Let's face the reality that organized religion is the enemy of nudism.

[Mosquito_Bait]

I'm not saying that nudism is fundamentally incompatible with the Bible or any other religious texts. I'm simply voicing my observation that the major organized religions are instruments of the most conservative forces in virtually all societies, and these conservative forces often cloak their objections to nudism in religion.

I acknowledge that there are a few religious belief systems that seem compatible with or even encourage nudism. Jainism and Wicca come to mind, but these are not religions of the elite and powerful, and their character would probably change if they ever did become religions of the elite and powerful.

I try to be tolerant of those around me who delude themselves into believing they have an invisible magic sky friend looking out for them. I realize that some rely on this belief to cope with their life situations. I generally remain tolerant when they talk about their "faith", but my tolerance has its limits. I fully realize these people feel no inhibition in stomping on my rights when they believe their religion tells them to do so.

[nudeyooper]

Is organized religion against nudity or just perceived as being against it? I remember a discussion on Sirius XM's The Catholic Channel that suggested that there is nothing inherently wrong with nudity and that it is not sinful to look at pictures of naked people. It is what we do while naked or looking at those pictures that counts and what thoughts come of our actions. I live as naked as my community will let me, which is pretty much just inside my home. I pray daily, and attend church at least weekly though most recently virtually instead of in person, and I would welcome more opportunities to live clothes free.

[Mosquito_Bait]

I accept the argument that the actual text of the Bible provides no good basis for opposition to public nudity. This does not change the fact that fundamentalist Christians have been the loudest opponents of nude beaches. It comes down to the fact that conservative forces co-opt churches to serve their own interests. They take advantage of the church by linking opposition to nude beaches to a notion of morality as defined by their interpretation of church teachings. This is an observation that comes directly from real life experience. Further reinforcing this is the observation that half the threads on this section of the forum are attempts to reconcile social nudity with church teachings. Such arguments wouldn't be necessary if church teachings weren't seen as a real threat.

This is my 1000th post on this forum. Do I win anything?

[Mosquito_Bait]

I just saw the reward for my 1000th post. My member rating went from Bronze to Silver!

[newton]

Congratulations Thanks for all of your comments and keep posting.

[Mosquito_Bait]

For those of us who have given up on the idea that there is a god, there are two questions that remain regarding the value of religion.

1. Does belonging to a church/synagogue/mosque make a better man.
2. Is adherence to religious beliefs benign.

Regarding the first question, I know many fine people who are fundamentalist Christians, but I can't ignore the stories that I see in the media about pedophile priests. Pope Benedict even argued that the problems in the priesthood were due to problems in society at large, which suggests that he doesn't expect priests to meet a moral standard any higher than would be applied to a typical man on the street. This begs the question that if the church can't save the clergy, who can it save?

Regarding the second question, I know many people who rely on their religion beliefs as an emotional crutch. Prayer can be a form of meditation. Perhaps this is important for people who are in truly hopeless situations. At the same time, I am acutely aware of prejudices against gays and others who don't fit social norms that are justified based on interpretations of religious teachings. Beyond the United States, there are many parts of the world where religion is fueling armed conflicts.

I also wonder if the acceptance of religious beliefs at a young age serves as conditioning to reject science and accept political beliefs based on the desire to be accepted by family and friends as opposed to an objective evaluation of verifiable facts. I can't help but notice that the present political divide closely follows religious fault lines, and those who cry "fake news" in response to articles written by professional journalists working for mainstream media outlets often are religious fundamentalists.

[oldbob]

For those of us who have given up on the idea that there is a god, there are two questions that remain regarding the value of religion.

1. Does belonging to a church/synagogue/mosque make a better man.
2. Is adherence to religious beliefs benign.

Regarding the first question, I know many fine people who are fundamentalist Christians, but I can't ignore the stories that I see in the media about pedophile priests. Pope Benedict even argued that the problems in the priesthood were due to problems in society at large, which suggests that he doesn't expect priests to meet a moral standard any higher than would be applied to a typical man on the street. This begs the question that if the church can't save the clergy, who can it save?

