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  • A Coherent Philosophy

    People here often say that there is more to nudism than just getting nude - it's an ethos - a whole lifestyle. I accept that a predilection for nakedness is a defining characteristic of being a nudist, but is here more to it than that? Maybe some will think there isn't - you like getting naked and that's makes you a nudist.

    OK, so aside from nakedness, what do members here think are the main principles underlying nudist philosophy - if indeed there are any? And how universally, or otherwise, are these agreed and accepted by nudists?

    My personal view is that, if nudism is to be better understood and accepted as a valid lifestyle, and the sexual associations eradicated once-and-for-all, the non-nudist public have to be made aware of the other factors which make someone a nudist. In fact, these factors must be brought to the fore and recognised as just as much a part-and-parcel of nudism as the nakedness.

    Stu

  • #2
    That's a good question, but I think a potential problem is that nudism means different things to different people. I could tell you all the things, outside of nudity, that nudism means to me, but there's no guarantee that any other nudist will agree with me. The one thing we all have in common is the part about nudity. Hence the definition.

    Personally, one of the important things about nudism to me, is the idea of challenging popular opinions on morality and lifestyle choices, and it's a way of striking out against the mainstream society which I have perceived as victimizing me all my life in various ways. Society rejects nudity in a casual context, for reasons having nothing to do with logic. I don't follow rules blindly. I see benefits, not complications, arising from a more relaxed cultural attitude toward nudity, and so I'm gonna stick up for that. People are raised with certain values, handed down from parent to child, but how many actively question those values and traditions, so as to eliminate the ones that are doing more harm than good? Question dogma. Question authority. It's not about chaos, it's about rational intelligence and self-actualization.

    This is all part of my personal philosophy. I don't consider it "nudist philosophy", but it's part of my philosophy that relates to nudism.


    Nudists are people, too. Each one of us has a different philosophy. The only thing we have in common, for sure, is the nudity. If people are going to understand and accept nudism as a lifestyle, they're going to have to understand and accept the idea of being nude.

    There are people who simply can not or do not enjoy the simple pleasure of being naked. And that's okay, but of those people, I would ask that they at least respect that their negative experience of nudity is not shared by everyone.

    Then there are people who might be able to enjoy nudity, but either the stigma of it or simply being unused to it hampers their experience. They might try going nude sometime, but the experience might be ruined by either the fear of getting caught; the nagging feeling in the back of their mind that they're doing something wrong, or abnormal; or purely circumstantial elements, for example, "it's too cold, how could anyone enjoy this?", or "I don't like the feel of this texture on my skin", etc.

    And then there are people for whom the benefits of being nude are so strong, that it overpowers all of the above potential complications. These are the people who actively seek out the nudist lifestyle, and look for more opportunities to be nude, and more understanding and acceptance from the rest of society.

    So how does a nudist get a non-nudist to understand and accept the simple joy of being naked? The only way to truly understand it is to experience it. Among non-nudists, I believe there are those that can be convinced, by encouraging them that it's okay, and by getting them to give it a solid try before giving up. But I suspect there will always be those people who will not be able to truly understand why other people like to be naked. And with those people, the most we can expect is for them to simply accept that we do enjoy it.


    I apologize if I'm steering this discussion in the wrong direction, but if I could control my inspiration, then I'd probably be a famous artist by now. Suffice to say, I'm not. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we can't sugarcoat nudism and try to get people to support it without addressing the 'nudity' aspect. As far as the 'sexual connotation' angle goes, what better education is there than experience? The burned hand teaches best...

    Nudity is the pleasure in and of itself. By substituting other attributes, like being 'natural' or 'healthy', for the stigmatized 'sexual' attribute that people assume, we may have a much better argument, but we're still dancing around the issue that nudity is an end in and of itself, and not just a means.

    Actually, I'd be curious to know if other nudists share that opinion. Is nudity an end in and of itself, or just a means to some other end for you?

    (Sorry Stu - not trying to hijack, but I think it's a related issue - feel free to prove me wrong, though)

    Comment


    • #3
      zharth

      Thanks for your response. It's disappointing that you are the only one who has bothered to offer any thoughts on this rather intellectual topic.

