Bad nude news in Germany

[Bob S.]

Two stories about nudists in Germany being affected by German Muslims and Muslim immigrants is looking bad.

In the first story, six German Muslim men threatened and insulted a group of nudists at a pool. They even spat at the women and children for being naked.

In the second story, the residents of a nudist park in Germany have been told they will not be able to use their lake to skinny dip as a refugee center that will to house over 100 Muslim men across the lake.

Bob S.

[Guest]

This is just the beginning of what will likely be a more significant trend against all free thinking people, regardless of their appreciation for nude recreation. It's extremely unfortunate, but this place needs to take this threat seriously. I would press charges against all of them, and lock them up before they follow through on their threat. Sad...

[Agde]

Let's be very clear. Far and away the vast majority of migrants to Germany respect the culture they are joining. The "gang" of young Muslim men in the first story were fluent German-speakers -- this is about radicalization of a specific minority group of Germans. A serious but distinct problem. Part of the proposed response are multi-lingual migrant life-guards. The overly-cautious "authorities" in the second story are under great pressure to find a better solution for their worry about "potential incidents." It is doubtful that the residents of the "refugee center" sought the extra caution or are likely to risk being involved in any "incidents." The cited incidents in Germany are also serious, but are again part of a "gang" mentality that is not normal or acceptable in either German or migrant cultures. Just as naturists are often lumped with swingers in rags like the Mail, let's not fall for their insinuation that migrants/refugees are killers and rapists.

[Bob S.]

No one is talking about killers or rapists, just groups who disagree with nudism and, in one instance, a group of thugs who have no compunction to let their opinions be known in a bad way. I do hope there will be a solution to the nude use of the lake. However, I would recommend that the authorities explain to the migrants that they are no longer in an Arab country and the social mores will be different and they must learn to live with it. I also hope the authorities understand that facet of life and actually tell all migrants they must learn the ways of the areas of the places to which they are migrating and not try to change them.

Bob S.

[Agde]

Thanks, Bob, for the thoughtful reply. Migration, as demo'd by Brexit, is a sensitive issue here in Europe. I was just reacting because I work with migrants and get annoyed when the shrill voices of British tabloids stir things up for a few extra coppers of profit.

Overall, we all, including migrants, agree with your point about adapting to the host culture. Finding the mutually agreed common ground between personal freedom and social limits to tolerance is what democracies are all about. As a naturist visitor, I understand that I must respect the common ground established by each US community, and not insist on importing French values, just as Americans reciprocate when visiting France.

That said, when migrants are accepted into a community, their values can change the arithmetic of common ground. What doesn't change however are the institutions that establish and enforce community standards. This is a question of the larger issue of political process and legitimacy, not of individual or community choice. So migrants, like everyone, need to work through those institutions, not resort to gang-style intimidation. As an immigrant, I would be free to promote my naturist values. If, however, I resort to aggression and intimidation, I will face the penalty.

The flip-side, as America knows, is that migrants can also bring amazing positive energy to any culture. Imagine America without its Irish, Iranian and Indian immigrants -- just to mention some of the I's. Values may be challenged and re-examined, and are richer for it. The essential thing is to hold fast to core democratic values of thorough public discussion and participation. The German naturist community, for instance, has many long-established and well-proven values that are part of the fabric of German society. Migrants don't "learn to live with" these so much as to learn to appreciate them.

I know this is a somewhat idyllic argument, and that ghetto-ization of recent migrants can be problematic. Radicalization and violence cannot be tolerated. But America has been through this. Remember when being Irish and Catholic and running for president was a huge issue? I just have confidence in democracy. It takes time and it's not pretty but...

Lots of bumps along the road, but the values of naturism will prevail because they make sense (are "self-evident"?) in egalitarian democracies based on respect for the basic personal sovereignty of each citizen -- not because migrants change their own personal values, not because naturists won the debate, and/or not because authorities enforce naturist values as new or historically-acquired rights.