Clothesfreedom and Body Shame

[TigerTeam]

Much has been said about shame and its effect on how we view clothing. One thing I have not seen discussed with much depth is how body shame has evolved.

Generally the common theme is that a person was forced to be always covered, even in the most unlikely situations. It seems to affect men mostly (not always). And it ususally is cured by that person discovering nudism.

What I find interesting is, that in decades past, when people were living in an age of greater repression about acceptable clothing styles, there seemed to be more openness about body exposure. YMCA's were largely nude. Rural areas saw less formality with bathing attire in lakes and streams. Group showers were the standard in nearly all kinds of public bathing facilities.

Yet in those times, nudity on television was nearly non-existant, adult bookstores were less prevalent, soft porn was less available, and the internet was not around. In short, the virtual forms of nudity were minimal, and the real forms of nudity were greater back then.

So how is it that now with all sorts of nudity available for viewing that we as a culture have retreated into our private stalls for moments of nakedness?

It seems to me that body shame does NOT come about through the enforcement of clothing styles but instead from being exposed to the various ways that nudity manifests itself in our society. These manifestations in turn give us pause to think twice about what our own innocent nakedness might mean to our social circle. Because we do not want to inadvertently send the wrong message to our world by our innocent acts of clotheslessness.

Could it be that body shame is rooted not in clothes wearing but in being negatively influenced by the kinds of nudity we now observe?

[Rick_42]

You might be onto something. The way the media has bombarded us with the "nudity=sex" and "your body isn't good enough, buy our products" messages over the past few decades probably has done much to influence society's views on nudism and body acceptance.

Until around the 1930s breastfeeding was common and accepted (even in church) until a large corporation wanted to sell more baby formula. They used the advertising media of the day and enlisted the aid of moralists to make the public believe breasts were somehow dirty and shameful.

The media is quite powerful and I believe they abuse that power to sell us a bill of goods.

[RichNH]

Outstanding topic! Perhaps the sense of "walls" (which allowed people to do their thing) has been eroded by radio, TV and especially internet. These mass media venues have served to bring people closer in the sense that a "norm" has developed as to what is proper (for example the TV family shows since the 50's). Once people (as a mass) start viewing Lucy and Ricky and seeing what they do at home and how they act at home there might tend to emulate that behavior.

Too, the increase of standards in professional circles (like medical) pushes common ideas, like formula feeding instead of breast feeding.

But from what I understand, nudism is on the rise (if not in established locations). So perhaps the very venues that created the situation of less than Holistic living is now serving as a venue for a return to Holistic living. It'll take decades to know for sure.

Rich

[nudenwv]

great post! i think you hit the nail on the head! when growing up we were always told not to show your nude body to anyone and if in a locker room, turn so the other guys could not see your "privates". i never did do what i was told!

[Ken Palmer]

I think to a certain extent, we were all raised this way. We were told to "cover up," or don't run around the house naked!" That was just old-fashioned parenting at its best. But I was like you nudenwv. I seldom did what I was told either in that respect! Especially around the age of 7,8, and 9 years old! But I did get a few spankings from it though! But good point though. It's hard to distinguish between the nudity and sex issues at times. Were we taught to be ashamed of our bodies because of what society did not accept,or was it because of the "sex" subject?

Ken Palmer

Originally posted by nudenwv:
great post! i think you hit the nail on the head! when growing up we were always told not to show your nude body to anyone and if in a locker room, turn so the other guys could not see your "privates". i never did do what i was told!

[RalphVa]

When growing up, I don't recall being TAUGHT anything. The feeling that nudity was bad sorta seeped in from comments people made about it. My Dad, I think, suspected that I slept nude and pulled my covers completely off me one morning to possibly "shame" me.

It took me a while as an adult to overcome that negativity about nudity that "seeped" into me as a youth. Even took a while for me to go back to sleeping naked.

[RichNH]

I remember back in the early to mid 60's our cousins from NYC were visiting us on LI and the TV was on. They had some ballet dancer from the Soviet Union on TV performing in some joint in NYC. All us kids were laughing and saying he was naked. The women were trying to hush us up and the men seemed to be enjoying our reaction. I think his name was Nuraev or something like that. LOL

I also remember a Life magazine article on pre-historic humans and they showed some painting of cavemen with the women being barebreasted. That was great amuzement for us kids while mom kept trying to tell us that it was just a human body.

But at the same time, we never saw any real nudity around the house. For the generation that grew up during the depression, following the rules of society seemed to be very important. And I think we tended to absorb that concept. Everyone was trying to be like the 1950's TV family, at least where I grew up.

Then the mid and late 60's arrived and kind of shattered those perfect family images that so many had cultivated.

Rich

[garbo]

Most of us have grown up with either prior guilt or shame about our body image or of nudity in general. The best example of a place where body shame is non existant is at a nudist resort. Prior memories and images of shame from one's life are virtually non-existent there. Whether you chose to stay to yourself, spend the time with a partner or socialize with the other guests, the feelings are all the same.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by garbo:
Most of us have grown up with either prior guilt or shame about our body image or of nudity in general. The best example of a place where body shame is non existant is at a nudist resort. Prior memories and images of shame from one's life are virtually non-existent there. Whether you chose to stay to yourself, spend the time with a partner or socialize with the other guests, the feelings are all the same.

