Announcement

**MikeJB** · 12-19-2003, 08:20 PM

Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in.

**nudeM** · 12-20-2003, 03:31 AM

This subject has been brought up several times. It is the consenses that we like to do things such as everyday activities, only nude. But it's those certain "offendees" who don't like to see the naked body, especially the ones who have kids, who will call the police. All it takes is for an individual to call in a complaint, and the police must respond. It is up to the police to figure out if the nudity was being viewed as lewd or not. It is up to the police to either cite you, or give you a warning. If you are cited, then it is up to the judge. It's sad to say, but yes, you could be required to register as a sex offender.

The best way to figure out your neighbors, is to simply ask if your nudity offends them. That is how I was able to go nude in the backyard. I asked the neighbors, and they stated they would not be offended, so I am nude in the backyard constantly. Going nude in the front yard is different. Not only do you have to contend with the neighbors, but also with the general public i.e., paper boy, mailman, trash collector, utilities personnel (meter readers) and the traffic.

It is these organizations that are trying to get the word out, through educating the public, that pure and simple nudity is okay. Being nude is no way connected to wild and lavish "sex" parties. We just like to live life to the fullest and do things around the house, but only without clothes.

**Guest** · 12-20-2003, 04:56 AM

Mike

As you're new here you won't have seen all the previous discussion on this subject including all the points you have raised. So let me sum up the argument against public nudity from the point of view of a non-nudist. I apologise in advance to all those here who think I'm just repeating tired old arguments for the umpteenth time, but Mike has a right to know:

People have the right to dress as they wish, or not be dressed at all, on their own property or any other private property out of view of others. They have the right to be naked at naturist venues and on naturist beaches or other places set aside for naturist uses. According to a poll published on this site - by one of your fellow naturists - approximately 2% of the population would describe themselves as naturists. So naturists are a very small minority. Yet a significant number of people comprising many times that proportion - I would argue a majority of the population - find public nudity offensive, embarrassing, shocking and/or unacceptable for other reasons.

Public places belong to all of us. In many cases we pay to own them, we pay for their maintenance etc. The public have no choice but to use certain public places and they are ENTITLED to be as comfortable as possible when doing so. Indeed some public places are made purely to be enjoyed. So how do the authorities - as custodians of these public properties - ensure that they are comfortable and user-friendly? The answer is that they impose and enforce rules, and these rules have to be based on current attitudes, values, mores etc. So public sex is out, as is foul language, as is loud music, drunkenness and, of course, exposure of the private parts.

The point about black people etc is spurious. People don't choose their race or their sex or even their sexuality. They are what they are. No-one should be barred from a public place because of what they are. What is and should be prohibited in public is any wilful BEHAVIOUR that is likely to upset or offend a significant proportion of the populace who have to or want to use that place.

Naturists are as welcome as anyone else in my local park - just so long as they keep their genitals etc. out of sight of my family and myself. That means keeping a pair of shorts on - hardly an onorous requirement, is it? Your preference to be totally nude must be subjugated in favour of the preferences of many more people who would find your nudity so offensive that remaining in that place would be unbearable so they would either leave or call the police. If you want to take your shorts off then go to a nudist beach.

You said: "you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them". To me, you being nude in public is every bit as unpleasant and unacceptable as if you threw a bucket of sewage over me. I regard that as real harm in every sense of the word.

You can argue as much as you like that nudity is natural or that my reaction and my family's reaction is illogical but it doesn't change the reality of the situation andit doesn't lessen the suffering and angst.

If I went to a nudist beach then I could expect to see nudity. If I did so and suffered shock as a result then I would have nobody to blame but myself. So I keep away from nudist beaches. But that's not enough for you - or so it seems. You want an established right to expose your private parts to me and my wife and my kids and my elderly parents whenever and wherever it suits you. I hope you will see that I find that totally unacceptable. And I'm not alone in that.

NudeM

"It is these organizations that are trying to get the word out, through educating the public, that pure and simple nudity is okay."

But they know what nudity is. And it's not OK for them. So what are you going to educate them about? Do you think that once they realise that nudism isn't "connected to wild and lavish "sex" parties" they'll say: "Oh! OK then. In that case we don't mind if your stark naked in the local park where the kids are playing, or in the supermarket, or the centre of town"? Somehow I don't think they will.

The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity.

Stu

**Rik** · 12-20-2003, 05:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by stu2630:
[qb] The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity.[/qb]

Never underestimate the ignorance of the public.

