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Religion is a fine thing, but don't let it control your life.

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  • Religion is a fine thing, but don't let it control your life.

    Religion is a fine thing, but don't let it control your life.


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  • #2
    Religion is one of the worst things invented by Man. Money is the other.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by EltonJ View Post
      Religion is one of the worst things invented by Man. Money is the other.
      Neither are inherently bad. What people do with them is can be bad. We live in a society and both religion and money give us means to deal with one another. Society requires rules. It is not money that is the root of all evil but the love of money and the quest for such that puts love for one anothe aside. Religion gives us rules to live by and even primitive societies have rules and beliefs in a supreme ruler.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by nudeyooper View Post

        .... Religion gives us rules to live by and even primitive societies have rules and beliefs in a supreme ruler.
        I should take my rules to live by from Christianity?

        Okay, I'm comfortable with not selling my daughter to be a temple prostitute, but I wouldn't kill my son even if he was stubborn or rebellious.

        I wouldn't own slaves even if they were from another nation, and I wouldn't wish for a person to be stoned to death even if they committed adultery.

        My observation is that our social rules come from those around us. If we are religious, we then cherry pick the teachings of our religion to reinforce those social rules.

        Essentially, we don't take our social rules from our religion. We project our social rules onto our religion.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mosquito_Bait View Post

          I should take my rules to live by from Christianity?

          Okay, I'm comfortable with not selling my daughter to be a temple prostitute, but I wouldn't kill my son even if he was stubborn or rebellious.

          I wouldn't own slaves even if they were from another nation, and I wouldn't wish for a person to be stoned to death even if they committed adultery.

          My observation is that our social rules come from those around us. If we are religious, we then cherry pick the teachings of our religion to reinforce those social rules.

          Essentially, we don't take our social rules from our religion. We project our social rules onto our religion.
          No you need not take your rules from Christianity. Those situations you just mentioned actually come from Old Testament Judaism. The rules that we live by have been around for several millenia and have been derived from the basic laws which are often called the Ten Commandments. However, religion and one that is different from the one or two that is prominent in a region has been a catalyst for violence and violation of the law or rules.
          You would not sell your daughter, but other fathers have. You would not kill your son, but other fathers have and done so in the name of honor. Our culture does not allow that.
          You would not own slaves, but many people in this world are owned, and sadly many of those owners have called themselves Christians. You would not stone someone to death, but do you condone the death penalty?
          Societies have rules, and societies change attitudes and with those changes rules can change. Did those ten commandments actually come from God, or did man invent a god and a religion to go with that god to justify rules for the society of the day? We really don't know, but our rules come from the ancients, and they were believers.

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          • #6

            "Essentially, we don't take our social rules from our religion. We project our social rules onto our religion.."

            Mosquito, it is a much more nuanced dance between social customs and rules and religion. They both influence each other to create societies and how they evolve over time. As time goes by, certain factors work on one aspect or the other and certain rules may either be reinforced or dropped due to not only evolving thinking by the citizenry, but also due to the opulence or destitution of the society. You can't simply think of rules put down thousands of years ago and base them on your own modern thinking in a first world country that has more access to wealth, knowledge, and freedom than those people did in the past. This is why less advancement is done in modern day societies that are still impoverished or where the citizenry have less access to wealth, knowledge, and freedom.

            And by the way, regarding the stoning of one's children, it required the parents to bring the adult child to the elders and have them decide if his behaviour is worthy of a death sentence,or as it says in Deut 21:20 "he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard." After that, if convicted, the "child" would be put to death by the whole of the city, not just the parents.

            Bob S.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nudeyooper View Post

              No you need not take your rules from Christianity. Those situations you just mentioned actually come from Old Testament Judaism. The rules that we live by have been around for several millenia and have been derived from the basic laws which are often called the Ten Commandments. However, religion and one that is different from the one or two that is prominent in a region has been a catalyst for violence and violation of the law or rules.
              ...
              This is exactly what I was referring to regarding cherry picking sections of religious texts that match our present societal values, discarding the rest, and then claiming our societal values come from our religion. You are willing to discard the entire Old Testament, but then you pick the Ten Commandments out of the trash bin.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bob S. View Post
                Mosquito, it is a much more nuanced dance between social customs and rules and religion. They both influence each other to create societies and how they evolve over time. As time goes by, certain factors work on one aspect or the other and certain rules may either be reinforced or dropped due to not only evolving thinking by the citizenry, but also due to the opulence or destitution of the society. ...
                So no religion is an "Eternal Truth". Religious teachings get molded as a society evolves.