Regarding the second question, I know many people who rely on their religion beliefs as an emotional crutch. Prayer can be a form of meditation. Perhaps this is important for people who are in truly hopeless situations. At the same time, I am acutely aware of prejudices against gays and others who don't fit social norms that are justified based on interpretations of religious teachings. Beyond the United States, there are many parts of the world where religion is fueling armed conflicts.

I also wonder if the acceptance of religious beliefs at a young age serves as conditioning to reject science and accept political beliefs based on the desire to be accepted by family and friends as opposed to an objective evaluation of verifiable facts. I can't help but notice that the present political divide closely follows religious fault lines, and those who cry "fake news" in response to articles written by professional journalists working for mainstream media outlets often are religious fundamentalists.

I'm guessing from what you wrote, that much of you exposure to religion, especially Christianity is what you read and hear in the media. The media only presents the most attention getting, often outrageous stories, oftentimes calling a person who has only a small following a "Christian Leader". The media only rarely report on what the leadership of the Mainline Protestant denominations, representing millions of members, say and do

To answer your first question, it depends on the church, synagogue, or mosque. I'll answer for myself, yes, being a member of a church has made me a far better person.

Regarding what you wrote about the second question, emotional crutches are sometimes needed and help people cope with bad situations. Being a member of a supportive community helps as well. There are some denominations and churches that accept everyone. My denomination has ordained as pastors, gay, lesbian,and transgender people. Other denominations have as well. If you're doing Christianity right, you aren't fuel or supporting armed conflicts.

Again, political beliefs line up a lot with the church/denominations one belongs to. There are a great many Christians on the left side of the political spectrum. You just don't hear much about them in the media.

To say that all Christians are gay hating, science denying, right wingers is like saying that all naturists are swinging pedophiles. Both are wrong.

[oldbob]

For those of us who have given up on the idea that there is a god, there are two questions that remain regarding the value of religion.

1. Does belonging to a church/synagogue/mosque make a better man.
2. Is adherence to religious beliefs benign.

Regarding the first question, I know many fine people who are fundamentalist Christians, but I can't ignore the stories that I see in the media about pedophile priests. Pope Benedict even argued that the problems in the priesthood were due to problems in society at large, which suggests that he doesn't expect priests to meet a moral standard any higher than would be applied to a typical man on the street. This begs the question that if the church can't save the clergy, who can it save?

Regarding the second question, I know many people who rely on their religion beliefs as an emotional crutch. Prayer can be a form of meditation. Perhaps this is important for people who are in truly hopeless situations. At the same time, I am acutely aware of prejudices against gays and others who don't fit social norms that are justified based on interpretations of religious teachings. Beyond the United States, there are many parts of the world where religion is fueling armed conflicts.

I also wonder if the acceptance of religious beliefs at a young age serves as conditioning to reject science and accept political beliefs based on the desire to be accepted by family and friends as opposed to an objective evaluation of verifiable facts. I can't help but notice that the present political divide closely follows religious fault lines, and those who cry "fake news" in response to articles written by professional journalists working for mainstream media outlets often are religious fundamentalists.

I'm guessing from what you wrote, that much of you exposure to religion, especially Christianity is what you read and hear in the media. The media only presents the most attention getting, often outrageous stories, oftentimes calling a person who has only a small following a "Christian Leader". The media only rarely report on what the leadership of the Mainline Protestant denominations, representing millions of members, say and do

To answer your first question, it depends on the church, synagogue, or mosque. I'll answer for myself, yes, being a member of a church has made me a far better person.

Regarding what you wrote about the second question, emotional crutches are sometimes needed and help people cope with bad situations. Being a member of a supportive community helps as well. There are some denominations and churches that accept everyone. My denomination has ordained as pastors, gay, lesbian,and transgender people. Other denominations have as well. If you're doing Christianity right, you aren't fuel or supporting armed conflicts.

Again, political beliefs line up a lot with the church/denominations one belongs to. There are a great many Christians on the left side of the political spectrum. You just don't hear much about them in the media.

To say that all Christians are gay hating, science denying, right wingers is like saying that all naturists are swinging pedophiles. Both are wrong.