      Just thinking out loud here, but do you not think that, if the only thing that nudists have in common is nudity, then that makes the nudist movement, if there is such a thing, nothing more than a bunch of people who share a hobby? Doesn't that make it philosophically vacuous? And if it does, then surely that makes a mockery of the claim that nudists have the right to be treated as a minority in exactly the same way as a racial or religious minority?

      Let's think about vegetarians. Some are vegetarians because they believe it is wrong to kill animals for food. Others are vegetarians because they think meat is unhealthy. But I reckon most think both arguments work together to make the case for vegetarianism unarguable. Nudists, however, seem to struggle to make a coherent ideological case for nudism beyond the woolly and unsubstantiated notion that it is unhealthy to be a prude.

      Some nudists here do play with some philosophical ideas like 'body acceptance' and 'rejection of shame', but these seem rather confused ideals based upon premises which the outside world may not accept. For example, I accept my body - I just think there are bits of it I prefer not to display to strangers because they are intimate. A person may have a body which is an amazing example of human physical perfection, but that doesn't mean they want others to see their genitals or that, by wanting to keep their sex organs out of view, that they are ashamed of them or have 'issues'.

      During my time coming here, I have gained a perception that many, if not most, nudists have no interest in confronting the real philosophical issues and this is borne out by the lack of responses to this thread. But if they don't, nudism will we dismissed by many in the majority textile world as a fringe pastime practised by a few oddballs. And, what is even more destructive, they will wonder just how much this pastime is, in truth, motivated by carnality.

      Stu

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
        zharth

        Thanks for your response. It's disappointing that you are the only one who has bothered to offer any thoughts on this rather intellectual topic.
        Because Stu, you are just setting this thread up so you can continue your whirring; your anti-ness.


        "I have gained a perception that many, if not most, nudists have no interest in confronting the real philosophical issues and this is borne out by the lack of responses to this thread. "

        Example.

        Further, no one can "debate" with you, Stu. You repeat yourself endlessly, same thing over and over and over and then you have the gall to say, "most nudists have no interest in confronting the real philosophical issues"

        How arrogant of you.

        But I know, the whirring has begun again!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
          zharth

          Thanks for your response. It's disappointing that you are the only one who has bothered to offer any thoughts on this rather intellectual topic.

          Just thinking out loud here, but do you not think that, if the only thing that nudists have in common is nudity, then that makes the nudist movement, if there is such a thing, nothing more than a bunch of people who share a hobby? Doesn't that make it philosophically vacuous? And if it does, then surely that makes a mockery of the claim that nudists have the right to be treated as a minority in exactly the same way as a racial or religious minority?

          Let's think about vegetarians. Some are vegetarians because they believe it is wrong to kill animals for food. Others are vegetarians because they think meat is unhealthy. But I reckon most think both arguments work together to make the case for vegetarianism unarguable. Nudists, however, seem to struggle to make a coherent ideological case for nudism beyond the woolly and unsubstantiated notion that it is unhealthy to be a prude.

          Some nudists here do play with some philosophical ideas like 'body acceptance' and 'rejection of shame', but these seem rather confused ideals based upon premises which the outside world may not accept. For example, I accept my body - I just think there are bits of it I prefer not to display to strangers because they are intimate. A person may have a body which is an amazing example of human physical perfection, but that doesn't mean they want others to see their genitals or that, by wanting to keep their sex organs out of view, that they are ashamed of them or have 'issues'.

          During my time coming here, I have gained a perception that many, if not most, nudists have no interest in confronting the real philosophical issues and this is borne out by the lack of responses to this thread. But if they don't, nudism will we dismissed by many in the majority textile world as a fringe pastime practised by a few oddballs. And, what is even more destructive, they will wonder just how much this pastime is, in truth, motivated by carnality.

          Stu
          Stu,

          You are obviously baiting people with your loaded response. Perhaps no one replies because they either don't see the point of it or don't want to engage in endless debate that, in the end, accomplishes nothing. You also have the option of continuing to post to this thread by yourself and repeating your points. However, I think that you will find that you have already made your points ad naseum. Good luck.

