driving distance -- they both rigidly enforce the singles quota.
However there is a new one that opened this spring - Caribbean Breezes Resort in mid missouri - to my knowledge it does not have a quota.
So what do you think - since the quota is directed at single male participation - maybe my idea of an all male club could be a transitional thing where guys like myself could enjoy social nudism until their wives/partners could be covinced to join them.

[Naturist Mark]

I was discriminated against by a club that advertises that it is "singles friendly." I called up to ask if I could visit, stated that I am an AANR member, was told "we have had enough singles this season, try us again next summer." Do the really think that I would ever call them back or want to spend any money there?

That is unfortunate - clearly that club did not issue a bulletin to turn away Christopher, most likely some of the women guests or members had begun to complain about the overabundance of men. I'm not going to say it is fair, it is not. But until harmless nudity becomes decriminalized in America we have to live with the rules of those who are able to provide a ghetto for 'freedom' in recreation.

Following the (il)logic of "gender balancing" I would now expect that there will be a call for less guys to go to the textile beaches so that the females there are in a more equal number.

Of course there is no one to administer 'gender balancing' on a public beach, nude or textile, but you do see very much the same dynamic at play. Very few single women, mostly women attend in groups or as a couples. The difference is that often the 'group' is a mom with kids, or a group of girlfriends.

I am lucky to have never been turned away from a resort or club activity as a single. Have you tried any other resorts?

-Mark

[1Ace]

It would be nice to see a better balance at clubs/resorts/beaches, but I don't know if anybody has the magic answer for this one...

[DoctorSurferDude]

There is no easy answer..... but I agree that a "No Single Males" policy is unfair.

I do, however, see the value of maintaining some kind of fair ratio. I'm not saying it has to be equal, but I've seen the perils of having a ratio be too unequal....it has the potential to create an environment that is not optimal for visiting females. Females need to feel safe....and I'm not sure exactly at what point it breaks down, but somewhere a threshold is reached when testosterone takes over in the pool area and combined with beer....the ladies cease to feel at ease, the relaxation ends.

Granted, it's a few bad apples.....but bad apples are opportunistic.

So I think ratios are important, they are good for the resort from a business standpoint and from a survival standpoint.

I don't think having a quota on males is discriminatory.....just wake up earlier, nobody is saying males can't go, they are just saying "limited availability". It's like selling running out of spots at dance class

[DoctorSurferDude]

Most of my years as a nudist I've been the "Single Male". I know the trials and tribulations of trying to get into a resort under that stigma. I endured it, without complaining, I figured out what was required, I found solutions to the problems. I never took it personally when I was asked to not visit for the day. I understood the importance of maintaining a balanced and equal nudist environment and was patient until I had my turn.

Here are some inspirational quotes about complaining....

"Instead of complaining that the rosebush is full of thorns, be happy that the thorn bush has roses” - German Proverb

“The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects.” - Lord Jeffrey

“The people who live in a golden age usually go around complaining how yellow everything looks” - Randall Jarrell

"You can overcome anything if you don't bellyache. " ~Bernard M. Baruch

And my favorite....

“If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo

[David77]

In addition to the "gender balance" rule of some resorts, there is the question of some resorts not allowing a person to visit without his wife.

Before my wife died, I visited Show Me Acres Resort near the Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri by myself once, and was told not to return without my wife.

Some resorts are accepting of men without their wives along.

There were some single men there, however.

[usuallylurk]

Originally posted by David77:
In addition to the "gender balance" rule of Some resorts are accepting of men without their wives along.

There were some single men there, however.

OK, as a long-timer, let me explain a few things.

First of all, there are very few parks and clubs that restrict singles. Some have quotas because they try to maintain a REASONABLE gender balance on their grounds at any time.

And - yes, many women feel uncomfortable in an imbalanced situation. A lot of people arguing that point will retort with =

1) "IT'S NOT TRUE". Well, folks, IT IS. If you are at a place with open admission, a woman may say it doesn't bother her. On the other hand, if you were to visit the parks where a balance/quota/restriction system was in place, you very well will get a decidedly different answer.

2) "IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS (marrieds w/non-participating spouses)" If they want to make it their business, they can, and they do. Clubs make rules and establish their atmosphere around them.

Many clubs have been advised that admitting married individuals without their spouses can lead to legal difficulties for the club and its members. This is particularly true of many cooperatively held clubs. Remember, a co-op is owned and operated by its members for the enjoyment of its members.

You also hear some really far out statements like "breeding" and "partners for sex" etc. but those are NOT valid.

Some of those clubs use that exclusivity as a SELLING point, believe it or not. Some also think that their park is a retreat to be enjoyed with the spouse, and with the kids.

But they also think that their park is not to be used as a retreat FROM the spouse or family. It is a place for couples and families to get together. It is not a place of escape, to get away from the wife and kids.

I see this from both sides of the nudist park fence. I'm a member of a landed club (Cedar Waters) that does not admit singles. However, I'm also a member of non-landed clubs that admit all. It's funny, I can't get too many people from Cedar Waters to come with us to the Maine Coast Solar Bares group - and the number one complaint is "yeah but it's got a lot of single males." I can't get couples from Maine Coast to give Cedar Waters a try because "it's too conservative for us."

This proves to me that there are "different strokes for different folks." MCSB members roll their eyes and say "you go THERE?" and while there are some Cedar Waters members who belong to or go to Maine Coast, they give the same reaction.

Over our 30 years in nudism, we have seen things turn around -- 30 years ago, many parks didn't admit singles. Today the reverse is true - few will not.

If you're fortunate enough to live in an area where there are many nude recreation options, you could view a club that admits couples and families only as one that a first time visitor might feel comfortable at.

Hey - how many guys in here have wives who won't participate? If she says "yes, I'll go once (thinking "he'll get this out of his system") wouldn't you seek out a club where there's a balance? You only have ONE chance to make a first impression - so?

I don't think that all of nudism should be restricted - but the handful of clubs that do have those restrictions actually provide a gateway to nudism -- particularly for the couple where the wife/girlfriend is reluctant.

[NudeTopher]

Originally posted by Naturist Mark:
... Have you tried any other resorts?

-Mark

Yes I have. And the ones that I went to never even asked if I was single, partnered, civil unioned, married or in any sort of relationship.

Funny, but when you look at the most successful (largest, most modern, offering the most features, etc) resorts they are the ones that don't have the gender balancing issues. I believe that says something rather profound.

While I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV I seriously question if this sex discrimination is even legal.

[NudeTopher]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoctorSurferDude:
....and I'm not sure exactly at what point it breaks down, but somewhere a threshold is reached when testosterone takes over in the pool area and combined with beer....the ladies cease to feel at ease, the relaxation ends...

------------------------------------------------
Maybe it's time to eliminate the beer and not the singles. I for one have never had a beer at a nudist venue and it hasn't hampered my having a good time.

[Naturist Mark]

Originally posted by NudeTopher (christopher):
Maybe it's time to eliminate the beer and not the singles. I for one have never had a beer at a nudist venue and it hasn't hampered my having a good time.

You may be onto something there. Alcohol seems to be a factor in the majority of problems at nudist parks. Although I imagine you can say the same about any campground or resort.