Rik

**soofreeemateomanian** · 12-20-2003, 06:04 AM

if everyone was educated stu, There would be textile beaches instead of nudist beaches and if I see you with clothes in a public place in front of my family, I would call the police on you jk lol. The thing stu, is you can't see the big picture can you, you only think of yourself hmm?

**magwolf** · 12-20-2003, 06:07 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeJB:
[qb] Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in. [/qb]

**magwolf** · 12-20-2003, 06:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeJB:
[qb] Ok. This seems to be a big issue with nudists here, as I have seen several posts in the "legal" section here on Public Nudity so I thought id give my 2 cents worth about it since I wasnt here when people posted those things and some people might be new since then and I just think itd be nice to rehash the issue and see what people think.

That said, what do yall think about simple Public Nudity? Im just talking about your average joe type of person doing whatever they do clothed, except nude. Do you think this is right? Ive also read these posts and many people seem to be swayed by the fact that "well the majority dont like it" or "the law is against me" or "theres so many negative things that could happen to me that its not worth the consequences", so many people dont want to try to be nude or think its right simply for the fact that the majority is against you or the law is or its people's right to not see you and you oughta respect that. WELL, lemme give you a lil info, this same sorta thing happened with the black people and happens with lots of races and cultures *old people, special people, mentally ill people, people disfigured in wars, etc* and most of these people felt for a long time that they shouldnt be seen by the majority or fight for their rights because the people didnt accept them, the laws were the way they were and they just blatantly accepted it and thus got visualized as being different, wrong, bad and just lower than most of society. So thats my basis for being nude in public, should we not be nude in or in view of the public just because it offends them or because the majority is against us or because it might be "illegal"?

My biggest complaint about all of this is that everybody here seems to want society to accept nudism and they say there isnt anything bad about it, well if that was so then why dont you feel its your divine right to go n be nude out in front of people. Why shouldnt they be able to see you or why would something that is supposedly good for you and them be against their rights to force them to see? Also, who exactly is forcing them to see the nudity and also react in the ways they do? Those people CHOSE to look directly at a nudist and those people CHOSE to react violently or run to the cops and report something offensive. Wouldnt it be just as easy for these people to just ignore the fact that someone is nude, even if it bugs them? I mean alot of stuff BUGS us or is INDECENT or WRONG to us in life. Does this mean we oughta run to the cops every time someone does something we dont like? It gets really annoying when people get arrested merely for the fact that they OFFENDED someone. What exactly is offensive about nudism and why should they get to complain to the cops merely because they were OFFENDED? Shouldnt the person actually have to be doing something wrong or illegal before the police could take any action? I mean geez if people can get someone arrested because their nudity just offends the person, then couldnt they get someone arrested for being black because it offends them or talking about their religion because it offends them? Most of these laws say that nudity is indecent and if you are doing INDECENT EXPOSURE or are OFFENDING someone with your exposure then you get in trouble, most of the time the laws dont even say WHAT parts are indecent or what sort of ways someone needs to be offending anyone before the police can take action. Im just thinking that, you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them, just like a clothed person would be treated, nudity shouldnt be any different and it shouldnt matter who sees it either, kids, adults, old people, anybody. I know im probably gonna get flammed for this post but I just thought id put my two cents in. [/qb]

I agree completely with all your comments. I just got a ticket for nudity in a state beach north of Laguna beach in the state park there. I have contacted aanr for help and am going to look into fighting the ticket. There was only adults at the beach (about 10 total people) and one couple (the cop said they were europeans believe it or not) complained. All I was doing was laying out nude and walking down to the water and back... I can't believe how screwed up people are about nudity. Every couple/person who walked by me when close would not look at me. they would look out at the water, down to their feet or straight ahead.. I know cause I watched as they passed. How can they be offended if they weren't even looking when they got close? Unbelievable...!!! I believe that it is the rights of the nude person that are being violated not the clothed who are complaining. If they don't like it, don't look - like if they don't like the shirt you have on they don't report it to the cops to be ticketed or arrested.... However, by complaining and the police giving me a ticket, they have violated my rights to be free and do or be what I want to..!

**Guest** · 12-20-2003, 06:18 AM

" I would argue a majority of the population - find public nudity offensive, embarrassing, shocking and/or unacceptable for other reasons.

