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  • Swedes stand up for topless rights

    Swedes stand up for topless rights
    By ERIN PARKE - Stuff.Co.Nz | Tuesday, 20 November 2007

    Swedish women are fighting a new sexual revolution - the right to go
    topless at pools and beaches.


    Scandinavian feminists were outraged when two women were asked to
    cover up their breasts by a lifeguard at a public pool near
    Stockholm, the Daily Mail's website reported.

    On of the women, 22-year-old Ragnhild Karlsson, said "If women are
    forced to wear a top, shouldn't men also have to?"

    The result is a campaign group called Bara Bradiost, which
    translates as Just Breasts.

    A spokeswoman for the group said women should feel comfortable
    taking their tops off wherever they went.

    "We want our breasts to be as normal and desexualised as men's, so
    that we too can pull off our shirts at football matches."

    The Sweden's equal opportunities ombudsman will decide whether or
    not to take up the case later this month, the website said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4281877a4560.html

  • #2
    Good for these women! The real question is why can't women swim topfree in a public swimming pool (just as men)? If the real problem is some men making jeering or abusive remarks, then these men who are inconsiderate need to be dealt with and pay the price. As it stands now, women are paying the price for men who can't control themselves and this is not right! Some men just need to grow up and it will take some strong minded women to kick them in their butts until they do so. Women should not tolerate any kind of unfair treatment or abuse from dominating men.

    Comment


    • #3
      I would guess that the real problem is not the leering lechers, but those who would protect us from seeing the human body unclothed - especially those who desire to "protect" children. So long as people continue to grow up with such protection, the body will be sexualized and nudity will continue, for many, to equal sexuality.

      Comment


      • #4
        And as a result we'll have "men have to wear tops too"...

        Comment


        • #5
          So long as people continue to grow up with such protection, the body will be sexualized and nudity will continue, for many, to equal sexuality.
          And why is that a bad thing?

          Stu

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
            And why is that a bad thing?

            Stu
            People need to grow up and stop objecting to silly things in life. They need to wake up and become concerned about the really important issues in life. Issues such as serious crime, lack of health care, out of control price increases. Nudity should be a non issue but I do believe that people are only making it an issue because they do not want to face the really serious issues in society. Nudity is not about sexuality but if people want to make everything in life related to sexuality (such as using advertising to show a young woman in some skimpy bikini selling car shock absorbers) then so be it. Heck, maybe the setting sun is also related to sexuality- why not.

            Comment


            • #7
              People need to grow up and stop objecting to silly things in life.
              It's silly to you, but for some people it's more important. Perhaps not a matter of life and death, but we are allowed to object to minor sources of concern as well as major ones.

              Nudity should be a non issue
              That's a perfectly valid opinion, just as some people think swearing or teenagers smoking weed or the open display of porn are non-issues, but others feel differently about it. As I have validated your opinion on nudity, why can't you validate mine - even though we may disagree about the substance of the issue?

              Nudity is not about sexuality
              In a non-nudist world, nudity outside of certain contexts is very often about sexuality - it involves the exposure of parts of the body which have a role in sexual activity.

              but if people want to make everything in life related to sexuality (such as using advertising to show a young woman in some skimpy bikini selling car shock absorbers) then so be it.
              I think it's pretty clear that they do. A young woman in a skimpy bikini selling car shock absorbers is certainly sexual but that same woman in that same bikini sunbathing on a beach may not be. It's about context. But we're not talking bikinis, we're talking nudity, or toplessness. For many people, disrobing and exposing these parts of the body to members of the opposite sex is a prelude to sexual activity so, in good Pavlovian fashion, sexual arousal occurs. It's a bit like the sight of delicious food or the smell of cooking arouses a desire to eat. There's nothing wrong with that and people see it as an "anticipation" of the pleasures to come. It's part of the joy of sexuality for many of us.

              Heck, maybe the setting sun is also related to sexuality- why not.
              The setting sun has no role in human sexual activity. The parts of the body normally concealed by bikinis or underpants do have a role.

              Stu

              Comment


              • #8
                more info

                Some more background from sweden (in english) http://www.thelocal.se/8557/20070920/

                Swedish Aftonbladet newspaper also reported that in fact at the pool in case (Fyrishov) in summer a part of the outdoor tanning lawn is reserved for women-only where they can sunbathe topless if they like to do so, in peace and away from prying men.