          Comment


          • #6
            MoonShadow

            and then you have the gall to say, "most nudists have no interest in confronting the real philosophical issues"

            How arrogant of you.
            You read what I say to confirm your own twisted perceptions of what I am here for and what I think. As usual, you are wrong. The above statement is not arrogance - nor is it me being 'anti' - it's the truth.

            Most nudists don't have any strong desire to confront the philosophical issues. You only have to look at the majority of threads here to see that. They enjoy their nudism and that's all that matters to them and so they discuss the practicalities of it rather than any deeper meanings. While I don't blame them for that one bit, it doesn't help nudism to move forward or gain respect in the wider world. People will perceive nudism as a weird "hobby" and nudists as "other" rather than mainstream. They will also not afford nudism the respect that religious or political convictions command.

            Now, you can use my comments constructively and analyse them and see if there is any value in them, or else you can ignore them and carry on talking about which beach is cleanest and how men should deal with erections. Your choice.

            Stu

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Stu,
              You are at it again. You wonder at the lack or response? Blah, Blah, Blah. Boring.
              Cheers
              Mick

              Comment


              • #8
                Most nudists don't have any strong desire to confront the philosophical issues. You only have to look at the majority of threads here to see that. They enjoy their nudism and that's all that matters to them and so they discuss the practicalities of it rather than any deeper meanings.
                What deeper meanings? I am COMFORTABLE cleaning my home in the nude, alone, where no one can, God forbid, be offended by the sight. I didn't realize there were any "philosophical issues" or "deeper meanings." Sometimes, I even forget that I am naked.

                My Bad!

                One of us is making a mountain out of a mole hill and has an unhealthy obsession with this subject -- and it ain't me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Home Nudist View Post
                  What deeper meanings? I am COMFORTABLE cleaning my home in the nude, alone, where no one can, God forbid, be offended by the sight. I didn't realize there were any "philosophical issues" or "deeper meanings." Sometimes, I even forget that I am naked.

                  My Bad!

                  One of us is making a mountain out of a mole hill and has an unhealthy obsession with this subject -- and it ain't me.
                  Which great Philosopher once said "the unexamined life is not worth living". Socrates - as he sat and pondered the great mysteries of life? The answers to these questions actually lie in the advanced theoretical mathematical anaysis of Rene Descartes. lol

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sanslines

                    You are obviously baiting people with your loaded response. Perhaps no one replies because they either don't see the point of it or don't want to engage in endless debate that, in the end, accomplishes nothing.
                    I'm "baiting" people? A "loaded response"? Really?

                    Well, let me confess something. I am guilty of plagiarism!!

                    Earlier on today, I was clearing out my hard drive and I came across a post I had copied and pasted from a nudist site a few years ago onto a blank Word document. It could even have been this one, but I couldn't tell. I also kept my response to it. The post, presumably written by a nudist, read as follows:

                    People often say that there is more to nudism than just getting nude, it's an ethos, a whole lifestyle. I accept that a predilection for nakedness is a defining characteristic of being a nudist, but is there more to it than that? Maybe some will think there isn't. You like getting naked and that's makes you a nudist.
                    I changed the punctuation a bit but, aside from that, it's pretty much the same as I wrote as the first item in this thread. This proves what I have been saying for some time. If I write something - it's twisted, misconstrued and so on and people here get really vicious with me - why? Is it because of something I said? Nope. It's because it's me who said it.

                    Now all you who have attacked me have proved my point and made yourselves look foolish.

                    Of course there is an exception - zharth. He made the original response and it was thoughtful, intelligent and relevant.

                    Stu

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Since we are all different and we have also different reasons to be here or different causes that brought us into nudism as in integrated part of our lives it seems impossible to find binding principles of our lifestyle.

                      For me the discovery of being naked without sexual meaning was a stay in hospital; after an operation on the spine I could not move for a week. I was naked to avoid bedsores an d every few hours I was turned over by either young women or nuns

                      It made me think.

                      Our interest in nudism is simply a variation of what humans get up to, turning wood, pottery, music, collecting stamps, whatever.