                You can claim the influence runs in both directions, but I don't see it that way. We not only stop following the religious teaching, we ignore the fact that the teaching ever existed.

                Prime examples are slavery and execution by stoning for adultery. We don't do that anymore, and the pastor in your church probably never discusses it.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mosquito_Bait View Post


                  You can claim the influence runs in both directions, but I don't see it that way. We not only stop following the religious teaching, we ignore the fact that the teaching ever existed.

                  Prime examples are slavery and execution by stoning for adultery. We don't do that anymore, and the pastor in your church probably never discusses it.
                  That may be true of some people, but certainly not all. Many of us follow the basic teachings of our faith to the best of our abilities. We often stumble and question what has been given to us. The given to us is a key component of what we believe. My ancestors were Roman Catholic from Germany and Poland. They brought their faith to the United States with them and passed it down. I did the same with my children who have given up on religion. Church is not important to them, but living the life of loving, generous, human beings is. They still know the teaching existed.
                  It is true that I never heard a pastor mentioning stoning an adulterer or advocated slavery. They are not something that we do within the law in the United States, but in parts of the world where the religion practiced is even more strict than here, slavery does exist, and family members are executed because they brought disgrace to the family or disobeyed a law or custom of their faith. And it is done in the name of God and the belief a religion has given them.
                  You can choose to believe that religion has an influence on our lives, or not to believe. It really does not matter until what you believe brings harm to other human beings. So, If you do not want religion to control your life, don't let it. For many of us it is a very good thing.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nudeyooper View Post
                    That may be true of some people, but certainly not all. Many of us follow the basic teachings of our faith to the best of our abilities. We often stumble and question what has been given to us. The given to us is a key component of what we believe. My ancestors were Roman Catholic from Germany and Poland. They brought their faith to the United States with them and passed it down. ...
                    Are you familiar with the expression "Cafeteria Catholic". Consider your practices regarding birth control and whether that was consistent with Catholic teaching. This is private matter, so I don't want you to feel any pressure to discuss that here.

                    Please understand that I'm not trying to be judgemental. I'm simply noting that we tend to take our code of conduct from our society and then look for reinforcement within our religion.

                    https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-...teria-catholic

                    "A cafeteria Catholic is typically defined as one who picks and chooses what Catholic teaching he wants to believe. Catholics are not free to choose which teachings (on faith and morals) to obey.

                    "Even when the Church has not spoken on a matter of faith or morals definitively (infallibly), the faithful must give “a religious submission of the intellect and will” to its teachings (CIC 752)."

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                    • #11

                      "So no religion is an "Eternal Truth". Religious teachings get molded as a society evolves."

                      Religious teachings and religious rules and behaviours are much different. Prime example was the sacrifice of animals, especially for Passover. The rite was required when the Temple existed, but after that Temple was burned, the practiced al but stopped as there was no place to offer the sacrifice.

                      Punishments are also in this line of thinking. There are eternal truths and some things are bad and some good. The punishments for the bad behaviours do change, but they still remain bad and outside the teachings of the certain religions. Yes, there are Cafeteria Catholics (and whatever alliterative term you can come up with for the other religions) but those practices have no bearing on the Eternal Truth and it is the debate over what is the Eternal Truth that drives some of the religious divisions today.

                      Getting back to the picture in the OP, why even go to the sea if you are going to wear those kinds of clothes?

                      Bob S.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bob S. View Post
                        "So no religion is an "Eternal Truth". Religious teachings get molded as a society evolves."

                        Religious teachings and religious rules and behaviours are much different. Prime example was the sacrifice of animals, especially for Passover. The rite was required when the Temple existed, but after that Temple was burned, the practiced al but stopped as there was no place to offer the sacrifice.