                For those not familiar with swedish bathing culture, it also needs to be mentioned that in sweden it always has been and still is common with separate nude bathing areas for men and women, i.e., nothing principally against toplessness (or nude) as long as not mixed. The same I see here in Norway were several pools have aside from communal hours (where proper swimwear is mandatory) some hours reserved for women or men only, and then any clothing standard is acceptable, toppless or nude.

                In the local swedish newspaper poll on the issue even those 'liberal' swedes remained divided with 52% for topless and 43% against... see here: http://www.gt.se/1.846486/tycker-du-...clePopup=false

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
                  It's silly to you, but for some people it's more important. Perhaps not a matter of life and death, but we are allowed to object to minor sources of concern as well as major ones.
                  Objecting or complaining about anything or everything is one thing. Abusing or legally persecuting nudists is another. It is much better to focus upon issues that are seriously harming people such as crime then to waste precious time and resources on a minor annoyance to some. Nudism never physically hurt or killed anyone. Shootings, stabbings, assaults, rapes, etc do. However, confronting such individuals who perpetrate such crimes is far riskier then confronting nudists.


                  That's a perfectly valid opinion, just as some people think swearing or teenagers smoking weed or the open display of porn are non-issues, but others feel differently about it. As I have validated your opinion on nudity, why can't you validate mine - even though we may disagree about the substance of the issue?
                  So many people have gone round and round with this same issue that it seems to have become and endless merry go round ride. You don't like nudism - fine - you don't have to see it or deal with it. It is far better to invest one's precious time on REAL issues rather then minor annoyances - that is unless a person has endless amounts of leisure time and can afford to spend their time complaining about minor annoyances.


                  In a non-nudist world, nudity outside of certain contexts is very often about sexuality - it involves the exposure of parts of the body which have a role in sexual activity.
                  The non nudists are misinformed and just plain wrong. What is worse is that they refuse to open their minds and take an objective look at their own beliefs to question them.


                  I think it's pretty clear that they do. A young woman in a skimpy bikini selling car shock absorbers is certainly sexual but that same woman in that same bikini sunbathing on a beach may not be. It's about context. But we're not talking bikinis, we're talking nudity, or toplessness. For many people, disrobing and exposing these parts of the body to members of the opposite sex is a prelude to sexual activity so, in good Pavlovian fashion, sexual arousal occurs. It's a bit like the sight of delicious food or the smell of cooking arouses a desire to eat. There's nothing wrong with that and people see it as an "anticipation" of the pleasures to come. It's part of the joy of sexuality for many of us.
                  There is plenty wrong with it. Everything has a proper place and time. For those who wish to see everything in terms of sex, they have a serious problem. Nudism is not about sex - plain and simple. There are those who can not see beyond their own limited thinking and will never attempt to understand a different way.


                  The setting sun has no role in human sexual activity. The parts of the body normally concealed by bikinis or underpants do have a role.
                  False statement. Many people believe that the alignment of the stars, moon, and sun have an effect on human emotions. The setting sun can have an effect to encourage sexual activity and therefore people can and will associate the setting sun with sex.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sanslines

                    This thread was started because a very small number of women in Sweden have decided that they think females using public swimming pools should be allowed to be topless when doing so. All swimming pools have rules to protect safety and prevent annoyances, and the women referred to are taking issue with what those rules say. I can’t fathom why you think I am suggesting diverting resources away from international terrorism or organised crime when we are talking about dress codes in a swimming pool. If the women break the rules, they would be presumably asked to refrain from doing so or else leave. I don’t imagine the pool attendants would be calling in the FBI or SWAT teams to deal with them. Presumably, the fact that it is against the rules would mean that women wouldn't do it in the first place.


                    You don't like nudism - fine - you don't have to see it or deal with it.
                    I have no problem with nudism - it's nudity I don't like. I consider topless women to be partly naked. I don't see it and I don't have to deal with it precisely because it's not allowed in the places I go to. And that includes public swimming pools.


                    The non nudists are misinformed and just plain wrong.
                    Says you. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is no more valid than the opinions of non-nudists.


                    What is worse is that they refuse to open their minds and take an objective look at their own beliefs to question them.
                    That's their choice. They are under no obligation to see the world from your perspective.