And you've said that a million times without a shred of proof that it might actually be so. Even in that poll you had a friend do your views weren't supported.

Stop assigning your phobias to most of the population and there will be nothing to discuss.

**aunaturelone** · 12-20-2003, 08:57 AM

quote:
No-one should be barred from a public place because of what they are.

And we are ALL born naked. In fact, I'm naked right now. Therefore I should not be barred from a public place because of what I am. Just as you shouldn't be barred because you impair yourself with textiles.

quote:
The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity.

Not a matter of education. It is a matter of desensitization. Rarely seeing real nudity causes an unnatural and unhealthy hypersensitivity to it when it is encountered.

quote:
The public have no choice but to use certain public places and they are ENTITLED to be as comfortable as possible when doing so.

Not true. There is no entitlement to never be offended or to be at all comfortable. I am deeply offended by having pro-life demonstrators showing images of aborted fetuses in front of my children. However they have an absolute right to do so and I adjust my life accordingly.

**MikeJB** · 12-20-2003, 09:27 AM

Stu, I think you miss my point. If this whole "lets make the public comfortable" crap was true then everything I am offended about in public I could relate to the cops and demand they take action and really the cops have enough on their hands and cant waste time with my complaints, especially if im not actually being harmed. Most nudity laws say in some form or another that you have to be causing some harm or intending to cause harm with your nudity, so yeah if I was nude and walked up to someone and stuck my genitals in their face or if I was some stripper and pulled my clothes off and danced in front of someone suggestively then yeah I would be in the wrong but if im just walking nude down say a street, do you think that the police would have the right to arrest me just because I offended someone? I really think that if people call in a nude man/woman report, there oughta be a rule that states that the person must indicate that there is some harm being done before a police officer would be called to investigate because im sure the police get pissed every time they gotta go crack down on someone whos just trying to get a tan. If I have to accept loud music in a neighborhood and listen to all the anti abortion and pro bush people out there ranting their stupid political bias 24/7 then people should have to accept my nudity, which doesnt intend to cause any harm. As for your sewage statement, if someone dumped sewage on your head then yes youd be in the right to complain because they intended to cause you harm and that is just unsanitary and can give you countless diseases, being nude does nothing to you and in fact most places youd only see one or two nude people and itd be easy enough to just look the other way or ignore it, simple as that Stu. We dont have a perfect society so we cant always be comfortable with what others do but we can do our best to be comfortable ourselves.

**MikeJB** · 12-20-2003, 09:29 AM

Also Stu dont get me hyped up on the whole shorts thing because wearing shorts just shows you are ashamed of your genitals and can be covering skin that is designed to be exposed and makes you get all hot and sweaty down there and thats no fun and why should people have to wear a useless garment just to please a bunch of people who are misinformed and could just as easily look the other way and ignore me?

**MikeJB** · 12-20-2003, 10:03 AM

Mike

"As you're new here you won't have seen all the previous discussion on this subject including all the points you have raised. So let me sum up the argument against public nudity from the point of view of a non-nudist. I apologise in advance to all those here who think I'm just repeating tired old arguments for the umpteenth time, but Mike has a right to know:"

I dont agree with alot of your arguments Stu, for the mere fact that you keep saying nudity is offensive and unacceptable for society BUT you give no reasons as to why it is this way or why people should be or are offended by it. You just give us the ole "thats just the way society is" crap and you really gotta have facts to back that up if people are gonna beleive you and not take you for some looney.

"People have the right to dress as they wish, or not be dressed at all, on their own property or any other private property out of view of others. They have the right to be naked at naturist venues and on naturist beaches or other places set aside for naturist uses. According to a poll published on this site - by one of your fellow naturists - approximately 2% of the population would describe themselves as naturists. So naturists are a very small minority. Yet a significant number of people comprising many times that proportion - I would argue a majority of the population - find public nudity offensive, embarrassing, shocking and/or unacceptable for other reasons."

Oh ok, so basically we should just go and hide from society our lifestyle? Wouldnt that make people kinda more skittish about nudity, because people only run and hide when they have something to hide and nudists dont have anything to hide because people who have something to hide are usually doing something wrong and if nudists go to the resorts and hide their lifestyle then that will fuel societies notion that nudity is bad because they will ask "if nudity is ok, then why not just come out and be open with it?" We cant control what society or individuals find offensive, shocking or unnaceptable, thats their problem and they gotta deal with it in their own way. Nudity is not shocking or offensive in and of itself and people gotta learn to accept it that way and if it bothers them they just need to stay away from us then.