[Mosquito_Bait]

^^ Though I can't claim that I was ever a devout believer, I was raised in the church and married in the church. My wife belonged to the same church. I used to be fairly involved in the church, but I stopped going to parish assembly meetings after a few screaming matches. I was for a time involved in a men's group associated with the church, and I again witnessed many heated arguments, one of which involved chairs being thrown. The big disagreements were always about money.

When my daughter was young, I would take her to Sunday school. I wanted her to have a connection to the church even if she wasn't a devout believer. One Sunday, she came out of class with a coloring page of Jonah and the Whale. I told her she didn't have to believe that story. She responded by saying, "What if I want to believe the story?" I thought to myself, "What am I doing!" She was being indoctrinated. I saw this as conditioning to believe things based on a desire to be accepted into a tribe rather than based on an objective evaluation of evidence.

I see conservative Christians denouncing as "fake news" any news article that conflicts with their political beliefs.regardless of the evidence supporting the article. I strongly suspect this grows out of accepting religious beliefs for which there is no credible evidence.

[nudeyooper]

The word is faith, a belief in something that can't be proven. There a millions of people who have no faith in a god or higher power who lead good and productive lives. They do; however, live by a code of behavior that is derived from religious beliefs and practices that go back several millennia. From a human standpoint, much of what we have been taught to believe makes absolutely no sense. Could the stories in our traditions be true? How is it that there are different versions written of the same event? Nobody can say with any certainty that they are or are not.

When it comes to nudity and religion, I find no conflict. I have chosen to believe some of what has been written as fact and some as only an illustration of how we should interact with each other and our Christian/Jewish/Muslim God. We have to keep an open mind. The Church, when the Christian Church was united, held some beliefs that science has proven were wrong. Who can know if that will happen again? We have evidence that living without clothing has both mental and physical health benefits. Perhaps more study will change the minds of those who object to being naked based on their religious beliefs.

[Mosquito_Bait]

The word is faith, a belief in something that can't be proven. ...

I have had this conversation before, and I find it very frustrating. The reason it can't be proven is so obvious to me, and I just can't understand why others don't see it.

It can't be proven because it is fake.

[oldbob]

I have had this conversation before, and I find it very frustrating. The reason it can't be proven is so obvious to me, and I just can't understand why others don't see it.

It can't be proven because it is fake.

Something happened in the First Century CE that led to the spread of Christianity in spite of the dangers of being a Christian. One would have to conjure up a pretty elaborate conspiracy theory to explain why people accepted it. And they wrote about it, which is why we have the new testament. Is Socrates real, or did Plato make him up?

It doesn't matter if anyone else believes as I do, but I'm glad that there are many people who do.

[Mosquito_Bait]

Something happened in the First Century CE that led to the spread of Christianity in spite of the dangers of being a Christian. One would have to conjure up a pretty elaborate conspiracy theory to explain why people accepted it. And they wrote about it, which is why we have the new testament. Is Socrates real, or did Plato make him up?

It doesn't matter if anyone else believes as I do, but I'm glad that there are many people who do.

The pivotal event that explains why Christianity is the dominant religion of northern Europe and the Americas occurred in the Fourth Century CE. Emperor Constantine won an important battle after having his troops paint on their shields the Greek letters Xi Rho, which stood for Jesus Christ. Emperor Constantine subsequently converted to Christianity and the rest of the empire followed. If not for that, Christianity might have remained a minor sect and the deities of the dominant religion might have remained the Greco-Roman pantheon.

[newton]

Perhaps it is all a fluke of history--but then again, perhaps it is not. In a sense, anyone's position on that depends on what they have faith in.

[Bob S.]

"I acknowledge that there are a few religious belief systems that seem compatible with or even encourage nudism. Jainism and Wicca come to mind, but these are not religions of the elite and powerful, and their character would probably change if they ever did become religions of the elite and powerful."

In other words, Mosquito, what you are saying is that it isn't organized religion itself that is the enemy of nudism but its leadership that makes the rules that must be followed. Mind you, there are nudist church services that exist within nudist parks and resorts, so their organized religion isn't an enemy of nudism.

I actually think aspects of religious tenet follows societies' ways. Nudity was more common in early Christianity, particularly in certain jobs, but over the centuries, as clothing became easier to make and cheaper to purchase, the religious laws had more people remain dressed.

Bob S.