                      What I have found out about nudism over 40 years is that nudists are often "hard wired" for it. They came to it in a variety of ways that show up from time to time on this forum

                      Another matter to consider is time and environment; in Holland this discussion would be pointless as nudism is a non issue.
                      In new Zealand, here in Christchurch, it is possible that there will be a nudist beach.
                      In Auckland there are a few of those for many years

                      It is possible to discuss these rethorical questions that Stu puts up ad infinitum; it must be his hobby to stir this particular pot

                      As for me, I take my pants off and enjoy the freedom and the difference from the conventinal approach.We can be different and nudism is one way to be so.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Stu,

                        Now, you can use my comments constructively and analyse them and see if there is any value in them, or else you can ignore them and carry on talking about which beach is cleanest and how men should deal with erections. Your choice.
                        No, that statement is not in the least arrogant. (Who lied?)

                        Use your comments constructively ??? People here are living their lives and minding their own business.

                        Who are you to tell people what to think, how to feel, and how to live? Conversation, fine. Debate, fine. But, you cross the line. You utterly amaze me, because you don't see or hear yourself. (Or, you pretend not to.) You use the same rhetoric, over and over, ad nauseam. YOU twist things and bait people. Then, you claim you are being attacked and are the victim. Maybe, it's because you always fire the first shot, in a passive-aggressive manner.

                        It's getting so old, you should set it to music.

                        You really need to get a new hobby..... Or, maybe professional help.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Stu,

                          Zarth replied to your post and that is fine. Others did not and you seem to be puzzled as to why they did not. I tried to offer an explanation but you still seem peeved that no one replied. With this topic, as with any topic, people may or may not reply. It all depends if they are interested enough to muster a reply.

                          Philosophy is a deep subject and many who come to this forum come to relax and not for deep conversations. Maybe some are familiar with past history and know exactly where this discussion / debate is heading. Who knows as everyone is different. If you also think about it, you may come to realize that you were indeed fishing. You certainly did put a worm on your hook and cast it out into the sea in hopes of a few nibbles. When those nibbles did not materialize (sans one) you redressed your hook and cast it out again into the sea. You have received some nibbles but they are from the wrong kind of fish and so you continue to appear unhappy. Perhaps if you try another bait, you might get a better kind of fish bitting at your hook, line, and sinker.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
                            MoonShadow
                            You read what I say to confirm your own twisted perceptions of what I am here for and what I think. As usual, you are wrong. The above statement is not arrogance - nor is it me being 'anti' - it's the truth.

                            Most nudists don't have any strong desire to confront the philosophical issues. You only have to look at the majority of threads here to see that. They enjoy their nudism and that's all that matters to them and so they discuss the practicalities of it rather than any deeper meanings. While I don't blame them for that one bit, it doesn't help nudism to move forward or gain respect in the wider world. People will perceive nudism as a weird "hobby" and nudists as "other" rather than mainstream. They will also not afford nudism the respect that religious or political convictions command.

                            Now, you can use my comments constructively and analyse them and see if there is any value in them, or else you can ignore them and carry on talking about which beach is cleanest and how men should deal with erections. Your choice.

                            Stu

                            Now, you are being condescending. There is nothing to "analyse" about this thread.

                            For a non-nudist and with your history on this forum, this thread is a joke. You have already started the anti-ness whirring with "People will perceive nudism as a weird "hobby" and nudists as "other" rather than mainstream. They will also not afford nudism the respect that religious or political convictions command".

                            Further, why don't you use the comments already made to you on this thread "constructively" and heed what they say.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sanslines View Post
                              Stu,

                              Zarth replied to your post and that is fine. Others did not and you seem to be puzzled as to why they did not. I tried to offer an explanation but you still seem peeved that no one replied. With this topic, as with any topic, people may or may not reply. It all depends if they are interested enough to muster a reply.

                              Philosophy is a deep subject and many who come to this forum come to relax and not for deep conversations. Maybe some are familiar with past history and know exactly where this discussion / debate is heading. Who knows as everyone is different. If you also think about it, you may come to realize that you were indeed fishing. You certainly did put a worm on your hook and cast it out into the sea in hopes of a few nibbles. When those nibbles did not materialize (sans one) you redressed your hook and cast it out again into the sea. You have received some nibbles but they are from the wrong kind of fish and so you continue to appear unhappy. Perhaps if you try another bait, you might get a better kind of fish bitting at your hook, line, and sinker.

                              Well said, Sanslines

                              Comment

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