"Public places belong to all of us. In many cases we pay to own them, we pay for their maintenance etc. The public have no choice but to use certain public places and they are ENTITLED to be as comfortable as possible when doing so. Indeed some public places are made purely to be enjoyed. So how do the authorities - as custodians of these public properties - ensure that they are comfortable and user-friendly? The answer is that they impose and enforce rules, and these rules have to be based on current attitudes, values, mores etc. So public sex is out, as is foul language, as is loud music, drunkenness and, of course, exposure of the private parts."

Oh ok. So since im ENTITLED to be comfortable, does this mean I can go telling people to do or not do things that bother me or strip their clothing off because I find it objectionable or call the police everytime someone says a swear word? I mean its just ridiculous. I mean why should kids be exposed to violence, many parents think this is bad for kids and that can be largely proven but hey its a large and growing market and its accepted even though that kids are being harmed, hell they even make money off of it, so we oftentimes accept things that are harmful so why cant people accept nudity in public especially when it isnt harmful? I think your use of the word "private parts" shows your shame and reluctance to call them what they really are, theyre genitals and I think I should be offended by you calling them private parts, MAYBE I SHOULD GO CALL THE COPS FOR YOU OFFENDING ME ON A PUBLIC FORUM?????????? j/k When these people make rules, yes they do look at the society and its culture but they also need to make rules based on people actually doing something that is wrong or harmful, I mean drinking and smoking is harmful but yet we still allow those in public but hey nudity in and of itself doesnt harm anyone but we ban it, I mean go figure, our legal system isnt even perfect so how can we say that the nudity laws are perfect, its pretty obvious thay they are screwed up, especially when a mother gets arrested for pictures of her topless 3 year old girl and parents get custody taken from their kids just because they saw them nude once. Those are two prime examples of what is wrong with our society and its laws, get with the program Stu.

"The point about black people etc is spurious. People don't choose their race or their sex or even their sexuality. They are what they are. No-one should be barred from a public place because of what they are. What is and should be prohibited in public is any wilful BEHAVIOUR that is likely to upset or offend a significant proportion of the populace who have to or want to use that place."

We are born naked and we cant control that, so we shouldnt be criminals. I mean i know we can put clothes on but that just goes to show that we are unhappy the way we are, its like Michael Jackson changing his skin color because he cant accept the fact that he was born black, do you think this is healthy? I would think not. The law says any wilful behavior that INTENDS to cause harm to someone, you actually have to be doing something that is lewd, not just being nude.

"Naturists are as welcome as anyone else in my local park - just so long as they keep their genitals etc. out of sight of my family and myself. That means keeping a pair of shorts on - hardly an onorous requirement, is it? Your preference to be totally nude must be subjugated in favour of the preferences of many more people who would find your nudity so offensive that remaining in that place would be unbearable so they would either leave or call the police. If you want to take your shorts off then go to a nudist beach."

Thats bs. we are not welcome in your park unless we wear your shorts and confine ourself to your rules, otherwise we are ticketed and arrested like petty criminals. I think its absurd that we should have to wear the shorts, not because its stressful for us to put on a simple garment but the fact is that when we do, we are shaming ourselves and promoting the image that something is wrong with that part of us. Why should we have to go hide in a nudist resort just so you dont have to deal with your emotions?

"You said: "you should be able to be nude almost anywhere unless you are causing some sort of crime or harming someone *physically*, not just offending them". To me, you being nude in public is every bit as unpleasant and unacceptable as if you threw a bucket of sewage over me. I regard that as real harm in every sense of the word."

Just because nudity is unpleasant and unacceptable to you, does this mean that we shouldnt be able to do it? Im sure alot of textile people do unpleasant and unacceptable things in public every day, wow, does this mean I can call the cops on them and cause undo legal and personal stress to them too??????????? I dont think so and the same goes for nudity. If you dont like it then maybe you shouldnt look where you know a nudist will be or you should just ignore them, like everyone else does with things tyhey dont like. Dumping sewage on your head and being nude are two different things, the sweage thing is a health and disturbance issue, which means you actually intend to cause harm and are doing something very unhealthy because it spreads germs, being nude simply does neither of these and is irrelevant to that situation.

"You can argue as much as you like that nudity is natural or that my reaction and my family's reaction is illogical but it doesn't change the reality of the situation andit doesn't lessen the suffering and angst."