                    Everything has a proper place and time. For those who wish to see everything in terms of sex, they have a serious problem. Nudism is not about sex - plain and simple. There are those who can not see beyond their own limited thinking and will never attempt to understand a different way.
                    No-one is suggesting that nudism is about sex - I know it's not and I'm sure most other non-nudists know it's not. That's not what we were talking about. I was saying that non-nudists usually only see certain parts of the bodies of people of the opposite sex of a sexual partner, and then they tend to see them as a prelude to sexual activity . It is therefore unsurprising that non-nudists see a far stronger association between nudity and sex than nudists do. But that doesn't mean they're wrong or that they should all become nudists.

                    Many people believe that the alignment of the stars, moon, and sun have an effect on human emotions. The setting sun can have an effect to encourage sexual activity and therefore people can and will associate the setting sun with sex.
                    Sorry, but that's fantasy land thinking. If I show a man in the street a picture of a sunset or the alignment of the heavenly bodies and ask him if that arouses an interest in sex in him, he's going to think I'm nuts. If I show him a picture of a topless young woman he'll also think I'm nuts - but for asking the question in the first place! Bared female breasts and other parts of the anatomy are always going to be perceived as infinitely more sexual than sunsets or the moon.

                    Stu

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
                      Sanslines

                      This thread was started because a very small number of women in Sweden have decided that they think females using public swimming pools should be allowed to be topless when doing so. All swimming pools have rules to protect safety and prevent annoyances, and the women referred to are taking issue with what those rules say. I can’t fathom why you think I am suggesting diverting resources away from international terrorism or organised crime when we are talking about dress codes in a swimming pool. If the women break the rules, they would be presumably asked to refrain from doing so or else leave. I don’t imagine the pool attendants would be calling in the FBI or SWAT teams to deal with them. Presumably, the fact that it is against the rules would mean that women wouldn't do it in the first place.
                      There is nothing unsafe about women swimming topless in a swimming pool anymore then it is unsafe for a male to swim topless in a swimming pool. The ONLY difference is that most, if not all, societies have grown to accept that men can swim topless in swimming pools. The same can not be said for women. At one point in history, men could not swim topless in swimming pools and the same justifications that you give were used in those days against men. If the situation is challenged and changed to the point where women will be more or less universally allowed to swim topless in swimming pools, then I can assure you that the world will not come to an end, the whole objecting hysteria leading up to the women swimming topless issue will go away, and only a few sour prudes will be left to continue to complain about it.


                      I have no problem with nudism - it's nudity I don't like. I consider topless women to be partly naked. I don't see it and I don't have to deal with it precisely because it's not allowed in the places I go to. And that includes public swimming pools.
                      You are just stating silly nonsense now. There can be no nudism without nudity and you know it so please let's not play semantics now.


                      Says you. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is no more valid than the opinions of non-nudists.


                      That's their choice. They are under no obligation to see the world from your perspective.
                      The same was said about slavery, rampant discrimination, and a whole host of other much more serious societal issues. Laws can and will change, and once society grows up, the whole fuss about topless swimming will most certainly go away. There are far more serious issues in this world to deal with rather then going hysterical and wasting valuable police resources on nonsense such as whether a woman swims topless in some swimming pool.


                      No-one is suggesting that nudism is about sex - I know it's not and I'm sure most other non-nudists know it's not. That's not what we were talking about. I was saying that non-nudists usually only see certain parts of the bodies of people of the opposite sex of a sexual partner, and then they tend to see them as a prelude to sexual activity . It is therefore unsurprising that non-nudists see a far stronger association between nudity and sex than nudists do. But that doesn't mean they're wrong or that they should all become nudists.
                      You fail to notice how no one is demanding that all women swim topless in swimming pools. The only issue concerns tolerance and acceptance of those who chose to do so. Those who chose to swim topless will most certainly not demand that all women swim topless. They are extending the courtesy of compassion, tolerance, and understanding, The same can not be said of those who demand that all women swim with tops on.

                      Sorry, but that's fantasy land thinking. If I show a man in the street a picture of a sunset or the alignment of the heavenly bodies and ask him if that arouses an interest in sex in him, he's going to think I'm nuts. If I show him a picture of a topless young woman he'll also think I'm nuts - but for asking the question in the first place! Bared female breasts and other parts of the anatomy are always going to be perceived as infinitely more sexual than sunsets or the moon.
                      You know all of this for fact? Have you ever considered that the type of individual that you will ask will be intolerant and closed minded? Perhaps the man that you ask is either too closed minded, immature, or crazy himself? Have you ever entertained this notion?