                        Punishments are also in this line of thinking. There are eternal truths and some things are bad and some good. The punishments for the bad behaviours do change, but they still remain bad and outside the teachings of the certain religions. Yes, there are Cafeteria Catholics (and whatever alliterative term you can come up with for the other religions) but those practices have no bearing on the Eternal Truth and it is the debate over what is the Eternal Truth that drives some of the religious divisions today.

                        Getting back to the picture in the OP, why even go to the sea if you are going to wear those kinds of clothes?

                        Bob S.

                        Religious teachings and religious rules and behaviors are not supposed to be different. Religion is supposed to be an eternal truth. If you modify the rules based on evolving cultural norms, then you are right back in the Cafeteria Catholic situation.

                        Regarding why the lady in the photo is dressed that way, I suppose she just wanted to go to the beach with her family but was too caught up in her religion to dress in a practical manner.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mosquito_Bait View Post

                          Regarding why the lady in the photo is dressed that way, I suppose she just wanted to go to the beach with her family but was too caught up in her religion to dress in a practical manner.
                          Caught up in her religion, or living within the norms of her family and community? Wearing less could bring on banishment, physical harm, and possibly death. Her community may be one that gives women almost no rights. We do not know what she believes, or even if she believes in what she does. People often do what they do, dress the way they dress, and act a certain way out of fear. For many of us, community standards dictate. When I go to the beach, I would prefer to dress in the most practical manner. Community standards suggest that on the beaches available to me some clothing must be worn.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nudeyooper View Post
                            Caught up in her religion, or living within the norms of her family and community? Wearing less could bring on banishment, physical harm, and possibly death. Her community may be one that gives women almost no rights. We do not know what she believes, or even if she believes in what she does. People often do what they do, dress the way they dress, and act a certain way out of fear. For many of us, community standards dictate. When I go to the beach, I would prefer to dress in the most practical manner. Community standards suggest that on the beaches available to me some clothing must be worn.
                            I have heard it claimed that the Quran requires only that women dress modestly, but that doesn't seem consistent with the actual text.

                            [Quran 24:31] And tell the believing women to lower their glances and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment [i.e., beauty] except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their women, that which their right hands possess [i.e., slaves], or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allāh in repentance, all of you, O Believers, that you might succeed.

                            I suppose this is a case of religious leaders running amok and establishing their own strict interpretation, which then becomes the societal norm.

                            Regarding the woman in the photo, I am reminded of the adult elephant held with a light-duty chain to a chair. The elephant has been restrained this way since he was a baby, and it doesn't occur to him that he could easily break the chain or simply drag the chair.

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                            • #15
                              Actually, yes, I still believe that Religion could hold back someone from the truth. The bible says that the body is a temple. Jesus mentioned this analogy while he was alive. "destroy this temple, and I'll raise it up again in three days." Paul also states that the body is a temple.

                              Is the modesty standards of some religions irrational? Yes. I believe that the Mormon standards of modesty is irrational. Muslim standards are also just as irrational. It is possible to be nude and regard your body as a temple. The LDS temples aren't covered, in fact most of them have lighting on them so that they can be seen. So what does that mean for our own bodies? Which are temples?

                              I believe we are getting to intent here. Nudists enjoy being naked (at least I hope so, I enjoy it). They do it in a way that is modest. They don't do it to draw attention to themselves. People that go to clothing optional resorts often just do it because they want to. I'm pretty sure that people judge unrighteously because of their beliefs. I know I did, lots of times.

                              I used to think nudity was bad. Again nutured to think that way, and not by nature. I would judge other people by their state of dress, and have unreasonable fantasies. When I came to nudism as a way of being free, suddenly I was looking at nudity from a different angle. I even convinced my wife to adopt the lifestyle (and we had to explain to Jesus that we weren't doing it for pornography either). I have a poor attitude towards religion. It's my hope that everyone righteous everywhere (including Muslims, Jainists, Buddhists, and Hindus, and those of other faiths) will come to know the truth about religion and how it's holding them back.

                              And I hope nudists everywhere understand what a gift Freedom is, and I hope that they pass it on to the next generation.

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