Just because the publics majority opinion is against nudism, does that mean we should just give in and accept that as being ok? Society can change and the only way its gonna change is if we act and show them that our lifestyle can be safe and good for people in certain ways.

"If I went to a nudist beach then I could expect to see nudity. If I did so and suffered shock as a result then I would have nobody to blame but myself. So I keep away from nudist beaches. But that's not enough for you - or so it seems. You want an established right to expose your private parts to me and my wife and my kids and my elderly parents whenever and wherever it suits you. I hope you will see that I find that totally unacceptable. And I'm not alone in that."

It has nothing to do with exposing them to your family, in fact if that was our sole intention then your words would be logical, but all we want is the right to be nude in public doing the things we do clothed normally and most nudists are respectful enough to be discreet in their actions and not cause undo harm to anyone. If your family doesnt like nude people then im sure they will take the proper precautions so that they wont be overtly exposed to it. The whole "shock value" of nudity in fact is something very unnatural and actually is something with a little bit of willpower, you can actually control.

"But they know what nudity is. And it's not OK for them. So what are you going to educate them about? Do you think that once they realise that nudism isn't "connected to wild and lavish "sex" parties" they'll say: "Oh! OK then. In that case we don't mind if your stark naked in the local park where the kids are playing, or in the supermarket, or the centre of town"? Somehow I don't think they will."

Like people say, its not the public who need to be FORCED to like or even participate in nudity themselves, they dont have to take off a strip of clothing, what they need to do is "accept", not like or agree with but ACCEPT the rights of people to be nude where they please and the rights of people come before the comfort and aaceptance from other people. Many people dont like blacks or hispanics, but we still have to accept them and many people dont like all the atheists and politcal activists out there, but we cant do a damn thing about them, so what makes nudists so damn important? I mean what gives you the right to ban us but not them? Im sure that most people if they know nudity is ok then they wont mind people being nude in parks and stores and such places and honestly if they dont like it, they oughta just ignore it, turn the other way or just simply leave. Im sure if people said nudity was ok then you wouldnt have everyone on your block going nude to the local mall, it just wouldnt happen, but maybe one or two would and that would be easy for most anti nudist people to avoid. I just think they are afraid everyone will want to go nude and those who oppose it will not be able to avoid them.

"The public DOESN'T need educating about nudity."

They dont necessarily need education, besides that about the body and its TRUE function and the fact that it is not bad or offensive but merely need to learn to accept the needs and rights of others. They need to accept simple nudity as normal and just leave people alone.

**aunaturelone** · 12-20-2003, 10:51 AM

I see it like this: There are no moral reasons why one shouldn't be nude anywhere anytime, with the exception that the owner (or renter) of private property has a right to set the clothing rules any way they wish while you are actually on their property. Merely causing offense is not a moral issue - and in almost every area other then nudity - is not a legal issue (in the US). We need to bring nudity the same legal freedom we already give to the Nazi party or to Gay Pride.

There are practical reasons not to be nude. Acitivists in nudism want to reduce/eliminate the practcal reasons as much as possible. Make as many legal (under existing law) nude venues as possible so that it becomes convenient for everyone who wants to participate risk free.

There are environmental reasons. Not much we can do about that. (I suppose we could all encourage the global warming trend... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

There are legal reasons. There are two ways to respond to this. You can try and work through the system to get laws repealed and prevent laws from being passed. You can use acts of civil disobedience as a means to challenge the law in the courts and to generate publicity. (Actually there is a third response which is to do nothing at all and a fourth response which is to ignore the law. Neither is viable for me.)

There are social reasons. Social objections are overcome through individual suasion and societal desensitization to the public nude. Each person must determine for themselves how much social disapproval (and legal risk) they are willing to accept.

With intelligence and sensitivity, most nudists would be surprised at how far they can expand their "gymnosphere"; that portion of their life where they can be nude without running afoul of angry neighbors or the law. To do this inevitably means that non-nudists will discover your lifestyle.

How much risk you are willing to take that some intolerant jackass will discover your nudism and give you grief over it, is up to you. Just as is how you mitigate the risk. I don't believe in outing people but the more of us who voluntarily leave the nudist ghetto behind, the more rapidly persuasion and desensitiztion will take place.

If you want to see just how far you can go with very little risk, let me suggest that next May you take a weekend trip to San Francisco and do the Bay to Breakers walk/run nude. It proves that the textile impaired and the nude can happily coexist in the most public setting imaginable.