                      I honestly and sincerely hope that the Swedish women who want to swim topless do not give in to the status quo and use every means at their disposal to show how silly the whole issue of demanding that women swim with tops on is. For the sake of complete fairness, if women must keep their tops on, then so must men. Let's see how many men will enjoy swimming with tops on. Perhaps women need to demand this along with other means to ensure that man's modesty is preserved if this is what those misguided people are claiming when they demand that women keep their tops on.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There is nothing unsafe about women swimming topless in a swimming pool
                        I didn't say there was. I said, "All swimming pools have rules to protect safety and prevent annoyances..."

                        The ONLY difference is that most, if not all, societies have grown to accept that men can swim topless in swimming pools.
                        It's much wider than just swimming pools. It's the cultural attitudes which determine that male chests do not equate to female breasts.

                        men could not swim topless in swimming pools and the same justifications that you give were used in those days against men
                        Acceptance of certain things are culturally determined. Sometimes they change - I know that - but i would like to have a say in any such change and not have it imposed by a vocal minority.

                        If the situation is challenged and changed to the point where women will be more or less universally allowed to swim topless in swimming pools, then I can assure you that the world will not come to an end
                        I know the world won't come to an end, but it's a change I would prefer not to happen.

                        only a few sour prudes will be left to continue to complain about it.
                        That's a very rude way to describe people who happen to feel differently about something than you do. I would never dream of talking about nudists in such a way. That's not showing the respect you are asking to be shown to nudists.

                        You are just stating silly nonsense now. There can be no nudism without nudity and you know it so please let's not play semantics now.
                        This topic isn't about nudism - in fact, it has nothing to do with nudism. Women are free to be topless in nudist places, so we are talking about textile swimming pool sessions here. But you mentioned nudism when you said, " You don't like nudism - fine - you don't have to see it or deal with it.". Now I do visit public swimming pools and I don't want to see semi-nudity when I do.

                        The same was said about slavery, rampant discrimination, and a whole host of other much more serious societal issues. Laws can and will change, and once society grows up,
                        Slavery etc was not about society not being grown up. Likening dress requirements in public swimming pools to slavery is fatuous.

                        There are far more serious issues in this world to deal with rather then going hysterical and wasting valuable police resources on nonsense such as whether a woman swims topless in some swimming pool.
                        I agree. This has nothing to do with the police. You go to a swimming pool and you accept the rules. If you break the rules, you are asked to desist - or leave.

                        The only issue concerns tolerance and acceptance of those who chose to do so
                        That has to be balanced against the rights of those of us who find the sight of topless women in public swimming pools to be grotesque and offensive to be able to enjoy swimming free from such a sight. I am quite happy for pools to have separate women-only or even clothing-optional sessions, so long as I can enjoy sessions as I like them, too.

                        Have you ever considered that the type of individual that you will ask will be intolerant and closed minded? Perhaps the man that you ask is either too closed minded, immature, or crazy himself? Have you ever entertained this notion?
                        You are back to the "We're right and you're wrong" attitude - and that is just as intolerant as what you are accusing me of. Instead of labeling people who see things differently to yourself as "close minded, immature and crazy", why don't you accept their rights to live free from the sight of something they find revolting by offering a compromise like I have done in the form of separate sessions? But you don't do compromise, do you?

                        Stu

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "Slavery etc was not about society not being grown up. Likening dress requirements in public swimming pools to slavery is fatuous"


                          No, it isn't, Stu. It's about attitude toward, acceptance of, tolerance of, perception of, etc. The attitude when slavery was totally accepted, where people of color were not even considered "human" is all about how people "perceived" those of color and what is "taught", "socialized", "mentored", "allowed", "condoned" and so forth.

                          Topless women can become a part of our societal norm as top free men. Men became accepted .... women can too......and the day will be here when it will.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stu2630 View Post
                            I didn't say there was. I said, "All swimming pools have rules to protect safety and prevent annoyances..."
                            Life is full of annoyances. We all have to accept a certain degree of annoyances.