I agree with you to a point. While we may feel free within our nudist retreats and hideaways, the issue of having to be hidden still is important for many nudists. The very act of hiding our "shame" at a secret nudist resort, behind locked gates, away from our family and friends, shows that on some level we still carry the shame of our bodies.

I spend quite a bit of time at nudist resorts in the 1990s, and became comfortable being naked around other nudists, but after a while I began to wonder if a nudist resort wasn't just a bigger closet. I mean, I could take off my clothes at home in my closet without shame, but not out on my front lawn or at a public beach. Well, in some sense a nudist resort is like the closet, a cloesd off and protected space where you can take your clothes off. True, its bigger than my bedroom, but its still having to be hidden, to hide the "shame" of my body away from the public.

As on the other topic about "getting caught" someone pointed out that being seen naked is not the same as caught. If we are not ashamed of our bodies then it is okay to be seen naked. Can we participate in naked bike rides through cities? Can we go to a "free" public beach? Can we participate in naturist hikes on trails and venues where other non-nudist people will see our nakedness? Or, do we cover our "shame" and hid down a narrow tree lined road behind walls and locked gates?

Blessings

Bob

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
do we cover our "shame" and hid down a narrow tree lined road behind walls and locked gates?

I do not consider this shame in any sense of the word. I call it avoiding arrest.

[RichNH]

Bob, I agree with a big part of what you're saying. I remember my first time on a nude beach. It took a bit to muster up the courage even though everyone around was naked. But ten minutes later the "shame" was totally gone and forgotten and I was a changed man. But even now, it's the fear of being held up to public ridicule by people I know that still concerns me somewhat, although more and more it concerns me less and less.

By the same token MJ_KC brings up a very good point, altercations with the law and/or people who want to engage in their own form of justice does concern me.

Rich

[John P]

I pretty much agree with Bob; I'm not attracted much to naturist clubs or resorts. It's just replacing clothes made of cloth with "clothes" in the form of fences and gates. If the issue is freedom, let's at least find a spot out in the woods and get naked there--no confinement and no rules (and nobody being told to stay away because there are more men than women).

Well, I have gone to resorts and enjoyed it, but it was when friends invited me. I can't see paying serious money to become a member and then feeling that I have to go there every weekend to make it worthwhile!

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by RichNH:
Bob, I agree with a big part of what you're saying. I remember my first time on a nude beach. It took a bit to muster up the courage even though everyone around was naked. But ten minutes later the "shame" was totally gone and forgotten and I was a changed man. But even now, it's the fear of being held up to public ridicule by people I know that still concerns me somewhat, although more and more it concerns me less and less.

By the same token MJ_KC brings up a very good point, altercations with the law and/or people who want to engage in their own form of justice does concern me.Rich

I agree, Rich, that we need to be concerned with the law and the possibility of meeting people who will do their own form of "justice." However, its been my experince over several decades that simple nudity is usually tolerated by most people.

I looked up the law in NH, which is a typical law that requries some intent to cause distress of other people, "Fornicates, exposes his or her genitals or performs any other act of gross lewdness under circumstances which he or she should know will likely cause affront or alarm."

Over several decades I've been naked, and encountered clothed people, in a variety of places. One group of teenage boys laughed when they encountered my wife and I naked on a trail. Three woman I met on another trail moved aside to give clearance when passing. One woman said, "I wish I could do that" as my sons and I jogged by naked. Passing motorists generally just drive by. We do have to be concerned about the law, none of us wants to be arrested. The key part of laws in most areas is that just being naked is not illegal. The law requires an intent to cause disturbance or affront to others.

I also agree with you about being ridiculed. My wife didn't like getting laughed at. Some people think we are strange going naked, think we should be ashamed that our body is seen in public. But I'm getting older and not as willing to be ashamed of myself as my neighbor might want me to. If he or she sees me naked on a path, near a road, at a beach, etc., then it is their problem, not mine. I'm not out on the road doing lewd acts, but I'm not hiding behind fences or gates either.

Blessings

Bob

[MJ_KC]

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
If he or she sees me naked on a path, near a road, at a beach, etc., then it is their problem, not mine. I'm not out on the road doing lewd acts, but I'm not hiding behind fences or gates either.

I would like to see it get to the point where if it would be OK to do something while clothed, it would also be OK when nude. The amount of clothing would not matter.

I do not expect this to ever happen though because of the number of people in this world who would actually go to war to prevent this in many parts of the world. There are some very extreme conservative religious folks who would never tolerate this.

[Bobx23456]

Originally posted by MJ_KC:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobx23456:
If he or she sees me naked on a path, near a road, at a beach, etc., then it is their problem, not mine. I'm not out on the road doing lewd acts, but I'm not hiding behind fences or gates either.

I would like to see it get to the point where if it would be OK to do something while clothed, it would also be OK when nude. The amount of clothing would not matter.

I do not expect this to ever happen though because of the number of people in this world who would actually go to war to prevent this in many parts of the world. There are some very extreme conservative religious folks who would never tolerate this.

Indeed true. Some religious zealots make the women cover everything but their eyes and would cover those too if they could. They make the men cover all except faces and hands. They would force their religion onto everyone if they could. Personally, I think that is psychologically disturbed. If we accept instead of fighting back we are supporting their perverted shame of our bodies.

Blessings

Bob