**MikeJB** · 12-20-2003, 12:30 PM

"I see it like this: There are no moral reasons why one shouldn't be nude anywhere anytime, with the exception that the owner (or renter) of private property has a right to set the clothing rules any way they wish while you are actually on their property. Merely causing offense is not a moral issue - and in almost every area other then nudity - is not a legal issue (in the US). We need to bring nudity the same legal freedom we already give to the Nazi party or to Gay Pride."

Yeah its kind of ironic how most places people own and they seem to like to set up their own little list of rules and where its a certain way one place, its different someplace else. I think big places like McDonalds or Wal Mart should just have a basic code that everyone follows so no matter which one you go to, as long as you know the rules, youre ok. I mean its just kind of crazy how when you go to certain places you gotta follow their rules, even though the law and your rights say differently. I mean i think someone's house is one thing, but a public place is something else.

"There are practical reasons not to be nude. Acitivists in nudism want to reduce/eliminate the practcal reasons as much as possible. Make as many legal (under existing law) nude venues as possible so that it becomes convenient for everyone who wants to participate risk free."

I dont see any practical reasons not to go nude unless its too cold or the weather doesnt permit it. Who cares what the activists think, if they dont like us being nude, I mean who really gives a rip. I think there needs to be more nudist frendly places so you dont have to put clothes on everywhre you go because it gets kind of annoying.

"There are environmental reasons. Not much we can do about that. (I suppose we could all encourage the global warming trend... )"

Yeah but those reasons depend on the person and their tolerances, the government shouldnt decide where and when people should or can be nude.

"There are legal reasons. There are two ways to respond to this. You can try and work through the system to get laws repealed and prevent laws from being passed. You can use acts of civil disobedience as a means to challenge the law in the courts and to generate publicity. (Actually there is a third response which is to do nothing at all and a fourth response which is to ignore the law. Neither is viable for me.)"

Yeah but what if no one wants to listen to your opinions? I mean do you just shut up and go with the flow or do you take action. I think some people oughta just get out there and fight these animals I mean some of these people just dont care what anyone thinks and just want their opinion to be the way of the land and these people personally are the ones who I have no respect for and shouldnt have to adheir to their stupid rules, I mean if they cant even be respectful or open minded then why should I care if im nude and against their ideas?

"There are social reasons. Social objections are overcome through individual suasion and societal desensitization to the public nude. Each person must determine for themselves how much social disapproval (and legal risk) they are willing to accept."

Yeah but no matter what we do, someone is gonna always object, so I say the best thing to do is just get nude and not worry about it. I mean we gotta do something to get nudity legalized. Just sitting around and debating stuff to people who dont want to take the time to listen or understand just doesnt work, some of these people are so hard headed you wouldnt open their minds no matter how hard your bashed them.

"With intelligence and sensitivity, most nudists would be surprised at how far they can expand their "gymnosphere"; that portion of their life where they can be nude without running afoul of angry neighbors or the law. To do this inevitably means that non-nudists will discover your lifestyle."

I just dont get why people cant just live and let live and just not worry about such trivial things, I mean as long as the nude person isnt disturbing society or hurting anyone I dont see what the big deal is, I mean you just acknowledge that they are nude and move on.

"How much risk you are willing to take that some intolerant jackass will discover your nudism and give you grief over it, is up to you. Just as is how you mitigate the risk. I don't believe in outing people but the more of us who voluntarily leave the nudist ghetto behind, the more rapidly persuasion and desensitiztion will take place."

I dont even get why there are anti nudity laws anyways, most of the time the cops just blow it over or the judge lets the person go saying they cant take any action against them because the person wasnt doing anything lewd. I mean isnt a waste of time for a cop to arrest someone who is nude just to have them get off in the end? Dont these cops have more importanty things to do and worry about than some nude guy walking down the street?

I"f you want to see just how far you can go with very little risk, let me suggest that next May you take a weekend trip to San Francisco and do the Bay to Breakers walk/run nude. It proves that the textile impaired and the nude can happily coexist in the most public setting imaginable."

Yeah it just seems kinda dumb that we can only be nude at officially sponsored city events, I mean if its ok then how come it isnt ok all the time? That just boggles my mind, I mean either nudity is good or its bad, I dont like all this "well its ok BUT" crap I mean we gotta decide this.

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