                            It's much wider than just swimming pools. It's the cultural attitudes which determine that male chests do not equate to female breasts.
                            We are talking about women's rights to swim topless in swimming pools. A right that already exists for men.

                            Acceptance of certain things are culturally determined. Sometimes they change - I know that - but i would like to have a say in any such change and not have it imposed by a vocal minority.

                            I know the world won't come to an end, but it's a change I would prefer not to happen.
                            In the grande scheme of life, there are far more serious things to prefer not to happen then whether a bunch of women want to go swimming without their tops on.

                            That's a very rude way to describe people who happen to feel differently about something than you do. I would never dream of talking about nudists in such a way. That's not showing the respect you are asking to be shown to nudists.
                            The difference is that the laws are not on the sides of nudists. Anyone can express opinions all that they want. The difference is that women are currently prevented from swimming topless in a swimming pool due to those who insist on dictating their agenda to others. These women are not insisting that every woman swim topless in the swimming pool. However, they are being dictated to and prevented from swimming topless from a group who want things done their way and are clearly intolerant of others who chose to do things a different way.

                            This topic isn't about nudism - in fact, it has nothing to do with nudism. Women are free to be topless in nudist places, so we are talking about textile swimming pool sessions here. But you mentioned nudism when you said, " You don't like nudism - fine - you don't have to see it or deal with it.". Now I do visit public swimming pools and I don't want to see semi-nudity when I do.
                            Then go to a swimming pool where you don't have to see it. Regardless of how many pools allow topless swimming, there will always be some pools availible for those who can't tolerate the sight of a woman's breasts.

                            Slavery etc was not about society not being grown up. Likening dress requirements in public swimming pools to slavery is fatuous.

                            I agree. This has nothing to do with the police. You go to a swimming pool and you accept the rules. If you break the rules, you are asked to desist - or leave.
                            Slavery and discrimination was about a very large group of people who objected to any changes and viewed slavery as perfectly normal. Slavery was challenged and changed by a small group who dared to stand up against the majority and work to change the public perception that slavery was fine. Concerning breaking the rules, if the rules are discriminatory, then you work to change them regardless of opposition. The principle is exactly the same. There will always be people who are afraid of any changes and wish to continue the status quo. There will always be some free thinking liberals who wish to think beyond the status quo and work to promote change for a better and more tolerant society.

                            That has to be balanced against the rights of those of us who find the sight of topless women in public swimming pools to be grotesque and offensive to be able to enjoy swimming free from such a sight. I am quite happy for pools to have separate women-only or even clothing-optional sessions, so long as I can enjoy sessions as I like them, too.
                            Everyone has rights, including those women who wish to be treated as equals and swim topfree in a swimming pool. If a person does not wish to change to at least tolerate topless swimming, then they either go to a designated pool which is not topfree or stay home. They have no right to deny topless swimming to women who chose to do so anymore then women who chose to swim topfree can demand that all women and men swim topfree. At least the topfree women are being reasonable. You are not.

                            You are back to the "We're right and you're wrong" attitude - and that is just as intolerant as what you are accusing me of. Instead of labeling people who see things differently to yourself as "close minded, immature and crazy", why don't you accept their rights to live free from the sight of something they find revolting by offering a compromise like I have done in the form of separate sessions? But you don't do compromise, do you?
                            I do not think that you realize just how much tolerance is extended to you in this forum. You know fully well that this is a nudist forum and you are also fully aware that some in this forum do not wish that you be here. Yet, you contiune to come here. I think that there is far more tolerance that is being extended to you here then you wish to extend to people in this forum. You are arguing from the 'you're right and I am wrong' argument that you accuse me of doing. I label people according to what the facts dictate. Those who will not tolerate women (under any circumstances) who wish to swim topfree in any pool are closed minded, intolerant and discriminatory. You know that you have more rights then any nudist and yet you continue to refuse to compromise. The compromise is very simple. Allow women to swim topfree in a swimming pool. Those women will compromise with you by welcoming you and accepting that you might not wish to swim topfree in a swimming pool. That is your right and you are being accepted for it. Why can't you reciprocate? You obviously can not. Your so called compromises allow or give nothing as you want to dictate policies and rules according to your own beliefs and definitions. If you were so willing to compromise, then you would give in a bit by allowing women to swim topfree in a swimming pool. You clearly want things done on your terms only.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Beautiful stated, Sanslines!

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